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Tanaka Tires of "Fatigue" RumorsFollow

#102 Aug 25 2010 at 6:15 AM Rating: Good
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Btw, there is a new developer's post at the (Japanese) beta tester's site
that explains the whole system in minute detail. Talk about fast reaction ^.^/

Basically it's 8 hours per week @100% Skill increase, then dwindling to 0
in 10% increments during the following 7 hours. However, this is class-specific.
So playing another class will give you a fresh 100% start for that class for 8 hours.

As pysical level is shared between classes, however, after 8 hours/week it's
down the road no matter what.

And SE seems pretty adamant about that.

Which I, personally cheer them for. Some people simply have to be guided to
get a life. Or play WoW. Or a Korean Grinder.

Of course, you CAN play longer without switching classes and you WILL get EXP.
But by playing double the "normal" time for that class (16 hours) will net you
only 150% of what a 8-hour-player gets.

The only thing SE did wrong was naming this a "fatigue/penalty" system. If they had
stated that "for the first 8 hours every week, you'll get a 100% EXP bonus. Yay!"
everybody would have been happy. Although technically this would be the same thing.

Psychology, psychology.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 8:16am by Rinsui
#103 Aug 25 2010 at 6:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The only thing SE did wrong was naming this a "fatigue/penalty" system.


I thought it was "surplus" or am I missing something?
#104 Aug 25 2010 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Post retracted for the time being.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:23am by seneleron
GG, confused my posts. . . I need more coffee




Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:38am by seneleron

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:39am by seneleron
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#105 Aug 25 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'm not going to say I'm taking either side, but I have a feeling a language barrier among other things is blowing this way out of proportion.


After reading Tanaka's coment again I have to agree with the above post.

Quote:
"Foreign sites have lots of false rumors. They throw together words and fabricate remarks. Then Japanese sites take this and further [falsify it through] mistranslation. The fatigue point criticism has absolutely nothing to do with the actual [system] and is just full of wild ideas."


The parts in Bold lead me to believe that there might be some misstranslation on both non JP and JP players part that escalated the situation. IMO who ever is acusing the guy of being racist should take a good look in the mirror.

Also, ever since I came back to this forum I always had the idealized sense that the FFXI comunity (the first gaming comunity I felt part of) was of a more mature kind than lets say WoW. The past week has disabused me of that feeling and reminded me that your first love will always have a special place in your heart even if it is misplaced.

When did FF comunity start to demand to know how things work from SE. In FFXI if anything things were quite the oposite; even though SE might say that facing a certain way while crafting was a crazy idea some players still believed it.

At the end of the day this is and will always be SE's game, we either chose to play it or not. If you want to play a game in which it's development is guided by customer demands then you should consider WoW.

I see a lot of people dishing out Tanaka's comment but without going to the trouble of double checking I would bet most of you also fomented the hype of crazy ideas related to this issue.
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#106 Aug 25 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
and lashed out at foreign sites on Twitter today, calling them full of rumors and fabrications.


Well, lets be fair guys, it's really hard to adequately describe any complex system in just 140 characters...
#107 Aug 25 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Default
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"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)


Ayayay. Analogy for the sake of analogy, eh?
You are aware that we are only talking about a
stupid computer game here? No need to pull out
the big ethics guns about the communist menace,
jews, and the little **** in each of us.

Btw, technically you never had any "rights" concerning
their game whatsoever. You seemed to be quite happy
with that up to now, when it actually might affect you...?


Edited, Aug 25th 2010 8:45am by Rinsui
#108 Aug 25 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ya know Tanaka-San, there's an easy way to fix this: REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME! I mean, sheesh, you're the only ones that really WANT it there in the first place. . .

The reason I was against surplus EXP was because it was presented as a way to force you to play other jobs while you waited for a cool down. The system doesn't need to be changed it just needs modification.

This is just one way that seems plausible to me.
1. Surplus EXP should have been introduced as base EXP.
2. Touching an Aetheryte or something should activate Bonus EXP.
3. The value of Bonus EXP should be comparable to that of party EXP.

Let's say your a casual player getting around the same amount of EXP that you would be getting in a party soloing.
"Oh no, surplus EXP just kicked in!"
Time to do some Guildleves, caft, work on other content, or just log off.

Now if you have a bit more play time and want to get more EXP you can join a party, heck you can just skip the whole soloing process and start partying from the start because Bonus EXP would be comparable to party EXP anyway.
From what I've heard you get more EXP soloing than in a party, if this is true it obviously needs to be changed in this scenario.

If they presented the surplus EXP in this context I feel it would achieve the same goal. and make everyone happy.

It's like if you went to jail and they had cake every day for a week and you became quite happy with cake.
Cake was presented as a normal thing.
Then the next week all they suddenly had was rape and you found out that cake had a one week cool down.
Obviously you would be disappointed with the change and wonder why you had to have rape for a whole week when there was plenty of cake in the freezer.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 8:46am by Osanshouo
#109 Aug 25 2010 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I am buying a game. This game is an MMO. I will be paying $15/month on top of my software purchase. Once I have done this, I should be able to play what I want, when I want.


Wrong, the $15 entitle you to play the game as intended, you need to abide by the ToU and such. If it really entitled you to play as wanted then you might as well ask for infinite Gil and not have to worry about costs.
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#110 Aug 25 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Default
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seneleron wrote:
Quote:
I have to agree with Tanaka. Yes, SE didn't tell us the details of how the system works, but honestly what difference does it make?


I will take the time and patience, just this once, to explain this.

I am buying a game. This game is an MMO. I will be paying $15/month on top of my software purchase. Once I have done this, I should be able to play what I want, when I want. And here come the developers, and they say "well you can't. We're making the game in such a way as to FORCE you to stop doing what you're doing at a certain point, and either stop playing for a while [which some reports have claimed days] before you can continue to progress with that certain class.

So people have, naturally, turned to SE for answers, because not being able to play a game the way you feel like playing it when you're paying them $15/month kinda doesn't sit well for some people. But SE not only refuses to clarify the situation, now the Devs are angrily blaming their entire North American Customer base for all the misinformation and confusion regarding said system that's being spread by, best I can make out, people who have taken issue with SE for unknown reasons.

And to all the people that say "I don't care, because this doesn't effect me, I'd like to quote the following:

Quote:
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)


just another something to think about ^^

Quote:
Which I, personally cheer them for. Some people simply have to be guided to
get a life. Or play WoW. Or a Korean Grinder.


Excuse you. THIS IS MY CHOICE TO MAKE. I'm the one paying $15/month, *I* will decide how much XP time is okay for me. I work my job, I feed my family, I raise my kids. What I do with the rest of the time is my choice to make. Will these restrictions ACTUALLY affect me? I have no idea, but I will still fight for my RIGHT to make that choice.




Edited, Aug 25th 2010 8:19am by seneleron

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 8:20am by seneleron


Ok, you do have some good quotes there, I'll give you that.
And as I said on another post about the whole surplus thing. I believe people are misunderstanding it. It's a 100% BONUS, therefore it's like a automatic empress band effect that wears off. I seriously doubt that SE will restrict actual gameplay from a game, aside from updates/patches and such.
You say that since you pay for it you should be able to play what you want, when you want. I agree to this to a point, to me that's like saying 'well i just bought a game, i should be able to do this this and this'. Not trying to say you don't have a right to be upset or anything or saying your points/reasons/choices are wrong. Just offering my opinion.
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#111 Aug 25 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Ayayay. Analogy for the sake of analogy, eh?
You are aware that we are only talking about a
stupid computer game here? No need to pull out
the big ethics guns about the communist menace,
jews, and the little **** in each of us.


I wasn't, I was pulling out the big ethics guns about the corporate menace, consumers, and the little SHEEPLE in all of us that lets corporations walk all over us and dictate how we use our own legally purchased products :D "It doesn't matter because it doesn't affect me" tends to be a consistent decision rather than a niche for "just a stupid computer game".

I'm still retracting my entire above post, as I believe I may have misunderstood the system in it's entirety. But I had to answer that because I'm sick of people saying "It's just a game" or "it's just a phone", or "It's just a console" right up until they complain that their equipment was remotely disabled/bricked because the manufacturer didn't like the way person X was using it. It's just the way consumers are starting to let large corporations run roughshod over their entire lives. If you wanna live that way, I can't stop you. . but I'm not gonna stop callin' it when I see it.
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#112 Aug 25 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Btw, there is a new developer's post at the (Japanese) beta tester's site
that explains the whole system in minute detail. Talk about fast reaction ^.^/

Basically it's 8 hours per week @100% Skill increase, then dwindling to 0
in 10% increments during the following 7 hours. However, this is class-specific.
So playing another class will give you a fresh 100% start for that class for 8 hours.

As pysical level is shared between classes, however, after 8 hours/week it's
down the road no matter what.

And SE seems pretty adamant about that.

Which I, personally cheer them for. Some people simply have to be guided to
get a life. Or play WoW. Or a Korean Grinder.

Of course, you CAN play longer without switching classes and you WILL get EXP.
But by playing double the "normal" time for that class (16 hours) will net you
only 150% of what a 8-hour-player gets.

The only thing SE did wrong was naming this a "fatigue/penalty" system. If they had
stated that "for the first 8 hours every week, you'll get a 100% EXP bonus. Yay!"
everybody would have been happy. Although technically this would be the same thing.

Psychology, psychology.


That doesn't sound right to me, as "8 hours/week" would amount to a little over 1 hour/day on any one class and that sounds TOO extreme to be serving the (supposed) intended purpose. It also does not explain what happens with the "surplus EXP" players are supposedly "gaining."

If it were simply an EXP cut, I don't know why the game would be coded to show us that we "gained x amount of surplus EXP." I don't even think the term "surplus" would be used if that were the case, as a "surplus" refers to an amount of a product that is in excess of what is needed (the product being EXP in this case), however that excess product still exists somewhere; it IS the surplus. If we were JUST "not getting as much EXP as we did before", surplus would not be an accurate term. Then it would be a fatigue system and I'd imagine the text would go from something like "You gain 200 EXP for killing Monster X." to "You gain a fatigued 100 EXP for killing Monster X." I'm sure it would be worded better, but you see my point.

It makes more sense to me that it works, as some beta players have assumed, to "transfer" some of that surplus EXP to other classes as a kind of EXP bonus. Not necessarily 100 EXP directly to them, but into a pool of "bonus" EXP that goes toward any class you level that is not currently under the effect of surplus. I know that doesn't alleviate the problem of the players who are only concerned with seeing their main class' number go up, but it might be a slightly better explanation for the ones who are concerned because they love playing one job and don't want to be forced to play others. Yes, it's true that they won't be getting as much EXP toward that class, but they're still getting an EXP bonus towards the "unappealing" classes that they may have to level anyway (due to the ability share system), similar to sub jobs as others have said. In other words, they can play the class they do like MORE, in order to be able to play their "sub jobs" LESS. Still, I don't think we should be forced to do that at all, but it is a little more palatable than the idea of EXP being lost straight into the void.

It's true that Tanaka should have been able to forsee the issue if he was implementing a system like that without explanation. I don't blame anyone for coming up with "wild speculations." I did pretty much the same thing, though we were almost excessively up in arms about the situation. I'm curious about how much SE really explained about any of the other systems in-game. Is it that this is just another one of many things that they did not explain before giving it to us to test, or is it "conveniently" the one thing we despise that they chose not to explain? In the first case I can understand how we come off looking a little bit ignorant; if we were okay with something not being explained (because it doesn't affect us negatively) but not okay with another thing being explained (because it does affect us negatively), then that's being a bit hypocritical, especially if we are using the argument "well, you should have told us because you wanted us to test it!" That's something that should be true of all things, whether we like them or not. If it's the other case (where SE is, for some reason, purposely lacking explanation on this one aspect of the game), then **** right he should have expected this because it is a purposely deceptive attitude (assuming everything else is explained to the testers' satisfaction) and not one that should be used when you're trying to test something. I'm assuming the truth is somewhere in the middle, but as I'm not in beta I have to ask to be sure.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:37am by Kaelia88
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#113 Aug 25 2010 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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It's a beta test. Part of a test is explaining to your testers what needs to be tested.

Have you ever tested a software product that was -not- a video game? Say an Operating System or a data application? I strongly doubt it. The programmers will typically let you know what features they've added and tell you what features need to be tested. They then expect the beta testers to use these features, verify they work, and attempt to break them.

Quote:
Let's say I write a program for an iPhone that will determine the area of a room. You punch in the width, length, and height, and it outputs the room's area in feet cubed.

Now let's say I add a feature that allows it to output data in meters cubed, but don't tell you about it. Now all of the sudden, you're wondering why your results are 1/3 of what you think they should be, and I'm not telling you anything about it. You talk to the other testers and determine that perhaps I changed some variable and again I say nothing. Then you tell the other testers that the results are off and that they need to multiply the results by 3 to get closer to the actual answer.

Then I come back and get all ****** because you're spreading misinformation.

See, that's the problem. Programmers and devs NEED to communicate new features to testers otherwise they don't get tested properly. I don't give a sh*t about beta tests in video games, but in the real world, where real applications are made and tested, the programmers and the testers communicate with each other on what new features need to be added, how they should be tested, and what happens as a result of certain testing.

If you were to ever test anything outside of games, you'd know this. It seems you're under the mistaken belief that a beta test is a fancy word for demo.

Try signing up to beta test the next distro of Ubuntu or Windows or something similarly elaborate to see how it's supposed to work in the real world.


Nice rant but completely off the mark. This isn't a beta test, its a stress test. All SE wants outside help for is stress testing and they don't need you to help read their clusters usage graphs.
#114 Aug 25 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Wrong, the $15 entitle you to play the game as intended, you need to abide by the ToU and such. If it really entitled you to play as wanted then you might as well ask for infinite Gil and not have to worry about costs.



1) I have no idea what ToU is.
2) SE does not provide you with infinite gil. To run with your idea though, as I understood it at the time it was more like "you can make all the gold you want, but SE is going to take 90% of it and give it to people who don't have money and can't spend the time to make it, because we need to reward casual gamers"

And your response is "IF it's in the Terms of Service, then that's okay".

Mind you, that's the way I understood the system AT THE TIME I ORIGINALLY MADE THE POST. I fully admit I was half awake, grumpy, and hadn't had my coffee yet. Again, I retracted my original post, and am reserving judgment until I can independently confirm the system the way I now understand it. I also admit I probably poured out my frustration with a dozen little things SE is doing into that one post in a moment of heat, and that was unfair of me.

I believe I may have made a mistake, okay? Let's just leave it at that.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:41am by seneleron
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#115 Aug 25 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
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This is absolutely ridiculous. You're aware of outrage by many in the community through self acknowledgement, complain about sites who are essentially "making stuff up", yet FAIL to give an answer as to what it is. If we're so confused how about you explain it to us?

I have a guess why -- because it is what we think and before you explain how it works you need to overhaul it!

Great work Mr. Tanaka!
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#116 Aug 25 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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@Rinsui "..As pysical level is shared between classes, however, after 8 hours/week it's
down the road no matter what.
And SE seems pretty adamant about that.
Which I, personally cheer them for. Some people simply have to be guided to
get a life. Or play WoW. Or a Korean Grinder."

My problem is people don't pay for these games and then pay every month to have a company "guide" them on how to supposedly get a life whether someone needs one or not by incorporating that into the actual gameplay. That's a contradiction anyway. A company who develops MMORPG's wanting to help people get a life? lmao. Good luck with that.. Video games and moderation is just pure bs anyway.

I accept that if this game is going to be a certain way then I can play it and stfu or move on. That's my choice..of course I'll be out the cash I paid for the CE but eh wouldn't be the first time I bought a game and it blew ***. I'm hoping it's pure greatness for years to come though.

Still, if I want to grind my *** off (and I did in ffxi but I also had my days, weeks, months off and play for only an hour or two sometimes) and play for hours on end a certain way on a particular job, not get any sleep, forget that I actually have to drink water or use the restroom and start to look like Cartman playing WoW then so be it. That's my decision. I know there are better things out there to set an example for moderation than a mmorpg people.

I get their idea I just don't dig it being forced on me to play a certain way for a mmorpg game like this as a follow up to ffxi or ff12 for that matter but that's how the game seems to be and you either accept it and play it and quit ******** or you go play Halo or something.


Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:45am by ruggertx
#117 Aug 25 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree that SE needs to provide better explanations of their systems. By not divulging that information testers are left to their own devices, and it swells to a class five ****-storm.
But calling SE xenophobic for placing the blame on the originator of the rumor is absurd.The outrage thats been circling the internet (1hr game play before fatigue set in, 2hr non progress-able) Was that a JP site or a non JP site? He placed blame where the rumor had its roots. It may have be averted if they explained how the system was to work but they didn't.

I do wish he would have went in further detail on how Fatigue was to work to clear the air, But for what ever reason he didn't maybe because the system isn't final, maybe it's just an idea they are developing. Maybe he isn't saying how it works cause it's a work in progress and he doesn't want to create a ****-storm by explaining the system and people taking his words as a set in stone final answer.
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#118 Aug 25 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
It's too bad that Tanaka's big "lesson" is that "foreigners are bad" instead of "We should do a better job of explaining penalty systems."
#119 Aug 25 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
Mistress Theonehio wrote:


Then they'd have to explain it in French, German and English which can sometimes have completely different meanings, look at even the FFXI update notes things can likely get lost in translation and as seen, people can indeed go wild with even knowing of a system's existence..think what would happen if stuff got lost in translations Smiley: eek


Sure, well, that's the cost of doing business internationally. If they don't want those English speaking, French speaking, and German speaking customers, then they don't need to worry about keeping them in the loop.

My general impression of S-E is that they care first and foremost how things are received in Japan. That's why when the rest of the world says "you MUST have a hardware mouse, it's a requirement" S-E says "We'll look into it" instead of "Of course, we'll implement it as soon as possible." Why? Because that's a gaijin feature. JPs don't complain about the mouse, because they don't play other MMOs, FPS, etc so they're not used to the idea of a mouse as a primary method of control. If JPs don't care, then S-E doesn't care, even though the potential for profit is much greater among non JPs than among JPs. They are, first and foremost, a Japanese game company aiming at Japanese players.
#120 Aug 25 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorely disappointed with how SE has handled this issue. It just serves to support the concerns that I have going into this game, and the reasons that I have yet to preorder.

As a very casual player, I'm not even concerned about the surplus/fatigue system. I doubt I'll play often enough for it to even affect me. But the handling of the matter really grinds my gears. It should not be this hard for a major company to put out a timely explanation of their system in order to quell fears and stop the spread of misinformation. Any small tidbit of explanation will do.

See, I've just getting bad vibes from a lot of things I've been reading. Dodging seemingly innocuous questions, providing vague non-answers....and all about gameplay system changes that seem quite drastic. They seem to have a very clear-cut idea of how they want gameplay to pan out in FFXIV....but will it be in a way that I like? I'm not sure anymore. And I've come to not expect an answer from SE that will help placate that feeling.

The game has made some nice improvements over FFXI. But for every step in the right direction, I see two steps backwards. The mouse lag concerns me. The poorly implemented UI concerns me (especially since there's no reason for it to be SO bad, even at this point; there are plenty of better, extant UI's in other games that they could have learned a little from). The weak customization options concern me. The market system concerns me. The lack of a decent tutorial concerns me. The clunky gameplay concerns me. I'd love to be able to explain these things off as being "just part of the beta" but I don't think I can convince myself of that anymore. SE has heard the complaints about them, but their responses in interviews seem dismissive to me. I wonder if they're satisfied with the status quo.

I'm feeling pretty bummed. I was so excited for this game, but SE has been slowly killing my passion for it since it was announced. I don't want to roll the dice on a game company that actively ignores, (or even disdains) portions of its player-base. I will no longer be preordering, and I think I may wait to read the first batch of reviews before deciding if I will even purchase FFXIV.

Smiley: frown

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:11pm by Eske
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#121 Aug 25 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
They are, first and foremost, a Japanese game company aiming at Japanese players.


^ this is truth. It was like this for XI and will be the same for XIV. Logically, you would think they would want to have more of a presence in other markets but they seem content to remain primarily focused on Japan, and have been for years. So, with that in mind, all the secrecy and non chalant attitude toward NA/EU players is pretty much par for the course.
#122 Aug 25 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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@Karl the Hung
Funny thing is that on all (non-official, like Alla) JP forums, people say that Tanaka caters far too much to the western tastes. Stop being "we against them" or grand-scale would-be armchair-crusaders against the general unfairness of the evil Japanese Empire and its manifestation, SE. We're all in the same boat. Tanaka didn't tell us a single word more than he told you until today.

They are really, really bad at communication. And Tanaka should have been more careful. But he never said that "only a stupid american site could state such *************** You're making your own Xenophibic image. He just complained that some non-japanese forums stated false information. Which is 100% true.

We're neither after your statue of liberty nor your constitution. And you can keep your chicken, too. Relax.
#123 Aug 25 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
@Karl the Hung
Funny thing is that on all (non-official, like Alla) JP forums, people say that Tanaka caters far too much to the western tastes. Stop being "we against them" or grand-scale would-be armchair-crusaders against the general unfairness of the evil Japanese Empire and its manifestation, SE. We're all in the same boat. Tanaka didn't tell us a single word more than he told you until today.

They are really, really bad at communication. And Tanaka should have been more careful. But he never said that "only a stupid american site could state such bullsh*t". You're making your own Xenophibic image. He just complained that some non-japanese forums stated false information. Which is 100% true.

We're neither after your statue of liberty nor your constitution. And you can keep your chicken, too. Relax.


"Hiromichi Tanaka" wrote:
Foreign sites have lots of false rumors. They throw together words and fabricate remarks.


I'm not sure what's there to misinterpret, he's clearly saying that foreign sites are making stuff up and then goes on to say that it's confusing Japanese players.

You're completely correct in that SE is horribad at communication, which is frankly shocking at this point. In the late 90s and early 00s (?) it didn't matter, now we have juggernauts like Blizzard and NCSoft who are more than happy to talk to their customers about what they're doing in their MMOs. SE's policy of "for the love of God don't tell them things" is not in keeping with the times.
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#124 Aug 25 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Rinsui wrote:
@Karl the Hung
Funny thing is that on all (non-official, like Alla) JP forums, people say that Tanaka caters far too much to the western tastes. Stop being "we against them" or grand-scale would-be armchair-crusaders against the general unfairness of the evil Japanese Empire and its manifestation, SE. We're all in the same boat. Tanaka didn't tell us a single word more than he told you until today.

They are really, really bad at communication. And Tanaka should have been more careful. But he never said that "only a stupid american site could state such bullsh*t". You're making your own Xenophibic image. He just complained that some non-japanese forums stated false information. Which is 100% true.

We're neither after your statue of liberty nor your constitution. And you can keep your chicken, too. Relax.


I never said it was unfair. I said it's my observation. If S-E is content to be a niche presence in NA and Europe (and they seem to be content) then it's not a problem for them. If they're really trying to expand and make the most money they can in these markets, then they need to do a much better job of addressing those markets and catering to them in every way they can that doesn't dilute the game experience.

If you really think this is an "Us vs Them" discussion, then substitute "Blizzard" for "S-E" and "China" for "Non JP" and the argument works just about as well. It's natural for game developers to be ethnocentric in their designs because that's where they get the most immediate feedback and that's the culture they're from. Just as an American video game company has to work much harder to appeal to the desires of the Chinese market, a Japanese video game company has to work harder to appeal to Americans, or Europeans.
#125 Aug 25 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Foreign sites have lots of false rumors. They throw together words and fabricate remarks.


Whatever old man Tanaka said, this definitely wasn't it. His English is rather poor.

...which might make some of the brighter people think: "Maybe the translation by that privately-run Gamerpage was not 110% correct?". Especially, since there is neither singular or plural in Japanese, it is very hard to determine whether he meant one specific page or "The EVIL AMERICAN EMPIRE" ;) in general.

Relax. Don't fall for the marketing catchphrases of a page that is financed by page impressions (clicks of visiting viewers).
#126 Aug 25 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm quite happy with the explained version.

My only concern is if you built a PT up and every one was close in level but half were out of surplus and the other half were not... well depending on how lenient the level gap system is, it could lead to imbalance in the PT. I know that certain players are more adamant about no more than 1 level gap, but those are the types this will affect the most.

Otherwise it sounds like a good system to me.
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#127 Aug 25 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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yeah I think I'm gonna cancel my CE preorder as well. Yes, I know how betas are. Trust me I've been in quite a few that were just complete abortions then got better as time went along but I will play this on PS3 next year and I'll just spend the CE cash on Halo Reach for xbox.

Just not feeling this game after playing in the betas for awhile. It's become more of an asswhipping than anything from all the drama to the beta itself. Plus my attitude just ruins it for everyone else in and out of the game so I'll step aside and let ya'll handle it.

I gave SE my beta input and did my job in a rational matter.. pretty much what has already been said 1000 times over. Let's hope they turn it into something decent or at least get on the right track over the next year. Jumping in the 2nd year actually wouldn't be all that bad.

After playing in ffxi since 2002 up till last March I still am in this ffxi mindset that doesn't apply to ffxiv and I need a little longer break.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 11:48am by ruggertx
#128 Aug 25 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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@Karl
And exactly how often have you seen the other side of the medal?

As I said, SE communication department sucks. 100%.
But at least, from my perspective, they are quite fair in their distribution of suckedness around the globe.

That is, after they decided to start sucking in Japan, too ^.^/


Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:52pm by Rinsui
#129 Aug 25 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Default
Hulan wrote:
Normally I would call this an overreaction, but after having read not one, but two threads about that "interview" stating that Fatigue will hit in an hour, that it will reduce you to 0 exp, that it will take two days to wear off, and worst, that it effects all characters on an account; I think this is pretty bloody well deserved. In fact, assuming that this is indeed a response to those baseless rumors, I applaud him on his quick response to them.


This. I'm sick of all the frigging doomsaying. People need to get a grip.
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#130 Aug 25 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Hulan wrote:
Normally I would call this an overreaction, but after having read not one, but two threads about that "interview" stating that Fatigue will hit in an hour, that it will reduce you to 0 exp, that it will take two days to wear off, and worst, that it effects all characters on an account; I think this is pretty bloody well deserved. In fact, assuming that this is indeed a response to those baseless rumors, I applaud him on his quick response to them.


This. I'm sick of all the frigging doomsaying. People need to get a grip.



People also need to learn to be able to discern plausible information from total crap. If you read these "interviews" and immediately freaked and went to cancel your pre order then, well, weak with the force are you.
#131 Aug 25 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I pre-ordered the game. I'm going to play the game, and after a few months I'll look at it and then decide whether I'm happy and whether I'll continue to play it.
As for the beta testers who think they should understand everything right now, so they can give their opinions and feedback to SE, do you really believe the game is changeable at this point in time? That the CD's aren't already in their shiny plastic cases, ready to ship out? I think everyone in beta is a server load test. The game itself is a done deal already.
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#132 Aug 25 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
Vorkosigan wrote:
I pre-ordered the game. I'm going to play the game, and after a few months I'll look at it and then decide whether I'm happy and whether I'll continue to play it.
As for the beta testers who think they should understand everything right now, so they can give their opinions and feedback to SE, do you really believe the game is changeable at this point in time? That the CD's aren't already in their shiny plastic cases, ready to ship out? I think everyone in beta is a server load test. The game itself is a done deal already.


Some things on the DVD won't be changing; but I can bet that after installing the game, SE will treat you to a lovely "Updating..." screen to implement any changes (and I'm sure there will be changes) between the time they packaged everything and the time everything goes live.
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#133 Aug 25 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
Rinsui wrote:
@Karl
And exactly how often have you seen the other side of the medal?


Sorry, your metaphor is unclear to me. If you're asking me whether I have seen things from the perspective of JPs, the answer is that I have not. It's not a JP vs NA discussion any way, except in the minor sense that Tanaka apparently emphasized the fact that it was a foreign site rather than simply saying that it was a site. The rumor (which I said was garbage from the very beginning, on this forum) only gained traction because no one, NA or JP or Euro, had any idea how surplus/fatigue/whatever is actually supposed to work.

Quote:

As I said, SE communication department sucks. 100%.
But at least, from my perspective, they are quite fair in their distribution of suckedness around the globe.

That is, after they decided to start sucking in Japan, too ^.^/


And once again I have to point out that I never said it was unfair. You're projecting an argument that I never made.

Like it or not, S-E is not competing in NA or Europe with S-E in Japan. It doesn't matter whether they're being equally terrible in Japan. What matters is there is a cultural expectation in NA and Europe that any MMO company is going to be forthcoming with information and cater to the needs of that culture (ie, supporting mouse control fully, for example). S-E is competing with expectations that have been created by Blizzard, NCsoft, Bioware, Mythic, CCP, and so on. Rightly or wrongly, that's the standard that is set within this market. Maybe that same expectation exists in Japan, or maybe it doesn't. I speak for NA because that's my perspective.

What Tanaka said is factually correct, assuming a small amount of mis translation. That doesn't address the reason that such a baseless rumor spread so quickly and with so much energy. The underlying problem is that people have been perplexed and angry over Surplus XP for months now, and S-E never bothered to address it or explain how it works. So of course, as soon as some one comes out and starts acting like they're an expert and they have inside information, the gullible souls of the world eat it up like it's genuine information, because what else do they have to compare it to?




Edited, Aug 25th 2010 2:33pm by KarlHungis
#134 Aug 25 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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SE did a poor job explaining things to us. So what ends up happening is we get creative based on what the game should be like and talk about it.

For a game to be successful, they need to market well and show customers features. You know SE's main website is horrible. I looked at it so many times, everything is VAGUE. It tells me nothing about DoH and DoL skills, abilities, etc. They need to document or describe things better. I mean if I wanted to be a Goldsmith well can you elaborate? I understand the game can be fun with hidden secrets but Tanaka doesn't need to tell EVERYTHING.

Just give us some info so we can start off!

And same thing with culinarians, I see no recipe information. For a new player, this is totally bad. Poor information and can get lost easily. I could see people quitting less than a month.
#135 Aug 25 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

As someone who does have software testing experience in non-game scenarios, just giving a product to your testers and seeing what they do with it is not going to provide any sort of quality feedback. It may work for a tech demo or to let the customer **** around with the product, but if you're trying to actually bug test and get tester feedback and quality results, you need to tell your testers -what- you want them to test and -how


I don't disagree with you - in certain cases. When I used to do website testing, one of the things that we did was bring in folks who had never seen the site before, and see how they navigate it. Are they able to find things quickly? Does it make sense to them? Is our message getting through? Are they getting frustrated trying to find what they want?

I can kind of see SE trying to test this like a website - and unfortunately their tendency to add unnecessarily complex systems backfired. Nobody understood it, and it wasn't intuitive to figure out, and thus the rumors started because there was no other outlet. In my website testing scenario, the situation is contained - we see the issues that the "players" are having, and we adjust accordingly so that it makes more sense for our target audience. It's an open dialogue. It just looks like SE dropped the ball on this one, and so close to release they really can't afford to do that.
#136 Aug 25 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Hulan wrote:
Normally I would call this an overreaction, but after having read not one, but two threads about that "interview" stating that Fatigue will hit in an hour, that it will reduce you to 0 exp, that it will take two days to wear off, and worst, that it effects all characters on an account; I think this is pretty bloody well deserved. In fact, assuming that this is indeed a response to those baseless rumors, I applaud him on his quick response to them.


This. I'm sick of all the frigging doomsaying. People need to get a grip.



People also need to learn to be able to discern plausible information from total crap. If you read these "interviews" and immediately freaked and went to cancel your pre order then, well, weak with the force are you.


Yeah but everyone who lit their hair on fire is rating us down for suggesting they should have waited for real info before freaking out. I am almost ready to join Wint in a sabbatical of this site until people get a grip.
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#137 Aug 25 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
I keep seeing this in my head while reading :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WREzKwcJDCc&NR=1
#138 Aug 25 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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I don't get it.

Komoto's message about blowing things out of proportion, not understand the system etc. Now that we have some extra details about the system it seems to be exactly what we thought it was... a limiter of play-time and more of a hinder to the hardcore than a reward to the casuals.

Nothing in their recent interviews about it has led us to believe anything but this is true. Tanaka /sigh'ing at fansites is a nice kick to the ******** touch too. O.K. isn't that like Metallica saying "... ******* fans" before walking out on stage? Not a great look Tanaka! Fix it!

I might be dumb, but we started with an idea that surplus xp limits players that grind on one class, rewarding people that play less time etc, and now after all this new information is in we have the idea that surplus xp limits players that grind on one class, rewarding people that play less time etc.

^ If this isn't the case then I eagerly await the next FFXIV twitter.
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#139 Aug 25 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Yeah but everyone who lit their hair on fire is rating us down for suggesting they should have waited for real info before freaking out. I am almost ready to join Wint in a sabbatical of this site until people get a grip.


That's more or less, how I feel, but maybe in a slightly less critical (?) manner. If a person hears about this system, they are entitled to having a severely negative opinion. However, if they wait until the game releases and they have experience with the game, they are still entitled to their opinion, but that opinion is now far more educated. Granted at that point they would be out ~$90 with the CE and monthly payment. Still, if it's something you could afford, why not just wait and see?
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#140 Aug 25 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Kaelia88 wrote:
Quote:
Yeah but everyone who lit their hair on fire is rating us down for suggesting they should have waited for real info before freaking out. I am almost ready to join Wint in a sabbatical of this site until people get a grip.


That's more or less, how I feel, but maybe in a slightly less critical (?) manner. If a person hears about this system, they are entitled to having a severely negative opinion. However, if they wait until the game releases and they have experience with the game, they are still entitled to their opinion, but that opinion is now far more educated. Granted at that point they would be out ~$90 with the CE and monthly payment. Still, if it's something you could afford, why not just wait and see?


You don't need to experience castration to have an idea of whether or not you'd like to experience it. I think it's similar for some people and the surplus system.

Not me - I'm just sayin'
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#141 Aug 25 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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I can understand that to an extent. I just don't think people are actually bothering to consider what the limit means for them. They just see "8 hours" or "15 hours" (to go all the way down to 0 EXP) as a small, and therefore terrible, number. I thought that when I first read it too. But then I actually sat and thought about what it would mean in reality.

I plan to play on what I think most people would consider a fairly "hardcore" schedule (without being a full-on basement dweller who has no responsibilities): about 4 hours per day, 7 days a week. I'm a full-time student and I plan on managing school/homework/studying/family/exercise (1 hr/day, 7 days/week) along with my gaming. (My boyfriend is long-distance and we tend to have two-week intervals where we don't see each other, so that's where FFXIV comes in for us.) I still consider my gaming schedule fairly hardcore though, as I have a lot of free time. Anyway...

With 4 hours per day, I'm going to imagine a scenario where I want to level a single class for 2 hours each day (half of my gaming time for the whole week dedicated to leveling that ONE class). Technically, I STILL would not have hit 0 before the surplus system resets and I'm back at 100%. But when I factor in crafting, questing, guildleves, leveling of alternate classes, playing around with friends... I don't even know that I'd find the time for that 2 hours/day of leveling a single class. And that's only with "beginner" type activities. The farther in we get with more endgame, the less it's going to be an issue. It's also alleviated (at least in small part) by the fact that people are going to feel somewhat obligated to level other classes (for their abilities), similar to how we felt obligated to level our sub jobs in FFXI. I know it's not perfect, and I STILL think it should not exist, but all it took for me to go from "OMG, TERRIBLE!" to "Well, I can have fun with that..." was to actually think about my schedule. (But I'll give people the benefit of the doubt and say that if they went so far as to cancel their pre-orders then they've done enough in-depth thinking about it to justify it for themselves.)
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#142 Aug 25 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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This system is just insane in a game that requires a monthly payment.

#143 Aug 25 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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I'm of the opinion that critical features of the game's design need to be explained from the point its implemented, even if that's beta. Mind you I played FFXI since day 1 NA release, so I'm used to getting little to no information about anything FFXI related out of SE. Even many of the version update notes are known for being extremely vague.

And I'm (generally) ok with that. However, this is like not explaining battle system, UI settings, how changing your class works, MAJOR game design functions. I've had to play devil's advocate among my linkshell friends because I know that the whole situation was blown way out of proportion.

At the end of the day, its the game development teams fault for implementing the feature, for not explaining (or even hinting at it), and then not anticipating and negative reaction. Blaming the community is not the answer.
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#144 Aug 25 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
yeah I think I'm gonna cancel my CE preorder as well. Yes, I know how betas are. Trust me I've been in quite a few that were just complete abortions then got better as time went along but I will play this on PS3 next year and I'll just spend the CE cash on Halo Reach for xbox.

Just not feeling this game after playing in the betas for awhile. It's become more of an asswhipping than anything from all the drama to the beta itself. Plus my attitude just ruins it for everyone else in and out of the game so I'll step aside and let ya'll handle it.

I gave SE my beta input and did my job in a rational matter.. pretty much what has already been said 1000 times over. Let's hope they turn it into something decent or at least get on the right track over the next year. Jumping in the 2nd year actually wouldn't be all that bad.

After playing in ffxi since 2002 up till last March I still am in this ffxi mindset that doesn't apply to ffxiv and I need a little longer break.


I just wanted to say, I salute that you have the strength of your conviction to do this.
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#145 Aug 25 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:


Yeah but everyone who lit their hair on fire is rating us down for suggesting they should have waited for real info before freaking out. I am almost ready to join Wint in a sabbatical of this site until people get a grip.


See ya
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#146 Aug 25 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah but everyone who lit their hair on fire is rating us down for suggesting they should have waited for real info before freaking out. I am almost ready to join Wint in a sabbatical of this site until people get a grip.[/quote]

I think I'll join you guys. See ya 9/22/10
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#147 Aug 25 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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You notice yet again this was another interview with Famitsu done at Games-con this time. The "Rumors" did not start on the so called "Foreign" sites. Especially in the beginning all information was translated from Japanese game interviews. While there have been English interviews ZAM, Core, and Ezorapedia they are no where near as encompassing as the JP counterparts. In fact some pages I have translated in German were far more informative. If S.E. is guilty of anything its continuing this sense of JP vs English speakers. There has just not been enough of outreach in making equal distribution of game coverage for fans of all languages.

The Twitter and You Tube are definitely a great start. Most of this could probably have been smoothed over if they devs made a simple twitter post. I understand this is Beta. Time to test systems and make people focus on what devs consider problem areas. What annoys me more then anything is that they now say they want our feedback but then turn around and blast us because it doesn't fit the idea. I have a prediction. When open beta goes live it is going to be all out ****. If they think community out cry is bad now I predict **** on earth for there spin machine.

I support any system that gets people to fully explore any and all game content. The problem is sometimes you just got to answer the masses. Its like my three year old. He will set you on auto follow chanting why why why!! Pretty soon you wise up and explain things after the first why, not wait until hes kicking and screaming.

Thats just my opinion. :hops off soap box:

Quote:
Well, lets be fair guys, it's really hard to adequately describe any complex system in just 140 characters...

Quick someone email the man and tell him you can put weblinks to other articals on Twitter! Problem solved. hehe

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 7:03pm by Alynis
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#148 Aug 25 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rjain wrote:
I'm pretty annoyed that everybody's asking for an explanation honestly. Just to throw something into perspective, how much of FFXI had explanations tied to it? Did you guys play FFXI? I'm assuming most of you did. What is explained to you in that game?

The majority of the time everything in FFXI was figured out by the player. I personally think that was the fun of it. It's cool to have some mystery to something.

If everything is spelled out from the start, what fun is that? Where's the excitement? Whether it's good or bad, doesn't looking forward to finding out what something is or looking forward to playing and experiencing something make it that much better?

If Tanaka spelled out everything about this system and everything else in the game right off the bat I'd be pretty ****** off.

I personally feel that the player base is very spoiled and expects too many entitlements. I have lost more faith in the players than I have the development team.

That's fine if you don't agree.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 1:34am by Rjain


Surplus XP is not some exciting new game mechanic and there's nothing fun about being forced to play a certain way. Mystery is good, I like mystery, I like communities coming together and discovering things, I don't think wanting to know how the XP system works is asking too much, it is a basic and fundamental part of the game. Surplus XP is a crude way for the devs to enforce a specific play style.

How can Tanaka possibly be surprised that rumors are flying, the basics of all other systems were addressed, The existence of Surplus was never acknowledged and people were left to speculate.

This is the only system that leaves people foaming at the mouth, you're exaggerating by saying that we want to know it all, all we want is clarification on how our progression is being limited, or at least for SE to admit that surplus exists, which they finally have. It's obvious they were not too excited to release specifics about the system, wonder why that is...
#149 Aug 25 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Rjain wrote:
Quote:
Normally I would call this an overreaction, but after having read not one, but two threads about that "interview" stating that Fatigue will hit in an hour, that it will reduce you to 0 exp, that it will take two days to wear off, and worst, that it effects all characters on an account; I think this is pretty bloody well deserved. In fact, assuming that this is indeed a response to those baseless rumors, I applaud him on his quick response to them.


Exactly!


Like he had a choice...
#150 Aug 25 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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#151 Aug 25 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almost every single MMO beta experiments with this idea.

They always end up removing it because the players hate it.

I personally saw both UO and WoW try similar systems and they quickly removed it when the players busted out the pitchforks and burning torches.

You do not tell MMO junkies that their grinding shall be limited, even slightly. You just don't. It's something that they absolutely will not tolerate.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:08pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
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