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An interesting little problemFollow

#1 Aug 22 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
So, I normally stick with making male characters in MMOs, both because I am a male after all, plus I like the character name I use, Tannim. Except now, in the beta, I am finding myself enjoying playing as a Miqo'te more then the Elezen I made. Anyone else noticing an attracting to a race you didn't expect?
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#2 Aug 22 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
ukikithemonkey wrote:
So, I normally stick with making male characters in MMOs, both because I am a male after all, plus I like the character name I use, Tannim. Except now, in the beta, I am finding myself enjoying playing as a Miqo'te more then the Elezen I made. Anyone else noticing an attracting to a race you didn't expect?


Unfortunately you are suffering from the early signs of manthra-ism, I would suggest refraining from playing the game, looking at screen shots, talking about the game, or even going on the internet.

It may seem like a small problem, playing a female character in game, but I promise it won't be long before you are strapping a fake tail on and trying to hide it in your pants while you are at work.

God speed
#3 Aug 22 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I dig the multi-colored tails on the miqo'te and I love the running animation for the lalafell...cracks me up...I've also grown a bit attached to the duskwight elezen I made, which I went with since I plan to be a hellsguard roegadyn come september 22nd.

I'm also finding some changes to my overall plan...I didn't expect to like fishing as much as I do, and while I planned to do weaving, I'm liking the other gathering classes much more than the crafting ones. Decisions, decisions...
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#4 Aug 22 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
So, I normally stick with making male characters in MMOs, both because I am a male after all, plus I like the character name I use, Tannim. Except now, in the beta, I am finding myself enjoying playing as a Miqo'te more then the Elezen I made. Anyone else noticing an attracting to a race you didn't expect?


Unfortunately you are suffering from the early signs of manthra-ism, I would suggest refraining from playing the game, looking at screen shots, talking about the game, or even going on the internet.

It may seem like a small problem, playing a female character in game, but I promise it won't be long before you are strapping a fake tail on and trying to hide it in your pants while you are at work.

God speed


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#5 Aug 22 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
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After seeing some god awful images of male Hyur midlanders smiling toothily, I was planning on playing a Lalafell; after playing both races, I realized it is possible to make a Hyur that doesn't appear mentally off-kilter and that Lalafell males look somewhat like little rat-people, so now I'm leaning back toward making a Hyur. Their emotes are generally terrible, especially in comparison to the incredible Lalafell emotes, but the Hyur I made for beta fits the image I had in mind to a tee, so... It's gonna come down to adorable versus awesome. I haven't played a Miqo'te yet, though -- maybe the tail will sway me in yet another direction... At least I know I don't want to make a Roegadyn or an Elezen. :s
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#6 Aug 22 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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In FFXI I was a male Hume because I didn't want to be a Mithra.

However I liked the animations, movement, armor and looks of the Mithra; I just didn't want to be a girl.

Ironically, now I'm going to be a Miqote, but the movements and animations of the Hyur are WAY better than FFXI.

If SE ever releases a Ninja or true Thief class, then a Miqote will best suit those classes IMO.
#7 Aug 22 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
It looks as though I am doomed then, as I can not give up the net due to school. Anyone able to recommend a good place to buy a nice fluffy tail so I can be prepared?
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#8 Aug 22 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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w34v3r wrote:
After seeing some god awful images of male Hyur midlanders smiling toothily, I was planning on playing a Lalafell; after playing both races, I realized it is possible to make a Hyur that doesn't appear mentally off-kilter and that Lalafell males look somewhat like little rat-people, so now I'm leaning back toward making a Hyur. Their emotes are generally terrible, especially in comparison to the incredible Lalafell emotes, but the Hyur I made for beta fits the image I had in mind to a tee, so... It's gonna come down to adorable versus awesome. I haven't played a Miqo'te yet, though -- maybe the tail will sway me in yet another direction... At least I know I don't want to make a Roegadyn or an Elezen. :s


I prefer the mentally off-kilter look so I might have to look into that...the roegadyn & elezen are proud peoples man, don't be racialist!
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#9 Aug 22 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
Kierk wrote:
In FFXI I was a male Hume because I didn't want to be a Mithra.

However I liked the animations, movement, armor and looks of the Mithra; I just didn't want to be a girl.

Ironically, now I'm going to be a Miqote, but the movements and animations of the Hyur are WAY better than FFXI.

If SE ever releases a Ninja or true Thief class, then a Miqote will best suit those classes IMO.


You know, people keep talking about the animations between races, and maybe its just that I have not gotten anyone that high yet, but honestly, they all seem to fight about the same too me.
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#10 Aug 22 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Default
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The only good looking races in this game are Miqote, Highlander, and Roegadyn. The rest are poorly mutated uglies that pale in comparison to their FFXI couter-parts. I don't like being a hulking giant though, so I went with Miqote.
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#11 Aug 22 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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The only good looking races in this game are Miqote, Highlander, and Roegadyn. The rest are poorly mutated uglies that pale in comparison to their FFXI couter-parts. I don't like being a hulking giant though, so I went with Miqote.


I think every race looks better. Especially Lalafell, I like that they aren't a bunch of brown nosers lol.
#12 Aug 22 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I think this has more to do with emotes, than fighting animations.

Miqo'te furious and Meh are by far my favorite 2 so far lol.
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#13 Aug 22 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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The only good looking races in this game are Miqote, Highlander, and Roegadyn. The rest are poorly mutated uglies that pale in comparison to their FFXI couter-parts. I don't like being a hulking giant though, so I went with Miqote.

Highlander? You mean the Mickey Rourke look-alikes? Yeah, man, that's attractiveness at its best; I couldn't watch The Wrestler for more than 2 minutes, Rourke was just that smoking. And the only thing better-looking than a Rourke imitation is the Green Giant in clothes too small for him.

:p

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Miqo'te furious and Meh are by far my favorite 2 so far lol.

Two words: Lalafell. Joy.
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#14 Aug 22 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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I was gonna be male highlander but my mi'quote is much much better, I love playing as mi'qos.
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#15 Aug 22 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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I played FFXI for a fairly long time as a Hume F (as you can probably tell from my signature). At the time I made my character, I didn't really have any intention of considering other races (since I wanted the neutral stats and the leads in FF games are always human). My sister had suggested Mithra, since my nickname was Kitty, but I didn't really consider it as I was too deadset on Hume.

However, my boyfriend got really attached to Mithra after having played one for 7 years and he plans to re-create his FFXI character in FFXIV as a Miqo'te. That at the very least made me consider Miqo'te, though I still thought they looked too childish and not quite as pretty as the Hyur... I was trying to convince myself that having a tail and cat ears was a fair trade for that (and you know, it kinda is...). However, as time went on and I saw the character creation process for Miqo'te (not all seem childish, and many are downright lovely!), I've changed my mind in a big way. The tail and cat ears thing is just icing on the cake! I won't even be looking at other races; I'm clicking straight to the Miqo'te. I even know what I want her to look like. :)
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#16 Aug 22 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Default
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ukikithemonkey wrote:
I am finding myself enjoying playing as a Miqo'te


this

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 1:39am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#17 Aug 22 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
am finding myself enjoying playing as a Miqo'te more then the Elezen I made


Anyone notice the Elezen are a bit feminine? My wife wont play one because she thinks they're a bit too girly.

Edit: While on the subject of races, I was going to play a Lalafel... but they creep me out now.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 12:41am by Castrophany
#18 Aug 22 2010 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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*Decides to take a cheap shot at Elezen users*

Wait a minute Catrophany..... You sure your wife didn't select male, instead of female Elezen?



Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 12:56am by Humster
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#19 Aug 22 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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I think it was their initial stance once you press the Elezen button when you chose the race, but even so, progressing down the customization page doesn't man them up even a little.
#20 Aug 22 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Idk ether =\ as both my name & playing the smallest race in mmorpg are my mmo trademarks but i always tho armor lookd best on mithra on ffxi so i still might go miqo'te
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#21 Aug 22 2010 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyone notice the Elezen are a bit feminine? My wife wont play one because she thinks they're a bit too girly.

Edit: While on the subject of races, I was going to play a Lalafel... but they creep me out now.


Poise, it's called Poise.

I wanted to make a Hyur, but now I'm leaning towards Elezen since there are no decent long hair styles for Hyur, and unless you go Highlander, the males look kinda weak.
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#22 Aug 23 2010 at 4:12 AM Rating: Decent
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i just saw your point about elezen being feminine, that's kind of funny, they dont look so with a big a$$ bow or a *%*$ off lance, but maybe with a teeny wand or a sword and board which don't quite make to size of the towering monstrocity that is Elezen.

A-men, no, A-elezen :) and A-rcher for deathly dmg.
#23 Aug 23 2010 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I just just go with who looks best with red hair and green eyes. Right now I'm a Hume male but I'll wait until release to finalize, hoping they give us a lot more customization choices, especially hair styles :D

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 7:33am by Redyoshi

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 7:34am by Redyoshi
#24 Aug 23 2010 at 5:58 AM Rating: Decent
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ukikithemonkey wrote:
So, I normally stick with making male characters in MMOs, both because I am a male after all, plus I like the character name I use, Tannim. Except now, in the beta, I am finding myself enjoying playing as a Miqo'te more then the Elezen I made. Anyone else noticing an attracting to a race you didn't expect?


Y'know, I can relate to that. Miqo'te look, act, and run so much better than their FFXI counterparts. In pretty much every game I play I take on the role of a male character since I am one. Female characters are played too, but much less often and normally only as secondary to the main. I've only recently broken that tradition by making a female character as my main in Dragon Quest IX.

Currently in beta I'm once again playing the role of a male character (Midlander Hyur) but come the real game I'm still on the fence if my main will either still be a male Hyur or a Miqo'te. It might seem odd since I'm also a roleplayer but I've RP'd as both genders so that really isn't a concern of mine. For the OP I can only say go with whatever tickles your fancy. If I do choose to go with a Miqo'te as my main I may even go with the route of RPing it as a male (Dude'te if you will.) disguised as a female...
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#25 Aug 23 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
So, I normally stick with making male characters in MMOs, both because I am a male after all, plus I like the character name I use, Tannim. Except now, in the beta, I am finding myself enjoying playing as a Miqo'te more then the Elezen I made. Anyone else noticing an attracting to a race you didn't expect?


Unfortunately you are suffering from the early signs of manthra-ism, I would suggest refraining from playing the game, looking at screen shots, talking about the game, or even going on the internet.

It may seem like a small problem, playing a female character in game, but I promise it won't be long before you are strapping a fake tail on and trying to hide it in your pants while you are at work.

God speed




Humster wrote:
*Decides to take a cheap shot at Elezen users*

Wait a minute Catrophany..... You sure your wife didn't select male, instead of female Elezen?



Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 12:56am by Humster


Both of these made me LOL. I agree that the Miqo'tes are more pleasing to the eye to look at but I'm a guy so naturally looking at a girl is more pleasing then looking at a guy, But, on the same note I'm a guy there fore I'm going to play a guy. This is probly why I treated all characters on ffxi as a male, never know who is lurking on the other side of the mithra face....
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#26 Aug 23 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
It may seem like a small problem, playing a female character in game, but I promise it won't be long before you are strapping a fake tail on and trying to hide it in your pants while you are at work.


Is it serious then that I've permanently glued a pair of cat ears to my head and dyed my skin a darker tan? Or that I roll all my r's and purr when I'm happy? I just thought that was something every RPG fan does.

On a true note however, I really did want to cosplay as a Mithran male at an anime convention one year... Of course it never happened since I decided to go with something easier, and less messy...
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#27 Aug 23 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I was "against" the male playing female char in XI. No real reason, just didnt think it was the way to go. I made an elf as Ive done in every game where there was an elf option. But since I played the beta and for game release I decided that I wasnt going to be elf this time I would be Hyur, but as noted in an earlier post I thought they were the least "positively enhanced" version of their FFXI counterparts, so I made a Lala. After a few levels I really liked the way the Miqotes actions and gear fit with the game so I said ***** it Im making a cat. I actually enjoy this character more, and am seriously debating if I will be one of the guy gamers playing a female character... Kind of wish they would have introduced a male version of the Miqote so it wouldnt feel... awkward.. (to me atleast) but maybe im thinking too much into this
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#28 Aug 23 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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edge1006 wrote:
I was "against" the male playing female char in XI. No real reason, just didnt think it was the way to go. I made an elf as Ive done in every game where there was an elf option. But since I played the beta and for game release I decided that I wasnt going to be elf this time I would be Hyur, but as noted in an earlier post I thought they were the least "positively enhanced" version of their FFXI counterparts, so I made a Lala. After a few levels I really liked the way the Miqotes actions and gear fit with the game so I said ***** it Im making a cat. I actually enjoy this character more, and am seriously debating if I will be one of the guy gamers playing a female character... Kind of wish they would have introduced a male version of the Miqote so it wouldnt feel... awkward.. (to me atleast) but maybe im thinking too much into this


I think the only reason I would make a Miqo'te is if my Retainer can be one. They say *** sells so I'd rather have a Miqo'te standing around selling my goods rather then some guy.
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#29 Aug 23 2010 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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RSquires wrote:
edge1006 wrote:
I was "against" the male playing female char in XI. No real reason, just didnt think it was the way to go. I made an elf as Ive done in every game where there was an elf option. But since I played the beta and for game release I decided that I wasnt going to be elf this time I would be Hyur, but as noted in an earlier post I thought they were the least "positively enhanced" version of their FFXI counterparts, so I made a Lala. After a few levels I really liked the way the Miqotes actions and gear fit with the game so I said ***** it Im making a cat. I actually enjoy this character more, and am seriously debating if I will be one of the guy gamers playing a female character... Kind of wish they would have introduced a male version of the Miqote so it wouldnt feel... awkward.. (to me atleast) but maybe im thinking too much into this


I think the only reason I would make a Miqo'te is if my Retainer can be one. They say *** sells so I'd rather have a Miqo'te standing around selling my goods rather then some guy.

My Roegadyn in phase 2 had a female Hyur retainer. Pretty sure you're not limited to your own race when it comes to retainers.
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#30 Aug 23 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Ralrra wrote:
RSquires wrote:
edge1006 wrote:
I was "against" the male playing female char in XI. No real reason, just didnt think it was the way to go. I made an elf as Ive done in every game where there was an elf option. But since I played the beta and for game release I decided that I wasnt going to be elf this time I would be Hyur, but as noted in an earlier post I thought they were the least "positively enhanced" version of their FFXI counterparts, so I made a Lala. After a few levels I really liked the way the Miqotes actions and gear fit with the game so I said ***** it Im making a cat. I actually enjoy this character more, and am seriously debating if I will be one of the guy gamers playing a female character... Kind of wish they would have introduced a male version of the Miqote so it wouldnt feel... awkward.. (to me atleast) but maybe im thinking too much into this


I think the only reason I would make a Miqo'te is if my Retainer can be one. They say *** sells so I'd rather have a Miqo'te standing around selling my goods rather then some guy.

My Roegadyn in phase 2 had a female Hyur retainer. Pretty sure you're not limited to your own race when it comes to retainers.


Nice, thanks for the update.
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#31 Aug 23 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Speaking of retainers, isn't it the chick next to baderon who sets those up? All she ever says to me is something like "come back later I'm busy"...
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#32 Aug 23 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
TwistedOwl wrote:
Speaking of retainers, isn't it the chick next to baderon who sets those up? All she ever says to me is something like "come back later I'm busy"...


I think they are down right now, I can't even get into the market ward.
#33 Aug 23 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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I can't play the opposite *** in game, its too weird and confusing lol
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#34 Aug 23 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Speaking of retainers, isn't it the chick next to baderon who sets those up? All she ever says to me is something like "come back later I'm busy"...


Curreclty either glitched or tunred off for repairs

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 7:32pm by Puppy1
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#35 Aug 23 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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I played a Female Elvaan in XI, so I just wanted to play something different. I don't like giant races or tiny races and I don't like Humans, so I went with the only thing left, Miqo'te
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#36 Aug 23 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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Dunno why so many males are anti-female character.

The first time I played a female character on a game, a bunch of other players randomly gave me really powerful items for no reason, they didn't even say anything.

It was awesome.

Not that this always happens or anything, but you never know what will happen just because your character has boobs.
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#37 Aug 23 2010 at 7:22 PM Rating: Excellent
I played a mithra in XI, never really thought about it. I got burned out on the elf thing back in my DnD days so no elezen. The roegadyn look mean but I have a friend that always plays the biggest race in any game since he's a behemoth of a human being so he relates. The lalafell look cool, and I did have a taru for awhile but being belt buckle high started to wear after awhile. Hyur, meh. No opinion either way, but I really like the miqo'te emotes I've seen.
#38 Aug 24 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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SamusKnight wrote:


Y'know, I can relate to that. Miqo'te look, act, and run so much better than their FFXI counterparts.


No they don't. They look and act like generic catgirl maids.

And I liked the noses on mithras.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#39 Aug 24 2010 at 3:04 AM Rating: Decent
Lobivopis wrote:
SamusKnight wrote:


Y'know, I can relate to that. Miqo'te look, act, and run so much better than their FFXI counterparts.


No they don't. They look and act like generic catgirl maids.

And I liked the noses on mithras.


That's a matter of opinion. For me I think it does look better. I liked the Mithra on FFXI but didn't care for their walk or running motions. Using a /panic emote was really odd of course but kind of funny in a way too. OK, there were some motions that FFXI had I prefer over FFXIV and the noses on Mithra did make them look more catlike, but I still prefer Miqo'te over Mithra. And technically there IS a face that resembles their Mithran counterparts. Face 4 has a darker nose and appearance like FFXI's Mithra had. My only true rant about Miqo'te has to be the available voices. The first is alright, but the second and third sound like energetic little girls. Here's hoping they only used Japanese voices player characters for the beta and we'll see some better voice options in the retail version.
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#40 Aug 24 2010 at 5:20 AM Rating: Good
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You know, I was planning to start as a lalafell, but after making an elezen I got hooked and now it's all I wanna play!
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#41 Aug 24 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
See I made a Roegadyn and I do like it but I am used to playing taru and I can't figure out the camera angles (can anyone help) so I am reconsidering because I don't want to have so many issues actually seeing crap.

But I don't want to play a hyur because they are boring - elezen are just as tall and I don't want to play lalafell because I always hated how I couldn't really see half the gear I put on because I was so tiny so I lost out on that gear details (when I put a ring on my roegadyn - it is really obvious in FFXIV)
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#42 Aug 24 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
in conclusion I was considering playing miquote but I don't really want to play the most popular race either...
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#43 Aug 24 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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And I liked the noses on mithras.


You can get that nose on miqo'te.
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#44 Aug 24 2010 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Does the Mithra-esque Miqo'te nose actually have the "cat nose" part of it? Or is it just a darker-toned human nose? Because I know the Mithra in FFXI actually had the full-out "heart-shaped" cat nose/nostrils, it wasn't just darker.

Are Miqo'te really expected to be that much more popular in 14 than they were in 11? It seemed like in 11, the overall race popularity was something like: Hume > Tarutaru > Mithra > Elvaan > Galka. Edit: According to the "census" information anyway, though it seems that at one point Tarutaru actually overtook Hume, and Elvaan were more popular than Mithra.

Edited, Aug 24th 2010 2:48pm by Kaelia88
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#45 Aug 24 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Speaking of retainers, isn't it the chick next to baderon who sets those up? All she ever says to me is something like "come back later I'm busy"...


I think they are down right now, I can't even get into the market ward.


She finally let me get my retainer today, not that it does much good now...but it's nice to have done it...
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#46 Aug 24 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Kaelia88 wrote:
Are Miqo'te really expected to be that much more popular in 14 than they were in 11? It seemed like in 11, the overall race popularity was something like: Hume > Tarutaru > Mithra > Elvaan > Galka. Edit: According to the "census" information anyway, though it seems that at one point Tarutaru actually overtook Hume, and Elvaan were more popular than Mithra.


There are a whoppingly staggering number of Miqo'te. Just to take a sample size, I'm going to log in and list people I see as I see them (forgive the XI terms, it's faster for me to think in XI)

This is players in Wench and Bearded Rock, in Ultimecia, at 4:10 PM EDT 8/24.

Mit Tar Mit Mit Hum Mit Mit Hum Hum Elv Gal Mit Mit Hum Mit Hum Ele Ele Mit Hum Hum Mit Mit Tar Mit Tar Tar Hum Mit Tar Elv

And logging out, so my total was:

13 Miqo'te
8 Hyur
5 Lalafell
4 Elezen
1 Roegadyn

As you can see, huge amount of Miqo'te. Again, small sample size, but they are very very obviously the most populous. Not sure if everyone is just getting their inner Neko on or if people think that Mithra's DEX in XI is carrying over to XIV or what...but there are a ******* of Miqo'te.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#47 Aug 24 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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770 posts
I like the tails :P besides Mikhailia dont you have a miqo'te too? :P
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{retired} Devalynn Mithra WHM extrodinare -Garuda (gives everyone a high paw! yeah!)

Church OF Mikhalia
#48 Aug 24 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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2,120 posts
Puppy1 wrote:
I like the tails :P besides Mikhailia dont you have a miqo'te too? :P


The tails were hypnotizing enough before, and now they made some of 'em more colorful on top of it. While standing in crowded areas I've already caught myself zoning out and focusing on some of those blue/red tails...
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#49 Aug 24 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Puppy1 wrote:
I like the tails :P besides Mikhailia dont you have a miqo'te too? :P


I was the first Mit on that list :P
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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#50 Aug 24 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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275 posts
That could be! I kind of assumed that Miqo'te might be a bit more popular in the beta just because people realize these characters get deleted and they just want the novelty of playing a cutesy cat-girl before they create their "permanent" character on release. Or maybe the fact that they're a bit more "human" this time around makes them appealing to a wider audience. Either way, our beloved cat-people going from number 4 out of 5 (sometimes number 3), to an overwhelming number 1 out of 5 is a huge jump! Bob Barker would be in tears.

And for the record, I am an ex-Hume planning on going Miqo'te on release, so maybe I'm not helping the population whack. :D
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