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Tanking in FFXIVFollow

#1 Aug 22 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I am not complaining about the game nor trying to create any form of negative projections for it's future, just some thoughts on the tanking potential of different classes without cookie cutting

While I'm all for having options, I'm so far a bit perplexed on the way tanking works in beta. I have seen gladiators, pugilists,marauders, lancers, and even a thaumaturge tanking.

The pugilist I can see as being a good evasion tank for things like xp groups or small scale missions/quests, maybe even a marauder, but a Mage? With all the different applications of the new skill mix/match system, it seems almost anything that can keep threat and self-heal can be main tank. The armor is all interchangeable thus far, so def rating goes out the window. I have been putting 2/3 of my stats into vit, since my end game goal and goal throughout the game was to be a tank (for testing purposes, I know my character will be wiped during the next phase). There are some things that I'm hoping do not repeat themselves in FFXIV.

Self Heals The reason warrior and monk were not allowed to fill their situational tank roles in FFXI is because everyone wanted a paladin. Aside from flash which generated amazing threat, the fact that paladin could self heal became the norm for tanking. If you don't have heals, we don't want you. I won't even go in to blink tanking as that was another fluke that destroyed tanking opportunities for classes other than paladin and ninja. True I'm sure most of us have tanked on our monks, warriors, or samurais (which had emnity gear), but LFG as a main spec tank? No, sorry.

Never did I expect that a monk would tank endgame (not talking about merited monks later tanking land gods, etc. that was a long time after the fact), but I wish they were given more respect as tanks, along with Samurai and Warrior. This is most likely due to the "I runz out of mps too fast and I have to rest for 5 minutes to get it back" problem. So what does SE do this time around? Take MP regen away completely along with living us with tiny pools to begin with again. Now I'm sure SE has plans for this down the road, so this is not another gripe thread. I'm over it, they'll do what they do until either we or they realize it's a good or bad thing.

Other games (not just wow) allow for straight sword & board tanking without the necessity for self preserving magic and it leads not only to having more tanking classes available, but also creates different paths for people who love tanking to take. Tanking as a self-healing paladin vs a vit monster warrior with a bit of a damaging edge adds variety to the game. Not everyone wants to tank the same way. Ninjutsu is magic, you have to cast it just like cure and although they are used differently, they achieve the same thing; less stress on the healer.

Basically my hope is that somewhere down the line in this game, tanks will emerge and not just be a cookie cutter level 50 Glad/Conj/Mar/Tham combo. I guess the only way to achieve this would be to include non magical tanking abilities that rival the use of magic or buff up healers to be able to handle the load. As someone who wants to tank like a real gladiator would, I'm gunning for this possibility.

Any thoughts?

*btw I'm positive the current DoM won't be tanking end game or other serious endeavors. I am not putting them down for doing so, do whatever works. I was just surprised at how the game is currently functioning in that respect.



Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 10:08pm by GuardianFaith
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#2 Aug 23 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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Hrm... I'm going to have to disagree about people wanting a paladin for self heals. While a pld having a self cure in a pinch was pretty sweet, cure spells (particularly Cure IV) were dropped not for extra heals but for the huge enmity they generated. Paladin was a better overall tank /war and eventually /nin because of all the damage mitigating tools they had at their disposal as well as a veritable battery of hate generation they could pump out. A pld was very much a burst hate class - and once they had it, it was really hard to tear it off them. (Unless you were a blm). While the self cure was handy, if the pld HAD to cure themselves regularly or a healer relied on a pld being able to heal themselves, there was something wrong with the healer (I had both rdm and whm at 75 before I quit and never let a pld heal himself unless I was oom).

Regardless, we'll have to wait and see what SE has in store for agro mechanics. I've yet to get into a party nor get my glad past rank 11, but my understanding is that hate is VERY tenuous, especially for mages. I think hate shedding or transferring abilities are going to be key, and self cures. With the magic system the way it is currently, it's totally necessary for other classes to be able to heal themselves. Mages can't do it consistently at this point.

I'd personally like to see glad not have to be a paladin. I don't want to have to burn MP. I want to see people shed their stereotypes from FFXI. I'd like to be a sword and board warrior with a few tricks up my sleeve from various classes to further minimize my damage beyond my shield block and gain some hp back. A gladiator in my mind stands toe to toe with his enemy, takes a beating, and moves on to the next fight a little battered, a little bruised, but tough as nails. He doesn't need spells; he survives with his weapon skill and sheer desire to survive. More of a mix of glad/pug/maur.
#3 Aug 23 2010 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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I read your post a few times and I'm not sure exactly sure what your concerned about.
I'm assuming that the entire post is about tanking at lower levels so please keep that in mind.

Quote:
While I'm all for having options, I'm so far a bit perplexed on the way tanking works in beta. I have seen gladiators, pugilists,marauders, lancers, and even a thaumaturge tanking.

The pugilist I can see as being a good evasion tank for things like xp groups or small scale missions/quests, maybe even a marauder, but a Mage?

One of the things that sucked about FFXI was that there were situations when you needed a dedicated tank and there none around. Out of all the jobs SE released you had only two that were solid tanks in these situations and this created an improportionate ratio of jobs available and made it much harder to make a party.
I don't know if I would want to tank on some of these jobs, but more flexibility is not a bad thing.

Another thing you have to remember though is that the cap is still pretty low, if you remember FFXI a lot of jobs could tank at lower levels, things might change quite a bit as the cap is raised.
Quote:
Self Heals The reason warrior and monk were not allowed to fill their situational tank roles in FFXI is because everyone wanted a paladin.

Ok, you don't like that so many jobs can tank so easily but you didn't like how in FFXI everyone wanted PLD and NIN when they needed a dedicated tank?

The reason warrior and monk weren't used so much to tank wasn't just because PLD was so good, it was because they just weren't designed well enough to compete with PLD.

Warrior had only two really good ways to maintain hate, Provoke and DPS. You never could really take advantage of defender or defensive equipment either when tanking because it put a huge hit on DPS and left you with nothing but Provoke and Warcry which had a horrible recast timer.

Monk had no means of keeping hate aside from DPS, Chakra was weak until higher levels when you got Chakra equipment and the recast was too high even with merits, the defense penalty for Counterstance was ridiculous, and I don't believe they ever made it easier to level Gaurd skill.

Sometimes if you were fighting VT monsters and had a Thief ,or a PL, you could pull it off.
Most of a time though, it just wasn't worth the headache.
Quote:
Other games (not just wow) allow for straight sword & board tanking without the necessity for self preserving magic and it leads not only to having more tanking classes available, but also creates different paths for people who love tanking to take.

Doesn't letting you use abilities on other classes kind of result in the same effect?
Any job can equip any piece of armor and even use shields right?
Quote:
Ninjutsu is magic, you have to cast it just like cure and although they are used differently, they achieve the same thing; less stress on the healer.

This made my head hurt, I had to read it several times to understand (I think?) what you meant and I still don't completely get what you mean in general.
Quote:
As someone who wants to tank like a real gladiator would, I'm gunning for this possibility.

You mean you want to be a slave and be forced to fight to the death for other peoples amusement?
I bet Maximus wished he had healing magic.

What I got from this post was:
Having too many tanking jobs is bad.
Let other jobs be better at tanking.
Using magic to tank is bad.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 6:18am by Osanshouo
#4 Aug 23 2010 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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So you don't want stuff to be cookiecutter, but you don't like the endless posibilities of tanks or the fact that they might out shine Gladiator....
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#5 Aug 23 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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Russell Crowe to Gladiator #3 wrote:
Stop pulling hate, I'm trying to tank this lion without magic!
#6 Aug 23 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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A bit OT first:

When you boil it down tanking in FFXI could be very complicated.

With PLD, the best all around choice, DD could pretty much go all out and if there was refresh then even better. However with no refresh and PLD was still a solid choice as it could still hold good hate and had great DEF and wasn't too much of a drain on healers.

With NIN, shadows saved on healing, but other DD had to hold back a bit to let the NIN maintain hate. And if the NIN got in trouble then there had to be a plan B of a round of vokes to share hate until NIN shadows were back up.

WAR and MNK were just too inefficient to allow to tank. Yes, it could be done but most people would rather wait for an optimal tank.

-----------

However...

I think the crux of the OP's argument lies in the type of play style and mob choice the community will ultimately go after:

Trying to kill the toughest monster for the most EXP (i.e. Incredibly Toughs ++) will force players to find the most optimal jobs. And the weight between downtime and EXP would be tolerable...though...

IF the players can get the most EXP (or very high EXP) in say, smaller groups and 'non-conventional' set-ups by traveling mob-to-mob, rather than camping, then I think people will gravitate towards that. (Groups would look like those in FFXII). As long as there is no downtime, it doesn't matter who tanks. And this would be preferred because, of: no need to LFG, quicker quests and an overall streamlined experience, plus I think it would be more fun. (The thing that points to this are the number of self-heals like TP to HP abilities and the like).

I think SE is trying to break away from the camp and group thing and wants a more fluid (albeit casual) experience, and is leaning toward the direction of solo/small group play. At least that what it appears to be. (The ONLY downside I could see about this bringing is the lack of a cohesive beginning community and job ignorance) Yet, its still very early and who knows maybe people will revert to camping as we are still only seeing early levels.

I'm sure in the end that groups will still play a very important part in the game. I hope there are things like the Genkei and Rank missions to be interspersed to acclimate people to real grouping (and learning how to be an effective tank) and in the end grouping can become
the norm in endgame.
#7 Aug 23 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Good
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84 posts
FFXI already had parties where everyone is a tank. TP burns.... never really enjoyed them outside of watching my xp bar.
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#8 Aug 23 2010 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
FFXI already had parties where everyone is a tank. TP burns.... never really enjoyed them outside of watching my xp bar.


This is a good point.

However, that wasn't exactly tanking, it was negating damage and keeping the monsters off the mages.
Tanking is one person maintaining hate on the monster consistently, which wasn't really possible to do with FFXI's enmity system in merit parties unless you were doing a great deal more DPS than the other members.

It depends on how FFXIV's enmity system works.
If you are able to grab hate faster and keep it while people are melting the monsters face off with massive weapon skill damage then it wont seem so boring.

Then again what is the motivation for having a dedicated tank if everyone else in the party can handle themselves.
I'm really interested in seeing what they do to balance soloing and parties.
How do you make it so someone is able to solo easily and get decent EXP, but also make it so it is still adventitious to fight in a group with a tank?

After reading your post I think I can understand the OP a little better, kind of funny that you did it in two sentences.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 6:08am by Osanshouo
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