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Tanaka Tires of "Fatigue" RumorsFollow

#1 Aug 24 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Surplus points: a new feature in the Final Fantasy XIV beta was introduced recently and has testers and fans on the outside quite confused. Most people consider it akin to "fatigue," where a character is beset with limitations after a certain amount of play. With no official announcement or explanation on how these points work, fan sites and forums have been struggling to figure them out -- often leading to some harsh criticism of the game. Now, Producer Hiromichi Tanaka seems to have built up some "fatigue" of his own, and lashed out at foreign sites on Twitter today, calling them full of rumors and fabrications.

Read the story here
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#2 Aug 24 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow that was kinda douche baggy of him. Blame the foreigners. Sure. It's THEIR fault the JP beta testers are very confused. There's no way it could be the unexplained ghost nerf of level grinding...

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:55am by mithrandrk
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#3 Aug 24 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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What? You mean Tanaka does know how to get sick and tired of something? ;p

Edit: But I somewhat agree with the above poster. You partially can't blame people for coming up with theories and rumors when you're too damned vague about your game.

SE has always, ALWAYS been vague about their product. If people come up with "wild" ideas and rumors, the bulk of the blame goes to SE, not the people.

Edited, Aug 24th 2010 11:58pm by Threx
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#4 Aug 24 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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What exactly are the rumors saying? I myself just recently started getting "surplus points" on my botanist (14). Based off personal experience it seems to be taking 10% of my exp that's supposed to go towards botanist and putting it somewhere to increase the exp gained on other jobs. It would be pretty cool, if I actually wanted to lower the exp my botanist gets.

Of course, chances are I'm misunderstanding what's happening.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:57am by Deadgye
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#5 Aug 24 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I am now completely confused on what the fatigue and surplus system is. Is fatigue in the game or was it an old system removed earlier in beta? Is fatigue the thing everyone is complaining about? Are the penalties people have been running into actually not complete penalties and have some benefit to them. It would have been really nice if he just explained a bit of what is going on. =(

Oh wow! just read the translation of his post BIG LOLS @ him blaming foreign websites.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:58am by FaithseekerOishii
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#6 Aug 24 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
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Again, people are overreacting.

People should calm down and wait patiently. An explanation will be made at some point. It's not a limiter.
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#7 Aug 24 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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seems like surplus experience might not just poof after all, interesting. I agree with what was said near the end of the article, if they had given some explanation before implementation all of the negative feedback could have been averted.
#8 Aug 24 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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there's a fairly simple fix to all the speculation and confusion: let the beta testers know what the system is intended to be so you can receive feedback for how appropriate and balanced they feel it is to the game

remember Tanaka-san, the development team never intended the Ninja job to tank, what you expect from the players and what they deliver can be vastly different
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#9 Aug 24 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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Sure he can't just blame "foreign sites" for starting the misinformation and rumors when the game isn't properly explained by SE. But at the same time people have been making wild speculation on how the game's going to play based on either what they've seen or heard from the beta, and concluding that the game will be broken. There's lots of threads here on Alla complaining about such mechanics and how it's going to make the game horrible. Rather than concluding that the game is broken we should be trying to figure out what it's supposed to do!

Edit: Just to clarify: rather than jumping to conclusions as to how the system is going to affect gameplay, we should first try to figure out how it works!

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:13am by Gadhelyn
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#10 Aug 24 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Throw a random system in the game, fail to explain it, fail to respond to requests to explain, then blame the foreign sites for causing misinformation. Wow, did he not see this coming? If he doesn't want people to speculate and fabricate what it may or may not do, he needs to tell people exactly what it does, otherwise they will attempt to figure it out or understand it through, you guessed it, speculation!
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#11 Aug 24 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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... lol

Hey, SE. Stop being SE and actually fully explain features to people when you put them in. Don't talk about it in an interview a month later, still not explain what the **** it does, and then ***** about how people are getting it wrong when they're left to guess what the **** it really does.
#12 Aug 24 2010 at 11:15 PM Rating: Good
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I totally agree with him about websites...**** look at the threads we had today about that ridiculous misinformed "article" about the surplus exp. Saying things like "FFXIV players only allowed to play 1 hour at a time." And everyone picking up their pitchforks...

Of course it would help if they gave more info, but he's completely right about that nonsense...
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#13 Aug 24 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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No, he's not. What the **** do you expect players to do when they don't explain how such an important feature is supposed to work?

This is entirely the fault of SE and their utter failure to communicate with their players.
#14 Aug 24 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
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There's a big difference between us discussing it back n forth & then other websites posting totally wrong information about it disguised as facts. I think he's annoyed & speaking up about the latter...
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#15 Aug 24 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok Mr Tanka since we are "misinformed" can you please explain what fatigue does rather than ranting at us "foreigners?" Why not say what it does after having to post that paragraph?
#16 Aug 24 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree. If they had fully explained the feature and the conditions in which it activated and sites were STILL posting wrong info as fact, yes, he'd have every right to complain. But when they don't bother to tell us how things work they have no right to ***** about it when we get it wrong.

People have the tendency to speak their opinions as fact, everyone does it. People are going to think they figured it out and pass that info off as fact and keep doing it unless SE corrects them. They could have avoided a ton of this negative press and misinformation if they had just done explained things. Sure, some people would still post wrong info, but the vast majority of this ********* would have been avoided.
#17 Aug 24 2010 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty annoyed that everybody's asking for an explanation honestly. Just to throw something into perspective, how much of FFXI had explanations tied to it? Did you guys play FFXI? I'm assuming most of you did. What is explained to you in that game?

The majority of the time everything in FFXI was figured out by the player. I personally think that was the fun of it. It's cool to have some mystery to something.

If everything is spelled out from the start, what fun is that? Where's the excitement? Whether it's good or bad, doesn't looking forward to finding out what something is or looking forward to playing and experiencing something make it that much better?

If Tanaka spelled out everything about this system and everything else in the game right off the bat I'd be pretty ****** off.

I personally feel that the player base is very spoiled and expects too many entitlements. I have lost more faith in the players than I have the development team.

That's fine if you don't agree.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 1:34am by Rjain
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#18 Aug 24 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Decent
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People have been trying to figure out how it works for awhile non and everybody gets different results. This isn't just some "whine fest". You don't throw out something with out any acknowledgment of it, no documentation of it, what its supposed to do, etc then have your testers figure it out blindly. Then blame foreign sites.

I love comments I have been seeing around the different web sites. I really love the "wait until retail to see about x feature!" Yeah wait until after the release of a product that you probably pad for to "test" to see if it works or is good.. Yeah glad they don't have beta tests for games to squash bugs, test out fatigue type systems, see if something works first... oh wait.

Personally? Well as a whole western MMO players play on a PC and most Japanese players are mainly console users. Since the PC version is coming out first and the PS3 version later, I see it being in retail, to keep the mostly PC western players from out running the mainly PS3 Japanese players until the PS3 version comes. Sure it speculation, but it won't surprise me, more so if they removed this system around the PS3 launch time.
#19 Aug 24 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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Normally I would call this an overreaction, but after having read not one, but two threads about that "interview" stating that Fatigue will hit in an hour, that it will reduce you to 0 exp, that it will take two days to wear off, and worst, that it effects all characters on an account; I think this is pretty bloody well deserved. In fact, assuming that this is indeed a response to those baseless rumors, I applaud him on his quick response to them.
#20 Aug 24 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm pretty annoyed that everybody's asking for an explanation honestly. Just to throw something into perspective, how much of FFXI had explanations tied to it? Did you guys play FFXI? I'm assuming most of you did. What is explained to you in that game?


Although i am not annoyed, i do understand what you are saying. But something like this could really be a deal breaker for many. And SE really needs to understand that something like this needs to be addressed even if speaking only generally to not create any bad press and what not. MMO's are so much more popular then they were 10 years ago and these supposed AAA titles receive a lot more attention before launch.
#21 Aug 24 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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If his post was just about us not getting it without thrusting any blame on anyone. This would have gone a lot smoother. I still don't see how it is good idea to add system like this where you loose exp, without explaining the possible benefits to the player.
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#22 Aug 24 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Normally I would call this an overreaction, but after having read not one, but two threads about that "interview" stating that Fatigue will hit in an hour, that it will reduce you to 0 exp, that it will take two days to wear off, and worst, that it effects all characters on an account; I think this is pretty bloody well deserved. In fact, assuming that this is indeed a response to those baseless rumors, I applaud him on his quick response to them.


Exactly!
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#23 Aug 24 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm with the general consensus here. Don't be mad at "Foreign Fan Sites" because SE doesn't know how Public Relations works. If SE doesn't like the speculation then talk to us and tell us what is going on instead of just letting us "figure it out". In fact a short email to the admins about this system would have gone over alot better than a angry twit complaining about your future player base, a player base who has yet to actually purchase your game. Not a very smart move Tanaka-san, no a very smart move at all.
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#24 Aug 24 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mmm, there's enough blame to go around, I think. Of course the sites that report these types of Chicken Little "the sky is falling" stories have an obligation to gather all of the facts before coming out and declaring something to be true or not. In turn, the base expects forthcoming information in regards to new and mysterious items involving this game. In a mad rush to drum up hits and to be the first to break a story, certain sites will jump forward with some half-truths or, at worst, blatant misinformation on the subject. From there it spreads like wildfire. And snap judgments based on these tidbits are made.

Mr. Tanaka is calling the sensational reports over this fatigue system "rumors and fabrications." Hopefully we can get a clarification on this particular issue very soon.
#25 Aug 24 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
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The thing is that when we "speculate" here on Zam, we know that it's just speculation. We don't consider them as facts. Ridiculous facts calling does get defaulted. Just look at the "only 1 hour per day" thread for example. We really can't help it if other people don't bother to read it clearly.

And like it has been said before: the speculation is there because SE is being stingy with handing out information. If even the beta testers don't know w t f is going on how on earth would they expect people NOT to speculate.
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#26 Aug 24 2010 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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Oh I see. He's just mad at people quoting Sankaku Complex and mad at people believing Sankaku Complex. I guess his reaction makes sense, given that most people who are looking forward to playing xiv didn't know that Sankaku Complex is a complete piece of ****.
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#27 Aug 24 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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2 things:

1. They implement a system into the (test version) of the game with little to no explanation as to what it does and expect players not to speculate and talk about it. AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME! Maybe they should explain things a little better so they aren't misunderstood or taken "the wrong way".

2. Just foreign sites are to blame? I don't wanna throw the word xenophobia out there but... I just did. I like how he says "the foreigners started it and then the Japanese took it and made it worse. But it's their fault cause they started it!" It's kinda harsh that they only posted it on the Japanese twitter too. What is he trying to do? Split the community?

Really, maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion, but wouldn't it have been better to just come out and dispel the rumors and speculation by explaining the system a little better and perhaps "suggesting" that fans/players use the term surplus instead of fatigue? I know I'm sounding kind of politically correct, but to me this seems like it will just be something else for users to "blow out of proportion" and it looks very unprofessional.
#28 Aug 25 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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ITT: SE tells people nothing, then gets annoyed when people take what they weren't told the wrong way, when **** blows up in their face.

You know what, I'm glad this turned out the way they did.

I really wish SE would learn that being up front with your players in the first place is how to stop these types of things from happening. I'm an SE fan, but they have no one but themselves to blame for the fact that they implement a feature that most players will hate (And there's a poll I started that backs that up), tell the players nothing, answer interviews with vague remarks about how punishing players will "encourage them to play a different way", and all of the sudden, **** gets way out of hand.

Two words: Absolute Virtue.

My favorite part of this whole business? Even the JP players are ****** off about it!
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#29 Aug 25 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I would think that original FFXI players would be used to having little or no explanation behind the gaming system (for better or worse). You have to admit though, out of the 64 or so pages of threads in the FFXIV general forums, how much of the content is fact, and how much is speculation.

Also, no offense to the WoW player base out there...but I think a lot of the angry forum members are probably those used to having a LOT of gaming systems' operations being transparent (whether by design of Blizzard, or subsequent information uncovered by third party applications). I remember when I first logged in to WOW, it was strange to see how things were relatively straightforward (as opposed to having to visit forums like Alla and KI to grasp the basics of the job/game mechanics).

People just need to chill out and wait for an official explanation (which should be forthcoming shortly, judging by how much the surplus system is stirring up the community and the developers).
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#30 Aug 25 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, and the absolute best part? After deriding "foreign sites" for "spreading misinformation", they STILL don't bother explaining what it really is or how it's supposed to work.

Not "It doesn't work like X, it works like Y", but "It doesn't work like X. How dare people say it works like X? It has nothing to do with X. X is misinformation"

Seriously. I don't want all the answers handed to me, but between Pandemonium Warden and now Surplus XP, one thing has become crystal clear to me:

The only way to get any answer out of SE about ANYTHING is an Internet ********* of negative publicity. That's it.

Again, I'm really not trying to be "ZOMG SE SUXX" guy; I love their products and have been (and still am) looking forward to Project Rapture for years.

I just wish SE would learn that talking with your players is the key to happy players. It seems like through the Alpha, everyone was talking about how "SE is listening to us!" and "SE hears our feedback!"

What the **** happened?
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#31 Aug 25 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Default
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so people ***** about hardcore vs casual se implements surplus xp which makes the testers ***** to fourm people who ***** at each other and se ******* to the fourm people who ***** at them so i say since its comming back down we ***** at the testers
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#32 Aug 25 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Default
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How do they expect to win over casual gamers if they don't explain the stuff they put into their games? Mind you, this particular system will rarely affect those players, but no doubt there will be more. They seem to depend on Fan-Sites to release more detailed "tutorials" than they do, then they act all indignant when they get something wrong or speculate on a certain feature incorrectly. It's rather crooked.
#33 Aug 25 2010 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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RayneZ wrote:
2 things:

1. They implement a system into the (test version) of the game with little to no explanation as to what it does and expect players not to speculate and talk about it. AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME! Maybe they should explain things a little better so they aren't misunderstood or taken "the wrong way".

2. Just foreign sites are to blame? I don't wanna throw the word xenophobia out there but... I just did. I like how he says "the foreigners started it and then the Japanese took it and made it worse. But it's their fault cause they started it!" It's kinda harsh that they only posted it on the Japanese twitter too. What is he trying to do? Split the community?

Really, maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion, but wouldn't it have been better to just come out and dispel the rumors and speculation by explaining the system a little better and perhaps "suggesting" that fans/players use the term surplus instead of fatigue? I know I'm sounding kind of politically correct, but to me this seems like it will just be something else for users to "blow out of proportion" and it looks very unprofessional.


So if a pyromaniac burns down a building..who would you blame? The people who built the building or the one who started the fire?

SE implements a system in a BETA BUILD of a game....not to mention one under NDA for a reason..and were expected to go into every intricate detail about something that can no doubt change refinement wise? This game has not been released yet and people are acting like they threw this system at us weeks after the game goes live for no reason and no warning. When your game reaches a beta phase you typically throw in systems and see how it works..it's common game design and it's also pretty common for it to not be explained outside of the dev team because they know what the systems are and what they have to do with it.

SE didn't fully explain it to the public yet aside what the system is..not how it works as you usually give that information when the game is actually you know..released. That's what game manuals are for generally especially if they continue to come as big as XI's did back in 2002-2003 or so. The rumor started on a non Japanese site, right? (aka Foreign)..isn't he actually correct then? I think the main thing is..because it was blatant ******** about it kicking in at "x hour" and lasting for "xx days" when anyone who's been playing would know otherwise, so it's not this small blurb that spread like a disease...it's pretty much spreading bad press about a game still in testing phases which any developer would be mad about. Any. American, European, Japanese, Chinese, French, Otherworlder etc.

Also..Tanaka is Japanese..therefore he posted on his Twitter..which is in Japanese..because he's Japanese...I don't see how that's in any form "spiting the community" o.O Though even though they'll likely shoot themselves for it I can see them explaining the system now even though it could change by release in some way then they get pegged for lying etc.
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#34 Aug 25 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dik wrote:
I would think that original FFXI players would be used to having little or no explanation behind the gaming system (for better or worse). You have to admit though, out of the 64 or so pages of threads in the FFXIV general forums, how much of the content is fact, and how much is speculation.

Also, no offense to the WoW player base out there...but I think a lot of the angry forum members are probably those used to having a LOT of gaming systems' operations being transparent (whether by design of Blizzard, or subsequent information uncovered by third party applications). I remember when I first logged in to WOW, it was strange to see how things were relatively straightforward (as opposed to having to visit forums like Alla and KI to grasp the basics of the job/game mechanics).

People just need to chill out and wait for an official explanation (which should be forthcoming shortly, judging by how much the surplus system is stirring up the community and the developers).


Take a look at my sig. Should be pretty obvious I've spent time in both worlds, and I've spent far more time in XI than in WoW.

I certainly don't expect SE to come out and detail exactly how everything works. I not only don't expect it, but I wouldn't want them to. I don't want the game spoon-fed to me. I -want- to figure out things for myself.

But it would be terribly nice if SE could just take 5 minutes to say (making this up) "We're adding a feature called "surplus XP; if you spend a lot of time leveling up as one class, you'll accumulate bonus XP that will allow you to progress your other classes faster when you change", or however it works,rather than just throw it in there and say nothing.

I certainly don't want, need, or expect a WoW-level of where the game practically plays itself for you (otherwise I'd play WoW) but the problem is that after 8 years in the MMORPG business (That's right, SE has been in the MMO business longer than Blizzard), SE seems to have no concept of their players.


I have an aunt. She LOVED to buy people presents, but she didn't buy things they would like, she would buy things she would like them to have. She bought my father, a man who has never drank coffee, coffee mugs. For one birthday, she bought me a Star Trek journal, despite the fact that I've never watched Star Trek and never had a journal. My mom is a Christian, and yet my aunt has bought her Jewish knicknacks. My sister has been wearing bondage pants since she was 14 years old (she turns 21 this November) and yet my aunt has bought her sun dresses. Excluding her wedding, I can not remember the last time I've seen my sister wear ANY type of dress.


That's what SE does. They come up with these great ideas that they think we should like, and give them to us with no concept of what we expect or want.
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#35 Aug 25 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
SE implements a system in a BETA BUILD of a game....not to mention one under NDA for a reason..and were expected to go into every intricate detail about something that can no doubt change refinement wise? This game has not been released yet and people are acting like they threw this system at us weeks after the game goes live for no reason and no warning. When your game reaches a beta phase you typically throw in systems and see how it works..it's common game design and it's also pretty common for it to not be explained outside of the dev team because they know what the systems are and what they have to do with it.

[...]

Also..Tanaka is Japanese..therefore he posted on his Twitter..which is in Japanese..because he's Japanese...I don't see how that's in any form "spiting the community" o.O Though even though they'll likely shoot themselves for it I can see them explaining the system now even though it could change by release in some way then they get pegged for lying etc.


This is largely a culture gap thing, but I think something that gets grossly lost between the "Eastern way of doing things" and the "Western way of doing things" is that Easterners like the Japanese don't get that Westerners are a lot more accepting of a company saying "Hey. We ****** up. Our bad." then they think. There's this massive notion through Japanese roots that the best way to spin a bad situation is to ignore it and hope it goes away; that apologies are meaningless and admitting fault is the worst thing you can do. The problem with this is that the Western view is that the more you say nothing, the more you let people assume.

Look at Tabloids. "We asked this actor if he was *** and he didn't answer, therefore that proves he has a homosexual lover! Let's put this on the front page of our magazine!"

the problem with Westerners, and yes, I admit this is a problem, is that when you don't give them ALL of the information, they tend to fill in the blanks in the worst possible way. You ever play mad libs with that guy who puts "*****" in EVERY. SINGLE. BLANK? Even the verbs and adjectives? That's what Westerners do. They just assume things are as bad as they possibly can be, because there is no one to tell them otherwise.

Sometimes SE needs to just break down and say "Hey, here's what's going on. Just wanted to let you know **** is broke. We're working on it." Takes 10 freaking seconds and it stifles 90% of your detractors to just come out and admit you know there's a problem, rather than to let them assume the problem is worse than it really is, and watch it blow way the **** out of proportion.
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#36 Aug 25 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I've got an idea. We should just stop beta-testing. Or better yet, we should just boycott SE, and burn their products. That'll learn them really good. That'll teach them that their product isn't worth the time that they've invested into it.

If we boycott and revoke our purchases, maybe then the NEXT time they'll think about doing things differently. WHO'S WITH ME?! ....yea I thought not.


When did this turn into the WoW forums?

I used to think that FFXI players were the type that came up from the school of hard knocks. That they understood that their game maker SE was hard thus they could think outside the box in order to achieve more creative ways to do things? But I see we are nothing more than the people that we criticize. We've become WoW players telling SE that things are too hard, and to tune things down and please give us this and that. What's WoW doing again? Shooting themselves in the foot with Cataclysm?

The ONLY way that SE will respond quickly is to find creative ways to glitch the system. YES that's right. Let's take a look at Absolute Virtue, there was absolutely NO way of beating the damned thing until some player found out about the glitch to take it out. What did SE respond with? BOOM fixed it.

The description of insanity as per Benjamin Franklin "Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result." We know SE is going to do the same thing over and over again and keep us in the dark. How do we proceed? Doing the same damned thing again and again expecting a different result. Who's the fool?

SE is secretive, nothing new here. Work with what we have and plan around it people. We were once a creative community, somewhere we became a bunch of WoW players expecting SE to hand feed us stuff and believing in every fabrication out there.

They're putting in a surplus system into place for certain reasons in the beta. I've not read anywhere credible that this was going to be in the actual release. So please let's cut through all the bulls**t of misinformation and test out what actually is there so that we can find a way to work around it.

Even if they DID implement it, what are you going to do about it? If SE doesn't listen anyway, then you're still just going to be as bitter and can do nothing about it.
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#37 Aug 25 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Before blaming fansites , they should have explained how it works at the first place. And please SE gives some responses to the feedback at the beta tester forum, not thru interviews. Please follow what blizzards does. That's the way business does.

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#38 Aug 25 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Default
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Maruchiru wrote:
That's the way business does.


Microsoft overcharges for everything.

Sony packages "the new wave of entertainment" with their game systems(DVD - PS2, BLU Ray - PS3)

Falcom only markets to their extremely niche group of consumers.


Different companies have different business practices.


Mikhalia wrote:
Sometimes SE needs to just break down and say "Hey, here's what's going on. Just wanted to let you know sh*t is broke. We're working on it." Takes 10 freaking seconds and it stifles 90% of your detractors to just come out and admit you know there's a problem, rather than to let them assume the problem is worse than it really is, and watch it blow way the **** out of proportion.


Then they'd have to explain it in French, German and English which can sometimes have completely different meanings, look at even the FFXI update notes things can likely get lost in translation and as seen, people can indeed go wild with even knowing of a system's existence..think what would happen if stuff got lost in translations Smiley: eek
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#39 Aug 25 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I like how he is only mad because it's spread to the JP community, they don't care about the non JP playerbase... say what you want but just don't spread rumours the JPs can pick up on!

Square as always are really stupid, they are in the final stages nearing release and something VERY important to the success of the game is being left unexplained. If this is in final people won't buy the game and if it fails at the begining people are very unforgiving, even if they do fix it later the damage will be done.
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#40 Aug 25 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's this massive notion through Japanese roots that the best way to spin a bad situation is to ignore it and hope it goes away; that apologies are meaningless and admitting fault is the worst thing you can do.


This is a pretty big generalisation to cast at a culture which historically puts a lot of emphasis on taking responsibility e.g. the idea that committing seppuku is not dishonourable but in fact a way of regaining part of your honour.

I think it's more the fact that nobody knows what the objective in placing the surplus system in beta 3 was designed to achieve (and nobody knows if it's a temporary measure)...than SE stuffing up the game by implementing something without consultation.

Quote:
Please follow what blizzards does. That's the way business does.


No, that is what Blizzard does, not neceesarily how business is done. I agree insofar as it would make sense to reach out to your testers and community to let them know what's coming before doing it...but to claim that the way things are done by the market leader is the correct/best way to do things is a bit much.
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#41 Aug 25 2010 at 12:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Maruchiru wrote:
That's the way business does.


Microsoft overcharges for everything.

Sony packages "the new wave of entertainment" with their game systems(DVD - PS2, BLU Ray - PS3)

Falcom only markets to their extremely niche group of consumers.


Different companies have different business practices.


Agreed. We don't need SE to do things just the way Blizzard does it. If you want things done the way Blizzard does it, you play a Blizzard game.

If anything, Blizzard listens to their customers -TOO MUCH-.

Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Sometimes SE needs to just break down and say "Hey, here's what's going on. Just wanted to let you know sh*t is broke. We're working on it." Takes 10 freaking seconds and it stifles 90% of your detractors to just come out and admit you know there's a problem, rather than to let them assume the problem is worse than it really is, and watch it blow way the **** out of proportion.


Then they'd have to explain it in French, German and English which can sometimes have completely different meanings, look at even the FFXI update notes things can likely get lost in translation and as seen, people can indeed go wild with even knowing of a system's existence..think what would happen if stuff got lost in translations Smiley: eek


Again, that's what you hire translators for. If there's a problem, that's why your translators are paid to say "Hey, remember when I told you all that we were decreasing spawn rates? I meant -increasing-. My bad."

I will never expect SE to have the level of transparency that devs like Blizzard or Bungie or Bioware have. I will never expect something like EVE where the devs let players elect leadership to interface directly with the devs. I would never, EVER expect that.

I'm just saying that it'd be nice if SE were a little less secretive. There's a huge space between "tell your players everything" and "tell your players nothing. I would never want them to be in that first category, but if they could just leave their house and come out on the lawn, it'd be pretty cool.
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#42 Aug 25 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
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Players: "Hmm what's happening to my xp?"
SE: "We added a new system"
Players: "oh how does it work"
SE: ". . ."
Players: "Looks like a fatigue system."
SE: ". . ."
Players: "We don't like it, can you shine some light on the benefits?"
SE: ::Tumbleweeds::
Players: ". . ."
SE: "WTF it's your fault people don't want to buy our game! Stop thinking and just play you ******* foreigners"
Players: 凸(●´―`●)凸

Nice one.
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#43 Aug 25 2010 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I support Tanaka. I know most of you have been missing this phrase so I'm gonna say it for you. "It's Beta" LMAO He needs to explain to everyone? How would they know if people are able to figure out how to beat the game if they explained it all to you kiddies. DO you need walkthroughs to beat games? Most games don't tell you what they are trying to do. They show you previews, you go buy it, and if you don't like it you put it on craigslist.

This is what happens when people think they make the game. SE is making the game, they set the rules. You think them being secretive is wrong and don't like what they are trying to do then don't buy the game. This is why I keep putting on these posts to stop with the negative posts when you know nothing about the system.

It's beta!!! Beta testers are to try the game and help the company know what they need to fix. If they explain you need to do this.

Step 1 Fight 5 dodos. You hit surplus stop fighting Dodos
Step 2 Fight 5 imps. You hit the next surplus stop fighting imps.
step 3 Fight 5 sheep. You hit the surplus again. Change jobs and start with step 1.

If you can't figure out how to play a game with limitations then your a casual gamer and you need this.

I don't know who or what made you people think you made the call of what is going into this game and what is not. Even if you're a tester you're not there to change the product. You're just there to test it and give them your opinion. They're the ones making the money not you. They'll decide what they want in the game.

Recap: Every game has limitations. "Every"
It's Beta. Nothing is set in stone. "Nothing"
It's SE's game. They set the Limitations and decide what stays and what don't. "It's SE's game"
Negative posts. Negativity only brings about more Negativity. "Posts about unknown things"

As far as all you saying you're not going to buy the game if it has this surplus in it. BYE BYE WE LUV U!!!
In all reality if you are so incapable of learning to play around the surplus then you probably will suck at playing your job and we don't want you around.

I hope that explained it to you all. LMAO Multimillion dollar company has to explain things. LMAO
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#44 Aug 25 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
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Dik wrote:
Quote:
There's this massive notion through Japanese roots that the best way to spin a bad situation is to ignore it and hope it goes away; that apologies are meaningless and admitting fault is the worst thing you can do.


This is a pretty big generalisation to cast at a culture which historically puts a lot of emphasis on taking responsibility e.g. the idea that committing seppuku is not dishonourable but in fact a way of regaining part of your honour.

I think it's more the fact that nobody knows what the objective in placing the surplus system in beta 3 was designed to achieve (and nobody knows if it's a temporary measure)...than SE stuffing up the game by implementing something without consultation.


Look back over the last 8 years of XI and count up all the times that SE has genuinely apologized for something. If you need more than one hand, I'll be surprised. Actually, if you need more than half a hand, I'll clap for you. Not the generic corporate "We apologize for any inconvenience as we go into our 4th hour of extended maintenance" apologies, but someone actually saying "Hey, we screwed up here. We'll try not to let it happen again".

I don't think this even happened after the PW incident. When it got back to SE that the first fight was 18 hours long, their reply was along the lines of "Only 18? Wow, it took us 22 hours! Good job!"

There's a difference between "taking responsibility" and ADMITTING responsibility and apologizing for it. I am well aware of Japanese cultural assignment of honor, and the fact is, admitting a mistake -can- be viewed as dishonorable, and that's why they avoid doing so. Pretending the mistake never happened is seemingly a lot more honorable than taking ownership of it.

[/quote]
Quote:
Please follow what blizzards does. That's the way business does.


No, that is what Blizzard does, not neceesarily how business is done. I agree insofar as it would make sense to reach out to your testers and community to let them know what's coming before doing it...but to claim that the way things are done by the market leader is the correct/best way to do things is a bit much. [/quote]

I agree. That's how one company does it, not how EVERY company does it.
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#45 Aug 25 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I know most of you have been missing this phrase so I'm gonna say it for you. "It's Beta" LMAO He needs to explain to everyone? How would they know if people are able to figure out how to beat the game if they explained it all to you kiddies. DO you need walkthroughs to beat games? Most games don't tell you what they are trying to do. They show you previews, you go buy it, and if you don't like it you put it on craigslist.


Last I checked betas were used by players to test a game and tell the developers what works and doesn't work/what they like and don't like. So if they ask a question, yes I think it should be explained. Otherwise they won't know how to improve their game for the majority of their playerbase i.e. making money to continue their jobs as developers?
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#46 Aug 25 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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XvirusTvirus wrote:
I support Tanaka. I know most of you have been missing this phrase so I'm gonna say it for you. "It's Beta" LMAO He needs to explain to everyone? How would they know if people are able to figure out how to beat the game if they explained it all to you kiddies. DO you need walkthroughs to beat games? Most games don't tell you what they are trying to do. They show you previews, you go buy it, and if you don't like it you put it on craigslist.

This is what happens when people think they make the game. SE is making the game, they set the rules. You think them being secretive is wrong and don't like what they are trying to do then don't buy the game. This is why I keep putting on these posts to stop with the negative posts when you know nothing about the system.

It's beta!!! Beta testers are to try the game and help the company know what they need to fix. If they explain you need to do this.

Step 1 Fight 5 dodos. You hit surplus stop fighting Dodos
Step 2 Fight 5 imps. You hit the next surplus stop fighting imps.
step 3 Fight 5 sheep. You hit the surplus again. Change jobs and start with step 1.

If you can't figure out how to play a game with limitations then your a casual gamer and you need this.

I don't know who or what made you people think you made the call of what is going into this game and what is not. Even if you're a tester you're not there to change the product. You're just there to test it and give them your opinion. They're the ones making the money not you. They'll decide what they want in the game.

Recap: Every game has limitations. "Every"
It's Beta. Nothing is set in stone. "Nothing"
It's SE's game. They set the Limitations and decide what stays and what don't. "It's SE's game"
Negative posts. Negativity only brings about more Negativity. "Posts about unknown things"

As far as all you saying you're not going to buy the game if it has this surplus in it. BYE BYE WE LUV U!!!
In all reality if you are so incapable of learning to play around the surplus then you probably will suck at playing your job and we don't want you around.

I hope that explained it to you all. LMAO Multimillion dollar company has to explain things. LMAO


This is a pretty ignorant viewpoint. As a consumer I want to know as much about the product I am going to be purchasing, asking SE to explain some of the things that will effect the way the game is played, is not far fetched, it is very reasonable.

I dont care how much money the company is worth, if I am going to buy their product, I want to make an informed decision.
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#47 Aug 25 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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No explanation. Still confused.
SE should just explain what it is, so people are not confused, hopefully before the release date. I really want to know what I'm buying before I buy it.
#48 Aug 25 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
I know most of you have been missing this phrase so I'm gonna say it for you. "It's Beta" LMAO He needs to explain to everyone? How would they know if people are able to figure out how to beat the game if they explained it all to you kiddies. DO you need walkthroughs to beat games? Most games don't tell you what they are trying to do. They show you previews, you go buy it, and if you don't like it you put it on craigslist.


Last I checked betas were used by players to test a game and tell the developers what works and doesn't work/what they like and don't like. So if they ask a question, yes I think it should be explained. Otherwise they won't know how to improve their game for the majority of their playerbase i.e. making money to continue their jobs as developers?


Uh un. Beta's are used by DEVELOPERS so that they can get glitches worked out in the system and POSSIBLY feedback. But that part depends on how the developer uses it's beta. Most people these days tend to think that beta is a preview of a game.. nope. Beta is nothing more than the developer testing out ideas that they have and see if the beta testers use their product and perform certain tasks. They may use that information however they please, it's their game.
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#49 Aug 25 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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XvirusTvirus wrote:
It's beta!!! Beta testers are to try the game and help the company know what they need to fix. If they explain you need to do this.


It's a beta test. Part of a test is explaining to your testers what needs to be tested.

Have you ever tested a software product that was -not- a video game? Say an Operating System or a data application? I strongly doubt it. The programmers will typically let you know what features they've added and tell you what features need to be tested. They then expect the beta testers to use these features, verify they work, and attempt to break them.

Let's say I write a program for an iPhone that will determine the area of a room. You punch in the width, length, and height, and it outputs the room's area in feet cubed.

Now let's say I add a feature that allows it to output data in meters cubed, but don't tell you about it. Now all of the sudden, you're wondering why your results are 1/3 of what you think they should be, and I'm not telling you anything about it. You talk to the other testers and determine that perhaps I changed some variable and again I say nothing. Then you tell the other testers that the results are off and that they need to multiply the results by 3 to get closer to the actual answer.

Then I come back and get all ****** because you're spreading misinformation.

See, that's the problem. Programmers and devs NEED to communicate new features to testers otherwise they don't get tested properly. I don't give a sh*t about beta tests in video games, but in the real world, where real applications are made and tested, the programmers and the testers communicate with each other on what new features need to be added, how they should be tested, and what happens as a result of certain testing.

If you were to ever test anything outside of games, you'd know this. It seems you're under the mistaken belief that a beta test is a fancy word for demo.

Try signing up to beta test the next distro of Ubuntu or Windows or something similarly elaborate to see how it's supposed to work in the real world.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 3:08am by Mikhalia
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#50 Aug 25 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ITT: SE tells people nothing, then gets annoyed when people take what they weren't told the wrong way, when sh*t blows up in their face.

You know what, I'm glad this turned out the way they did.

I really wish SE would learn that being up front with your players in the first place is how to stop these types of things from happening. I'm an SE fan, but they have no one but themselves to blame for the fact that they implement a feature that most players will hate (And there's a poll I started that backs that up), tell the players nothing, answer interviews with vague remarks about how punishing players will "encourage them to play a different way", and all of the sudden, sh*t gets way out of hand.

Two words: Absolute Virtue.

My favorite part of this whole business? Even the JP players are ****** off about it!


Exactly. You can't throw out a game with little to almost explanation about it then say something as friggen lowbrow as "the foreigners did it". You don't want rumors? Speak about the game with some **** veracity to it rather then nebulous responses (that in some instances were recanted within a few hours of saying them) and (borderline) double talk.

There is no justification for this passive-aggressive article whatsoever. On top of the total lack of professionalism in blaming it on the foreign sources, again, you didn't bother to address most things with any kind of clarity in a game you're going to launch in basically a month.

Sorry if us foreigners expect answers and not just stand in line like mindless zombies, cash clenched firmly in our trembling hand as we wait for our FF fix. Funny how that works. Consumers wanting explaining about the product they're expected to buy and *gasp* expressing disdain for the less then savory parts of it. There is some kind of karmic justice that the Japanese play base doesn't like it either.

Like I mentioned before, this was completely unprofessional. There is no justification for it (oh he's sick of the BS too and such nonsense). He is the SE mouth piece. Its his job to explain the product in SOME kind of detail and its certainly NOT his job to throw out inflammatory borderline race-bait remarks such as these. It doesn't mater how wild the accusations are (though honestly as a beta tester I haven't seen anything "wild") or by which nationality they are said by.

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#51 Aug 25 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Several replies from Japanese fans also point to the lack of any official explanation as exacerbating, if not outright causing, the issue.


Like seriously, you say you're going to institute a highly controversial system and then don't say anything other than that? That's asking for trouble.
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