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EXP loss when dying...Follow

#1 Aug 23 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey Guys.

Do you in this game lose exp when you die?
For me that was one of the reasons I stopped playing FFXI...

Sincerly

Thernaiel aka Petter

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 10:19am by Theraniel
#2 Aug 23 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Theraniel wrote:
Hey Guys.

Do you in this game lose exp when you die?
For me that was one of the reasons I stopped playing FFXI...

Sincerly

Thernaiel aka Petter

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 10:19am by Theraniel


Death in the beta is pretty un-punished.

When you die, you can either wait for a res (there is no res in beta) or you can return to the nearest Aetheryte node. When you return you have weakness for 3 min, weakness slows your stamina regen and lowers your hp. That is currently the only penalty for death.

edit: Also since guildleves are timed, you will sometimes fail a guildleve due to your party wiping and then waiting for everyone to rebuff and get back to the fight.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 9:27am by Lamnethx
#3 Aug 23 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
When you die, you can either wait for a res (there is no res in beta) or you can return to the nearest Aetheryte node.


You sure it's not the last Aetheryte you visited? I went to skull camp I think it is, but then died near bearded rock and ended up back at the skull camp. As usual I was drinking so may be mistaken.
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#4 Aug 23 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, it goes back to your home point, which is the last aetheryte you interacted with (it sets it automatically), so usually it's the closest, but not always.
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#5 Aug 23 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
When you die, you can either wait for a res (there is no res in beta) or you can return to the nearest Aetheryte node.


You sure it's not the last Aetheryte you visited? I went to skull camp I think it is, but then died near bearded rock and ended up back at the skull camp. As usual I was drinking so may be mistaken.


It's the last aetheryte (not sure about gateways) that you've used, it's like home point crystals in FFXI in a sense.
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#6 Aug 23 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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you left FFXI because of exp loss? really?
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#7 Aug 23 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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WaxyMilanders wrote:
you left FFXI because of exp loss? really?


As a player who constantly had less and less time to play, I found myself no longer interested because I was moving backwards or only leveling out at endgame THF with God runs and such. Ultimately I ran out of time to enjoy the game because solo wasn't efficient enough to regain the XP, so I was either spending my time farming for pop items or spending my time losing XP with wipes or links or whatever... I sure as heck wasn't getting PTs when I needed them. THF was the job I wanted to play, the other jobs I HAD to play when my LS mates weren't on if I wanted the party experience... I didn't truly enjoy most of those jobs.

All I'm saying is I can understand how a person would quit over that aspect alone. No need to be like that.
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#8 Aug 23 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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I quit for the reason Perrinof stated. You couldn't get parties, so you ended up soloing and you wiped too much, therefor I delevled alot of times and voila.

So dont attack me, I played the game for 4 years, not a week.

But the biggest problem with XI was without a doubt that there was impossible to solo. I didn't have time to wait 5 hours+ for a party.
#9 Aug 23 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Default
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I have to admit I liked the exp loss during ffxi. I feel without it there is no real fear of being KO'd. I mean sure I would get mad if I was partying and due to someones obviously stupid choice the party would be wiped out but if the puller would link by accident and the tank or puller would sacrifice themselves to keep the rest of the party alive long enough to kill the first mob it was 'honorable'. But I just feel without any really penalty there is nothing big about being KO'd. Just my opinion.
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#10 Aug 23 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I remember when I quit, I spent about 3-4 hours searching/shouting for parties for either merit, subligar/swift belt run, or ISNM run on FRIDAY, SATURDAY, AND SUNDAY with no response. I thought to myself, either people are on vacation or game is dead. Since it wasn't around a holiday, I assumed the 2nd and gave all my gear and char to LS. It's funny, cause the day I quit, Whitegate shout was very active again.

I didn't mind xp loss in XI. I did at first when I was a noob, but I learned to accept it and thought it was a decent punishment for death.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 1:23pm by Oenos
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#11 Aug 23 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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I actually like harsh death penalties. Death should not be merely a slight inconvenience. With that said I still think deleveling is taking it a bit far.
#12 Aug 23 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Default
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I still laugh that xp loss from dying seems to be the biggest complaint about FFXI. It is so minimal I don't even think about it when I die. Maybe it was worse back then, but I've been around since release and I don't ever it being a big deal. People would spend more time waiting for a Raise 2 or 3 to save 200 xp instead of just taking a Raise 1 and getting back to killing and make 1500 xp in the time they would have waited for a 2 or 3.

In Abyssea, parties make upwwards of 35k-45k an hour. A death costs you all of a couple hundred xp. The much bigger penalty is the weakness penalty.
#13 Aug 23 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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loss of xp isn't soley what demotivated me, it was leveling down and the people who played at prime time with a prime job getting crazy merits while I was recouperating lost xp from events that I enjoyed. Go ahead throw more rate downs at people because you don't agree with them.
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#14 Aug 23 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't really mind losing XP, but the deleveling part really killed it. This and long party hours are the main reason I quit xi.

When playing MMO, I like to explore different places in game, but deleveling really made me stop doing that, which I think it kills a lot of fun for playing MMO.
#15 Aug 23 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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dunlag wrote:
I didn't really mind losing XP, but the deleveling part really killed it. This and long party hours are the main reason I quit xi.

When playing MMO, I like to explore different places in game, but deleveling really made me stop doing that, which I think it kills a lot of fun for playing MMO.


I loved partying for long hours. Especially when good conversations are going on.
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#16 Aug 23 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe there is something wrong with me but I would like it if there was a real fear of death in this game. As it is you can just keep respawning and charging back in. I liked it that everyone feared death especially when there would be shouts of "train to zone" in the jungles or the crawlers nest. It made you take the game more seriously.
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#17 Aug 23 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
dunlag wrote:
I didn't really mind losing XP, but the deleveling part really killed it. This and long party hours are the main reason I quit xi.

When playing MMO, I like to explore different places in game, but deleveling really made me stop doing that, which I think it kills a lot of fun for playing MMO.


I loved partying for long hours. Especially when good conversations are going on.


My ideal time frame for party would be 30 min to look for group + arrive at the spot, then 1.5~2 hours of party. However, that almost never happen to me in xi. I always spent 1~2 hours to look for a group (that depends on my job, if I'm on my WHM, I could usually find a group within 30 min, but if I'm on my THF, it would take a while), and since I'd spent such a long time to find a group and if the group is good, we would try to play as long as we could, so usually it'll last for at least 4 hours. I was still a student when I played xi, so I had a lot of time to play, but as a married man with a regular 8-hour job, I can no longer play like that, so I'm really happy that they made xiv more causal.
#18 Aug 23 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Default
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
Go ahead throw more rate downs at people because you don't agree with them.


I know this is off topic but how can you tell if someone rates you down? Aside from rank going down.

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#19 Aug 23 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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RSquires wrote:
I have to admit I liked the exp loss during ffxi. I feel without it there is no real fear of being KO'd. I mean sure I would get mad if I was partying and due to someones obviously stupid choice the party would be wiped out but if the puller would link by accident and the tank or puller would sacrifice themselves to keep the rest of the party alive long enough to kill the first mob it was 'honorable'. But I just feel without any really penalty there is nothing big about being KO'd. Just my opinion.


I totally agree. I've played my share of MMO's, and I've noticed that I came to appreciate FFXI's penalties, due to the fact that you had to focus on the game, and not dying. There were quite a few deaths in my career (Career DRK, mob pulling on any job, exploring where I shouldn't be, etc). I did get mad here and there, but usually it was due to me doing something stupid, or the game being "cheap", or someone pulling a Noob Maneuver! But the ingame reality was: "yeah, you lost 200-400xp. As long as you were in a group that was gaining some XP, you'd make that up in no time".

BubbleGumCrisis wrote:
I actually like harsh death penalties. Death should not be merely a slight inconvenience. With that said I still think deleveling is taking it a bit far.


I agree with this point as well. The fear of deleveling was more real than just the loss of XP. Nothing says FML like dying, deleveling, and then not being able to wear the (only) gear you had on 'cause it was lv75, and now you have no gear on, hoping to leech that xp needed to re-equip. Sure, punish me for dying, let me lose 44k of XP. But not to delevel, is a nice compromise to strict penalties.
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#20 Aug 23 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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RSquires wrote:
PerrinofSylph wrote:
Go ahead throw more rate downs at people because you don't agree with them.


I know this is off topic but how can you tell if someone rates you down? Aside from rank going down.



Asked and answered. If you look at the word under your name, it will say Excellent/Good/Decent/Default/Sub-Default. If that goes up, a couple people have rated you up. If it goes down, a couple people have rated you down. 1-2 people may or may not affect it unless you were already on the edge of the next "level".

Posts used to have a numerical score next to them indicating your karma value but too many people whined when their karma would go down by .1 or even .01 that it just got annoying for the admins to have to listen to, so they hid it.
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#21 Aug 23 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I feel without it there is no real fear of being KO'd.


It's a game, about adventuring and fighting awful monsters. Why do you need to fear something that should happen fairly frequently?

Edit for clarification: Your fear in dying should be that you cannot accomplish your goal not that your character will be gutted.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 3:34pm by windexy
#22 Aug 23 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
I feel without it there is no real fear of being KO'd.


It's a game, about adventuring and fighting awful monsters. Why do you need to fear something that should happen fairly frequently?


..TECHNICALLY, you aren't supposed to die over and over and over lol. It may be a game/fantasy but in most RPs you only die once. Also no penalty leads to the:

"Ok, lets go exploring and any thing you see aggro, meh just die to it nothing bad will happen, you'll respawn close by in tip top shape anywhoo"

and

"Well there's no point in making a strategy..not like we'll get penalized if we die, rambo go! and if you die..get up and rambo again till it dies!"

It leads to people not wanting to try to make strategies of any kind. Fear of dying instills people human senses which draws you that much more into the world and more connected to your character, dying will happen in a video game..but usually because you died in the heat of a battle you couldn't handle or during a tough raid, not because you beelined it from point a-b not caring that things aggroed. It's understandable that people dislike consequences for their actions in a video game..but some should exist beyond the 3 minute weakness and XI's was not only the most fair of most MMOs, but it wasn't that bad.

**** some MMOs if you die anyone near by can take your money and equipment ONTOP of XP loss lol.
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#23 Aug 23 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
windexy wrote:
Quote:
I feel without it there is no real fear of being KO'd.


It's a game, about adventuring and fighting awful monsters. Why do you need to fear something that should happen fairly frequently?


..TECHNICALLY, you aren't supposed to die over and over and over lol. It may be a game/fantasy but in most RPs you only die once. Also no penalty leads to the:

"Ok, lets go exploring and any thing you see aggro, meh just die to it nothing bad will happen, you'll respawn close by in tip top shape anywhoo"

and

"Well there's no point in making a strategy..not like we'll get penalized if we die, rambo go! and if you die..get up and rambo again till it dies!"

It leads to people not wanting to try to make strategies of any kind. Fear of dying instills people human senses which draws you that much more into the world and more connected to your character, dying will happen in a video game..but usually because you died in the heat of a battle you couldn't handle or during a tough raid, not because you beelined it from point a-b not caring that things aggroed. It's understandable that people dislike consequences for their actions in a video game..but some should exist beyond the 3 minute weakness and XI's was not only the most fair of most MMOs, but it wasn't that bad.

**** some MMOs if you die anyone near by can take your money and equipment ONTOP of XP loss lol.


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#24 Aug 23 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
..TECHNICALLY, you aren't supposed to die over and over and over lol. It may be a game/fantasy but in most RPs you only die once. Also no penalty leads to the:

One **** of a fun GAME.

Quote:
"Ok, lets go exploring and any thing you see aggro, meh just die to it nothing bad will happen, you'll respawn close by in tip top shape anywhoo"



Other then the time lost waiting to raise and the sickness to wear....

and

Quote:
"Well there's no point in making a strategy..not like we'll get penalized if we die, rambo go! and if you die..get up and rambo again till it dies!"


Because people and their time are unlimited and self-renewing right?


Quote:
It leads to people not wanting to try to make strategies of any kind.

Similar to how massive penalties do?


Quote:
Fear of dying instills people human senses which draws you that much more into the world and more connected to your character, dying will happen in a video game..but usually because you died in the heat of a battle you couldn't handle or during a tough raid, not because you beelined it from point a-b not caring that things aggroed.


Again, there are already penalties. Time spent raising, sickness and regrouping.

Quote:
It's understandable that people dislike consequences for their actions in a video game..but some should exist beyond the 3 minute weakness and XI's was not only the most fair of most MMOs, but it wasn't that bad.


Our sense of time must be way different. Sickness may only last three minutes but failing 20 minutes into a 30 minute fight and having to start over means your going to be spending over an hour on what should be a 30 minute fight. Having to spend another 30 minutes to get XP back is double dipping. One way or the other in penalization is enough.
#25 Aug 23 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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SE should go back to super hardcore on this:

When you die your character is deleted and SE refunds your money.

...


Seriously, EXP loss was a pain, in addition to running back to camp. Although it didn't happen every time, a lot of parties disbanded after a complete wipe, in turn wasting a lot of people's time.

Yes a penalty like this does keep you on your toes, but dying itself is already inefficient. The EXP loss was just an extra twist of the knife once you've been stabbed. And the level down was a spit in the face afterwords. A return to this system will turn off a lot of n00bs and casual players.
#26 Aug 23 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
There are obviously both pluses and minuses to a penalty when dying. First and foremost, it makes the game more challenging. Not everyone will file this aspect into the same category, but for me this is definitely a plus. One of the appeals of FFXI versus other games was that you got a real sense of accomplishment out of how challenging it was. It encourages people to come up with more complex and interesting strategies in order to beat tough NMs. My favorite part, though, is the adrenaline rush you get when you are exploring new areas, not knowing if something is going to turn a corner and knock you down in two hits. It's quite thrilling to have the real sense of danger when you're trying to sneak through a cluster of monsters that are twice your level. Without the death penalty, most (perhaps not all) of that thrill is gone.
As for minuses, these are pretty obvious. Sometimes you die in really stupid, unfair ways (a monster gets a few lucky hits off, for example), and you shouldn't be penalized for that. The penalty can actually discourage some people from exploring new areas for a long time, which means they miss out on a really great aspect of mmorpgs. In fights, it can make people less likely to take risks that might have ended up paying off.
Both of these lists could go on and on, depending on who you ask (and frankly, everyone is going to have a different opinion anyway). But as for me, while I enjoyed having that penalty there, I can get just as much enjoyment out of a game without it. I'll find my own ways to push myself and have the most fun possible, and no rule or mechanic is going to keep me from that. I hope everyone else can do the same.
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#27 Aug 23 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The penalty can actually discourage some people from exploring new areas for a long time, which means they miss out on a really great aspect of mmorpgs. In fights, it can make people less likely to take risks that might have ended up paying off.


Exploring early on while things are still scary, can kick your ***, and required some skill getting around is a lot more rewarding than waiting until you know you'll be OK in an area and just stroll around..
#28 Aug 23 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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avatarofpain wrote:
There are obviously both pluses and minuses to a penalty when dying. First and foremost, it makes the game more challenging. Not everyone will file this aspect into the same category, but for me this is definitely a plus. One of the appeals of FFXI versus other games was that you got a real sense of accomplishment out of how challenging it was. It encourages people to come up with more complex and interesting strategies in order to beat tough NMs. My favorite part, though, is the adrenaline rush you get when you are exploring new areas, not knowing if something is going to turn a corner and knock you down in two hits. It's quite thrilling to have the real sense of danger when you're trying to sneak through a cluster of monsters that are twice your level. Without the death penalty, most (perhaps not all) of that thrill is gone.
As for minuses, these are pretty obvious. Sometimes you die in really stupid, unfair ways (a monster gets a few lucky hits off, for example), and you shouldn't be penalized for that. The penalty can actually discourage some people from exploring new areas for a long time, which means they miss out on a really great aspect of mmorpgs. In fights, it can make people less likely to take risks that might have ended up paying off.
Both of these lists could go on and on, depending on who you ask (and frankly, everyone is going to have a different opinion anyway). But as for me, while I enjoyed having that penalty there, I can get just as much enjoyment out of a game without it. I'll find my own ways to push myself and have the most fun possible, and no rule or mechanic is going to keep me from that. I hope everyone else can do the same.


You're right.

When I was soloing either my Level 65? level break, or AF (I forget) in Castle Oztroja I was scared out of my @$$. However those were the most exciting times!

Yet I don't know if I would be more scared with or without the death penalty. The trek there was already 5-10minutes. Hrm...
#29 Aug 23 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anyone who didn't mind losing exp in FFXI probably didn't play BLM. I didn't, but I always felt sorry for our BLMs who not only lose more exp than anyone else when doing LS activities (besides maybe the tanks or sac pullers), but also having to resort to soloing or partying with other BLM at limited locations to get it back. PLD and BLM are usually jobs of choice at events, but they are at the bottom of the totem pole when it came to exp at 75.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 4:22pm by Harri
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#30 Aug 23 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem in XI wasn't EXP loss, IMO it was a good thing.

If you've played WAR or even the Beta of XIV (which is different, because hopefully it will change) then you know what the lack of fear does.

Deleveling on the other hand is a bad thing. Unless equipment can scale withing a 5 level scale or something.
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#31 Aug 23 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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windexy wrote:
Exploring early on while things are still scary, can kick your ***, and required some skill getting around is a lot more rewarding than waiting until you know you'll be OK in an area and just stroll around..


Like fighting a Goat Nanny that cons Green and getting 2 shotted?

I shoulda known better :p They were Red 1 level prior.

I haven't figured it out yet, but I think in the Beta tha Con system works until a certain level. When I hit 7 Maurader 9 Physical things started conning wrong. I'm 4-5 shotting reds and dying to yellows, greens, and the occasional blue.
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#32 Aug 23 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Deleveling on the other hand is a bad thing.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Sadly, that's not something they'll change in XI nor something we have to worry about in XIV.

Quote:
I haven't figured it out yet, but I think in the Beta tha Con system works until a certain level. When I hit 7 Maurader 9 Physical things started conning wrong. I'm 4-5 shotting reds and dying to yellows, greens, and the occasional blue.

It's true that we still don't have all the details on this system, but I think part of it may be an error in the game itself. There are still a lot of bugs in there, so this may be one of them. I've been experiencing similar issues myself. I hesitate to attribute problems to the game itself rather than accepting failure, but either way we will have to wait and see what happens.
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#33 Aug 23 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
Yes a penalty like this does keep you on your toes, but dying itself is already inefficient. The EXP loss was just an extra twist of the knife once you've been stabbed. And the level down was a spit in the face afterwords. A return to this system will turn off a lot of n00bs and casual players.


There's a difference between newbs and noobs. Without regard to the casual players, any system that would cause noobs to quit is A-OK in my book.
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#34 Aug 23 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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I can deal with most penalties.

But not corpse runs. I will never again do a corpse run. *shudder*

Never again.
#35 Aug 23 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I can deal with most penalties.

But not corpse runs. I will never again do a corpse run. *shudder*

Never again.



how about Aion death penalties?! IMO it was the most hardcore
even tho it seem easy, you just buy ur exp back no problem but in a game that money was hard to get due to soo many goldfarmers.. it one of the reason i started disliking Aion.. (account got hack in the end,thanks to aionsource.com gettin hackd)
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#36 Aug 23 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Harri wrote:
Anyone who didn't mind losing exp in FFXI probably didn't play BLM. I didn't, but I always felt sorry for our BLMs who not only lose more exp than anyone else when doing LS activities (besides maybe the tanks or sac pullers), but also having to resort to soloing or partying with other BLM at limited locations to get it back. PLD and BLM are usually jobs of choice at events, but they are at the bottom of the totem pole when it came to exp at 75.


That reminds me of the sad sad time in FFXI, i have SAM, PLD and BLM at 75.

Almost every event my blm will delvl, raise3, lvlup, die and delvl again. After the event i would have to solo jelly for xp.. i totally hate soloing as BLM too.. if i make a mistake thats 30mins of hard work gone. And almost no one wants my pld in a merit point party, but... no one ever wants me to be anything other den blm so no need to worry abt that zzz.

Worst of all if the blm complain that the grp is wiping to much, the melee/nin will always tell the blm "its ok you will get the xp back easy, go solo jelly or something". Sometime i get so ****** i refuse to bring anything but my sam



Edited, Aug 24th 2010 1:41am by Sleepymagi

Edited, Aug 24th 2010 1:42am by Sleepymagi
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#37 Aug 23 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
I like the death/xp penalty. You tend to do dumb @#$% when you're not worried about dying. However, when you just got a new ability or just got to put on that shiny new body piece you've been lugging around you do your damnedest to make sure you stay on your feet...and by extension the people around you as well since they more than likely are doing the same.
#38 Aug 23 2010 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
**
353 posts
I kill myself in beta so I can get a free warp back to aether crystal after I run out of MP.. then I go AFK to eat and come back.
Free abuse ^^
#39 Aug 24 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
***
2,535 posts
RSquires wrote:
I have to admit I liked the exp loss during ffxi. I feel without it there is no real fear of being KO'd. I mean sure I would get mad if I was partying and due to someones obviously stupid choice the party would be wiped out but if the puller would link by accident and the tank or puller would sacrifice themselves to keep the rest of the party alive long enough to kill the first mob it was 'honorable'. But I just feel without any really penalty there is nothing big about being KO'd. Just my opinion.


There's a lot more to making players fear death than imposing harsh penalties.

Just compare single-player Final Fantasies to Dragon Quest games.

In the FFs, death has a huge penalty - Game Over. When you wipe, you reload your last save and try again. In Dragon Quest, on the other hand, you simply reappear at your last save point, with half your cash-on-hand gone. FF clearly has the harsher death penalty here. And yet, players are more afraid of death in the DQ games. Why?

Well, when is the player likeliest to wipe? When fighting bosses. In an FF game, you can generally count on there being a save point right before or close to a boss, so even if you get game over, it's only a minor setback.

In DQ on the other hand, save points are only in towns. If you die to a dungeon boss, you often have to work your way through the entire dungeon again, making death a fairly major setback.

Then, throw in the fact that in FFs, resurrection items are generally fairly common, cheap, and available early on, while in DQs they are rare, usually not available until late in the game, and often limited to one in your inventory at a time, and reliable resurrection magic also often isn't available until late in the game, and even single character deaths are bigger deals in DQ than in FF.



For similar reasons, death is more meaningful in WoW's endgame than in FFXI's. In FFXI, characters can be raised at basically any time, so if someone dies, they're really only out of the fight for the 5 minutes it takes for weakness to wear off (if that). In WoW on the other hand, raising the dead in combat is severely restricted, with an in-combat raise-equivalent available to only one class, a reraise-equivalent available to one other, and one class having a self-only reraise-equivalent, all on fairly long cooldowns, if someone dies in a fight, they're out of the fight until it's over unless they're important enough to use such limited resources to bring them back. (You also can't re-enter a raid instance while a boss fight is in progress.) And many fights have mechanics that make in-combat raises risky, impossible, or potentially useless. So each individual death has a greater effect on your overall chance of failure in WoW, even though the death penalty itself is less severe.



Really, I would argue that's it's not even all that important to be afraid of death - not in a game. What's important is the fear of failure - after all, these characters are adventurers and ostensibly heroes-in-the-making. These are people who have bigger things to be afraid of than dying.

Death is just one way to fail, and in a group it's probably not even the most interesting...
#40 Aug 24 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
^

Everytime I died in a single player RPG like that I got super *******

It was usually against a boss, and it usually meant I got lazy and tried to rush my way there rather than grind a bit, or skipped on some armor or spell.

Dying meant I either had to change my strategy or get stronger.

Not to mention back track from a save point.

Ugh.

Edited, Aug 24th 2010 10:27am by Kierk
#41 Aug 24 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
163 posts
BastokFL wrote:
RSquires wrote:
I have to admit I liked the exp loss during ffxi. I feel without it there is no real fear of being KO'd. I mean sure I would get mad if I was partying and due to someones obviously stupid choice the party would be wiped out but if the puller would link by accident and the tank or puller would sacrifice themselves to keep the rest of the party alive long enough to kill the first mob it was 'honorable'. But I just feel without any really penalty there is nothing big about being KO'd. Just my opinion.


There's a lot more to making players fear death than imposing harsh penalties.

Just compare single-player Final Fantasies to Dragon Quest games.

In the FFs, death has a huge penalty - Game Over. When you wipe, you reload your last save and try again. In Dragon Quest, on the other hand, you simply reappear at your last save point, with half your cash-on-hand gone. FF clearly has the harsher death penalty here. And yet, players are more afraid of death in the DQ games. Why?

Well, when is the player likeliest to wipe? When fighting bosses. In an FF game, you can generally count on there being a save point right before or close to a boss, so even if you get game over, it's only a minor setback.

In DQ on the other hand, save points are only in towns. If you die to a dungeon boss, you often have to work your way through the entire dungeon again, making death a fairly major setback.

Then, throw in the fact that in FFs, resurrection items are generally fairly common, cheap, and available early on, while in DQs they are rare, usually not available until late in the game, and often limited to one in your inventory at a time, and reliable resurrection magic also often isn't available until late in the game, and even single character deaths are bigger deals in DQ than in FF.



For similar reasons, death is more meaningful in WoW's endgame than in FFXI's. In FFXI, characters can be raised at basically any time, so if someone dies, they're really only out of the fight for the 5 minutes it takes for weakness to wear off (if that). In WoW on the other hand, raising the dead in combat is severely restricted, with an in-combat raise-equivalent available to only one class, a reraise-equivalent available to one other, and one class having a self-only reraise-equivalent, all on fairly long cooldowns, if someone dies in a fight, they're out of the fight until it's over unless they're important enough to use such limited resources to bring them back. (You also can't re-enter a raid instance while a boss fight is in progress.) And many fights have mechanics that make in-combat raises risky, impossible, or potentially useless. So each individual death has a greater effect on your overall chance of failure in WoW, even though the death penalty itself is less severe.



Really, I would argue that's it's not even all that important to be afraid of death - not in a game. What's important is the fear of failure - after all, these characters are adventurers and ostensibly heroes-in-the-making. These are people who have bigger things to be afraid of than dying.

Death is just one way to fail, and in a group it's probably not even the most interesting...


I really don't think the exp lose in 11 was 'harsh' but I feel it kept a good player on his/her game. I feel if your rewarded for surviving a battle then you should be penalized for losing it. You died hence something should happen that you don't want to happen. Just being weakened for a few minutes is a incovience not a penalty. And the whole deleveling thing, if I work my *** off to get my character to 75 then I find it natural that I have to work to keep my character at that lvl. I mean yes it's a game and some might think of the whole exp penalty as to harsh or whatever for a game but this is just my opinion. I like the hard work and I like the risk a battle brings if I'm low on exp and close to deleveling.
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So I rated you up for no good reason, big deal. Wanna fight about it?
#42 Aug 24 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
**
562 posts
So if you get a raise is there no penalty at all? Or are you still weakened you just don't have to go back to the Aetheryte crystal? ....... On further read, I see that there is no RES yet in the beta. I guess you can speculate on what'll happen with a raise.



Quote:
I loved partying for long hours. Especially when good conversations are going on.


These were some of my favorite parties. Sometimes they moved a little bit slower exp-wise, but they lasted much longer and when they were done you may have had new people on your friend list, and people you looked forward to partying with in the future.
____________________________
The more I train, the harder I get. The harder I get, the more lethal I am. The more lethal I am, the fewer opponents. The fewer opponents, the less to lose. The less to lose, the more I let up. The more I let up, the more room for mistakes. The more room for mistakes, the more I train.

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