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Tanaka Tires of "Fatigue" RumorsFollow

#52Mistress Theonehio, Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 1:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You don't make these decisions on a beta version of a game. You just don't and if you've been a gamer for even 5 years you never once make a purchase decision on a beta version of a game, especially a console game because you GENERALLY don't get to see nor play the beta versions but you're also given info once it's around complete and close to release with some info on main features that's to draw in your consumer, but never intimate details of said features, for example surplus xp is a system we don't know about fully however it's linked to the XP system..but what DO we know about? Just about everything else that's a major feature and a selling point, Surplus XP is just something linked to leveling which obviously will be explained in due time because not only does it NOT affect how the game is played because you can still level and whatnot, but the beta build (yes beta build, a test version of a game, usually unbalanced) is hardly something to base a purchase around.....
#53 Aug 25 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
I mean, look at Starcraft Ghost since Blizzard "always does it right and everyone should follow in their steps" and how did that turn out? Just because everything is thrown out there doesn't mean anything because sh*t happens and things can change and as said there IS a gap between western and eastern design, people acknowledge it and accept however many acknowledge it and believe one way is incorrect and one way is correct.


Off topic: I still think Ghost would have been awesome.

On topic again: Post retail, I would agree with you that it should be up to SE what information they want to release and what information they don't. But as someone who has been involved in beta testing products that had nothing to do with video games, I gotta flat out say that if you expect quality test results, you need to let your testers know what the **** is going on. If you don't want to tell players what is going on, then do your beta testing inhouse instead of outsourcing it. All you do is waste time, effort, energy, and resources if you're expecting players to TEST your product and you're not going to give them any information.

Like I said, post retail, all bets are off. If they don't wanna tell us **** and just wanna drop us in the world, that's OUR problem, not theirs and they're not obligated to do anything beyond that point.

But in test phases, devs need to provide accurate, specific information to testers if they expect testers to give them accurate, quality feedback and results. If they don't want to tell us what we're testing, we can't be expected to test it properly, meaning they can't fix problems, meaning a poorer quality product for consumers post retail.

I dunno, maybe I'm the only person who takes the concept of a beta test seriously and doesn't treat it like a **** game.
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#54 Aug 25 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
As a consumer I want to know as much about the product I am going to be purchasing, asking SE to explain some of the things that will effect the way the game is played, is not far fetched, it is very reasonable.

I dont care how much money the company is worth, if I am going to buy their product, I want to make an informed decision.


You don't make these decisions on a beta version of a game. You just don't and if you've been a gamer for even 5 years you never once make a purchase decision on a beta version of a game, especially a console game because you GENERALLY don't get to see nor play the beta versions but you're also given info once it's around complete and close to release with some info on main features that's to draw in your consumer, but never intimate details of said features, for example surplus xp is a system we don't know about fully however it's linked to the XP system..but what DO we know about? Just about everything else that's a major feature and a selling point, Surplus XP is just something linked to leveling which obviously will be explained in due time because not only does it NOT affect how the game is played because you can still level and whatnot, but the beta build (yes beta build, a test version of a game, usually unbalanced) is hardly something to base a purchase around.....

I mean, look at Starcraft Ghost since Blizzard "always does it right and everyone should follow in their steps" and how did that turn out? Just because everything is thrown out there doesn't mean anything because sh*t happens and things can change and as said there IS a gap between western and eastern design, people acknowledge it and accept however many acknowledge it and believe one way is incorrect and one way is correct.



I was responding mostly to the statement that a multimillion dollar company shouldn't have to explain anything to me, the consumer. I am not particularly pointing out Beta.

Surplus EXP could indeed affect how I personally play the game. I am on limited time, If I have to grind for an hour longer then normal to gain a level because of it, then I will spend my time doing something else. Just because I can still grind, doesn't mean I will.

When it comes to things like this SE should really come out and say what the plan is. Do I think they will? No.
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#55 Aug 25 2010 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Surplus EXP could indeed affect how I personally play the game. I am on limited time, If I have to grind for an hour longer then normal to gain a level because of it, then I will spend my time doing something else. Just because I can still grind, doesn't mean I will.


I must admit, I never really paid attention to the brouhaha that's come about in respect of this so-called surplus system...now that my wife and I have a little boy, we probably wouldn't be able to play until we hit any fatigue limit anyway lol!

I just checked another thread in Zam which the OP was sub-defaulted, and you can understand why the folks at SE are getting annoyed by the misinformation:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1282682914112361412&page=1

And that thread is still on the first page of our general forums!



Edited, Aug 25th 2010 7:28am by Dik
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#56 Aug 25 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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It honestly suprises me someone working on the game in a high position can say something like this. It's pretty much a racist comment, the fact he would say it at all is bad enough but saying it less than 4 weeks from launch is plain stupid. Why not just say the playerbase instead of putting the blame solely at foreigners and then saying the JP's are just following their bad example? It's like your kid breaking a window or something and you saying "oh well he is good really but just those other kids are leading him astray"

JPs being racist against foreigners is a long standing belief, him stating something like this doesnt help them at all in how they are viewed. Also if it's so annoying to them for him to spout this kind of stuff it needs to be explained properly, this isnt some small detail thats fine left secret for the players to figure out its a major game feature that will affect sales.
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#57 Aug 25 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Dik wrote:
Quote:
Surplus EXP could indeed affect how I personally play the game. I am on limited time, If I have to grind for an hour longer then normal to gain a level because of it, then I will spend my time doing something else. Just because I can still grind, doesn't mean I will.


I must admit, I never really paid attention to the brouhaha that's come about in respect of this so-called surplus system...now that my wife and I have a little boy, we probably wouldn't be able to play until we hit any fatigue limit anyway lol!

I just checked another thread in Zam which the OP was sub-defaulted, and you can understand why the folks at SE are getting annoyed by the misinformation:



And that thread is still on the first page of our general forums!



They can't get upset with the "misinformation" because they haven't told anyone what the Surplus EXP system is all about. At this point it's all guessing. All they have to do to stop the rumors, is explain it.
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#58 Aug 25 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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preludes wrote:
It honestly suprises me someone working on the game in a high position can say something like this. It's pretty much a racist comment, the fact he would say it at all is bad enough but saying it less than 4 weeks from launch is plain stupid. Why not just say the playerbase instead of putting the blame solely at foreigners and then saying the JP's are just following their bad example? It's like your kid breaking a window or something and you saying "oh well he is good really but just those other kids are leading him astray"

JPs being racist against foreigners is a long standing belief, him stating something like this doesnt help them at all in how they are viewed. Also if it's so annoying to them for him to spout this kind of stuff it needs to be explained properly, this isnt some small detail thats fine left secret for the players to figure out its a major game feature that will affect sales.


So....

If the rumor started on a foreign site he's not allowed to say "foreigners" since you know, that's who technically did start it (unless Sankuwhatever site is actually a Japanese site??)? English > Japanese things can be lost in translation and misinterpreted which I'm pretty sure as he said himself is the case because when it starts circulating it already becomes bad and it begins circulating in a different language where meanings can change..it makes matters worse.

Americans for example are just as racist if not more than Japanese, especially when it comes to online gaming and to each other. I don't see how this is racist in any shape or form unless you're overly sensitive.
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#59 Aug 25 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Alkerr wrote:
Dik wrote:
Quote:
Surplus EXP could indeed affect how I personally play the game. I am on limited time, If I have to grind for an hour longer then normal to gain a level because of it, then I will spend my time doing something else. Just because I can still grind, doesn't mean I will.


I must admit, I never really paid attention to the brouhaha that's come about in respect of this so-called surplus system...now that my wife and I have a little boy, we probably wouldn't be able to play until we hit any fatigue limit anyway lol!

I just checked another thread in Zam which the OP was sub-defaulted, and you can understand why the folks at SE are getting annoyed by the misinformation:



And that thread is still on the first page of our general forums!



They can't get upset with the "misinformation" because they haven't told anyone what the Surplus EXP system is all about. At this point it's all guessing. All they have to do to stop the rumors, is explain it.


It amazes me that this concept is baffling to people.
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#60 Aug 25 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:


Americans for example are just as racist if not more than Japanese


You totally deflated your argument right there.

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#61 Aug 25 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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As far as all you saying you're not going to buy the game if it has this surplus in it. BYE BYE WE LUV U!!!
In all reality if you are so incapable of learning to play around the surplus then you probably will suck at playing your job and we don't want you around.


Yeah man because those two completely separate things have so much to do with one another.
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#62 Aug 25 2010 at 1:40 AM Rating: Excellent
So nobody else saw the Polish website (I won't link to it, I'm not interested in giving the crack-pottery there more oxygen than it already got) that was claiming SE had announced that fatigue was going to kick in after an hour's worth of play? I'm fairly certain that falls more into the category of falsifications than the speculation topics on sites like ZAM/BG/Eorzeapedia/Core et al.
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#63 Aug 25 2010 at 1:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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All I have to say is:

Tanaka will need a lot more than 150 characters to explain this one.

Although, like others have said: If I was working on a game for 5+ years, I'd get ticked off about people criticizing it.

However he needs to explain the system if there's any confusion! I just think this is a lapse in communication, whether it be from culture, artistic preference or whatever.

A good PR spin would be (in someplace other than Twitter):

"Thanks everyone for your continued support in the FFXIV beta. We've been hearing rumors about a "fatigue" system related to our new surplus system. We can assure players that no "fatigue" is taking place in regards to leveling. Although not fully implemented, we believe our surplus system will be beneficial to the community. We know that speculation is inevitable but as a reminder we are still in beta and further changes and explanations are on the way. Thanks again for your continued support!"

Now I wrote that in 5 min, I know nothing about marketing and damage control, but that's the least they can do.

In the end either let people criticize and let it go or explain yourself. With the advent of the internet and Twitter the former seems to have become a lot harder to respond to.
#64 Aug 25 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mieck, Pie Eating Champion wrote:
So nobody else saw the Polish website (I won't link to it, I'm not interested in giving the crack-pottery there more oxygen than it already got) that was claiming SE had announced that fatigue was going to kick in after an hour's worth of play? I'm fairly certain that falls more into the category of falsifications than the speculation topics on sites like ZAM/BG/Eorzeapedia/Core et al.


More than likely it was an editorial ploy to attract attention to their site. In addition it was probably approved because it is what someone saw in the beta test and thus they just took one side of it and exploited it, again for editorial reasons.

Yes it would be falsification, however it's news on a beta test which doesn't confirm anything regarding the official game that will be released. The website is the instigator, and we are free to interpret that information however we wish once information is released. True SE can just come out and clarify, but that is at their discretion.
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#65 Aug 25 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Good
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Players: "Hmm what's happening to my xp?"
SE: "We added a new system"
Players: "oh how does it work"
SE: ". . ."
Players: "Looks like a fatigue system."
SE: ". . ."
Players: "We don't like it, can you shine some light on the benefits?"
SE: ::Tumbleweeds::
Players: ". . ."
SE: "WTF it's your fault people don't want to buy our game! Stop thinking and just play you @#%^ foreigners"
Players: 凸(●´―`●)凸

Nice one.


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#66 Aug 25 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I just don't think a lack of information makes it open season to post rumors, lies, mistranslations, etc. as facts. And then blame it on the people not giving out information. Speculation is one thing, but this has gone way beyond that. It's irresponsible for the one spreading the false info and the ones believing it.

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#67 Aug 25 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
I just don't think a lack of information makes it open season to post rumors, lies, mistranslations, etc. as facts. And then blame it on the people not giving out information. Speculation is one thing, but this has gone way beyond that. It's irresponsible for the one spreading the false info and the ones believing it.



How can anyone know what is fact and what is fiction if SE won't clarify? Kind of hard to not spread lies, when you don't know which is which.
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#68 Aug 25 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
You don't make these decisions on a beta version of a game. You just don't and if you've been a gamer for even 5 years you never once make a purchase decision on a beta version of a game, especially a console game because you GENERALLY don't get to see nor play the beta versions but you're also given info once it's around complete and close to release with some info on main features that's to draw in your consumer, but never intimate details of said features, for example surplus xp is a system we don't know about fully however it's linked to the XP system..but what DO we know about?


Name one MMO released in the last 5 years that's been able to change enough to draw people in(and keep them) from a bad beta to release. Based on how MMOs in general have fared, I'd say the assumption that a beta version won't influence a "gamer" of 5 years is wrong.

On topic, we DO know that it drastically impacts how quickly you can level, and that the intent is to coerce you into leveling other jobs. Speculation may have been mistaken to some degree, but it's not unfounded.

Moreover, SE has stated that they expected fansites to report all about the game because they do it so much better than SE could ever hope to. I mean, if those sites are wrong due to a lack of info they only have themselves to blame, more so when they don't correct the mistake.

I'd say the truth would probably hurt their PR more, but no doubt they'll take some time to formulate an answer that answers nothing and serves to make people believe they'll be happy in the long run.
#69 Aug 25 2010 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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Just to point out, **** like this is why NDAs are often needed. Maybe they should have kept it on until the end of this beta phase.
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#70 Aug 25 2010 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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Alkerr wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I just don't think a lack of information makes it open season to post rumors, lies, mistranslations, etc. as facts. And then blame it on the people not giving out information. Speculation is one thing, but this has gone way beyond that. It's irresponsible for the one spreading the false info and the ones believing it.



How can anyone know what is fact and what is fiction if SE won't clarify? Kind of hard to not spread lies, when you don't know which is which.


I know a lot of the stuff I've read on the subject, especially that ridiculous article we keep bringing up about only being able to play for 1 hour, has been completely false compared to what I've experienced in beta. And there's plenty of other people in the beta here that can support that. As with anything you read on the internet, check multiple sources...

EDIT
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be great if SE just came out and explained it in detail. But they're being secretive about a whole lot of other things involving the game and no one is freaking out about it. Just this one issue for the most part...

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 4:34am by TwistedOwl
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#71 Aug 25 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I just don't think a lack of information makes it open season to post rumors, lies, mistranslations, etc. as facts. And then blame it on the people not giving out information. Speculation is one thing, but this has gone way beyond that. It's irresponsible for the one spreading the false info and the ones believing it.



How can anyone know what is fact and what is fiction if SE won't clarify? Kind of hard to not spread lies, when you don't know which is which.


I know a lot of the stuff I've read on the subject, especially that ridiculous article we keep bringing up about only being able to play for 1 hour, has been completely false compared to what I've experienced in beta. And there's plenty of other people in the beta here that can support that. As with anything you read on the internet, check multiple sources...


I agree with the fact that some of the claims are pretty far out there, but at the same time there are no solid facts for someone to reference and call them on their BS. Like Mikhalia pointed out earlier, since this is Beta, and the whole Surplus EXP system is in the Beta, the testers should know about the things they are testing.
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#72 Aug 25 2010 at 2:38 AM Rating: Good
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Tanaka answer on twitter most likely comes from the massive question asked on twitter. Imagine asking someone tons or question and add ridiculous rumor when he is busy rushing a dateline.

An offical statement will not come so soon, maybe its how business is run in the east but someone have to review and sign (thus taking responabilities) for the statement before it can be released. On top of disscussing if they should explain the system in the same statement.
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#73 Aug 25 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Good
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If the rumor started on a foreign site he's not allowed to say "foreigners" since you know, that's who technically did start it (unless Sankuwhatever site is actually a Japanese site??)? English > Japanese things can be lost in translation and misinterpreted which I'm pretty sure as he said himself is the case because when it starts circulating it already becomes bad and it begins circulating in a different language where meanings can change..it makes matters worse.

Americans for example are just as racist if not more than Japanese, especially when it comes to online gaming and to each other. I don't see how this is racist in any shape or form unless you're overly sensitive.


You would be hard pressed to find someone with as much blind unwavering faith in a company than you, even when they are in the wrong you can't see it from any other side than blind slaverish loyalty to SE.

Singling out one portion of your playerbase is always a stupid move, it's an attempt to make the Japanese players again see westerners as bad or disruptive. If he had just said the playerbase or some other word as a whole it would of been fine but singling out a large portion of people you want to buy your game is just stupid for someone in such a high position within the company. Given that the JPs are also concerned about this and him basically ignoring that saying it's the westerners fault for stiring it up is stupid.

They need to explain it and not try to be racist which could cause splits within the worldwide community of the game, FFXI suffered quite badly in its time from JP seperating themselves from western players and the way the devs are going it will happen again this time.

Quote:
Americans for example are just as racist if not more than Japanese


I think this used to be true but not so much now, Japan is probably the most racist nation you could find. Can you see any western company in this position doing what he just did against say chinese or japanese players if some rumour started on one of their websites about some product they were working on?
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#74 Aug 25 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I honestly face-palmed at this, I mean what did Tanaka seriously expect to happen?

You implement a system into a game and not give anyone, including the people that are supposed to be testing said game, any kind of information about it and leave them to guess how the **** it works?

No ****, of course there's going to be speculation. People are going to try to figure out what it is and relay what information they gather from it whether it's wrong or not. But what irritates me more than anything about this is that they blame the evil foreigners for it.

What, really? Come on now Square, if you expect to have a market outside of Japan you can't go blaming people who spread rumors when you don't even take a moment out of your day to even explain it.

It has been said countless times and I've said it a bunch too. Guess I'll say it again:

Communicate. With. The. Player. Base.
#75 Aug 25 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Two things about this...

1) As most have pointed out, it's BETA they will test what they need to test, not what You, I or anybody else want them to test, this includes the type or amount of information they make available for those tests.

2) On the other hand, Tanaka is a public person, he should know better than the old "noJP VS JP" that we grow tired of growing tired about in FFXI, in fact he should not even talk about the player base separately "Players made rumors and those rumors became worse to the point they are out of control" that's the way a you deliver a message to the global media but wait... addressing a local player base in a complaint in a media not available to that player base well... way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Ken
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#76 Aug 25 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Good
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kenage wrote:
Two things about this...

1) As most have pointed out, it's BETA they will test what they need to test, not what You, I or anybody else want them to test, this includes the type or amount of information they make available for those tests.

2) On the other hand, Tanaka is a public person, he should know better than the old "noJP VS JP" that we grow tired of growing tired about in FFXI, in fact he should not even talk about the player base separately "Players made rumors and those rumors became worse to the point they are out of control" that's the way a you deliver a message to the global media but wait... addressing a local player base in a complaint in a media not available to that player base well... way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Ken


How can the Beta testers do their job in testing this, when they don't know what they're supposed to be looking for?
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#77 Aug 25 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Alkerr wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I just don't think a lack of information makes it open season to post rumors, lies, mistranslations, etc. as facts. And then blame it on the people not giving out information. Speculation is one thing, but this has gone way beyond that. It's irresponsible for the one spreading the false info and the ones believing it.



How can anyone know what is fact and what is fiction if SE won't clarify? Kind of hard to not spread lies, when you don't know which is which.


Easy, we go based on the facts that we have and can confirm for ourselves only. We know that the system is already in place in the beta. We know that the interview was done based on the beta questions. We know that the developer did not say that this system would be in place on the actual product. That is it.

I don't mind that people theorize possible outcomes. But it's another to say that it is the truth based on limited information and claim that it is going to be the end result. That would be a fallacy of argument called the slippery slope; politicians live off this stuff.
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#78 Aug 25 2010 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, it's beta. Sure they'll test what *they* need to test. It doesn't matter what *players* think about it.

That doesn't change anything. The fact is players will see what's in and make their choices based on whether they like it or not. Obviously somebody at SE just had a knee-jerk reaction to what players thought of their system or we wouldn't have this thread.
#79 Aug 25 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
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KayannaBigGrr wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I just don't think a lack of information makes it open season to post rumors, lies, mistranslations, etc. as facts. And then blame it on the people not giving out information. Speculation is one thing, but this has gone way beyond that. It's irresponsible for the one spreading the false info and the ones believing it.



How can anyone know what is fact and what is fiction if SE won't clarify? Kind of hard to not spread lies, when you don't know which is which.


Easy, we go based on the facts that we have and can confirm for ourselves only. We know that the system is already in place in the beta. We know that the interview was done based on the beta questions. We know that the developer did not say that this system would be in place on the actual product. That is it.

I don't mind that people theorize possible outcomes. But it's another to say that it is the truth based on limited information and claim that it is going to be the end result. That would be a fallacy of argument called the slippery slope; politicians live off this stuff.


Again, what is the point of implementing it in the Beta, when you don't inform the testers what they need to be looking for? The system could be broke, it could be working perfectly, no one knows.
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#80 Aug 25 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Alkerr wrote:
kenage wrote:
Two things about this...

1) As most have pointed out, it's BETA they will test what they need to test, not what You, I or anybody else want them to test, this includes the type or amount of information they make available for those tests.

2) On the other hand, Tanaka is a public person, he should know better than the old "noJP VS JP" that we grow tired of growing tired about in FFXI, in fact he should not even talk about the player base separately "Players made rumors and those rumors became worse to the point they are out of control" that's the way a you deliver a message to the global media but wait... addressing a local player base in a complaint in a media not available to that player base well... way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Ken


How can the Beta testers do their job in testing this, when they don't know what they're supposed to be looking for?
Sorry maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, as a developer you as your testers to test what you need them to test, not what they want to test.

And usually only provide them with the necessary information for that, cuz when you may be including x o y extra factor those may not even make it to the retail version, and isn't safe to talk about them due the fact that you could be unintentionally encouraging the community to expect that.

My point of view of course, I believe my second point is where the problem really resides.

Ken
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#81 Aug 25 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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XvirusTvirus wrote:
I support Tanaka. I know most of you have been missing this phrase so I'm gonna say it for you. "It's Beta" LMAO He needs to explain to everyone? How would they know if people are able to figure out how to beat the game if they explained it all to you kiddies. DO you need walkthroughs to beat games? Most games don't tell you what they are trying to do. They show you previews, you go buy it, and if you don't like it you put it on craigslist.

This is what happens when people think they make the game. SE is making the game, they set the rules. You think them being secretive is wrong and don't like what they are trying to do then don't buy the game. This is why I keep putting on these posts to stop with the negative posts when you know nothing about the system.

It's beta!!! Beta testers are to try the game and help the company know what they need to fix. If they explain you need to do this.

Step 1 Fight 5 dodos. You hit surplus stop fighting Dodos
Step 2 Fight 5 imps. You hit the next surplus stop fighting imps.
step 3 Fight 5 sheep. You hit the surplus again. Change jobs and start with step 1.

If you can't figure out how to play a game with limitations then your a casual gamer and you need this.

I don't know who or what made you people think you made the call of what is going into this game and what is not. Even if you're a tester you're not there to change the product. You're just there to test it and give them your opinion. They're the ones making the money not you. They'll decide what they want in the game.

Recap: Every game has limitations. "Every"
It's Beta. Nothing is set in stone. "Nothing"
It's SE's game. They set the Limitations and decide what stays and what don't. "It's SE's game"
Negative posts. Negativity only brings about more Negativity. "Posts about unknown things"

As far as all you saying you're not going to buy the game if it has this surplus in it. BYE BYE WE LUV U!!!
In all reality if you are so incapable of learning to play around the surplus then you probably will suck at playing your job and we don't want you around.

I hope that explained it to you all. LMAO Multimillion dollar company has to explain things. LMAO


Are you as retarded in real life?
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#82 Aug 25 2010 at 3:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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kenage wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
kenage wrote:
Two things about this...

1) As most have pointed out, it's BETA they will test what they need to test, not what You, I or anybody else want them to test, this includes the type or amount of information they make available for those tests.

2) On the other hand, Tanaka is a public person, he should know better than the old "noJP VS JP" that we grow tired of growing tired about in FFXI, in fact he should not even talk about the player base separately "Players made rumors and those rumors became worse to the point they are out of control" that's the way a you deliver a message to the global media but wait... addressing a local player base in a complaint in a media not available to that player base well... way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Ken


How can the Beta testers do their job in testing this, when they don't know what they're supposed to be looking for?
Sorry maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, as a developer you as your testers to test what you need them to test, not what they want to test.

And usually only provide them with the necessary information for that, cuz when you may be including x o y extra factor those may not even make it to the retail version, and isn't safe to talk about them due the fact that you could be unintentionally encouraging the community to expect that.

My point of view of course, I believe my second point is where the problem really resides.

Ken


What then, is the point of implementing it in Beta when you don't want any feedback on it?
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#83 Aug 25 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Alkerr wrote:

How can the Beta testers do their job in testing this, when they don't know what they're supposed to be looking for?


I don't have much testing experience, but I see 2 sides to this argument. If told exactly what to test, players may(or probably will) adjust their playing habits accordingly. Focusing on those things specifically. Perhaps they want people playing as they normally would, so whatever info & testing they're collecting on their end is received under normal playing circumstances...seems to make sense...
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#84 Aug 25 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Good
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kenage wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
kenage wrote:
Two things about this...

1) As most have pointed out, it's BETA they will test what they need to test, not what You, I or anybody else want them to test, this includes the type or amount of information they make available for those tests.

2) On the other hand, Tanaka is a public person, he should know better than the old "noJP VS JP" that we grow tired of growing tired about in FFXI, in fact he should not even talk about the player base separately "Players made rumors and those rumors became worse to the point they are out of control" that's the way a you deliver a message to the global media but wait... addressing a local player base in a complaint in a media not available to that player base well... way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Ken


How can the Beta testers do their job in testing this, when they don't know what they're supposed to be looking for?
Sorry maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, as a developer you as your testers to test what you need them to test, not what they want to test.

And usually only provide them with the necessary information for that, cuz when you may be including x o y extra factor those may not even make it to the retail version, and isn't safe to talk about them due the fact that you could be unintentionally encouraging the community to expect that.

My point of view of course, I believe my second point is where the problem really resides.

Ken


Testers cannot test a product properly if they don't know what you need them to test for though. That's the problem.SE doesn't come out and say "We added X, Y, Z and want you to test X, Y, Z";they say NOTHING and the result is that nothing will get tested properly.

I don't argue that the developer wants testers to focus on certain things, just that testers can't focus on ANYTHING if the devs give them NO information at all.
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#85 Aug 25 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Alkerr wrote:
kenage wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
kenage wrote:
Two things about this...

1) As most have pointed out, it's BETA they will test what they need to test, not what You, I or anybody else want them to test, this includes the type or amount of information they make available for those tests.

2) On the other hand, Tanaka is a public person, he should know better than the old "noJP VS JP" that we grow tired of growing tired about in FFXI, in fact he should not even talk about the player base separately "Players made rumors and those rumors became worse to the point they are out of control" that's the way a you deliver a message to the global media but wait... addressing a local player base in a complaint in a media not available to that player base well... way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Ken


How can the Beta testers do their job in testing this, when they don't know what they're supposed to be looking for?
Sorry maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, as a developer you as your testers to test what you need them to test, not what they want to test.

And usually only provide them with the necessary information for that, cuz when you may be including x o y extra factor those may not even make it to the retail version, and isn't safe to talk about them due the fact that you could be unintentionally encouraging the community to expect that.

My point of view of course, I believe my second point is where the problem really resides.

Ken


What then, is the point of implementing it in Beta when you don't want any feedback on it?
Could be several things, check the system stress on the new feature, compare character speed progress before and after, etc. Tt not necessarily need to be for feedback.

Ken
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#86 Aug 25 2010 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
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205 posts
Alkerr wrote:
KayannaBigGrr wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I just don't think a lack of information makes it open season to post rumors, lies, mistranslations, etc. as facts. And then blame it on the people not giving out information. Speculation is one thing, but this has gone way beyond that. It's irresponsible for the one spreading the false info and the ones believing it.



How can anyone know what is fact and what is fiction if SE won't clarify? Kind of hard to not spread lies, when you don't know which is which.


Easy, we go based on the facts that we have and can confirm for ourselves only. We know that the system is already in place in the beta. We know that the interview was done based on the beta questions. We know that the developer did not say that this system would be in place on the actual product. That is it.

I don't mind that people theorize possible outcomes. But it's another to say that it is the truth based on limited information and claim that it is going to be the end result. That would be a fallacy of argument called the slippery slope; politicians live off this stuff.


Again, what is the point of implementing it in the Beta, when you don't inform the testers what they need to be looking for? The system could be broke, it could be working perfectly, no one knows.


I cannot argue on the point because that is something that is up to the developers at SE to know.

I could theorize that it if I stumbled upon their system and used it to their liking then so be it. If I didn't then they may make adjustments and make innuendos to see if I might have the potential to use it. In a sense it's a blind test to see if the tester, without knowing might use something or do something if presented with a road block.

Again, it's a beta and it is up to the developers to interpret their data however it happens, IF it happens.
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#87 Aug 25 2010 at 3:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:
Alkerr wrote:

How can the Beta testers do their job in testing this, when they don't know what they're supposed to be looking for?


I don't have much testing experience, but I see 2 sides to this argument. If told exactly what to test, players may(or probably will) adjust their playing habits accordingly. Focusing on those things specifically. Perhaps they want people playing as they normally would, so whatever info & testing they're collecting on their end is received under normal playing circumstances...seems to make sense...


As someone who does have software testing experience in non-game scenarios, just giving a product to your testers and seeing what they do with it is not going to provide any sort of quality feedback. It may work for a tech demo or to let the customer **** around with the product, but if you're trying to actually bug test and get tester feedback and quality results, you need to tell your testers -what- you want them to test and -how-.

I support SE's right to be closed-lipped post release; that's their choice. But in beta stages where they're expecting to find and address issues, they can't expect quality results if they aren't communicating with their testers. They just can't.
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#88 Aug 25 2010 at 3:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only explanation I can figure out is that SE doesn't care what we have to say about this particular system.

They could have still explained it if they care about the false speculation though.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:09am by Hyanmen
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#89 Aug 25 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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It's becoming more and more obvious to me that many posters in this thread have no software development experience.

Not that I expect them to; most people don't have experience with development, implementation, documentation, support, test, that sort of thing...

But it's very obvious that many posters in this thread are thinking like a gamer or a consumer, and not like a tester/developer.
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#90 Aug 25 2010 at 3:23 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder if beta for FFXI was like this? What rumors were flying around then? Of those rumors what was actually implemented and what was actually just BS. Anyone did beta testing for XI?
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#91 Aug 25 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Good
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150 posts
@Tanaka
You know, if you introduce something controversial and then offer little or no explanation you shouldn't be surprised when people complain and rumors start to fly around. I know that a lot of the SE team is busy right now but I doubt that the situation has just come to your attention and if it has someone wasn't doing their job.

The point of relaxing a NDA is to allow people to discuss the game and build anticipation for the game, after that happens someone should be ready to address situations like this as quickly as possible to avoid negative publicity.

Blaming foreign communities really isn't a good idea even if it's true, as it tends to alienate players.
There may be some truth to the comment as Japanese culture and thinking can be so different from that of foreign Asia, I don't know what Japanese forums are like so I can't comment. I hope the comment was said in frustration and was not what you really believe. To think after all these years of purchasing Square Soft and Square Enix merchandise we might be seen as nothing more than a nuisance is pretty disheartening.

I for one never complained about anything but the existing system as it has been introduced to the community by beta members. Any annoyance in my posts was because of the lack of information and the blind following of some Final Fantasy fans. I believe in the last post I made on the subject I actually pointed out that everything was still up in the air and left it like that.

With so little time between now and release if you don't answer questions about certain things I would think it is obvious that some people are going to worry or complain. From what I know about the system as it has been presented to me I personally don't like it, as we learn more about the system or changes or made to it my opinion may change completely.

I'm not here to spread rumors or misrepresent the game, I'm here because I enjoy the series and I want this to be the best game it can be, regardless of if I end up playing.

tl;tr: Stop blaming other people for rumors spread through lack of communication and/or secretive practices so close to launch.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 6:13am by Osanshouo
#92 Aug 25 2010 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's becoming more and more obvious to me that many posters in this thread have no software development experience.


It doesn't even need to go into that extent. Its sheer common sense - plain and simple. Things cannot be tested without any real direction. This is like a friggen epiphany to some people.
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#93 Aug 25 2010 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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Vackashken wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's becoming more and more obvious to me that many posters in this thread have no software development experience.


It doesn't even need to go into that extent. Its sheer common sense - plain and simple. Things cannot be tested without any real direction. This is like a friggen epiphany to some people.


The problem with COMMON sense is that it isn't :P
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#94 Aug 25 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Vackashken wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's becoming more and more obvious to me that many posters in this thread have no software development experience.


It doesn't even need to go into that extent. Its sheer common sense - plain and simple. Things cannot be tested without any real direction. This is like a friggen epiphany to some people.


The problem with COMMON sense is that it isn't :P



Apparently so. :3
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#95 Aug 25 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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205 posts
Vackashken wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Vackashken wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's becoming more and more obvious to me that many posters in this thread have no software development experience.


It doesn't even need to go into that extent. Its sheer common sense - plain and simple. Things cannot be tested without any real direction. This is like a friggen epiphany to some people.


The problem with COMMON sense is that it isn't :P



Apparently so. :3


YEA, those farging iceholes don't know who they're dealing with. Somenom-botches!....wait, I'm one of them.... ; ;
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#96 Aug 25 2010 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
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KayannaBigGrr wrote:

YEA, those farging iceholes don't know who they're dealing with. Somenom-botches!....wait, I'm one of them.... ; ;


Johnny Dangerously....great movie
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#97 Aug 25 2010 at 4:57 AM Rating: Decent
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<rant>
Wow, SE staying completely tightlipped on major, game-changing features and treating their non-JP playerbase like unwanted pests. Never saw THAT before, nosireebob. They COULD put an end to all the rumors by just coming out and @#%^ing saying "Ok, this is exactly how Surplus works, etc. etc.," but of course, that would mean catering to all those @#%^ing braindead WoW kiddies. No, better to just keep everyone in the dark and blame it all on those INFERIOR non-JPs.

New game, same @#%^ing company.

And I bet you that if an American developer made some kind of "Those **** dirty feriners!" comment, the friggin' Anti Defamation League would be calling for his head. But we all know that only white people are capable of racism, amirite? (/eyeroll)
</rant>

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 6:58am by RajiFarlander
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#98 Aug 25 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry, SE has no one to blame but themselves for this runaway. Instead of Tanaka complaining in response to testers, they should have just flat out said what the system was meant to do...not that everyone was wrong or misjudging the system. I don't expect the game concepts to be handed to us on a silver platter, but this is just a bad PR move.

While it may not always be true, the customer is usually in the right, especially when you're hoping to garner millions in sub fees very, very soon.
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#99 Aug 25 2010 at 5:37 AM Rating: Good
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Ya know Tanaka-San, there's an easy way to fix this: REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME! I mean, sheesh, you're the only ones that really WANT it there in the first place. . .


. . .Just sayin' ^^

[sorry for the grumpy, I haven't had my coffee yet]

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 7:39am by seneleron
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#100 Aug 25 2010 at 5:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I have to agree with Tanaka. Yes, SE didn't tell us the details of how the system works, but honestly what difference does it make?
So you don't know/understand every aspect of a unreleased game, big ******* deal. Sit on your ***, read the forums and wait for the game to come out so you can try it for yourself.
I don't get ****** at Bungie if they don't tell me everything about a new Halo before it comes out. I wait, buy it when it does come out, take the time to learn were all the goodies are, then enjoy the game tea bagging all the ********.
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#101 Aug 25 2010 at 5:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not going to say I'm taking either side, but I have a feeling a language barrier among other things is blowing this way out of proportion.
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