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SE trying new things? OMFG!!!Follow

#1 Aug 21 2010 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Come on people, this is not FFXI repeat NOT FFXI. A lot of people are complaining about new things SE is trying out.

48 cool down on leve. OK, would you really reather have 8 quests you could repeat over and over again until you reach the level cap? Sounds pretty boring you ask me. Hate to compare but WoW has dungeon finder you can do all day long and level like crazy. I've tried it, and yes, it gets pretty **** boring after the 3rd or 4th time.

Surplus exp. SE putting restrictions on leveling? Well guess we better break out the game shark to get around that. Apparently they have a system they think will work. The beta testers aren't the only ones they have playing this game. They do have trained professionals that are playing this game too. Maybe they want to put an obstacle out there for those people "Hey look at me. I'm the first level 75 bluemage" You all know the kind of moron I'm talking about. The kind that mad leveled it to 75 in the first few days but didn't bother learning any spells or even how to play the job.

Solo play verses partying. It's beyond me why they would want to bring in solo play when no one ever complained about not being able to solo in FFXI. I mean it was so much fun scanning the AH or farming endlessly on your melee because soloing EP's and resting 5 minutes for hp after each fight was.... Boring. Most of you guys checking out the videos are only seeing people in their early 20's soloing. Who's to say when you get to 25+ soloing gets harder? In FFXI I could solo to 20 fairly easy toward the end. SE has said they are working on trying to find a balance between the two. Me personally think their developers are smart enough to figure it out.

Mana regen? "I'm sorry without a refresher I'm not gonna party." Come on people do you really want to see these type of sayings again? I've partied many of times without a refresher. If you and your party are any kind of decent players at all you could do 6k+ per hour in FFXI. A good healer with food and juices you'd never stop for mana. SE said they wanted players to learn how to manage their mana. From what I've seen so far there is a few ways to regain mana. Maybe they want to get rid of the boringness of the healer standing in the back casting 2 or 3 spells over and over. Get them up there swinging. If your fighting an AoE mob or a silencing mob then they just have to learn when to be up there and when not to.

In short, no one really knows how the game is going to be handled. You may find the new setup more to your liking then again you may not. If I wanted another FFXI or WoW then I could just play them and their expansions. I'm ready for new stuff to explore, new abilities to learn, and new ways to fight. I'm pretty confident SE will do a decent job and hopefully they will have the bugs fixed by release.

Remember people this is NOT FFXI!!!
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#2 Aug 21 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Surplus exp. SE putting restrictions on leveling? Well guess we better break out the game shark to get around that. Apparently they have a system they think will work. The beta testers aren't the only ones they have playing this game. They do have trained professionals that are playing this game too. Maybe they want to put an obstacle out there for those people "Hey look at me. I'm the first level 75 bluemage" You all know the kind of moron I'm talking about. The kind that mad leveled it to 75 in the first few days but didn't bother learning any spells or even how to play the job.


I'd say a good 98%+ of people in the beta forums who have been providing feedback are currently expressing major distaste about the surplus system. All of my friends are also having second thoughts about playing the game due to it. For every 150 negative comments about the surplus system I see about 2 positive comments, and they're usually on-the-fence comments (or soon turn out to be negative).

I am all for having casual players rewarded, but a reward is not counted as hindering another person. A reward would be to give casual players EXP%+.

If someone wants to play one class, then they should be able to play one class and level when they want to. It's their problem if other people won't play with them because they're too lazy/indifferent to leveling other classes and being able to do more than one thing. It's all about the player's choice.
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#3 Aug 21 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Why does everyone take this as the developers trying to punish people? That is not their intention. What they're obviously trying to do is force more people to try out more jobs/classes because most people wont otherwise.

Benefits:

-People gain a fundamental understanding of what it's like to play other classes.
-More opportunities for people to group together during the leveling process.
-Gil seller bots wont be able to grind one class all the way to the top to farm. They're gonna have to bot it the hard way.
-Forces people to stop and smell the roses every once in a while. How many times has that **** thread about that Taru WHM popped up? How many times do I see threads from people begging for others to take their time for once instead of racing to the end? Well there you go people, and answer to your prayers.

Downsides:

-Kinda has that subjob feel to it that people didn't like from the first game. Except you gain no real benefit to your main class from leveling it.
-Stops people from racing to max level.

I'm sure the tears over this will last quite a while until the developers finally fold and remove this constriction. I'm just sick of all the people saying "I'm not going to play this game because of this!!!!11111" Yeah, really? I call BS, you know you'll be camped out in front of the store to be the first one to get your copy home and play just so you can continue to complain. That seems to be the most popular pass time of the MMO gamer.
#4 Aug 21 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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The problem with the benefits is because it is forcing the player to do that. The general consensus is that if a player is going to pay monthly for a game they are to play the way they want to play with no holds attached to it. They shouldn't be limited.

Another thing the development team said themselves is that the game is supposed to provide as much freedom as possible to the player. The surplus system is completely opposite to that.

Again, as much as I'd like to see more people trying out different classes, forcing the players to do that is a terrible design and fiscal mistake.
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#5 Aug 21 2010 at 7:41 AM Rating: Default
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In short, no one really knows how the game is going to be handled. You may find the new setup more to your liking then again you may not. If I wanted another FFXI or WoW then I could just play them and their expansions. I'm ready for new stuff to explore, new abilities to learn, and new ways to fight. I'm pretty confident SE will do a decent job and hopefully they will have the bugs fixed by release.

Remember people this is NOT FFXI!!!


well said! :)
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#6 Aug 21 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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I think everyone also needs to remember that new =/= better. Granted, it's kind of hard to tell when you crash every 5 minutes, there are legions of people in the starting areas from floods of beta invites, and there's no paper instruction manual for reference.

I have to keep reminding myself there's no content in the beta. . it's simply a place to exist to make sure their servers can handle the load. I see a lot of potential though, and I think 6 months or so after launch it'll be shaping up nicely as they adjust their ideas to coexist with player expectations.
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#7 Aug 21 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Default
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The problem with the benefits is because it is forcing the player to do that. The general consensus is that if a player is going to pay monthly for a game they are to play the way they want to play with no holds attached to it. They shouldn't be limited.

Another thing the development team said themselves is that the game is supposed to provide as much freedom as possible to the player. The surplus system is completely opposite to that.

Again, as much as I'd like to see more people trying out different classes, forcing the players to do that is a terrible design and fiscal mistake.


You're half right. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to make you play this game, if you don't like it then don't play it. It's really very simple. But people don't like it and they insist on complaining about it. The game design set out so far is obviously designed to benefit the casual player which makes up a vast majority of players. I hate to bring up this example, but take a look at wow. Thats casual tailored gaming at it's finest. WoW, easily, has the largest player base of any MMORPG ever made. With a population that grows by the day even though they make it more and more casual oriented.

SE isn't a bunch of idiots. They deal in marketing on a daily basis and they've been doing it for years with an entire staff dedicated to it. The choices they're making for this game aren't designed to make it a better play experience it's designed to appeal to the largest player base. I don't believe there are any fiscal mistakes happening here. SE is a business who's only goal is to make MONEY, not to make people happy. The happiness is only an illusion they put forward so people will flock to them to buy their product.
#8 Aug 21 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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As for MP, people should learn how to manage it effectively.
If anyone has played a Galkan White Mage (without Astral Rings) in FFXI, especially in lower areas such as the Dunes, they should get an idea of how it should be.

Just don't go in a casting frenzy and use all your MP in a single monster. Remember your normal attack requires no MP and generates TP.

Regarding the Surplus EXP, this may actually encourage people level crafting jobs. Since crafting jobs requieres virtually no stats (so far...), any Discipline can take it without penalties.
See at the positive side: with more crafting / gathering jobs, we should have a steady economy in game.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:20am by Skibit
#9 Aug 21 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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It seems to me that the system is engineered so that players who want to solo will still be able to max out a char, and while those who group together will get there faster, the soloers won't be left in the dust. That is my initial impression anyway.
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#10 Aug 21 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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If I see one more of these "Imm'ma complain about people complaining" threads I'm going to eat my own face and puke it in the next saps mouth. The only thing you're doing (besides being completely hypocritical) is throwing another log on the argument-syndrome thats going on in these forums.

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#11 Aug 21 2010 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Vackashken wrote:
If I see one more of these "Imm'ma complain about people complaining" threads I'm going to eat my own face and puke it in the next saps mouth. The only thing you're doing (besides being completely hypocritical) is throwing another log on the argument-syndrome thats going on in these forums.



This reminded me of RE: Code Veronica for some reason.
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#12 Aug 21 2010 at 8:44 AM Rating: Default
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I kind of thought all the rants were supposed to go into The Asylum or whatever forum. But maybe it's just me.

I kind of like the idea of the surplus system. Grinding out a single job gets tiring and boring. With The surplus system, it requires you take a slight break. With that break, you end up crafting or farming mobs for cash. You craft items and put up items for sale to make some extra money.

Also, forcing people to level OTHER classes benefits them for the simple purpose of gaining extra skills to use. I really don't understand how people can complain so much about a system that actually rewards you in the end. I can almost guarantee that not a single player in retail is going to ONLY use the set of skills gained from their main job. Another benefit is that you can level multiple jobs using the same set of gear possibly so you don't have to keep buying the same set when you finally level up that other job you want skills from. That's how I'm seeing it.

*Edit*
On top of all this, who's to say that the Surplus Exp doesn't kick in from grinding the same mobs constantly? I could've sworn there was an interview or something where they said something about monopolizing mobs. Maybe the reason some people have hit 20 without the Surplus kicking in is because they didn't farm fireflies for 3 hours on end and rather killed other things so the Surplus didn't build?

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:50am by WileyJT
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#13 Aug 21 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I heard a rumor that the surplus system may be more intense in the beta 3 to get testers to test a variety of classes. SE said the surplus system would still be in place after release, but maybe it will be more relaxed.

Also,

Rjain wrote:
I am all for having casual players rewarded, but a reward is not counted as hindering another person. A reward would be to give casual players EXP%+.


I'm not in the beta, but it sounds like this is pretty much how it is. EXP doesn't stop flowing after the surplus kicks in, it just comes slower. So, think of it like this:

First 12 hours = 150% EXP
Second 12 hours = 135% EXP
Third 12 hours = 115% EXP
Fourth 12 hours = 100% EXP

You can grind forever and still level up but you get a bonus for mixing it up. Keep in mind I don't know exactly how the system works.

There are always going to be players that see a bonus to the first few hours as hindering their later hours because it's not the same EXP rate.

If they gave a one or two hour bonus to players that remained logged out for 12+ hours, people would see it as SE actually trying to get people to not play the game, rather than helping those catch up that don't have as much time to play.

I do see it as a bonus to casual players instead of a hindrance to hardcore players
#14 Aug 21 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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Please don't leave out the sub-par installer on the list of new things that don't quite work yet.
#15 Aug 21 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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OH c'mon. . the installer is about on par: For SE ;) I got all nostalgic remembering the FFXI patch days and overnight downloads :D

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#16 Aug 21 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
The only problems I'm having are very basic things, like gameplay elements that seem to be missing from XI (auto-target for adds, very annoying to tab, tab, tab, tab your way through mobs while being hit for 80 HP every couple of seconds) and the mouse problem (I've since switched to a DualShock3). The downloader/installer is fine: I came in with nothing downloaded and it took less than 5 hours to be up and running.
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#17 Aug 21 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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Vackashken wrote:
If I see one more of these "Imm'ma complain about people complaining" threads I'm going to eat my own face and puke it in the next saps mouth. The only thing you're doing (besides being completely hypocritical) is throwing another log on the argument-syndrome thats going on in these forums.



Uhh... you just complained about people complaining about complainers. By your own logic what about that isn't 'completely hypocritical'?
#18 Aug 21 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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The reason a lot of people are ********* at least the reason I am, is because my bullsh*t sense is tingling.
After so many years of observing how SE does things you just kind of develop a 6th sense of impending fail.

There are lots of different reasons for SE acting sneaky and dodging questions.
There are the times when they have something awesome planned and they are building suspense.

Sometimes I like to think they're messing with us as sort of a psychological game.
You know, like when it looks like they're about to do something horrible and they wont comment on it, then they don't do it, and then you love them just because they didn't do something horrible.
(Squareholm syndrome if you will)

Then there are the times they break something or there is some other problem, they pretend there is no issue and the players are imagining it or it's their IP's fault, and then they fix it and you love them just because The Great Fail is over.
(Not the good kind of great, great like The Great depression, or The Great Chicago Fire)

Then there are the times when they know they're going to do something that ****** everyone off and they answer as few questions as possible or completely evade the subject until absolutely necessary.
Sometimes if enough people dislike something enough they change it, other times there's no amount of complaining, begging, or threatening that will make them budge with the exception of maybe a lawsuit or horrible press.

Sometimes its wonderful when a developer will stand their ground and defend their game, if they caved to everyone about everything I think their games would be boring. Then there is every other time.

I'm going to stop stop posting about it for now because it's not a reality yet, it's an incomplete thought.
Even if the mere idea of such a thing makes me want to nerd rage on principle.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 2:04pm by Osanshouo
#19 Aug 21 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Default
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LMAO SE is FORCING you to do something different in a different game? Forcing you? Come on people you are playing a "game." Without boundaries then can do whatever you want. Why not get rid of level caps while your at it and let people level as high as they want. So what their level 1,564 GLA and can solo gods. They got to do it the way they wanted too. Get for real, Forcing! If FFXI didn't exist you people wouldn't even know the difference.

How can you really even judge the surplus? SE don't have it set in stone yet and no one knows the % cap on it yet. When you hit the surplus you drop what 10%? After awhile it goes to 15%? Then maybe 20%? The cap could be 25%? People don't know and that's probably where party becomes better then solo. In FFXI at level 55 on colibri a 25% loss would still keep me over 10k exp a hour. Like some of the other posts said. Your not even sure how it works. The interview says changing weapons. So your in your static party and you guys hit the cap. Well now its time for the tank and healer to change to a DD and DD's to change to tank and healer. As a static party with any brains you'll have least 2 of your jobs close so you guys can do it.

These people saying they don't like the surplus are the same people thinking they were getting FFXI-2. If you want to level grind like that again, then delete your char on FFXI and start over. Don't waste the $50-$75 or upgrading your PC. I'm sure SE won't have harsh feeling against you. I say have at it for real. Maybe the more of you people stay on it the less retards and gilsellers we'll have to deal with on 14.

OH yeah, before I forget. For those of you that may have not read the first post or forgot.

THIS IS NOT FFXI!!!
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#20 Aug 21 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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The game design set out so far is obviously designed to benefit the casual player which makes up a vast majority of players.


I would imagine most casual players wouldn't spend $1,000 on a new computer to be able to play the game decently.

While I admire SE's position to try to appeal more to casual players, I don't think they'll be getting too many of them anytime soon.

Besides, from what I see, everyone (including the infrequent "casual player") in the beta forum is going nuts over this. Even the casual players think it's a ridiculous decision.

To be fair, no one fully understands what this surplus system is really going to do or be like come release. Some people are overreacting. As it stands though, the vast majority is highly against this.
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#21 Aug 21 2010 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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What I see is a game tailored toward final fantasy fans - those fans are, more or less, casual fans - this said, I think only about the first 20-25 levels will be fairly casual...kind of like a system in disguise, and then bring out the parties for anything and everything. What this'll do is suck people in and then most will find it hard t leave by that point. I think SE are smarter than many people seem to think, although I'm on the fence about the surplus system but I leveled Archer from level 1 to 14 without many breaks except for a little crafting and some gathering (so its not as bad as people think it'll be)...I know its a restriction, but so is everything in game mechanics. Why don't they let us fly? that's a restriction. We play the game they want us to play and we pay for the game they make - if we don't like something, we show it and we hope they change it, if they don't we are either overwhelmed by all the good qualities of the game and forget about it or we quit...typically, they will listen (and for those saying they don't listen, FFXIV is a by product of them listening) so I say hold your horses people, the sky isn't falling.
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#22 Aug 21 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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48 cool down on leve. OK, would you really reather have 8 quests you could repeat over and over again until you reach the level cap? Sounds pretty boring you ask me.

No I would like to have a plethora of quests/leaves I can use to level my class as much as I want. Leave it up to me to decide when I feel I'm bored.

Quote:
Surplus exp. SE putting restrictions on leveling?

Yeah bummer.

Quote:

Mana regen? "I'm sorry without a refresher I'm not gonna party." Come on people do you really want to see these type of sayings again? I've partied many of times without a refresher.

Yeah so to combat the need for refresher, let's take mana regen away completely. Even resting.

Quote:
If I wanted another FFXI or WoW then I could just play them and their expansions.

I don't think everyone wanted another wow or ffxi. We just want to immerse ourselves in whatever facet of the game we enjoy for as long as we want without penalty for it. We pay them to play as it is.

Quote:

THIS IS NOT FFXI!!!

Is FFXI the only MMO you've ever played? No good MMO has placed this many restrictions on it's players. This has absolutely nothing to do with FFXI.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 1:22pm by GuardianFaith
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#23 Aug 21 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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WileyJT wrote:
Another benefit is that you can level multiple jobs using the same set of gear possibly so you don't have to keep buying the same set when you finally level up that other job you want skills from.


Woah... Can anyone explain this further? Is he saying i could be a mage wearing the armor of a gladiator because that is ridiculous, or is equipping gear based on your current class like it was in FFXI?
#24 Aug 21 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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ThomasKrown wrote:
WileyJT wrote:
Another benefit is that you can level multiple jobs using the same set of gear possibly so you don't have to keep buying the same set when you finally level up that other job you want skills from.


Woah... Can anyone explain this further? Is he saying i could be a mage wearing the armor of a gladiator because that is ridiculous, or is equipping gear based on your current class like it was in FFXI?


I haven't encountered any class-specific gear apart from the weapons so sure... mage wearing plate mail go... the stats on it are going to be pretty awful, but you can totally do it.
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#25 Aug 21 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Is he saying i could be a mage wearing the armor of a gladiator


It's that way in beta. That's all I can really say.
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#26 Aug 21 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I haven't encountered any class-specific gear apart from the weapons so sure... mage wearing plate mail go... the stats on it are going to be pretty awful, but you can totally do it.



Well, I suppose that is realistic to a degree and allows for creativity and customization which are good. Less cookie cutter classes /cheer

Do you think it will stay that way for release?

edit:quote fail

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 4:45pm by ThomasKrown
#27 Aug 21 2010 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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ThomasKrown wrote:
Quote:
ThomasKrown wrote:
WileyJT wrote:
Another benefit is that you can level multiple jobs using the same set of gear possibly so you don't have to keep buying the same set when you finally level up that other job you want skills from.


Woah... Can anyone explain this further? Is he saying i could be a mage wearing the armor of a gladiator because that is ridiculous, or is equipping gear based on your current class like it was in FFXI?


I haven't encountered any class-specific gear apart from the weapons so sure... mage wearing plate mail go... the stats on it are going to be pretty awful, but you can totally do it.


Probably. I definitely see them adding class-specific (or maybe discipline-specific) armor at higher levels, at low levels though there isn't really much of a reason not to just leave it this way.

Well, I suppose that is realistic to a degree and allows for creativity and customization which are good. Less cookie cutter classes /cheer

Do you think it will stay that way for release?


Probably, I can see them adding class-specific or discipline-specific gear at higher levels but at low levels it just doesn't matter enough

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 3:46pm by Callinon
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#28 Aug 21 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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You missed the main issues with the news about such things.

First, it's not so much that there is a 48 hour cool down. People hear it, people like it or dislike it. Most of them dislike it, but then again, there are only 4 battle leves per camp at the moment. There may be more at release, and they may take more than 5 minutes to complete.

Second, Most people that complained after that press release from gamescon because, not only did SE get asked direct questions about some major issues that were being discussed (Especially on the beta forums), but they openly admitted that they knew that the players were having those issues and knew that the players wanted their fears to be addressed. Instead, we get stuff like "Yes, we know that players want hardware mouse so that FPS doesn't effect mouse speed, but we currently have no plans to implement it".

They also stated that they knew players were having other issues, and didn't even try to give any relief to the apprehension that they were feeling. It was more like "Yes, we know they don't like it. ___________________________________________________________________ ."<(Space where they should have given more explanation of the system that players had concerns about.)

The majority of people who are up in arms are very upset about the fact that, even on the beta website and forums, there is no information explaining how the system is supposed to work. No where does it say "This is what surplus XP is and this is what it was meant to do." SE sorta stuck it in there between beta II and III and anyone's guess as to what it does exactly is as good as mine. Basic game mechanics should be properly explained in my opinion. It shouldn't take 200 players with parsers 5 days of fighting to confirm that strength increases damage. As such, it shouldn't take 200 players 20 hours of leveling and 50 hours of comparing notes to figure out what surplus EXP is, how it is calculated, and how it effects leveling. This is a game, not a subject for a thesis.


/rant

sry, that went longer than expected.


Short version: SE admitted to knowing player issues, but has said little to nothing about why those issues shouldn't be a problem. Or in some cases, blatantly refused to deal with the issue in the case of hardware mouse.
#29 Aug 21 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi everyone. First post, glad to be onboard!

To start I would just like to say that we all have absolutely no idea of what the surplus is going to be come release. All we have heard is that it 'will be implemented'. Thats speaks volumes without saying a dam thing, basically.

I could slam SE again and again and again for many things if I felt so inclined, however, I would rather switch my efforts to avoid the absolute hot-headedness that seems to be the norm on the beta forums and elsewhere. Dont get me wrong, I think the passion for this game is amazing! People are genuinely angry about things they dislike which only goes to show that the playerbase cares. I've read one specific post that stated that EVERY mmo site on earth is talking about this new feature. Dont look now but the developers have deep rooted XIV in most every mmo gamers mind now. 'Tune in to watch us fail or prove us right!'. Marketing 101 phase 1 GO No such thing as bad publicity. (Graphics are a nice selling point in the initial marketing strategy, of which XIV has in spades. Along with controversy...)

As far as surplus specifically: Do you really want people to be able to solo to end game?? For all we know they could flip a switch and make it to where every 48 hours all players will be under an Empress band effect for solo play, if you will. Maybe there will be gate gaurds who will issue a signet or faction that will require players to return to town every so often to continue with the accelerated pace on party leveling IT++ mobs. (Anyone remember Too Weak mobs? How was the xp?) Maybe, just maybe there will be the as promised FACTION leves that no one knows about as of yet. Will they provide enough content to better your 'main job' if you choose for the 48 hour downtime as to hem the dreadful deadtime window? Your guess is as good as mine.

I like the scope SE. Good job. I sure hope you can or have already figured out a way to bring it all together...





#30 Aug 21 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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KingRaul wrote:
Hi everyone. First post, glad to be onboard!



As far as surplus specifically: Do you really want people to be able to solo to end game??




To be perfectly honest, if some one else wants to solo to endgame, I really don't care.
Personally I like a mix, and from all the mmo's Ive played (FFXI, GW, WOW, EVE, EQ2, LOTRO)
Most average players do to. Heck now that I think about it even when I played Wow I never
fully soloed any charater to end, I always did some type of grouping here and there along the way, Weather it was group quest or instance. Oh I'm sure most have, but I didn't.
#31 Aug 21 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes true true. Not like they are stopping you from soloing to the end, just making you do it over a month and not a few days. I take it they are stopping people from leveling solo on shifts. legit or RMT. Wouldnt it be nice if some of the leves were cross-server, queued and had wicked drops just for participating? Thats what lolwow got exactly right. If you are RMT or just an idiot, give them the boot. Find a rep in 5 mins in the multi server pool.

There are already server strength icons for creating a character and specifically stated instanced areas where they are completely unnecessary/bizarre. This is good two fold. Its most likely they are strictly testing instance servers just from people creating new characters over and over during beta. Maybe the retainer areas will be cross server as well to form a global economy. I dunno
#32 Aug 21 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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snieh wrote:
Why does everyone take this as the developers trying to punish people? That is not their intention. What they're obviously trying to do is force more people to try out more jobs/classes because most people wont otherwise.


That's the problem! We should not be forced to do things, it's a game, not a job. We PAY to play these games, shouldn't we be allowed to play the way we want? If we got paid to play this game, then by all means, tell us what to do.

I don't go to a Starbucks, hand them my money and then they decide what I'm going to drink and how I'm supposed to drink it!

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 7:09pm by Tubrudi
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#33 Aug 21 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Default
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I don't go to a Starbucks, hand them my money and then they decide what I'm going to drink and how I'm supposed to drink it!


Your right. Now go ask em to give you a bigmac and large fry and they gonna tell you just like we are all saying you have to go somewhere else for that.

People are still not getting it. You are not forced to play this game. The whole reason I keep saying this is NOT FFXI is because everyone expects it to be similar to 11 but it'd not 11 it's 14. If they wanted most of the same stuff then they would of just made another expansion pack.

Once you all wake up and realize this is not FFXI and that its not supposed to be like 11 then you'll start to understand that it's a different game and it is supposed to have a different style of play. That style is what they feel is right for the game THEY are trying to make.

If you don't like that style of game play then don't buy it would be my best advice. No one is FORCING you to. For the most part all games force you to play the way the company intended it to be played. Minus those of you who buy them and go straight to the forums for the cheat codes or add on.

You know the funny thing about all these people saying bad stuff about surplus xp is most of them haven't even played an MMORPG with it and don't know how it really works or if it will even effect their game play much if at all.

LMAO Forcing you to. They forced you to read these threads, they forced you into beta, they forced you to level a certain way in a game, and now their going to force you to buy their product. LMAO FORCING!!!

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 6:50pm by XvirusTvirus
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#34 Aug 21 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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If the "different style of play" means that you get nerfed for playing a class that you enjoy, I don't like the style of play, regardless of how well I understand that this game is not FFXI.

let me break down his argument so that you comprehend his point.

You go to starbucks. They have several different drinks to offer. You walk up to the counter. You look at all that there is and think about what you want to drink. You decide that you want a frappacino. The cashier rings you up, and then you go to the counter to get your drink. They hand you a coffee with room for cream.

You tell the person that you wanted a frappacino. They say that you ordered a drink, and they gave you a drink.

Or we could swing it this way.

You get your frappacino, and you sit down in the cafe lobby and start sipping on it while reading a newspaper. After 5 minutes, the manager comes out and takes the newspaper from you. "I'm sorry, you've been reading the newspaper too long." Okay, wtf? You continue to drink your frappacino, and then the cashier politely tells you that you can't use your straw anymore, and promptly takes it away.

This would **** anyone off enough for them to leave. But lets say you stuck it out. You get down to the last 3 ounces of the drink. Then the manager comes back out and takes the drink from you. "I'm sorry, but you've had too much frappacino for today. I'll exchange that frappacino for an equal amount of any other drink you desire though! :D"


Do you understand what is going on?

I don't necessarily agree with the comparison, but it does hit a few good points, and to dismiss it by saying it's just another person "thinking it's XI!" is absolutely moronic. Please think about what you are saying before saying it. People like XIV, they like how the game plays, they like that it is NOT XI, and they appreciate it, but these limiters seem to server little point thus far, and serve no known purpose.

If SE would tell us the purpose, it would help alleviate many people's concerns. Just knowing what all these features are that we are supposed to be giving feedback on is something I consider important, and makes it impossible to judge how the game plays.

It's like playing basketball without knowing the rules. And you don't get the rules even if you ask for them. But the referee insists on calling the game very strictly on both teams. It just leaves everyone frustrated as ****.

#35 Aug 21 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I find it disheartening that some people's solution for complaining about a system of job control in FFXIV is "NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO BUY OR PLAY THE GAME".

It is an archaic way of thinking if you truely want to open up a world of MMORPG to a whole new generation of people that never got into the first game. The realm of MMORPG have changed. Usually we can tell how popular something is by the number of people that play the game. Now I played Final Fantasy XI for about 5 years off an on, and when I realized that things could be so much better and well thought out, I realized that those changes would have to come in a form of a new game. Here is the opportunity for a whole new game with almost the same type of atmosphere and several people are waiting for SE to respond to our cries for improvement over FFXI.

People are disappointed. This isn't what they wanted. There are beta testers flooding forums, that have nothing to do with FFXIV, and telling other gamers right now how disappointed they are. This is the opposite of winning the hearts and minds of new gamers to experience this world. If the answer is to never play the game then expect even less support from SE when they realize they don't have enough money coming in do to everything they have originally planned. You can love it to death all you want, but if you have nobody to share it with, then what is the point? We should want the game to appeal to a wider audience. We'd be so lucky to have even a couple million subscribers let alone 6 million.


Edited, Aug 21st 2010 8:40pm by zappa2001
#36 Aug 21 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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snieh wrote:
Why does everyone take this as the developers trying to punish people? That is not their intention. What they're obviously trying to do is force more people to try out more jobs/classes because most people wont otherwise.


They're taking it as "punishment" because the current implementation makes it feel, psychologically, like punishment.

Story time:

Back when WoW was first in beta, they had a "resting" system; if a character was fully rested, they would gain full XP from killing mobs, but as they killed more mobs, they would become tired, with the XP gain going down until eventually they were only getting 50% XP per kill. People hated it.

Then, still during beta, they made a change - they doubled the game's XP requirements, and if a character was rested, they would gain 200% XP until they exhausted their rested bonus, at which time they would only gain 100% XP per kill.

The net result was the same, but since it was structured to feel like a reward for being rested rather than a penalty for being tired, people liked it.

Human psychology is a fickle and complicated thing, and people's opinions on a game feature can be altered by something as seemingly trivial as wording (i.e. how it is "framed").

Relevant link is relevant.
#37 Aug 21 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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And everyone speaking in absolutes be they good, bad or ugly are foolish. No one can claim a win or total fail until the game ships. I'm reserving judgment until the end of the year. Playing beta is no different than rewinding and fast forwarding a youtube teaser video over and over. Btw, this beta is about 20x smoother than XI's was, and, for what its worth, I truly believe XI ended up being pretty dang close to excellent. I personally wouldnt have changed a thing
#38 Aug 21 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have an even easier to understand analogy.

If I subscribe to cable TV I can watch whatever I want, whenever I want.
If I subscribe to XM radio I can listen to whatever channel I want, whenever I want.
If I have internet access, I can visit whatever websites I want. Regardless of the website, they will load approximately the same speeds [for the moment, anyway]
If I subscribe to FFXI or WoW, I can play whatever class I want, for as long as I like.

If I pay for something, it's mine. I can use it how I want. Nobody has the right to sell you a car, and then tell you you're only allowed to drive it between 8 and 9 PM every other day. . ESPECIALLY when you are only able to drive it between 6 am and 7 PM on Saturdays and Sundays.

If I pay for a month of gametime, I expect to be able to play what I want, when I want. What if I work 4 12 hour shifts and have to use day 5 to clean the house that got neglected all week while the kids trashed it? Maybe I only get 48 a 48 hour block of time per week to play, and I want to maximize it. Who the **** is the developer to tell me "Chuck YOU, farley, you paid for a month, but you only get a few hours every two days".

And then some sheeple comatose brain dead Cletus comes along and says "wuhl. .yuh don't haz tuh buy it".

And technically, he's right. But it's frustrating as **** when you genuinely WANT to give someone your money, and the ONLY thing seemingly standing in your way is. . . the developers of the product you want to fork over the cash for.

It's that mainstream consumer religious "Worship the corporation, they deserve to run your life" mentality that drives me screaming into the depths of counter-culture. Nobody has any rights over me but me. . why should I be forced to surrender those rights everytime I want to use any product or subscribe to any service?

More importantly, why should YOU? It's the CUSTOMER that's always right, remember?

. . . sorry for the mega-rant, This is another one of those things I'm VERY passionate about. [/soapbox]

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#39 Aug 21 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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seneleron wrote:
I have an even easier to understand analogy.

If I subscribe to cable TV I can watch whatever I want, whenever I want.


True, but you can't tell your cable provider what content to play. You are paying for access to channels they provide.
seneleron wrote:
If I subscribe to XM radio I can listen to whatever channel I want, whenever I want.

True, but like the cable company, you can't tell them to air your favorite FF XIV podcast because you pay them a monthly fee. Once again, you are paying for access.
seneleron wrote:
If I have internet access, I can visit whatever websites I want. Regardless of the website, they will load approximately the same speeds [for the moment, anyway]

You pay for access to the internet, but if you notice, you can't change the websites that you visit, nor do you own the websites that you visit.
seneleron wrote:
If I subscribe to FFXI or WoW, I can play whatever class I want, for as long as I like.

You can, but you are playing by the rules set by both games. Your monthly fee gives you access to the content, but once again, you can't change the content.

seneleron wrote:
If I pay for something, it's mine. I can use it how I want. Nobody has the right to sell you a car, and then tell you you're only allowed to drive it between 8 and 9 PM every other day. . ESPECIALLY when you are only able to drive it between 6 am and 7 PM on Saturdays and Sundays.

If I pay for a month of gametime, I expect to be able to play what I want, when I want. What if I work 4 12 hour shifts and have to use day 5 to clean the house that got neglected all week while the kids trashed it? Maybe I only get 48 a 48 hour block of time per week to play, and I want to maximize it. Who the **** is the developer to tell me "Chuck YOU, farley, you paid for a month, but you only get a few hours every two days".

And then some sheeple comatose brain dead Cletus comes along and says "wuhl. .yuh don't haz tuh buy it".

And technically, he's right. But it's frustrating as **** when you genuinely WANT to give someone your money, and the ONLY thing seemingly standing in your way is. . . the developers of the product you want to fork over the cash for.

It's that mainstream consumer religious "Worship the corporation, they deserve to run your life" mentality that drives me screaming into the depths of counter-culture. Nobody has any rights over me but me. . why should I be forced to surrender those rights everytime I want to use any product or subscribe to any service?

More importantly, why should YOU? It's the CUSTOMER that's always right, remember?

. . . sorry for the mega-rant, This is another one of those things I'm VERY passionate about. [/soapbox]



Not trying to be argumentative with you, just pointing out a common notion people seem to have about this kind of thing. Paying for access to something is much different than buying something. Playing games on the internet is a privilege, and not a right. We have the right to be treated fairly in the real world, but that isn't always the case.

I'm not saying you should blindly follow the rules, and not be frustrated. I think it's good to voice your opinions, and frustrations. It's healthy for the most part. Let's just make sure that we all understand what we are voicing our opinions about.
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#40 Aug 21 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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You guys comparing stuff are right you can get what you want how you want and yet you still bound by that companies items, drinks, or rules. Just like I said you can go to all them places and get everything you want until you order something they don't serve. They aren't going to change the menu for you. They're just going to simply tell you they don't have that. If you don't like what that store has you go to another store. Just like if you don't like what this game has you go play another game. I like playing Halo I don't like playing Call of Duty. I own both and still only play Halo. Maybe if I complain to Activision they will make a game more to my liking. When you couldn't solo on FFXI they didn't change everything. Even when they lost a lot of people to WoW they still didn't change everything for the soloer.

I'm pretty sure SE won't make you play it anyway you don't want to. They will simply let you decide if you like it or not and if you don't they will let you choose a different game of your liking. Then you can go back to WoW where you can solo what will soon be 85 to your liking.

SE is not saying you have to play it they are saying this is what they decide to go with and they hope people will give it a fair shot(which no one has yet since none of it is set in stone) and they hope people will come to like it.
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#41 Aug 21 2010 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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OP is right, this is SE's game and they know the mechanics they want to go with for this installment, fixing the bugs of the mechanics will get done, but the mechanics are here to stay. People complaining about surplus, and what not, are the same people who want to rush to cap. 10 gil says SE is trying to get the feeling of "the grind" out of the players thoughts, 10 gil that there will be so much content for this game that you won't even notice the surplus. And if you can't work with it, and get get used to the new and original system, move on and play something that suits your boring tastes. There is always a reason for everything and SE is not a rookie company that some snot nose gamer can say "SE sucks",and "what the **** is this surplus about". Come on people, SE is an old company and they know what their doing. this is their second mmo and you should at least see what they bringing to the table. Whining about it is not going to change anything. "New ideas are what change the world. Staying the same and doing the norm is lazy."(P.Waugh)
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#42 Aug 21 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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XvirusTvirus wrote:
People are still not getting it. You are not forced to play this game. The whole reason I keep saying this is NOT FFXI is because everyone expects it to be similar to 11 but it'd not 11 it's 14. If they wanted most of the same stuff then they would of just made another expansion pack.


Who said anything about us being forced to play the game? We're talking about being forced not to level the way we want. So your saying that basically SE telling us "We don't want you leveling this job anymore, go play something else" is not forcing? And who here have said "Boooo hooo, why is this game not like FFXI?"

No one wants it to be a clone of FFXI. SE doing things differently is fantastic, and I love it. But just becuase the "surplus exp" thing is different, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
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#43 Aug 21 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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seneleron wrote:
I have an even easier to understand analogy.

If I subscribe to cable TV I can watch whatever I want, whenever I want.
If I subscribe to XM radio I can listen to whatever channel I want, whenever I want.
If I have internet access, I can visit whatever websites I want. Regardless of the website, they will load approximately the same speeds [for the moment, anyway]
If I subscribe to FFXI or WoW, I can play whatever class I want, for as long as I like.

If I pay for something, it's mine. I can use it how I want. Nobody has the right to sell you a car, and then tell you you're only allowed to drive it between 8 and 9 PM every other day. . ESPECIALLY when you are only able to drive it between 6 am and 7 PM on Saturdays and Sundays.

If I pay for a month of gametime, I expect to be able to play what I want, when I want. What if I work 4 12 hour shifts and have to use day 5 to clean the house that got neglected all week while the kids trashed it? Maybe I only get 48 a 48 hour block of time per week to play, and I want to maximize it. Who the **** is the developer to tell me "Chuck YOU, farley, you paid for a month, but you only get a few hours every two days".

And then some sheeple comatose brain dead Cletus comes along and says "wuhl. .yuh don't haz tuh buy it".

And technically, he's right. But it's frustrating as **** when you genuinely WANT to give someone your money, and the ONLY thing seemingly standing in your way is. . . the developers of the product you want to fork over the cash for.

It's that mainstream consumer religious "Worship the corporation, they deserve to run your life" mentality that drives me screaming into the depths of counter-culture. Nobody has any rights over me but me. . why should I be forced to surrender those rights everytime I want to use any product or subscribe to any service?

More importantly, why should YOU? It's the CUSTOMER that's always right, remember?

. . . sorry for the mega-rant, This is another one of those things I'm VERY passionate about. [/soapbox]


I feel for you, I really do. I want to agree 100% with everything you've said...

Counterpoints:
* The company has the first and final word on HOW their product is designed to be utilized
* The company very often dictates that there will be periods of time where the product will not be available, usually under the guise of maintenance or updates
* Customers are NOT always right. When a customer states that I'm a brain-dead employee that can't help them find a product that has either been out of print for years or isn't even out yet (THOSE are the fun ones), I have an issue but accept the complaint. When a customer sneakily snags a discount sticker (or finds a product that someone else put one on) and tries to pass the product off as 50% off, the customer is most definitely NOT in the right. I could list other issues, but we're focusing on the thread of SE's attempt to try a different path.
* Payment does not always dictate ownership. There are rental payments (houses, apartments, vehicles, etc.) and access payments (websites [you know the kind], gym, doctors, etc.).
* Surrendering your rights is what you do every time you log on to the Internet, make a phone call from your home or cell phone, send your child to school, and so on and so forth. The way businesses and organizations are setup these days, rights are as easily obtained as the various pieces of paper they are printed on.
#44 Aug 21 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
No one wants it to be a clone of FFXI. SE doing things differently is fantastic, and I love it. But just becuase the "surplus exp" thing is different, doesn't mean it's a good idea.


I'm pretty sure if Square-Enix replaced all the monsters with elephants featuring pink polkadots, made the starting cities gypsy camps, and replaced all skills in the game with poking he (the OP) would still probably salute Square-Enix for being different.

Being different is good. Stupid ideas that make most people cringe is not good. These are thousands of people who are complaining like ferocious beasts that they do not like this system. The ratio of hate versus support on the beta forums is like 100/0.5. That's not good. That's not a good way to be different.

If they change it, fantastic. If they explain it more and how to alleviate it, fantastic. If it's how everyone currently imagines it to be, the game's in big trouble.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:25pm by Rjain
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#45 Aug 21 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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There is some dire logical fallacy coming from those arguing the benefits of surplus xp. All of the proposed benefits could simply be obtained by personal choice. Why must me be forced to gain "benefits", can't we simply choose to gain them, or choose not too? Frankly SE's logic on who this system will support is flawed as well. A system that is supposedly to help casual players. What about casual players who can only play one day a week, and on that day they like to grind out for 7 or 8 hours? Should these people have their limited time overseen by big brother? It all seems a bit 1984ish to me.


Honestly, I think in 6 months from now we will discover the true reason for this system. There is simply a lack of content for the game and it isn't ready for release. Most MMO's before launch market around a vast amount of new systems and content. Think back to when WoW was coming out. They were talking about instanced dungeons, battle grounds, world PvP, quests,mounts etc... and it was clear that the game had a lot of infrastructure and that many aspects of it were going to be a vast improvement over what was in the market at the time. What has SE marketed around, leves? Is that all there is in the game? Why is there a complete and utter lack of information for a game that is approximately 30 days from release? SE is releasing a canvas.... one that will be painted later.
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#46 Aug 21 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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All this brings us back to the point that we don't know what this XP thing really is. There is no official source of information that accurately describes what the surplus Xp does.

All anyone wants is to know what it does. At this point, it seems to be limiting how much you can level a particular job at one time, or how many times you can kill a mob type in a row before it doesn't give any experience, OR it is from the difference between phys level and job level.

(pardon me for using XI term job).

Understand it is frustrating to not understand. It is also frustrating when a company knows that we don't understand, and has yet to comment on the system. There aren't even any hints that I have seen. It literally just suddenly appeared for beta III.

Once we have a definitive answer, the topic can be discussed in greater detail. As for now, I'll just sit by and wait for the release date while we get mixed feedback from the community about how it affects them.
#47 Aug 21 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
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That's the problem! We should not be forced to do things, it's a game, not a job. We PAY to play these games, shouldn't we be allowed to play the way we want? If we got paid to play this game, then by all means, tell us what to do.

I don't go to a Starbucks, hand them my money and then they decide what I'm going to drink and how I'm supposed to drink it!


You are paying for what someone is bringing too you. You take it for what it is and nothing more. If they feel they have given you something that is in need of fixing, then they will fix/repair/adjust/re-touch their piece and give back to you, to use ,for the payment you are giving them, monthly, to play/use/see/touch their product. Man, there seems to be a lot of posters on these various forums that seem to have a lot of growing up to do, because if you can't understand the basic concept of what it means to rent something, then you still live at home with momma/papa, either that or your spoiled/selfish.
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#48 Aug 21 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, and just in case you didn't hear: People on the Beta forums are reporting up to 90% of surplus exp. So basically you only get 10% exp per kill. If it was a mere 10% reduction in exp or something I wouldn't mind in the slightest, but this system stops you from leveling your favourite job dead.

I am completely baffled by how people see this as a good thing...

Rustyshield wrote:
You are paying for what someone is bringing too you. You take it for what it is and nothing more. If they feel they have given you something that is in need of fixing, then they will fix/repair/adjust/re-touch their piece and give back to you, to use ,for the payment you are giving them, monthly, to play/use/see/touch their product. Man, there seems to be a lot of posters on these various forums that seem to have a lot of growing up to do, because if you can't understand the basic concept of what it means to rent something, then you still live at home with momma/papa, either that or your spoiled/selfish.


Oh I have growing up to do eh? I'll get right on that.

As for your "point", I rent a house at the moment. What if I got told that, even though I pay "per week" I am only allowed to live in the house on tuesdays and thursdays. No I don't think there's any growing up needed here.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:49pm by Tubrudi
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#49 Aug 21 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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10% EXP would be glorious to some people who are actually receiving 100% surplus.

Meaning, you get no EXP at all.

For days.

Yep, that's a fun system.
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#50 Aug 21 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well obviously SE just wants us all to start in Limsa Lominsa level every job. It's their ultimate scheme to spread communism and overthrow the United States of America starting this this game and these people. ....>.>

Guys, have you guys even considered the point that maybe this is a "BETA" and SE might not want you to PLAY the game for enjoyment at this point, but play for testing things? It's a strange concept I know, but just a thought.

It's funny, I see people on the Beta selling things for 150,000 Gil for some chain mail and I laugh. Honestly, what do you expect to gain from charging someone up the wazoo for on a beta test where the data is going to be wiped anyway? LOL

Seriously people? REALLY? really? ..... /sigh
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#51 Aug 21 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
10% EXP would be glorious to some people who are actually receiving 100% surplus.

Meaning, you get no EXP at all.

For days.

Yep, that's a fun system.




That is incredibly and unnecessarily punitive. If that type of system makes it to release, then I think SE is creating some serious setbacks for themselves. I hope for the sake of the game that they seriously consider the ramifications of such a system and how it will in effect alienate a large core of their client base.
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