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A message to those using torrent for clientFollow

#1 Aug 21 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks, it's partially because of you that the legit method doesn't work so well. How is SE going to realise what the problem is if every one uses the torrent method? Granted the SE client has major flaws (like not seeding after download etc...) however when there are 2kish (from what I've read, I refuse to download torrents on my high end rigs, my wife is only allowed to on the walmart level laptop)people leaching/seeding then that's how many people aren't assisting the proper method.

I wasn't going to make this thread, but I decided I wanted to vent.

*EDIT* You know what, those who are using the uTorrent or whatever, at the very least when you log off from playing the beta while the rest of us are still downloading tonight... turn on your official downloader and have it save to a different path. At least that way you can help show that there's an issue.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 5:34pm by PerrinofSylph
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#2 Aug 21 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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I would agree that torrent is not a good idea.
#3 Aug 21 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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So is torrent a place to put my blame on why ive been downloading this thing for 20+ hours? Seriously I opened my router ports but I need the link to the thread the tells the range again. I thought it was 55296-55551 for UDP/TCP is that correct? Also do I open all available ports or just one? Appreciate the help guys i atleast want this thing download so i can experience the ingame issues like everyone else.
#4 Aug 21 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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Yep, it's pretty typical too. SE's patcher isn't as good as it could be, but it's in no way bad it gets the job done. However when you have people say:

"Blah can't download this sh*t, use utorrent"

Then you have 70 other people go:

"Yeah Utorrent is the best, there's not even any connections on the official"

Then you have 80 more people go:

"Yeah I had better luck with Utorrent than the official"

....People then question why the official one is pretty bad..because everyone is diverting themselves from the official one making matters worse, then try to place the blame on SE, yeah they can do a few more fixes to it to streamline it, but the main problem isn't SE in this case.

Edit:

Yes that's the correct one, however with people diverting to utorrent it's still going to be a bit hard to get on the official client.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:20am by Theonehio
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#5 Aug 21 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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leomike35 wrote:
So is torrent a place to put my blame on why ive been downloading this thing for 20+ hours? Seriously I opened my router ports but I need the link to the thread the tells the range again. I thought it was 55296-55551 for UDP/TCP is that correct? Also do I open all available ports or just one? Appreciate the help guys i atleast want this thing download so i can experience the ingame issues like everyone else.


Yes and no, I'm fluctuating between 7kbs and 100kbs with all my ports opened, I'm going to guess that the slowness is SE's fault. However, that's kinda the point. Besides, what's the rush. I'd love to have this thing finished today so I can take advantage of my wife being out of the house tomorrow to play. In the end though, if this isn't noticed to be a problem now, it's going to be the same when the game is released.

As to your ports, there's a few more you should open. IIRC it's 80 and 334 UDP as well.

Also if you follow other guides on the net there is a file you open and it will say something about port forwarding failed. You need to force that number in your router as well as copying that number and using it in the FFXIV General config file that's located in your program files under the beta folder. Sorry I've had a bit to drink and don't feel comfortable writing out exactly what I did to get things to work.
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#6 Aug 21 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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How will SE know? Perhaps the 10 pages of feedback saying its awful. Perhaps the 10,000's of bug reports regarding the problem.

It was known from day 1 that after downloading the file, the patcher deletes it, leaving the people left behind SOL. This is NOT how torrenting should work.

I will use it until they block it or fix the patcher. There are no "risks", And is helping the community WAY more by seeding the download after it's done.
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#7 Aug 21 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE could remedy the whole thing by allowing other torrent clients to interact with their precious updater, instead of the tracker telling them to **** off. That way people using uTorrent/whatever could at least seed to people using the updater and everyone gets the patch faster. Making the updater use uPnP would also help instead of telling people that may have no clue what they're doing to go forward ports in their routers.

You might even get people nice enough to seed the updates permanently from their own systems. I know I would leave it up and running in my torrents to help get it out to people faster.
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#8 Aug 21 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Yep, it's pretty typical too. SE's patcher isn't as good as it could be, but it's in no way bad it gets the job done.


It IS bad though. It's slow, it's random, the download rates at high stress times are horrendous (when they should be to opposite, if they had any idea of how a torrent should actually work), and has been pointed out, once the download is finished, it's not seeding.

It does get the job done - if you want to wait for hours.

I've done both SE's downloader and uTorrent. For the little stuff, SE's patcher works just fine because they're just small files. For the big stuff, it's horrible. And we can only blame people using a third party torrent program so much - when I'm downloading a new patch on patch day, I have a hard time believing that I get less than 10 connections (local and remote combined - not even sure what that means from their point of view) for that given file.
#9 Aug 21 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
The client is broken. I don't think it is broken on all machines but I am convinced there is a hardware/software issue here for some users. I know how to use torrents. I opened all my ports. Even turned off firewall completely - hardwired into my router. Turned off the anti-virus. Zero remote connections, and no matter how many local connections it was consistently running between 3kbs and 15kbs with the occasional 40kbs for five seconds (of course it could suck between 50-60kbs in uploads off me at any one time).

It doesn't make sense to blame utorrent users - As someone who had to wait more than 28 hours for a DL that should have taken 5, max, I can understand why people would get frustrated at a certain point and give up on the SE downloader. Some people seem to not have had a problem, and they point fingers at the other users as if they are dumb and don't know how to use torrents. I am pretty sure most of us here know how to use torrents. The client is bugged.

I agree with posters who say the solution is simple - SE should seed it openly and let others do the same. If they didn't block their tracker it wouldn't matter what program people were using to update their patches because people using SE's software would get the benefit of public seeds. THIS IS HOW P2P WORKS - not by deseeding everyone who gets the program.
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#10 Aug 21 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know how it works but I'm well aware of how it doesn't work.
#11 Aug 21 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was getting 1.6MB/s from SE's program when I downloaded the client 5 days ago.

I got 650-800KB/s from uTorrent earlier today. Changed to SE's program, 750-950KB/s. Couldn't take it draining my upload bandwidth so I switched back to uTorrent, minimized, and it finished the last 30% in 10 minutes, meaning speed went over 1MB/s.

There were 2,200 leechers on the FFXIV tracker, unconnectable by those using something like uTorrent. Less than 300 leechers on DHT which were connectable by third party apps.

My point? No need to argue about the method. It's peer to peer technology. Only really reliable in places like Japan. Check back in 10 years.


Edit: Need to point out that it takes a very long time for Square's program to connect to peers. A customized torrent client can connect extremely fast, 10 peers a second instead of 5 a minute. Another reason why their program is a poor choice.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 9:17pm by DAOWAce
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#12 Aug 21 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't even get the ffxivboot.exe to launch. I don't blame anyone looking for a workaround. After seeing the 360+ pages of complaints about this problem, whether it happened on crap rigs or high end ones, I'm pretty much on my own as SE has listed no solution for this problem either.

So about torrents, if I knew which files to download to update, I totally would since I can't even get the downloader to launch. SE has to know there's a problem at this point for both my issue and the ridiculous download speeds when the beta forums are crammed with posts about it, and there are other, major forums like this one with tons of posts about it too.

I feel for those trying to do things the "correct" way, but when that doesn't work, and SE doesn't step in, it shouldn't be surprising when people do whatever they can to find a solution.
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#13 Aug 22 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Default
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
It doesn't make sense to blame utorrent users - As someone who had to wait more than 28 hours for a DL that should have taken 5, max, I can understand why people would get frustrated at a certain point and give up on the SE downloader. Some people seem to not have had a problem, and they point fingers at the other users as if they are dumb and don't know how to use torrents. I am pretty sure most of us here know how to use torrents. The client is bugged.


I just finished the download, the legit way. Been downloading since Pikko sent the keys. I agree that the downloaders broken, but if we don't stress it... It's not like this is a product we paid for, we're testing the game. If you can't get in for a few days, it doesn't cost you anything. That's all I'm saying. Also I did edit my OP to say that those who feel they have to use a torrent should maybe at least use the official downloader while they're sleeping or something just to help stress it. Then they can play their part in the complete testing process.
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#14 Aug 22 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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Im seconding the idea that its just the p2p connections being spotty in some areas. I've gotten between 1 and 1.5 MB/s down and around 2-300Kb/s up both times ive installed the beta. I had to wait like 5 or 10 minutes for the program to figure out what it was doing and leave my computer naked online in DMZ host mode, but everything worked out fine.
A simple and sneaky way to fix this no seeds problem would be to have everyone seeding while playing constantly, but im sure many people would be upset about that if they have a capped upload amount.
#15 Aug 22 2010 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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#16 Aug 22 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Redyoshi wrote:


I did say partially ^.^ And I know that it was my choice to do it the long 'n hard way. And once again I know SE is mostly to blame for whatever features the official DLer is lacking.
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#17 Aug 22 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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The official downloader was bad before anyone made a separate torrent for the game.

Just saying, since day one of the alpha it has sucked. You just never heard about it because the NDA was tighter.

Now if SE was really smart, they'd be offering the torrent themselves, so people could download it there instead of through the game client if they wished. Their torrent-like option isn't all that smart of an idea considering it only runs when people are leeching.



Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 11:16am by bsphil
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#18 Aug 22 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
More of this sh*t Smiley: oyvey

1) SE knows DLer doesn't work worth a ****, beta forums have been very vocal about it and they've made posts acknowledging it
2) The beta site has guides for using utorrent with the torrent files SE provides (people didn't need to search for a torrent, the official game comes with the utorrent usable file), if SE cared about utorrent they shouldn't keep that info up and should use a different/protected format for sharing
2) More people using official DLer doesn't help if the DLer doesn't seed when it should
3) Thousands of people sitting around not testing doesn't help anyone, it just frustrates players and denies SE information
4) "If you don't fix this people are going to use other software" is a test result whether you or SE chooses to admit it

Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 12:38pm by shintasama
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#19 Aug 22 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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So I should wait the 20 days that their updater estimates my download at? It was at .1% for 2 HOURS!

Yeah i kinda agree that they need people testign the beta, but I can still post my experience on the beta forum site and they can still be notified of the problem and the details surrounding it. Me not downloading the beta at all though isnt helping anyone.
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#20 Aug 22 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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even if we all used the official one, it'd still be stupidly slow. for starters very few people know how to set up their ports properly to allow for it to get a decent number of connections and secondly the program is very poorly programmed for torrents. you should just give up and join us. especially if SE decide to keep the program for the official release (god i hope they don't o.0).. you can either wait for days on end to get the updates done or you can get it done in a few hours.
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#21 Aug 22 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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We all did use the official one. It was no different. I've downloaded every test client. People seed with Utorrent, people cannot seed with the SE installer. Thus, the utorrent method is better.

Anyone with a good connection will finish with SE's stuff in about an hour to 5 hours max. Then they stop sharing. that leaves no one with a good connection to upload. I'll sit there with 0 DL and 250kb/s upload for hours on end waiting for information from people, but no one seems to be able to upload.

Again, SE's installer sucked from the start. it is not because everyone used a torrent. It's because it was never fixed to allow for seeding, or to force people to share, or anything. In other words, it sucked. It still sucks, and it shall continue sucking.
#22 Aug 22 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor shintasama wrote:
3) Thousands of people sitting around not testing doesn't help anyone, it just frustrates players and denies SE information
4) "If you don't fix this people are going to use other software" is a test result whether you or SE chooses to admit it


Fair enough.

However I was under the impression that they'd meddled with the downloader between alpha and beta, but it was random nda breaking info at the time I came across the posts that said as much. So most likely not reliable (or useful) at all... like half the stuff on the official beta forum.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 7:06pm by PerrinofSylph
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#23 Aug 22 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Well to solve the problem for myself, I port forwarded the above mentioned port ranges. I turn on DMZ for my computer in the router. I also disabled the Windows Firewall and the router firewall just for this download. I'm sure some of the steps probably could have been avoided however it seems to have fixed the problem for me. Currently 58 remote connections and 2 local connections 300Kb/s download and about 100Kb/s upload. I also enabled UPnP on the router.

I have not tried the uTorrent route though I was going to if I didn't get the above solution to work. Download should be done in about 1-2 hours.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 4:23pm by Excenmille
#24 Aug 22 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh yeah you're also forgetting the fact some users physically can't use SE's downloader, because if their upload hits anything above 5kbps their download will drop to 1kbps all around, inside the patcher and out.

There's not direct download option either, which people have already asked for. Fortunately you can ofset this in utorrent by setting a custom upload speed, where you can seed when your connection isn't in use.
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#25 Aug 22 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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There's not direct download option either,

This is what irked me. In xi updates were ddl only and it was great unless you were doing it when thousands of other people were doing it. So we complained that we wanted a p2p download. Come xi beta what does SE do? Give us p2p download and get rid of the ddl. Typical of SE. Smiley: lol
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#26 Aug 22 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
MetalSmith wrote:

Again, SE's installer sucked from the start. it is not because everyone used a torrent. It's because it was never fixed to allow for seeding, or to force people to share, or anything. In other words, it sucked. It still sucks, and it shall continue sucking.
\\

Well said - and look at how what people have been saying above vindicates me - there are people who have no problem and get better than utorrent speeds because those of us for whom this software doesn't work are uploading three times as much as we are downloading. This isn't a case of people not knowing how to use torrents. This is a case of hardware/software incompatibility and a sh*tty downloader.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 7:36pm by Olorinus
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#27 Aug 23 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Part of the problem is it works fine on some machines for no apparent reason. I was averaging 1.5M using the SE loader on the east coast.

Is it possible that the downloader gets traffic shapped by certain ISPs?

I am on verizon fios and it works fine. Is anyone on fios having problems?

#28 Aug 23 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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I believe they have fixed (or replaced) the P2P downloader.

After downloading for 30+ hours I finally figured out how to open the ports. Was done after that in ~5 hours. BUT, I had a corrupted file. At this point I was too worn out to be mad so I unistalled and started from scratch.

Instead of going to the P2P screen, it sent me to a new purple screen with a short (10 min) P2P download followed by what appeared to be a regular straight download. New screen, white with two greens bars. Took only 1 hour from start to finish.

My guess is Phase 3 was mainly for the downloader, and they decided to replace it sometime between Saturday and Sunday. Anyone can verify this?


Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 12:26pm by RufuSwho
#29 Aug 23 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Default
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Excenmille wrote:
I have not tried the uTorrent route though I was going to if I didn't get the above solution to work. Download should be done in about 1-2 hours.


You'll love the last 5% then, another flaw in the downloader IMO. The end bit doesn't have any seeders since they're all done downloading.

I've been downloading the game while we're sleeping on a laptop that can't run it for the past few days. It's at 70% on the second run through. I just delete it and download again, hopefully it helps folks who are against torrents (yes I understand that the official Beta downloader is a torrent).

ditx wrote:
Oh yeah you're also forgetting the fact some users physically can't use SE's downloader, because if their upload hits anything above 5kbps their download will drop to 1kbps all around, inside the patcher and out.

There's not direct download option either, which people have already asked for. Fortunately you can ofset this in utorrent by setting a custom upload speed, where you can seed when your connection isn't in use.


Didn't know that, it's a shame the official Beta forums are so hard to navigate and find useful information.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 4:32pm by PerrinofSylph
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#30 Aug 23 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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i just started the client download tonight using the ffxiv method (no torrent) and its going by quite fast. 1st file is 80% done after 30min and my DL speed is 850kbs-1mb.

My speednet test is 13mb dl and 1mb ul.

Local connections around 0-2
Remote connections 58-60

I'm in NE USA
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