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#1 Aug 25 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11964-surplus-and-you-komoto-speaks/

Please refer to this link for a more correct translation of the Surplus system.

There is also some confusion over the limit on Physical EXP and the limit and Class Skill EXP. Changing classes will allow you to continue gaining full Class EXP. Only the Physical Level progression is limited.

Thank you RedGalka for posting this originally.

Edit: Deleted [The other thread is based off of a 8 hour and 7 hour translation that is not accurate. The EXP goes up to a set level, and is not time based.] (This needs to be confirmed.)

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 2:40pm by RufuSwho
#2 Aug 25 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I don't see any of what you said listed in the thread you linked. Perhaps I didn't read far enough into it.

The thread you link says what the other had said:

8 hours of full xp , 7 hours of decreasing xp and it does not reset when you change weapons.
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#3 Aug 25 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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We’d like to thank all the beta testers out there for their hard work and support! We’re applying all those ideas you’ve sent us to make for the best possible Open Beta test and official release.

Now we’d like to take a moment to answer the many questions we’ve received about character balance in the current B3 phase.

First off, the main concept behind FFXIV is allowing those players with little time on their hands to play effectively, and game balance is based off of that. Furthermore, it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. Because of that, systems such as Guardian’s Favor (a bonus to Guildleves) have been implemented to make leveling in the short-term easier than leveling in the long-term.

To achieve this balance, the amount of possible skill/experience points earned after a certain period of time has a threshold. Think of it as real-life “fatigue” from working at improving your skills via battle *(aka. No one could train ad nauseam in the real world with no ill effects).

Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero.

This system is on a weekly timer. After a week has passed since you began skilling that particular weapon, the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.

Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.

However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.

That’s how the system stands as of right now.

Also, this system wasn’t implemented just in B3 but was set in motion from the very start of beta. Despite this, we have received many opinions regarding it in B3. There are a few reasons why:

-B3 allowed for longer sessions in single sittings.
-In order to promote party play, skill/experience points earned were greatly increased.
-The skill/experience earned from weak enemies was lowered, but had failed to pop up on initial bug reports (and was later fixed via maintenance).

According to the last bug report skill/experience able to be earned was above what had been planned, therefore people hit the limit much more quickly than hoped for. That is the biggest cause. Yet another problem was that we were unable to adjust guildleve experience and the experience-earned limit at the same time.

Our lack of explanation regarding all of this was a mistake, and we heartily apologize.

This all is still currently under development, and we have plans to make the limit more palatable in answer to all the tester feedback we received concerning this. In particular we would like to address the speed with which experience begins to drop off and are already looking into it.
Also, since experience points fatigue carries over despite changing weapons, we plan to make it not so harsh.

At the very least, we promise to not have people hitting these limits in a short period of time, such as during the start of B3.

We would also like to make an announcement regarding something else.

The decrease in earnings when gathering is based on your actions taken with that class and is unrelated to the aforementioned limits. This is also currently under review and is planned for adjustment in accordance with many testers’ opinions.

Surplus experience is currently not being used. However, we have received many comments suggesting some sort of reward be put into effect regarding it, and we think that’s a pretty interesting idea. We don’t want to get ahead of ourselves, though, and we’re currently investigating the possibilities.

Open Beta will not just see changes to the issues stated above but will also see adjustments made to encourage party play even more (such as an increase to skill points), which the team is currently hard at work on adjusting. We hope you’ll all test it out when the time comes.

Finally, we would like to apologize for the lateness of any developer comments due to my attendance of Gamecom this past week. In my absence much fuss was raised over speculation, old information and some mistranslations on overseas fansites *(what?! /panic. Though I wonder what that’s in reference to in particular). I hope to avoid this from happening again by delivering developer comments as promptly as possible. Thank you all for your understanding.

And thanks in advance for your hard work to come in Open Beta!

Final Fantasy XIV director
Nobuaki Komoto
#4 Aug 25 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen SE say that much about anything.
#5 Aug 25 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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If anything, this got me even more confused!
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#6 Aug 25 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nyu wrote:
it does not reset when you change weapons.


This is referring to the Physical Level.

As far as the time limit, you're right. He does say "the amount of possible skill/experience points earned after a certain period of time has a threshold."

And then "Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero."

I'll have to edit this until I can find the corresponding post that states that this was a estimate of how long it would take for someone to reach the set EXP limits.

Trying to help but seems I'm just adding to the confusion. *sigh* Thanks for pointing this out respectfully.
#7 Aug 25 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
If anything, this got me even more confused!


I thought I had it figured out but now I'm in the same boat again.

I hope they make an Official statement directly in English soon.
#8 Aug 25 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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This doesn't change the fact that they're forcing you to play other classes (which will provide more opportunities for ability mix and match as you gain level, a good thing imo), and doesn't change the fact the in effect, they are trying to strongarm people into playing less. I'm of the school of thought that people are responsible for their own actions and developers shouldn't be blamed (except in cases such as 18h Pandemonium Warden fight etc.).

I wonder if this carries over for DoH and DoL... an easy solution to this would be to switch to a crafting class you don't care about leveling every time you're not fighting just to preserve the amount of time you waste moving around from leve target to leve target etc.
#9 Aug 25 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm, I'll have to see how fast it really takes to hit surplus before I can really comment it. But currently it took me 2 days of playing multiple classes (pug to 10, bot to 14, ww to 7, archer to 2) for me to hit surplus on botany. This type of play style is something I can only maintain on the weekends when I have no homework, or when I'm off from school and still can't get a job.

A couple things need to be changed for me to not be ****** off. One, the exp decrease should never go down to 0%. If I want to stay on one class ******* let me stay on one class. Exp decrease should cap out at -25% exp max. Two, gained Surplus exp should go towards increasing exp gained on other jobs not at surplus. And three, The changes made to the gathering nerf that accumulates over time better be good ones. >:O
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#10 Aug 25 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, I don't think I've ever seen SE say that much about anything.


Has SE ever had to do this much damage control? Given Tanaka-San's response, I'm wondering just how on fire the Japanese boards got regarding this whole thing.

My whole issue at this point is not with how this is, but WHY this is.

Quote:
it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage.


In other words, just as "no child left behind" means that students are taught at the pace of the. . .slowest. . child in class, we are all going to be held back by the slowest players on our servers?

Ok, it's not a perfect analogy, but it gets my point across. If you want to reward "new, casual gamers" give them rest XP. Let there be a way to store up unused guildleaves. I just wanna bang my head on a wall and [politely] shout at SE. . "You don't build an epic game by alienating your most hardcore players".





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#11 Aug 25 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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First off, the main concept behind FFXIV is allowing those players with little time on their hands to play effectively, and game balance is based off of that. Furthermore, it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. Because of that, systems such as Guardian’s Favor (a bonus to Guildleves) have been implemented to make leveling in the short-term easier than leveling in the long-term.


This makes me uneasy, FFXI had some epic quests/stories that I never forgot even after playing so many other mmo's if XIV is based off of everything being done in little time, and those are excluded I probably wont stick around... mind you, I wont judge that until I see how it plays out but I am worried.

I also don't like how they say people who play more have an "unfair advantage" hows it unfair? Nothing is stopping everyone from hitting the level cap, which is essentially all this is getting in the way of. Someone has more time on their hands and can hit it faster doesn't mean those with less are being screwed/abused/treated poorly/disadvantaged. It's like they want to try make everyone hit the cap at the same time, which is pointless and after the cap is hit, meaningless and forgotten about.

Now I never hit surplus in Beta3 because I didn't hard grind much and I don't have the gaming time I used to, but I still don't see the point in restricting everyone else or how that benefits me.

Casual players gain nothing from this system, they just don't lose anything like the hardcores do. Guardian's favour system I do support though.


On a separate note I hope they do something about the leve restriction, I don't casual players want to log on then realize they have nothing to do but wander around solo grinding for exp with no direction. It feels like SE is trying to appeal to a group they have no idea how to appeal to.



Edited, Aug 25th 2010 2:55pm by Silverwyrm
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#12 Aug 25 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero.


For the first 8 hours playing you are able to get 100% exp after wich this will be reduced up to 0 on the seventh hour after that.

-First point that needs to be adressed is between EXP and Skill Points, this statment says EXP but only makes sense if it means SP. Also if this is completly dependant on time alone what happens if you are logged in for 8 hours and you don't even get into a battle? Will you still be at reduced gain SPs?

Quote:
This system is on a weekly timer. After a week has passed since you began skilling that particular weapon, the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.


If you do pass the 8 to 15 hours treshold and received reduced SPs then you will only be able to reset the situation 1 week after the first time you reveived 100% SP before the last time you got reduced SP.

-This is just incompreensible, if this system is a benefit to people that can't log in that much then this system should have a progressive reset for every minute/hour that your character is not logged in.

Quote:
Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.

However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.


This should mean Skill Points earned after that point (whether it's when you get less than 100% or just 0% I don't understand) is saved as surplus which is specific to each class so you might want to change classes to get full SP.

Now EXP (read for Phisical Level) are not specific to each class to the reduction in gained EXP will continue even if you change classes.

-Now this just drives me crazy. From this last statments it appears that any previous referance to experience was indeed a referance to EXP and Skill Points. So when you achice your fatigue (whether is 8 hours play or 8 hours fighting) you will receive reduced EXP and Skill Points both. Also, it appears the Skill Points or EXP you do not get because of it are saved as surplus but no mention of how to use them or get them back. I'm assuming since they are saved they can be used otherwise there would be no reason to save them.
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#13 Aug 25 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Default
Nyu wrote:
Sorry, I don't see any of what you said listed in the thread you linked. Perhaps I didn't read far enough into it.

The thread you link says what the other had said:

8 hours of full xp , 7 hours of decreasing xp and it does not reset when you change weapons.



>.> Do you know how to read?

Quote:
Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.



Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:15pm by Olorinus
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#14 Aug 25 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus, I usually agree on this issue with you but the problem is that the way I understand this last enterview you not only get reduced (class) Skill Points but also (Phisical Level) Experience.

I think this last enterview only made things worst in the complicated world of EXP Surplus.
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#15 Aug 25 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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1. Why try and call it "surplus exp"? Is it supposed to sound more positive than "fatigue" or "exp you earned but don't get to keep"? They seem to say something about giving a "reward" to players with lots of surplus exp. This was based on player feedback though and they had no intention of doing this from the beginning (and probably don't want to even now).

2. it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. What is so unfair about wanting to advance in the game faster than someone who doesn't have the time? Are the casuals going to be setting the pace in this MMO? It's really unheard of.

3. No one could train ad nauseam in the real world with no ill effects. Real-life or Fantasy. Pick one. I can understand them wanting to make it follow certain familiar real-life rules, but this is just a silly thing to say as an excuse. When you die in the real world, you don't get to come back either. Unless you're a Buddhist.

4. Once again, no official translation in any of the other languages they plan to release the game in. They depend on the fan-sites to (mis)translate and speculate. I know the developers are Japanese, but they have many well paid employees in their neighboring and overseas branches who should be actively translating to avoid misunderstandings. They should be prepared to breach the language barrier if they want to make the game available to other language markets.

5. Before someone says "it's only beta", I'd like to make a point on how many people have already pre-ordered the game. For the most part, I feel these people aren't just buying the game based on it's name or company. They expect to know what kind of game they are purchasing. That doesn't mean that every minute detail should be explained, but major game mechanics like this can be the deciding factor.
#16 Aug 25 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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RayneZ wrote:
1. Why try and call it "surplus exp"? Is it supposed to sound more positive than "fatigue" or "exp you earned but don't get to keep"? They seem to say something about giving a "reward" to players with lots of surplus exp. This was based on player feedback though and they had no intention of doing this from the beginning (and probably don't want to even now).

2. it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. What is so unfair about wanting to advance in the game faster than someone who doesn't have the time? Are the casuals going to be setting the pace in this MMO? It's really unheard of.

3. No one could train ad nauseam in the real world with no ill effects. Real-life or Fantasy. Pick one. I can understand them wanting to make it follow certain familiar real-life rules, but this is just a silly thing to say as an excuse. When you die in the real world, you don't get to come back either. Unless you're a Buddhist.

4. Once again, no official translation in any of the other languages they plan to release the game in. They depend on the fan-sites to (mis)translate and speculate. I know the developers are Japanese, but they have many well paid employees in their neighboring and overseas branches who should be actively translating to avoid misunderstandings. They should be prepared to breach the language barrier if they want to make the game available to other language markets.

5. Before someone says "it's only beta", I'd like to make a point on how many people have already pre-ordered the game. For the most part, I feel these people aren't just buying the game based on it's name or company. They expect to know what kind of game they are purchasing. That doesn't mean that every minute detail should be explained, but major game mechanics like this can be the deciding factor.


1: Honestly the word "Surplus" itself may be a mistranslation
2: I agree, it's not unfair for someone to advance further when they have more time on their hands than someone with less time. This doesn't improve anything related to "Fairness"
3: I can't throw fire from my hands in the real world without some ill effects either
4: Don't forget, it's the fansites mistranslating things that's caused so many horrible problems... yep, it's all the fansites' fault
5: I'm sure several of them ARE buying the game because it says Final Fantasy on the cover.

That all being said, it IS still in beta and Komoto-san's comments about the degree and speed of this system still being under development are encouraging in that they may at least be reconsidering their position after all the negative feedback (and now Kotaku's picked it up too, and is generating even MORE negative feedback from people who don't visit sites like Zam). We can only hope.
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#17 Aug 25 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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It's not that complicated really.

Let's say it takes 150k Physical experience points to reach that "cap"

once you reach 150k, experience gained from mobs will start to decrease over the NEXT 150k. So at 300k XP you're capped on your physical level until 7 days pass from the time you started earning that 300k XP. Doesn't matter what class you're on, that's it for 7 days.

I'm GUESSING class works the exact same way, only I'm thinking it'd have it's own level based cap numbers. [obviously it'd take less time as a Physical level 50 to hit cap on a class you just started from level one, VS a class that was already level 40ish]

Which means you could probably hit "hard cap" for your class, switch, and continue to receive physical XP until you max THAT out as well.


Their time figures are just an estimate of how long it would take someone to reach that experience points cap btw. They figure if the cap is 150k at such a level, that it'll take you about 8 hours to reach that point. After that it should take you about 7 hours worth of degraded XP until you hit the hard cap of 0 points per kill.

I'm guessing that means that it wouldn't be 150k + 150K = hard cap though, since you're getting reduced experience after the first 150k. Maybe the ratio is like 150k / 75k?






Edited, Aug 25th 2010 4:36pm by seneleron
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#18 Aug 25 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I am buying this game mearly because it's a Final Fantasy franchise.

I will still get the game whether it has positive or negative feedback from Beta.

I will reavaluate my subscription after the 1 month free trial.

Everyone is free to either do as me or just not buy the game and wait for further information after release. To cry about it in the meantime is useless.
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#19 Aug 25 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I am buying this game mearly because it's a Final Fantasy franchise.

I will still get the game whether it has positive or negative feedback from Beta.

I will reavaluate my subscription after the 1 month free trial.

Everyone is free to either do as me or just not buy the game and wait for further information after release. To cry about it in the meantime is useless.


You know what, this is exactly what a friend of mine told me today. I hate him now, and I hate you too.

Because no matter how badly I don't wanna listen, you're both right.
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#20 Aug 25 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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/pat on the back

:)
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#21 Aug 25 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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I believe this is the article that was mistranslated to begin with. It came from gamescon and has been mistranslated back and forth in the community so much that its completely off from the original message.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23080

Its funny, I believe I have read this article on 4 different FFXIV fan sites and they have different numbers and translations.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 4:42pm by DrWhowhatwhenwhereandhow
#22 Aug 25 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Afraid not, we actually moved on to

http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11964-surplus-and-you-komoto-speaks/

which actually goes into the mechanics of this, albeit not very clearly. Please see OP.
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#23 Aug 25 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Afraid not, we actually moved on to

http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11964-surplus-and-you-komoto-speaks/

which actually goes into the mechanics of this, albeit not very clearly. Please see OP.


Until I can see the actual interview in Japanese, I don't know what to think of this. I like how Elmer posted an actual twitter response from Tanaka so that we can compare the translation to the original. It looks legitimate, but the rumors that are currently flying around all say they are from legitimate sources.
#24 Aug 25 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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seneleron wrote:
Quote:
I am buying this game mearly because it's a Final Fantasy franchise.

I will still get the game whether it has positive or negative feedback from Beta.

I will reavaluate my subscription after the 1 month free trial.

Everyone is free to either do as me or just not buy the game and wait for further information after release. To cry about it in the meantime is useless.


You know what, this is exactly what a friend of mine told me today. I hate him now, and I hate you too.

Because no matter how badly I don't wanna listen, you're both right.


Why does everyone think if you're voicing your opinion, that you are "crying". Posting constructive feedback during Beta is entirely a good thing. I'd rather voice my concerns in the right way, and who knows, maybe what I suggest or lobby to get done happens. I'd rather give it a shot then sit on the sidelines doing nothing.

I want it to be a great game, I want to feel the immersion I got from FFXI, and right now many things don't point in that direction. What can I do about it? Get on here and start blowing my horn!

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#25 Aug 25 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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seneleron wrote:
Quote:
I am buying this game mearly because it's a Final Fantasy franchise.

I will still get the game whether it has positive or negative feedback from Beta.

I will reavaluate my subscription after the 1 month free trial.

Everyone is free to either do as me or just not buy the game and wait for further information after release. To cry about it in the meantime is useless.


You know what, this is exactly what a friend of mine told me today. I hate him now, and I hate you too.

Because no matter how badly I don't wanna listen, you're both right.


"Right"? How so?

Some people refuse to pass judgement until the free month is up - others refuse to pay $60 to see if they like it, and instead go be beta feedback, reviews, and word of mouth.

Neither approach is more valid than the other - different strokes for different folks and all that.
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