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What is Surplus EXP and 48-hour cooldown?Follow

#52 Aug 21 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Are we mad because the Surplus is gonna force hardcore gamers to grind on reduced XP to get to endgame and get all the fat lootz? Or because they are not allowing us to do quests daily with alot of XP so all the causals can get to endgame and get all the fat lootz? Are the PS3 owners secretly laughing at us??! Because when the game comes out they won't have to deal with this!

In all seriousness. Surplus is not so bad. I played Allods Online it had Fatigue. I am sure it is not going to be as drastic as it may seem to be in beta. And like someone said it's almost like WoW's rested XP. You just don't have to go into or log out of an Inn to get it. As long as the scaling is right it shouldn't be a problem. It's not like its taking earned XP. Let's be grateful we wont have to see "Level Down"
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#53 Aug 21 2010 at 2:23 AM Rating: Good
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Puppy1 wrote:
I was reading this thread and i got thinking. If we all here developed a game, or even just a few of us, and we put our own ideas in it. Our own thoughts on how things should work.. well not even that. What if we wanted to see how things would work if we set up a specific way of doing things. So we all think HEY! what a great idea! lets do it! And before it even launched, before people even tried it, they were saying how horrible it is of an idea it was without really even knowing the finer points to it.
Would we:
1) Automaticly drop said idea just to make them happy after spending a few years with the idea?
2) Just do what we want to do because it took so long to make? Costly too..
3) Test it out on a Huge number of people for a while, make adjustments to it as we go in order to compromise with what we and our players want?
Please try to answer seriously. Think about it before you answer

If anybody can make this a poll, id be intrested in seeings peoples responce

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 4:05am by Puppy1


I would say 3... But I can see your point here. Thing is, since I'm not in beta I don't really know how restricting the choices SE has made so far really are. Depending on how much EXP is lost the whole "Surplus" thing could be a way of keeping it even, kind of like WoW's rested EXP status deal. Depending on how long you don't play a character while resting in a city you gain a small EXP bonus. The difference with SE's is that you get a natural boost in your EXP for awhile if you don't play a specific job or profession for extended periods. Basically, you could log in, play for a couple hours and get done what you would have in an entire day's worth of playing.

So say after the "boost", the penalty kicks in and your EXP rate drops to say... 70% of what you were originally making. Personally I could be alright with that. But if it chops your EXP by a whopping 50% then it's really unfair.
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#54 Aug 21 2010 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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SamusKnight wrote:
Puppy1 wrote:
I was reading this thread and i got thinking. If we all here developed a game, or even just a few of us, and we put our own ideas in it. Our own thoughts on how things should work.. well not even that. What if we wanted to see how things would work if we set up a specific way of doing things. So we all think HEY! what a great idea! lets do it! And before it even launched, before people even tried it, they were saying how horrible it is of an idea it was without really even knowing the finer points to it.
Would we:
1) Automaticly drop said idea just to make them happy after spending a few years with the idea?
2) Just do what we want to do because it took so long to make? Costly too..
3) Test it out on a Huge number of people for a while, make adjustments to it as we go in order to compromise with what we and our players want?
Please try to answer seriously. Think about it before you answer

If anybody can make this a poll, id be intrested in seeings peoples responce

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 4:05am by Puppy1


I would say 3... But I can see your point here. Thing is, since I'm not in beta I don't really know how restricting the choices SE has made so far really are. Depending on how much EXP is lost the whole "Surplus" thing could be a way of keeping it even, kind of like WoW's rested EXP status deal. Depending on how long you don't play a character while resting in a city you gain a small EXP bonus. The difference with SE's is that you get a natural boost in your EXP for awhile if you don't play a specific job or profession for extended periods. Basically, you could log in, play for a couple hours and get done what you would have in an entire day's worth of playing.

So say after the "boost", the penalty kicks in and your EXP rate drops to say... 70% of what you were originally making. Personally I could be alright with that. But if it chops your EXP by a whopping 50% then it's really unfair.


I haven't seen it, but people have pushed it to its limit and said it can be as bad as only getting 10% of what you normally would earn...

And I agree with the suspicions that it's something they have to do nowadays because jerkoffs get too addicted and neglect their real lives or another way to fight RMT...maybe a bit of both...which really just makes things annoyingly complicated for us as well...if they find the balance I'll still be playing though...

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 4:31am by TwistedOwl
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#55 Aug 21 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Default
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i guess we will just have to wait til open beta to see if it isnt as bad as people make it seem. -_-
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#56 Aug 21 2010 at 3:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just think that penalizing your players for -not- having ADD is absurd.
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#57 Aug 21 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
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Oh come on guys! its just beta!! We got to trust SE! Long live SE!

/end sarcasm
#58 Aug 21 2010 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know how bad the exp drop with surplus is as I didn't get a chance to play alpha or beta yet but maybe it DOES indeed work like rested EXP in WoW as someone said before.
Maybe the Exp you get with surplus IS the ammount of Exp SE intended and the rest is a bonus.

Although you can't change all your stats when you change jobs it's still more than you can do in FFXI. In FFXI Stats are fixed and the only way to improve them is with gear.
It's also logical that a student of magical arts won't get the strengh of a greataxe wielding warrior in just a moment.
So that system does make sense to me.
If you want to be the best at one thing you'll have to make cuts at other things. You can't have everything.

It's right though that you shouldn't be punished for playing just one job. If SE really gets alot of negative feedback for surplus Exp maybe they could change it to rested Exp. So players that change to other jobs more often will get some bonus Exp and the ones who rather stick with one job get normal Exp without any penalty.

On the 48h cooldown for leves. Don't forget that SE said they want to keep that cooldown but they might change the system so these 48 hours make more sense. This cooldown IS an attempt from SE to encourage party play so I'd expect that party play will get a bonus besides being able to do more than 8 leves in the 48 hours.

Also let's not forget that this is still a beta version of the finished product and changes will happen even after release. I for my part don't worry that much as I'm pretty sure they'll work it out somehow.
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#59 Aug 21 2010 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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Back in XI there were people who liked to level more than one job at a time, me on the other hand liked to focus on one at a time. Why? Various reasons, inventory space and wanting to focus on learning one job at a time were the two major reasons. I have crappy memory and having to focus on too many things at once screws me. I don't think there should be any kind of penalty on playing just one job at any given moment. The ability to let people choose when they want to switch is a major concern for me. No person should be restricted for wanting to level only one job at a time, plain and simple.

Quote:
But about that surplus thing, how badly are you penalized? Normally you get like 100% EXP... How much do you still receive after that?


I'd like to know the answer to this as well. Getting any cut in EXP seems stupid to me.

As for the stat allocation, like I said in another thread:

Quote:
If that were the case and you could only reassign a certain percentage of your stats every two hours I would assume that they would implement something that would allow you to reassign them all, like in your moghouse or some other NPC. I believe it's a good system though, being able to switch out all your stats in the field would cause some problems wouldn't it? What this does, I think, is allow you to switch to a different class for emergencies. Like a healer disconnecting and not coming back so someone can switch to one, be it slightly gimp, to keep the group going or something.


Not being able to reassign ALL stats while not in the field seems awful restrictive to me. Mikhalia hit the nail on the head. To me these restrictions seem to contradict each other. To me it seems like Square is outright trying to punish min/maxers. I'm not one myself but this seems like a very wrong way to go about doing it, then again this is Square we are talking about here. They try to fix one problem and create another.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 5:34am by CupDeNoodles
#60 Aug 21 2010 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
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I am curious if any who reads the japanese forums can post what the japanese players are thinking of surplus xp?

If they are loving it, then chances of it changing before or even after release are pretty nil :(
#61 Aug 21 2010 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't heard anything about surplus exp before so help me out here...

Is there any information to lead us to believe that this is not just a Beta implementation for people to try different things? If someone can direct me no an anouncement on this I would appreciate it.

When does this come into effect? 4 hours in the same class, 24 hours? How long does it take to reset the exp gain?

And in my opinion there is an easy way to still have a perfect build whith more than 1 class, just make any other classes DoL or DoH.
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#62 Aug 21 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
As for the stat allocation, like I said in another thread:

Quote:
If that were the case and you could only reassign a certain percentage of your stats every two hours I would assume that they would implement something that would allow you to reassign them all, like in your moghouse or some other NPC. I believe it's a good system though, being able to switch out all your stats in the field would cause some problems wouldn't it? What this does, I think, is allow you to switch to a different class for emergencies. Like a healer disconnecting and not coming back so someone can switch to one, be it slightly gimp, to keep the group going or something.


Not being able to reassign ALL stats while not in the field seems awful restrictive to me. Mikhalia hit the nail on the head. To me these restrictions seem to contradict each other. To me it seems like Square is outright trying to punish min/maxers. I'm not one myself but this seems like a very wrong way to go about doing it, then again this is Square we are talking about here. They try to fix one problem and create another.


See, and this is me trying to be reasonable in the face of SE being unreasonable...

Even if there was a MH and I had to go back to town and I can do a full stat dump there and reallocate my stats, I'D BE FINE WITH THAT.

Seriously, ideally I'd like to be able to play the game any way I want to but I'm willing to set that aside.

Do you want to penalize me for jumping around too much and you want me to focus on one class at a time, so you limit how I can reallocate stats? Fine, I'll play that way. I'm fine with this.
Do you want to penalize me for playing one class too much and you want me to multiclass and you're going to dock XP if I stay on one class too long? Fine, let me switch my stats around and I'll play as many classes as you want me to.

I am perfectly willing to change the way I play if SE doesn't want me to play a certain way. Many people would not even be willing to do this, but fine, I am.

But I don't get the point of punishing me for playing ANY WAY. There is no playstile I can come up with that I will not get somehow penalized for.
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#63 Aug 21 2010 at 3:52 AM Rating: Decent
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You shouldn't have to plan ahead for that one hybrid class you're going to make later...if I think it would be cool to mix pugilist with conjurer/thaumaturge ...I still want to have loads of dex/str/vit on pug and int/mnd/pie with the other 2...if I keep my stats balanced, I'm gimped when I level all 3 of those jobs individually...

I think I should be able to have an optimal stat setup for when I level pug, another for thm & conj...and yet another for whatever hybrid monstrosity I come up with between the 3(maybe a few different hybrid builds), then I'd really be versatile & kick ***...or do I ask for too much?


Yes, you are asking too much. This game basically lets you be almost everything you want, at once. There is no Mog House. You just change your weapon and that's it.

Also, I don't see why you "shouldn't have to plan ahead", why not? There are ways to counter this, too. Physical leves can level up much slower than skill ranks do, giving you more time to think about what you want to become.

You think you should be able to be a perfect pug, perfect tham and perfect conj all at once, and I think that is unbalanced.

You also think that you would be "gimp" if you lack in stats for one class. That does not make any sense, especially if there is any point of diminishing returns in place. If you lack 10 STR compared to that other PUG but you can play 95% effective conjurer and the PUG can not, which one of you is the gimp there?

You are not worse off if you lack 10 STR, if you have the whole world in the palm of your hands.

The mindset from XI is the only reason why people don't like this system. It is a brilliant concept.
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#64 Aug 21 2010 at 4:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
This game basically lets you be almost everything you want, at once. There is no Mog House. You just change your weapon and that's it.


XI let you be anything you want, so are you telling me that the trade off for not having to run back to your mog house is a restriction on what you want to level? Seems kinda retarded to me and I'd rather not be able to switch classes in the field at all and run back to an NPC to do it if that were the case.

Quote:
You think you should be able to be a perfect pug, perfect tham and perfect conj all at once, and I think that is unbalanced.


Like I said above and in a previous thread, I see how just changing it at will could be unbalanced in the field, anyone with half a brain could, but that shouldn't restrict someone from leveling what they want. I think being able to allocate only a certain percentage of stats in the field is fine, so long as I get to allocate ALL of them outside the field.

Quote:
You also think that you would be "gimp" if you lack in stats for one class. That does not make any sense, especially if there is any point of diminishing returns in place. If you lack 10 STR compared to that other PUG but you can play 95% effective conjurer and the PUG can not, which one of you is the gimp there?

You are not worse off if you lack 10 STR, if you have the whole world in the palm of your hands.


I agree with this to an extent but people should still be given the option to make the best if they so choose to without gimping everything else.

To me it seems simple, the ability to allocate ALL your stats while not in the field and instead of decreasing EXP after playing a certain class instead do what WoW does and have that sleep thing.
#65 Aug 21 2010 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
You shouldn't have to plan ahead for that one hybrid class you're going to make later...if I think it would be cool to mix pugilist with conjurer/thaumaturge ...I still want to have loads of dex/str/vit on pug and int/mnd/pie with the other 2...if I keep my stats balanced, I'm gimped when I level all 3 of those jobs individually...

I think I should be able to have an optimal stat setup for when I level pug, another for thm & conj...and yet another for whatever hybrid monstrosity I come up with between the 3(maybe a few different hybrid builds), then I'd really be versatile & kick ***...or do I ask for too much?


Yes, you are asking too much. This game basically lets you be almost everything you want, at once. There is no Mog House. You just change your weapon and that's it.

Also, I don't see why you "shouldn't have to plan ahead", why not? There are ways to counter this, too. Physical leves can level up much slower than skill ranks do, giving you more time to think about what you want to become.

You think you should be able to be a perfect pug, perfect tham and perfect conj all at once, and I think that is unbalanced.

You also think that you would be "gimp" if you lack in stats for one class. That does not make any sense, especially if there is any point of diminishing returns in place. If you lack 10 STR compared to that other PUG but you can play 95% effective conjurer and the PUG can not, which one of you is the gimp there?

You are not worse off if you lack 10 STR, if you have the whole world in the palm of your hands.

The mindset from XI is the only reason why people don't like this system. It is a brilliant concept.


I will have try it myself and see how it all works out at higher levels before I comment on it because it might be great, but it might not. I dunno yet.

The exp surplus thing however is bs any way you look at it. It is a stupid idea to begin with and even more so combined with the stat allocation system, like Mikhaila said, since they basically work against each other. Of course it might not be so bad, once again something that will have to be tested, but if people are getting up to 90% less exp for killing mobs on the class they enjoy playing, then SE have in my mind failed horribly on that point. That is something I don't even have to test the game to know.
#66 Aug 21 2010 at 4:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
XI let you be anything you want, so are you telling me that the trade off for not having to run back to your mog house is a restriction on what you want to level? Seems kinda retarded to me and I'd rather not be able to switch classes in the field at all and run back to an NPC to do it if that were the case.


What are you talking about? I'm talking about the Physical level system, not the surplus exp.

The trade-off for having the option to change your class anywhere is that your classes lose little of their efficiency. It is a balancing factor, not a punishment.

Quote:
I will have try it myself and see how it all works out at higher levels before I comment on it because it might be great, but it might not. I dunno yet.


Yes, that is the best way to go at it. It has the possibility of being a good system, and it has the possibility of being a bad system. That's what always happens when you try something new, and that's something we have to always live with.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:41am by Hyanmen
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#67 Aug 21 2010 at 4:43 AM Rating: Good
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To be honest, as much as I might not think the FFXI mindset (as called by other) as fare and enjoyable, it will always prevail.

Quote:
You also think that you would be "gimp" if you lack in stats for one class. That does not make any sense, especially if there is any point of diminishing returns in place. If you lack 10 STR compared to that other PUG but you can play 95% effective conjurer and the PUG can not, which one of you is the gimp there?


If I'm in a party as a PUG who is gonna care how good a CON I can be, what they want is to have the best available PUG because with the best members you will get more EXP/Hour. This can be as simple as taking a Taru BLM/WHM instead of a Galka but will still happen.
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#68 Aug 21 2010 at 4:55 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I just think that penalizing your players for -not- having ADD is absurd.


Oh phew, I was worried for nothing. Looks like I'm safe.
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#69 Aug 21 2010 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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What are you talking about? I'm talking about the Physical level system, not the surplus exp.

The trade-off for having the option to change your class anywhere is that your classes lose little of their efficiency. It is a balancing factor, not a punishment.


That is what I was talking about in the part you quoted. o_O

Correct me if I'm wrong but you can only allocate a certain percentage every 2 hours or something right? If that were the case you would have to wait awhile to switch out all your stats to where they would need to be to level your current job. Like switching the points from your STR to INT. Maybe I'm missing something here but again that seems kinda retarded to me.

What I was getting at is that I'd rather run to an NPC or moghouse, that isn't in the field, to switch them out all at once instead of only a certain percentage every 2 hours or so. I understand that it could be unbalancing if you were able to switch them out in the field.

The surplus EXP thing was just me rambling on.

#70 Aug 21 2010 at 5:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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If the problem is that SE doesn't want someone to switch from one maxed job to another out of town I am fine with that.
Keep the attribute system the way it is while out of town and let people change ALL attributes in town.

That would be better than FFXI's system.
#71 Aug 21 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If the problem is that SE doesn't want someone to switch from one maxed job to another out of town I am fine with that.
Keep the attribute system the way it is while out of town and let people change ALL attributes in town.

That would be better than FFXI's system.


Thank you, you said it better than I did. :P
#72 Aug 21 2010 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If I'm in a party as a PUG who is gonna care how good a CON I can be, what they want is to have the best available PUG because with the best members you will get more EXP/Hour. This can be as simple as taking a Taru BLM/WHM instead of a Galka but will still happen.


That is only if we are, for any given activity, only fighting against one mob type at time.

If we are, in a timespan of 6 different guildleves, fighting multiple mob types with each having their own weaknesses and strengths, whatever efficiency you'd lose by having balanced stats would quickly be offset by the fact that you could fight using the most efficient class for most monsters.

You example would work but there are no MP/HP limitations here. That is why people choose to invite taru over galka, not the INT stat.

Also, there would be no taru's in this game because that would be a gimp way to play your character. If someone has more INT than you, he also has less STR, making him more and more useless if he wanted to play a melee class. Nobody wants to restrict themselves like that.

The whole system takes min/maxing to a whole new level, which is what players need to adapt to. It offers a lot more than other games as far as strengthening your character goes for a minimal loss.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but you can only allocate a certain percentage every 2 hours or something right? If that were the case you would have to wait awhile to switch out all your stats to where they would need to be to level your current job. Like switching the points from your STR to INT. Maybe I'm missing something here but again that seems kinda retarded to me.


Why do you think there is a point "where they need to be"? The system is designed in a way that the optimal way to assign your stats is to allocate them evenly. Everyone will have evened out stats, no one cares if you are not perfectly optimal at all situations stat wise because it's not possible, and those who have optimal stats for only one class are gimps in 9 out of 10 situations anyway.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 11:34am by Hyanmen
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#73 Aug 21 2010 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
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Just a few notes about surplus XP.

1. We don't really know how badly this affects gameplay yet. A lot of people in beta say they leveled up just fine with surplus xp, while others said they couldn't level at all. It's just another mechanic that needs tweaking for sure.

2. people are basing their assumptions of surplus XP on beta leveling experience, where we were getting obscene amounts of xp per kill. People were getting to lvl 15 in a couple of hours. I'm willing to bet it will take much longer to reach the point of surplus xp in retail.
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#74 Aug 21 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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Everyone will have evened out stats, no one cares if you are not perfectly optimal at all situations stat wise because it's not possible, and those who have optimal stats for only one class are gimps in 9 out of 10 situations anyway.

It really depends on what content is added to the game.
If SE somehow makes it so you absolutely need to change jobs in the field and you will somehow be efficient with balanced stats then you will be correct.

Then again why let us change our attributes at all then if that is the situation.
Doesn't it kind of take the point out of being able to change attributes in the first place if you need them average across the board.

As I said earlier though:
Quote:
I think that, if a character that has attributes set to play both conjurer and gladiator is able to tank an HNM effectively, a gladiator with perfect stats would be completely broken.

You better believe if endgame is anything like it was in FFXI your going to need to max as much as you can.
It makes no sense for a gladiator with LV50 stats to be able to tank a monster that a LV75 gladiator has a hard time with. That's an extreme example, but yeah.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 8:36am by Osanshouo
#75 Aug 21 2010 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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Currently the surplus xp generates over time. When it initially kicks in you'll cop a 1% xp loss per kill. The longer you remain on that class the worse it gets up to about a 90% xp loss. The length of time it takes to reach the higher percentages is proportional to how much you're grinding.

^ To answer the questions about how much xp is lost.

Also, please be mindful that surplus will probably end up in the final game but most likely much weaker than what it is at the moment. The FFXIV team at SE have heard all of the feedback from the community regarding surplus and will endeavour to find a solution that works for everyone. There are some players out there that are supportive of the system and others that are against it.

Just be patient. XI had years to correct some of the initial issues and it turned out to be a rather rewarding experience. If you're that worried about it then wait for the first expansion pack, or at least a couple of patches in before launching your life in Eorzea.
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#76 Aug 21 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Then again why let us change our attributes at all then if that is the situation.
Doesn't it kind of take the point out of being able to change attributes in the first place if you need them average across the board.


There is a reallocation option, but it's not complete reallocation. It's there so you can make small tweaks if you feel the need to do so. I'm sure that even with evened out stats, there will be some discrepancy.

Quote:
You better believe if endgame is anything like it was in FFXI your going to need to max as much as you can.
It makes no sense for a gladiator with LV50 stats to be able to tank a monster that a LV75 gladiator has a hard time with. That's an extreme example, but yeah.


With the current system, you can tailor your party setup for every encounter, at least generally.

Also, it's more like a lvl 75 Warrior without STR merits against lvl 75 Warrior with STR merits, especially when diminishing returns comes into play. STR is not the end all stat in this game like it wasn't in FFXI, your equipment stats and food will most likely be more important.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 1:01pm by Hyanmen
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#77 Aug 21 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Correct em if I am wrong but in another thread, it was mentioned that guilds have a huge range of "passive traits" rewards like -10 STR +10 INT. The understanding was that these were specifically introduced to allow you to get around stat point allocation in the field in a limited way and that these were equippable like abilities. Someone please confirm or deny as this will settle a lot of discussion.

But even if that is the case, I have to agree with Osanshouo. If stats are 'meant' to be evened/averaged (and I don't see anything in the interviews supporting this at all but I could have overlooked it), then why is there re-allocation at all? And even if there is, that either means a) it's fake freedom by making you think tweaking a point here or there matters when it doesn't or b) it's that much more important to be +1 or +2 on a stat than before. The former is just lame while the latter forces even MORE min-maxing, which is what it seems like they are trying to avoid.

I'm with Mikh...I'll be happy to decide if I want to play the game the way you intended but if you give me a choice don't penalize me both ways. Damned if you do, damned if you don't isn't exactly a recipe for success.
#78 Aug 21 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm under the impression that they're using the surplus system to force players to play other classes in the beta to test them out before release. I had read somewhere, I don't know where now, that it's rumored that the surplus system will be less restricting in the final product.


CoochZero wrote:
But even if that is the case, I have to agree with Osanshouo. If stats are 'meant' to be evened/averaged (and I don't see anything in the interviews supporting this at all but I could have overlooked it), then why is there re-allocation at all? And even if there is, that either means a) it's fake freedom by making you think tweaking a point here or there matters when it doesn't or b) it's that much more important to be +1 or +2 on a stat than before. The former is just lame while the latter forces even MORE min-maxing, which is what it seems like they are trying to avoid.



Because more options is usually better than fewer options. It gives players a choice. Yeah, SE could have created solid pre determined stat sets, but they didn't want to. They're giving us the ability to choose whether or not we want to balance it out or go full (insert class style here).

I have the choice to set up my stats so that I can create the most insane damage output I can on Pugilist, or I can choose to balance it in the event that I want to switch to Lancer.

It's about choice, not limitation. Players can choose to min/max or they can choose not to, but they can't choose to do both at the same time.
#79 Aug 21 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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But that is an incorrect comparison because you are looking at 2 DoW classes vs. changing to DoM. That's the issue.

Be honest, going from one DD to another isn't really a big choice/change, is it? Your stats will largely carry over. Maxing a PUG stats means you will do just fine switching to a Lancer, you won't be instantly totally gimp/ineffectual. You can be when going from PUG to CON. Going from Gladiator to Conjurer is a big change and what you are missing is that you are being penalized for doing the thing SE says they are trying to encourage.

True choice and flexibility is going from tank to caster NOT going from DD that uses hands to DD that uses a stick.
#80 Aug 21 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The system is designed in a way that the optimal way to assign your stats is to allocate them evenly. Everyone will have evened out stats, no one cares if you are not perfectly optimal at all situations stat wise because it's not possible, and those who have optimal stats for only one class are gimps in 9 out of 10 situations anyway.


So we should all make the same exact character? Balanced and average at all jobs. How is that better? Why should everyone be average and equal? Seems like it's either that or dedicate yourself to one particular setup. Which goes against the whole "Excel in all classes on 1 character" stuff they've been using as a huge selling point. That's what we're saying. Or at least what I'm saying. If you're going to force me to be versatile and play various classes, let me kick *** the way I want to in all of them. I don't think it's gamebreaking to allow me to re-allocate all stats to create a solo setup along with a pure DD one, etc. As long as I can't do it every 2 minutes or something crazy like that.

Still, this is all fun debating before we see the final product anyway. It's not a deal-breaker for me. And maybe I'll be proven wrong once we see all the possibilities with this system. For now, I understand your explanations, but I don't agree that it's a brilliant system thus far...

#81 Aug 21 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Quote:
The system is designed in a way that the optimal way to assign your stats is to allocate them evenly. Everyone will have evened out stats, no one cares if you are not perfectly optimal at all situations stat wise because it's not possible, and those who have optimal stats for only one class are gimps in 9 out of 10 situations anyway.


So we should all make the same exact character? Balanced and average at all jobs. How is that better? Why should everyone be average and equal? Seems like it's either that or dedicate yourself to one particular setup. Which goes against the whole "Excel in all classes on 1 character" stuff they've been using as a huge selling point. That's what we're saying. Or at least what I'm saying. If you're going to force me to be versatile and play various classes, let me kick *** the way I want to in all of them. I don't think it's gamebreaking to allow me to re-allocate all stats to create a solo setup along with a pure DD one, etc. As long as I can't do it every 2 minutes or something crazy like that.

Still, this is all fun debating before we see the final product anyway. It's not a deal-breaker for me. And maybe I'll be proven wrong once we see all the possibilities with this system. For now, I understand your explanations, but I don't agree that it's a brilliant system thus far...



Ok, reassigning all your stat points is possible, but it takes hours and you can't assign any points in the meantime.

I think the solution here is to go ahead and leave the reallocation system as "pretty horrible" in the field, and make it just unassign ALL your points at once when you're in town.
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#82 Aug 21 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I don't think it's at all a problem to leave the stats the way they are in the field and make it so that you can do a full stat dump in town.
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#83 Aug 21 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Again, can anyone confirm the passive -/+ traits from the other thread that seem to be intended to combat this very issue? I think that is a more than fair middle ground as it also encourages the leve system as well.

I am just never going to understand any system that uses punishment to keep people in line vs. rewards to keep people in line. Let's turn to the Simpsons again:

"Here we do not reward intelligence; we punish ignorance."
#84 Aug 21 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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ChoochZero wrote:
Again, can anyone confirm the passive -/+ traits from the other thread that seem to be intended to combat this very issue? I think that is a more than fair middle ground as it also encourages the leve system as well.

I am just never going to understand any system that uses punishment to keep people in line vs. rewards to keep people in line. Let's turn to the Simpsons again:

"Here we do not reward intelligence; we punish ignorance."


Confirm as in, do they exist? Yes...and it is somewhat a solution...there again though, I'm using 1 or multiple trait slots to balance my stats when I could be using them for even more productive reasons...so I'm still not sold on that either...
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#85 Aug 21 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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This exp surplus really upsets me because in FFXI i enjoyed playing one job and trying to be the best I could be at it. So almost all of my game play was logged on that one job wether I was farming, camping NMs, crafting, exploring, questing or partying. I *was* planning to play FFXIV in a similar way with one favorite fighting class (and possibly some crafting and gathering classes), but I feel like these restrictions discourage that type of game play. In FFXI i felt like that one job was my characters identity, so i'd be sad if that was not possible in this game based on silly restrictions.

side note: SE is trying to make this game friendly for "the casual gamer," but the necessary system requirements to play seem more suited to a hardcore gamer with money to blow on a nice computer. I could be wrong, just an observation. (not a complaint about the game because I think it is beautiful)

Also: I think most people would become frustrated if every person in a party had the same guildleve and upon completion only the initiator got credit for completion. Imagine doing DM or some other crazy quest and having to do it like 21 times just because people complained about a lack of guildleves in the Beta.
#86 Aug 21 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait, these traits take up ABILITY slots? Ok, massive fail, never mind, move along, nothing to see here...
#87 Aug 21 2010 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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ChoochZero wrote:
Wait, these traits take up ABILITY slots? Ok, massive fail, never mind, move along, nothing to see here...


They take up a trait slot, not quite the same thing... still lame though
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#88 Aug 21 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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ChoochZero wrote:
Wait, these traits take up ABILITY slots? Ok, massive fail, never mind, move along, nothing to see here...


Well, you have a set of ability slots...and then another set of slots for the traits...but what I was saying is there are other traits that would give bonuses that you would now have less of because you're using the Stat Adjusting traits

EDIT
Beat me to it, well I'll take this moment to say I love the Magus avatar...

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 4:13pm by TwistedOwl
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#89 Aug 21 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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WHEW! Ok, I remember reading someone said you had separate passive trait slots.

Honestly, this ain't too shabby of a middle ground...for SE, it's LEAPS AND BOUNDS over what we are used to. If I have to devote a couple of passive trait slots to this for an entirely different class experience, I can swallow that not-so-bitter pill. It's a quick and dirty way to balance out early char swapping without being too restrictive. Thanks for the responses!
#90 Aug 21 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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Blah for reading all 88 posts before throwing myself in!

At the beginning of this thread I thought it was a bad too, the fact they are building a non addictive MMO is kind of shooting themselves in the foot...

But it really is the same thing as WoW's rest system mechanically: play a whole bunch and get less XP, Play after a long rest and get more. They are taking the "glass half empty" approach by calling our "rested extra" blue XP nothing special and our "regular whats-left-over" purple xp what we earn at a penalty though. It is harder to think of it that way but the same in principle.

I agree with horse and carrot! Not Horse and stick!

They should focus on rewarding class switches (+xp bonuses for a class you haven't played in a while) rather than -xp penalties for one you've played too much. It would accomplish the EXACT same thing, without the negative connotations that will have them ripped apart by the media.

But that means I endorse the system either way and am just arguing over pretty names? which makes the issue seem less substantial really.

It will all depends very heavily on what cannot be argued now: the exact number balances on launch.
#91 Aug 21 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is kinda tl;dr already, but I finally understand what surplus exp means.

It was SE's way of saying we don't allow nubs in the game to level one class all the way to full rank without leveling up other classes; this ensures everyone's character is well rounded. That way, when you invite that level 80 maurader to the party, he isn't missing the 10 secondary skills that are vital for the instance boss.

The end.
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#92 Aug 21 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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For the record, no one has figured out definitively what surplus EXP is. For the record, no one has definitively proven that any particular stat being boosted actually does anything noticeable.

Damage and accuracy things seem to be much more gear oriented and based on skill level rather than stats.
#93 Aug 22 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Mathisyn wrote:


So far the armor looks.... for lack of a better word, drab. I don't want to look like I'm living in a 14th century british town, plus where's some variety. It's FFXI all over again with 90% of the players wearing the samr armor


I like how FFXI's armor looks. I've never been a fan of armor with giant shoulder pads and glowing runes all over it with everything either surrounded by floating crystals or on fire.



If anyone rates you down for this, they're a troll. I like giant shoulder pads with glowing runes, but I can totally see why some people don't. I think it's o.k. that SE stuck with classic armor designs, but he does have a point on the lack of variety. SE even proudly presented us with a video of how they're reusing the same models over and over again, again. . .


A shirt is a shirt, there is no need to remodel shirt geometry a hundred times to make a hundred different shirts that all have the same shape anyway when you can just use clip maps (which is the "polygon shaving" they're talking about. a map is used to determine what parts of the geometry are rendered)), texture maps and bump maps to make a hundred different completely different looking shirts with the same geometry.

This is just a more advanced version of the system they used in FFXI, and it worked great there. If they really need a completely different clothing geometry to do something then they will add one just like they have done in FFXI over the years.

If you want to see drab look at LOTRO. FFVIV's armor is not drab. Realistic yes, drab no.
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#94 Aug 22 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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See...there's a flaw there...I don't like grinding. Most people who quit FFXI did it because they don't want to grind anymore. It was fun the first few hundred hours but now it's old.


I do not understand this logic for someone who wants to buy an MMO. Every MMO has a grind in it, if you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing MMOs. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think that SE can push out enough guildleves for you to do infinitely - sure they can allow re-dos on all of them without the 48 cool down, how long before that gets boring. My advice to you, without meaning to sound like an ***, don't like grinding? stay away from MMOs.
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#95 Aug 22 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Default
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P.S. The sky is falling. Whatever will we all do if FFXIV fails? -.-
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#96 Aug 22 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Default
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...and out of the blue another person like SolidMack comes along and proves that there are people that have barely dipped their toe into the water of MMORPG and the direction they are headed towards. This isn't the late 90's or early 21st century any longer. Things have changed.
#97 Aug 22 2010 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Guildleves are reset every 48hours SERVER TIME
Its NOT 48 hours to you.


Example:
- Monday Morning you dont do any but they reset
- Tuesday you do all 8
- Wednesday 9am JST = reset

So its only been 24hrs since you completed them.

Please learn how it works!
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#98 Aug 22 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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...and out of the blue another person like SolidMack comes along and proves that there are people that have barely dipped their toe into the water of MMORPG and the direction they are headed towards. This isn't the late 90's or early 21st century any longer. Things have changed.


elaborate please. Which MMO doesn't have a grind in your opinion and before that, what is your definition of a grind? a grind in my books is having to kill monsters, through repeated actions, over and over and over again in order to level up. EQ has it, FFXI has it, WoW has it, Aion has it, Star Wars will have it, FFXIV will have it. Now being fair, some grinds are funner than others (and its all dependent on what you find fun - hack and slash kill everything in your way or slower more strategic party combat, etc.)...again, FFXIV will have the grind, I don't know why anyone would think otherwise...there is no MMO that has shown its getting away from this at all, and if there are, please tell me which ones.
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#99 Aug 22 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Yeah, I hadn't really put two and two together but that doesn't make much sense.

I -wanted- to dabble in a few classes but the stat allocation pretty much screws me. I can't go back and forth between a melee and a caster because the stat allocation means that I need to either be mediocre in both or great in one and pathetic in the other.

Now if they want me to play multiple classes, I'm TOTALLY cool with that, but ffs let me change my stats whenever I change my class. Maybe even let me have a "melee stat set" and a "mage stat set" and toggle between the two.

Another annoyance is the abilities. Whenever you go back and forth between classes, you have to re-equip your abilities.

Every.

Single.

Time.

If you want me to switch classes, don't penalize me for it.

And if you want me to stay one class, don't penalize me for that.



Really, I'm trying to be pretty open here, SE. Either tell me you only want me to stick with one class because I can't change my stats and I don't want to waste 2-3 minutes equipping abilities every time I change classes (because of UI lag) -or- say that you're instituting a penalty for playing one class too much and make changing either.

Don't punish me for changing AND punish me for NOT changing.

If anything else, it means the only "correct" way to play is to level two classes but they both have to be the same discipline. That's the only way that the stat changes don't hurt you AND the skill swaps don't kill you.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 3:11am by Mikhalia


Rated up for outstanding insight, accuracy and clarity of thought. Perhaps I am being desperate (or even a little cowardly), but right now I am hoping these ridiculous penalties are in place to force people to try lots of aspects of the game in order for SE to collect data.

Truth be told, I find that distasteful because I don't like being forced to do anything when I am the one shelling out cash for it. My dime - my time. That said, I can somewhat (with a twitchy candy-smile) understand that these are in place for data collecting and consumption. However, if its not changed drastically (or dropped altogether) when it actually comes out I will be bordering furious.

As aforementioned above - if I am paying for it (in particularly) monthly, I should be able to do what I want any time I want as much as I want. If I want to grind till my eyes bleed and I lose my job or something equally idiotic, thats my prerogative. If I want to run around in this games version of sublinger and do emotes all day in town, thats my prerogative. If I want to change jobs every so often to level them up, again: prerogative, not my duty as some kind of digital indentured servant to SE.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility.
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#100 Aug 22 2010 at 3:14 AM Rating: Default
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SolidMack wrote:


elaborate please. Which MMO doesn't have a grind in your opinion and before that, what is your definition of a grind? a grind in my books is having to kill monsters, through repeated actions, over and over and over again in order to level up. EQ has it, FFXI has it, WoW has it, Aion has it, Star Wars will have it, FFXIV will have it. Now being fair, some grinds are funner than others (and its all dependent on what you find fun - hack and slash kill everything in your way or slower more strategic party combat, etc.)...again, FFXIV will have the grind, I don't know why anyone would think otherwise...there is no MMO that has shown its getting away from this at all, and if there are, please tell me which ones.


The word grind was used with earlier MMORPG in relation to how leveling felt like a 9 to 5 job. You'd have to find the appropriate jobs to party with and you'd need to stake out a camp to "grind" out the xp. Usually you'd try to go with people that were going to be grinding with you for at least a couple of hours or it didn't make any sense to go in the first place. You wouldn't refer to leveling up as "grinding" the beginning stages of character development because it was usually very easy to solo before you hit the optimal level and you'd have to start grinding with others to advance.

Now, you can try and change the meaning of grind to mean anybody trying to advance their character, but more modern MMORPG try and make leveling feel more organic, easier, and less dependent on others. I'm definitely questioning the semantics of the useage of the word "grind" though. People like WoW because it feels nothing like a grind.
#101 Aug 22 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
Oenos wrote:
This thread is kinda tl;dr already, but I finally understand what surplus exp means.

It was SE's way of saying we don't allow nubs in the game to level one class all the way to full rank without leveling up other classes; this ensures everyone's character is well rounded. That way, when you invite that level 80 maurader to the party, he isn't missing the 10 secondary skills that are vital for the instance boss.

The end.


Thank you! +1

And the stat allocation isn't a big deal at all really. It is a bit inconvenient, but when I decide I want to change from DoW to DoM and vice-versa in a bit, I hit "reallocate" - and I start moving the numbers. I do my thing, then I hit reallocate again. You can do this until you have your optimum build. You are not trapped at all. The system is also probably meant to give people an incentive not to completely neglect Strength, Vitality and Dexterity as a mage, and Intelligence, Mind and Piety as a DoW.

I played all day today and never ran into surplus exp. When it happens I am sure it will be annoying, but I'm doing my best to ensure it doesn't happen (or at least frequently) by switching jobs often.

Now I am a level 7 Pug, level 6 Con, level 9 botanist and level 3 goldsmith.

There are a lot of things wrong with the beta but I like the mechanics of the game a lot.

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