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#1 Aug 25 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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The retainer system is utter, complete, 100% *********

It is so bad, it's actually hard to describe in proper terms.
You walk into a dark, choking, dimly-lit cavern-room-thing where 300 ZOMBIES are just standing around.
That is, actually you can only see about 20 of them at any given time (model loading issues).
You check each bazaar by opening the main menu (takes 1 second) -> check bazaar (takes 4 seconds) -> scroll through the bazaars list (takes at least 10 seconds for 10 items) to just see the frickin' prices (they aren't shown in the overview). And if, after an hour of mindless clicking you actually find what you want, make sure to write down the price. Because one of the other 299 Zombies might have the same items cheaper.

And I don't even want to talk about the hassle it is to set up your own retainer. ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! YES, I WANT TO SELL THIS!!!?!?! WHY DO I HAVE TO CONFIRM IT A FRICKIN' 4 TIMES!!! THE LAG! THE LAAAAG!

Yes, I had to make an extra post for this.
#2drkmod, Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 6:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's a beta.
#3 Aug 25 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's a b...ad idea.
#4 Aug 25 2010 at 6:32 AM Rating: Default
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yea I know it was going to be this bad
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#5 Aug 25 2010 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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yes it's beta, so this is the best time to complain about it. I'm just hoping SE come to ther senses befor release.
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#6 Aug 25 2010 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's a b...ad idea.

I agree. It's a disorganized and incomplete version of auction house with no search or view functions. I don't understand how this is supposed to be an improvement over the auction house concept, but I guess I'll have to wait and see until retail version comes out to make an appropriate assessment. As of now it's bad.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:15am by lsykora
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#7 Aug 25 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Default
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lsykora wrote:
Quote:
It's a b...ad idea.

I agree. It's a disorganized and incomplete version of auction house with no search or view functions. I don't understand how this is supposed to be an improvement over the auction house concept, but I guess I'll have to wait and see until retail version comes out to make an appropriate assessment. As of now it's bad.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 9:15am by lsykora

It isn't meant to replace the AH. It's meant to help us secure a decent economy before RMT can. They also said they may impliment an AH at a later date. I can see major issues with AH coding all ready though, seeing how every item has at least 3 versions.
However, the retainer system definitely needs an overhaul. Either with search functions, or easier browsing methods. Anybody that played FF XI has all ready seen this system (sort of) outside of Jeuno. Let's hope they fix the system and not replace it, because i for one will be happy if RMT doesn't get the chance to control our economy again.
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#8 Aug 25 2010 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quite honestly, I'd rather deal with RMT than a poorly planned goods trading system.
I can ignore RMT, they don't bother me that much to be honest aside from the eyesore of faceroll names. What I can't deal with is a horrible player trading system. Nobody in their right mind would want to check through dozens, or even hundreds of bazaars to find what they are looking for. Even if there was a giant neon arrow pointing down to the retainer with the item I wanted, I still wouldn't want to deal with that. Hundreds of NPCs standing around is creepy.
Make it like every other MMO with the auction house system, it's honestly a no-brainer.
It would be like trying to find webpages on the net without a decent search engine like Google.
#9 Aug 25 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
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Btw, here is the quote i was referring too.

Quote:
Regarding auctionhouses:

Regarding Final Fantasy XIV and the market battle system is something we would like to consider the equilevent to the auction house we had in Final Fantasy XI. Only that you'll also be able to fix your equipment and things like that. It is something we really want people to enjoy. Also after the release of the game we will see how it goes and for example find out what kind of search options players will want and need and improve the situation. We don't really want to introduce the auctionhouse from the beginning because that is going to determine the economy system. So we want to improve it slowly and adjust it accordingly.
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#10 Aug 25 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm also really unhappy with the retainer system, It's unwieldy, and It's made completely obsolete by being able to set up a personal bazaar and sell stuff as you walk around. This way, like in traditional MMOs, you can park your "store" in logical places for people to get what they want, mining gathers in the blacksmith/mining shop... ect. Or stand around in aetheryte camps to sell potions and repair items. hekc you can even put items in under "buying" and have people sell to you the stuff you want instead of an NPC.

There are buildings with AH like signs on them, lets hope these will be implemented soon! I also heard a rumor there would be a way to search retainers. This is badly needed.
#11 Aug 25 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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I agree that the retainer system is pretty bad at the moment. There is a search function but you have to have the item in possession to search for it. Defeats the purpose if you are looking for an upgrade on weapons or armor.
#12 Aug 25 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'm also really unhappy with the retainer system, It's unwieldy, and It's made completely obsolete by being able to set up a personal bazaar and sell stuff as you walk around. This way, like in traditional MMOs, you can park your "store" in logical places for people to get what they want, mining gathers in the blacksmith/mining shop... ect. Or stand around in aetheryte camps to sell potions and repair items. hekc you can even put items in under "buying" and have people sell to you the stuff you want instead of an NPC.

There are buildings with AH like signs on them, lets hope these will be implemented soon! I also heard a rumor there would be a way to search retainers. This is badly needed.


This is on the verge of making absolutely no sense.
#13 Aug 25 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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If a search function was added where you could quickly find items then a collection of retainers is effectively the same as an Auction House without the actual house portion. I don't see the difference.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 1:38pm by lsykora
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#14 Aug 25 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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That building you mention is most likely a courthouse (Judge's hammer). When you check it it says you can hear "screams of agony" or something. If it was Black friday, this description would fit both, but... ^.^/
#15 Aug 25 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
That building you mention is most likely a courthouse (Judge's hammer). When you check it it says you can hear "screams of agony" or something. If it was Black friday, this description would fit both, but... ^.^/


The employees are on strike, not like an American strike where the have signs and march and negotiate, but like an old school mafia type strike where they tie people up and torture them for fun until they get what they want then and there.
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#16 Aug 25 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Default
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Wait, there will be no AH???

Lord........

This remaind me Giran in L2...............

Hope they will reconsider that.......
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#17 Aug 25 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teneleven wrote:
Btw, here is the quote i was referring too.

Quote:
Regarding auctionhouses:

Regarding Final Fantasy XIV and the market battle system is something we would like to consider the equilevent to the auction house we had in Final Fantasy XI. Only that you'll also be able to fix your equipment and things like that. It is something we really want people to enjoy. Also after the release of the game we will see how it goes and for example find out what kind of search options players will want and need and improve the situation. We don't really want to introduce the auctionhouse from the beginning because that is going to determine the economy system. So we want to improve it slowly and adjust it accordingly.


Well, but that answer makes me even more concerned. They're going to wait until after release to determine what kind of search options players will want?! Give me any search option! It plain-ol' doesn't work right now!

Don't ask me to buy a broken game that you're intending to gradually fix. Smiley: mad
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#18 Aug 25 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Though I don't have Beta, what everyone describes reminds me of the market place in Everquest. When it first opened up, you had to search through everyone, and even then you never "saw" everyone as the place was so crowded it took forever to load. Eventually they put in a search feature where you could look up items and once you chose the one you wanted a "path" would pop up showing the way to the person who was selling the item you were looking for.

Not sure where this will end up, but wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty close to the final product.
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#19 Aug 25 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I, for one, will not stand around for an hour searching individual bazaars for 1 or 2 items I might want to buy.
People will start shouting in chat, and with hundreds (or more) of people shouting their wares to sell in chat, it'll be like wow's trade chat on steroids. This is a really bad idea.
The retainers are good, but they have their limits, an AH is necessary.
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#20 Aug 25 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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Most agree that the system right now is bad. I was looking for a shield the other day and after about 30 bazaars(which was already way too many) I just about lost it. Big improvements are needed, but if they pull it off I can see it working as well or better than the XI AH. Here's hoping their vision agrees with the potential I see in the system.

As for RMT, I don't know about anyone else but it disgusts me to google for FFXIV info and come up with sites who already have their pages set to sell XIV gil. I would love the in-game market to be ran by & decided by honest players rather than RMT. I'd even settle for an average to sub-par system if it meant a fair & balanced system that totally screwed RMT over. There's work to be done for the current system to even be considered mediocre so far though.
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#21 Aug 25 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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One of the biggest issues Beta had via Retainers was everyone went to the first ward. Ward 2 had maybe 20 retainers and 3-9 were *empty*. Shoppers and retainers both just piled into the same room until it was overwhelmed.

Why? Because a shopper's lazy, and isn't going to 9 **** rooms to find your guy. Probably half will take the first room even if there's even distribution just because it's well... first.

Now, add to this issue that nearly everyone and their mother is selling level 1 trash for rediculous rates because they want to afford the few good things that are out there (and you can't bloody find because of the 100 idiots selling rat tails for 100 gil each), and multiply it by level as you have more items in the game (level 10 stuff, level 20 stuff, etc), and this is going to get stupid, quick.

I'm hoping when they see the trending in open beta and some dev tries to test something in the market and cries they'll figure out this is not a great idea.
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#22 Aug 25 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was really really surprised the first time I went into the retainer bazaar area. It was like a cold, damp dungeon. Very bad.

Before I got in beta I pictured it like a bustling area in the open (although instanced) with a wide area to walk around, kinda like the main district of bastok except smaller and with only retainers and stands situated throughout.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 10:47pm by PinkMermaid
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#23 Aug 25 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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This thread made me realize I never found the market ward.

But guess I'm not really missing out, seeing how everybody described it. :D

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 11:38pm by uomaru

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 11:38pm by uomaru
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#24 Aug 25 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, in LL The market ward wasn't Hawker's Market, which was NPC ran, but you had to teleport to the wards from the Southern Islands exit.
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#25 Aug 26 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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I try to remain optimistic about everything FFXIV, as well as the Retainer system in FFXIV. In the spirit of countering RMT issues before they start, I'm very supportive. The way Retainers are set up, is very unwieldy at best. I expected an instanced area; but being crammed into a (series) of rooms, all separate from each other, really bogs down the experience. I was curious as to how priority would work between rented stalls, and free-standing bazaars. It really doesn't do much for me, since I still have to sift through all the drones standing around.

In a way, this kind of reminds me of my experience in Jade Dynasty, where a server was broken into several realms (one server, has up to 15 "separate" copies of the world). One realm was designated (but not restricted) to serve as the Trade Realm. Having the main starter city, litteraly flooded with everyone in Bazaar mode provided more lag than I ever experienced in Jeuno or Whitegate combined. Even though it was a pain to sift through endless bazaars, atleast you had the ability to add a "title" over your head to describe what you were selling/buying. Even though SE purports to implement a search feature to ease our shopping experience, I can see people just taking their wares out on the road, selling where they may be.
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#26 Aug 26 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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When I went to try to get into the Market Ward, I was told it was down for maintenance, so I never got to see it.

I'd be fine with the retainer system as a permanent replacement for the AH if they'd add a good search system to it.
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#27 Aug 26 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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I wont go as far as calling the "idea" bad. However it does need a bit of refining. If they could make it as simple as summon retainer, exchange items, set prices, end key.

The lag ofcourse didnt help. I had tons of items on mine but everytime i would set prices they wouldnt confirm so mine just stood there with no bazaar icon over head. It didnt matter cuz it was beta 3 but it needs be fixed for open or final release for certain.

All in all a good concept in theory but it needs to be streamlined. Also enough with the confirmation windows geez.


#28 Aug 26 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, I stumbled upon the Retainer room (which just reminded me of all the people in overnight bazaars outside of Lower Jeuno) and quickly stumbled my way out, because there was nothing that you really wanted to buy and you couldn't find it anyway. The only equipment I used in Phase 3 was my starting gear and whatever equips were dropped by mobs (found like 4 pairs of pants in one day). Oh, except the alembic and mortar I bought from the Rank 1 gear shop in LL.

EDIT: To add a little constructive criticism along with my whining, I also support the idea of having a search function across all active retainers. That way, you wouldn't have all the crowds of the AH, the retainer system wouldn't feel so empty, and SE could keep a little of their pride by modifying the retainer system instead of just banishing it outright.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 3:59pm by PLDXavier
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#29 Aug 26 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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PLDXavier, Defender of Justice wrote:
Yeah, I stumbled upon the Retainer room


There's more than just one room. Can you image having to go through 20+ rooms, one retainer at a time looking for something? I can't.
#30 Aug 26 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
Geffe the Meaningless wrote:
PLDXavier, Defender of Justice wrote:
Yeah, I stumbled upon the Retainer room


There's more than just one room.


What?!

Geffe the Meaningless wrote:
Can you image having to go through 20+ rooms, one retainer at a time looking for something? I can't.


No... I... that would be such a monumental waste of time! At least NPC vendors have a static array of goods for sale, so you know which one to go to for that. Yeah, there needs to be a search function, then. Either that, or people will be doing the overnight bazaar thing in the middle of towns just so people don't have to go to looking for retainers.
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#31 Aug 26 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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PLDXavier, Defender of Justice wrote:
Geffe the Meaningless wrote:
PLDXavier, Defender of Justice wrote:
Yeah, I stumbled upon the Retainer room


There's more than just one room.


What?!


Yep. When you get into the market ward, there is an option to teleport to more rooms where more retainers will be. I don't know exact number but has to be around 20. I'm sure someone knows the exact number of rooms.
#32 Aug 26 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
The only thing I truly don't get about retainers is... we already went through this in FFXI. Has any one ever tried to find a specific item in Rolanberry Fields? If you have, then you instantly know why retainers are a terrible way to handle the primary economy between players, and why they should never have been instituted without massive alterations from the way that bazaars work in FFXI.

S-E didn't seem to learn any of the important lessons about bazaars when they put in retainers, and it will be months at least until they're remotely useable, which is going to cripple the economy at the start of the game.

Don't get me wrong, retainers can work IF they make sweeping changes, such as putting in a reliable way to search for items that doesn't involve going from NPC to NPC, and streamlining the interface for both buying and selling. It's very discouraging though that for some reason S-E had to wait to find this out when any one who played FFXI could have told them before they were even implemented. In fact, I'm pretty sure that we at ZAM had this discussion numerous times on the forums.


Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:44pm by KarlHungis
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