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Komoto's Official Explanation of SurplusFollow

#52 Aug 25 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Example -

If you XP 8 hours/wk on Conjurer, 8 hours/wk on Thaumaturge, 8 hours/wk on Harvester, and spent 8 hours doing leves, missions, crafting, exploring, buying/selling items, is this not enough time?


This is the sort of reason why I (even as a "hardcore" player like Mikhalia, intending about 28-35ish hours per week depending on how much I care to overdo it on weekends) don't feel affected by the system. On principle, I still think it's bad business to limit in that way and think it should be removed, even though I won't be affected whatsoever (even as a hardcore player, like I said). I think it would be boring and probably even gimped to stick to one class only, but it's not my place (or anyone else's) to determine whether or not a player can do that without EXP penalty.
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#53 Aug 25 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, just thought of another interesting implication - slowing down players' rates of skill ups and exp'ing will basically give them more time to develop content, as well as attempting to avoid a situation where end-game is reached quickly by the hardcore gamers who then dominate the servers...depending on how it's adjusted, I guess this couuld be a good or bad thing.
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#54 Aug 25 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oenos wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
25-35 hours a week)

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 11:18pm by Mikhalia


Example -

If you XP 8 hours/wk on Conjurer, 8 hours/wk on Thaumaturge, 8 hours/wk on Harvester, and spent 8 hours doing leves, missions, crafting, exploring, buying/selling items, is this not enough time?


It sounds like it will affect you BOTH on a per class AND a physical level basis. So can keep changing classes and keep ranking up but will get zero physical XP for it.

I still think that a system that needs this much explanation and re-explanation is inherently a bad system. No GOOD system needs this much explanation.
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#55 Aug 25 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Good point.

I think someone needs to write Tanaka an email that says "Please to explain."

That's what our Japanese clients write us when they need an explanation.
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#56 Aug 25 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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How did the JP players reacted to this?
It'd be interesting to see mixed opinions.
#57 Aug 25 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer
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#58 Aug 25 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Oenos wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
25-35 hours a week)

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 11:18pm by Mikhalia


Example -

If you XP 8 hours/wk on Conjurer, 8 hours/wk on Thaumaturge, 8 hours/wk on Harvester, and spent 8 hours doing leves, missions, crafting, exploring, buying/selling items, is this not enough time?


It sounds like it will affect you BOTH on a per class AND a physical level basis. So can keep changing classes and keep ranking up but will get zero physical XP for it.

I still think that a system that needs this much explanation and re-explanation is inherently a bad system. No GOOD system needs this much explanation.


Exactly.

It makes me think that SE doesn't just care about causal players as much as they are hiding the lack of end game content as other posters have alluded to.

If SE truly cared about casual players then a simple 'rested EXP' system would work wonders.


Instead of forcing the hardcore players to alternate jobs, the community would find the optimal group and class set ups eventually... but this whole surplus thing is starting to seem like a stalling tactic.
#59 Aug 25 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


I guess they have to do something about that kind of thing these days simply to avoid the negativity and potential lawsuits that can come. Still would be nice if they just came out and said it that way. Like I mentioned in the retainer thread though, if these new systems slightly inconvenience me while totally ******** RMT over then I'm all for it.
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#60 Aug 25 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.
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#61 Aug 25 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.


Yeah I'm pretty inclined to agree with the justifications hypothesized by Elmer.

But I would probably add to it the fact that PS3 release is scheduled much later than PC, so if anything, the Surplus system is also probably designed to avoid what happened when FFXI was not simultaneously released worldwide.

At any rate, it's too early to say much further because SE has flagged this system for major overhaul, so we don't know what final form it will take on release date.
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#62 Aug 25 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
I don't see the point of wanting to keep "casual" players on par with "hardcore" players. Why would you want to reward your players for playing less and punish them for playing more? Is this some sort of crazy ploy to allow people to still make strong characters while keeping the server load lighter and still getting the same monthly fee?


I think that's exactly what it is to be honest.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#63 Aug 25 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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In the future, I will do my best to make direct, official statements in a timely manner



Took em how many years to finally understand how bad press is created?

A lot of people say "SE knows what they are doing", but in reality, this is their first time dealing with the international crowd while developing for a game of theirs. I do sympathize with him though. He has a wonderful time at gamescon, goes back to his room, and then spends a couple days flying back home. When he gets there, he finds that **** hit the fan.... several days before...

Hopefully they'll keep a closer eye on the feedback and keep in touch. Ahwell, if President Bush can do it, so can he.
#64 Aug 25 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.


Agreed, wholeheartedly. It's not up to SE to tell people how long they can or can't play. It's not up to SE to police people.
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#65 Aug 25 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Default
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Sleepymagi wrote:
I think SE vision for this system is two-fold,

1. keep "casual" players on par with "hardcore" players, or help casual player keep up.

2. To promote/force players to try out the other class (especially the DoH/DoL) to balance the economy/game.

I think the vision 2 is the problem.


Another reason they might be doing this:

3. Prevent unforeseen exploits that allow players to gain massive amounts of experience points in a short amount of time. It seems to me that they don't want people to figure out ways to get really far ahead using an exploit (FFXI Astral Burn).

Anyway, I think people are really worrying about this too much. I expect that hardcore players will still have plenty to do in the game, even if they hit the max **8 hours worth** of exp (such as crafting, farming, unlocking teleports, doing quests, helping friends etc).
#66 Aug 25 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Designing an MMO to not be addictive is an almost guarantee that it's going to fail. These games live or die on their ability to hook players for years. Putting caltrops in your game to keep people from becoming addicted is basically the opposite of what you should do if you want the game to succeed.

Blizzard actually has a behavioral psychologist on their payroll to help make their game more addictive. They have turned their game into a virtual Skinner box and the players are the rats. Ever wonder why random drops are so prevalent in MMO's? It's because the random reward schedule is the most addictive form of positive reinforcement. While it might seem that having your players to make steady progress toward a goal would be a more effective means of keeping them playing this is actually not the case. Random drops are actually more effective at keeping players glued to your game.

If SE is thinking they can compete against WoW by making a game that is less addictive by design they are kidding themselves.




Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:37am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#67 Aug 25 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.


I agree with you elmer, i ain't going to comment if those are the right or wrong action but i agree thats what SE is considering and they ain't only focusing one aspect (balancing casual and hardcore's game time) like most ppl thought they are.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:41am by Sleepymagi

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:42am by Sleepymagi
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#68 Aug 25 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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I just noticed this part:

"Surplus points currently have no use.  However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system.  We want to take our time and thoroughly investigate this issue."

To me, that says "We -COULD- do something with these surplus points, but we don't WANT to because then that would make surplus XP something they would WANT, and we don't want that".

If anything, I think that's a pretty thinly veiled "Yeah, it's a penalty. We want it to be a penalty."

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 12:38am by Mikhalia
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#69 Aug 25 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.
I think the point Elmer make is sounding, and I agree with that, while the fact that SE should or should not take part on this is highly controversial, I support the implementation of surplus, I believe it will bring more good than bad.

Just my opinion.

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P.D. although the parental control option described for WOW sounds better than this.
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#70 Aug 25 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:

Designing an MMO to not be addictive is an almost guarantee that it's going to fail. These games live or die on their ability to hook players for years. Putting caltrops in your game to keep people from becoming addicted is basically the opposite of what you should do if you want the game to succeed.

Blizzard actually has a behavioral psychologist on their payroll to help make their game more addictive. They have turned their game into a virtual Skinner box and the players are the rats. Ever wonder why random drops are so prevalent in MMO's? It's because the random reward schedule is the most addictive form of positive reinforcement. While it might seem that having your players to make steady progress toward a goal would be a more effective means of keeping them playing this is actually not the case. Random drops are actually more effective at keeping players glued to your game.

If SE is thinking they can compete against WoW by making a game that is less addictive by design they are kidding themselves.




Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:37am by Lobivopis




I just wanted to say I love random drops.
#71 Aug 25 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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i like to comment on the hostility towards the points suggested by Elmer, Elmer is a nice person and seldom post his opinion so i think he deserve a little less anger on commenting his post.

Cause currently it feel like, most poster quoting his msg answer with a "If that the reason, then its BS, its none of my busniess" rather den a polite "If that the reason, i dun think its vaild". culturally i take the 1st example as an insult to the opinion.
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#72 Aug 25 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
I just wanted to say I love random drops.


Me too ! I really wish FFXIV had random drops with stat modifiers and stuff. It's so addictive and fun to find something "good". Creates a much more variable economy too :)
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#73 Aug 25 2010 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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His true nature revealed. The game is being released in less than a month and there's barely any coherent information on the game. Are they truly trying to sell this game on the name alone? That's very bold of SE.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:07am by lambon
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#74 Aug 25 2010 at 11:24 PM Rating: Default
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wonder if this surplus system will help to deter RMT. Isn't it important for them to be able to level grind very quickly to keep up their supply of characters?

Just a thought.


Yeah if they scare enough people off, and no one is playing the game they wont have to worry about RMT, it's brilliant!
#75 Aug 25 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont entirely like the idea, but i understand it.

My one change, would be to not make exp drop to 0%, 10%? sure but not 0%.

As for surplus points, sure, right now they are points in 'who's line is it anyway' but maybe they could be used like CQP or something, for crap gear or the instant warp scrolls or reraise scrolls. Or even to refill that teleport stuff everyone is upset about.
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#76 Aug 25 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well this story has started making it way around the internet and not just fan sites now. Most comments are against Surplus with the general feeling that people shouldn't micro managed on how they play. A few LOL's at the comparing real life fatigue to gaming, best was "These character's run for hundreds of miles a day without any problem but can't swing a sword for more than an hour a day without getting winded?!" SE is going to have a tough month ahead of them.
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#77 Aug 25 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.


You have a right to your opinion, but i have to disagree with something here.
Saying it isn't SE's job to try to avoid putting out an addictive product, or to balance lifestyle with playstyle, or w/e, is akin to saying it isn't a car manufacturers responsibility to make a safe automobile. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like Helmet laws. People believe that it's their perrogative to be safe or not, yet people die almost everyday in motorcycle accidents. Not trying to argue with you, or force my opinion on you ... just sayin.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:38am by Teneleven
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#78 Aug 25 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you so much for the translation, Elmer. While I'm not entirely sure about the system, I'll wait for game launch to decided. But it's certainly nice to know some actual news and not just gossip and wonderings... I'm not sure if wonderings is a word... oh well.
#79 Aug 25 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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The game is seriously beginning to feel more and more rushed to me. They've been working on FFXIV for how long now, 5 years or something? Why try to rush it out now with all of these issues plaguing the game and the community? One word can describe it and that word is Cataclysm. Anyone who denies they aren't trying to beat WoW's next expansion is fooling themselves. I feel that if they just gave the whole game another 6 months of testing that it would be better for all of us.

I was really on the fence as far as getting this once I was able to play the beta and I'm sorry to say that this surplus penalty (which is how I view it) is deciding for me. I don't feel it's anyone's business but mine how much or how hardcore I play. If I want to power through all 50 levels at launch in 4 days that should be my business. If there's no endgame waiting for me and I get bored, that's no one's fault but my own. As a consumer paying for a service, I don't appreciate being told how to use said service. I'm the type that likes to pick one job/class and play it to cap before I move on. That's just the way I like to play, I did it in FFXI, I did in WoW, I was going to do it in FFXIV...

In the end there are much better systems to award casual play, they don't need to punish the hardcore crowd.
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#80 Aug 25 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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Just to clarify, Surplus EXP effects you in party as well, or was it just a solo thing?
#81 Aug 25 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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It effects you all around, in a party, solo, on the toilet..
#82 Aug 25 2010 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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Teneleven wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.


You have a right to your opinion, but i have to disagree with something here.
Saying it isn't SE's job to try to avoid putting out an addictive product, or to balance lifestyle with playstyle, or w/e, is akin to saying it isn't a car manufacturers responsibility to make a safe automobile. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like Helmet laws. People believe that it's their perrogative to be safe or not, yet people die almost everyday in motorcycle accidents. Not trying to argue with you, or force my opinion on you ... just sayin.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:38am by Teneleven


To take this analogy further, your car does not shut off if you don't put your seatbelt on. (Watch, someone is going to post a link and say "Actually, this one car does")

It's one thing to say that the game's manufacturer should ENCOURAGE you to "be safe" but it's another to penalize EVERYONE just because a small percentage of people can't control themselves.

My car's speedometer goes up to 120. If I decide to go 120, I can't blame the manufacturer for my ticket and claim "They made me do it!". I'd get laughed out of court, and rightly so.

Manufacturers are not responsible for misuse of their products.

EDIT: Actually, this reminds me. Some people are pushing for MANDATORY steering wheel breathalyzers in ALL cars. You know, the ones that habitual drunk drivers are required by law to have. It's one thing to penalize people who break the law and harm others. It's another to inconvenience EVERYBODY because of a few people who are irresponsible.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:59am by Mikhalia
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#83 Aug 26 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My car's speedometer goes up to 120. If I decide to go 120, I can't blame the manufacturer for my ticket and claim "They made me do it!". I'd get laughed out of court, and rightly so.


If my car can't go 120mph, can I sue the manufacturer for mocking me? Sorry for off-topicness... again, not sure if that's a word. Well, pretty sure it's not. I need a dictionary.
#84 Aug 26 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.


You have a right to your opinion, but i have to disagree with something here.
Saying it isn't SE's job to try to avoid putting out an addictive product, or to balance lifestyle with playstyle, or w/e, is akin to saying it isn't a car manufacturers responsibility to make a safe automobile. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like Helmet laws. People believe that it's their perrogative to be safe or not, yet people die almost everyday in motorcycle accidents. Not trying to argue with you, or force my opinion on you ... just sayin.


Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To take this analogy further, your car does not shut off if you don't put your seatbelt on. (Watch, someone is going to post a link and say "Actually, this one car does")
I think there is one, but regardless... that made me lol. :)

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's one thing to say that the game's manufacturer should ENCOURAGE you to "be safe" but it's another to penalize EVERYONE just because a small percentage of people can't control themselves.
I agree with this, but i am not convinced anyone will actually be penalized. I think we should wait and see how it plays out before we actually consider it a penalty over maybe just a small inconvenience.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
My car's speedometer goes up to 120. If I decide to go 120, I can't blame the manufacturer for my ticket and claim "They made me do it!". I'd get laughed out of court, and rightly so.
Imagine how irresponsible it would be if your car could do 300 mph. Speed limits are there for everyones safety right?

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Manufacturers are not responsible for misuse of their products.

Tell that to manufacturers that have to recall products because people misuse them. *I know this one is a stretch, but children often swallow small toys that have to be recalled. I know its children, but swallowing is misuse, and manufacturers do end up being held accountable.

[quote=Mikhalia the Picky]EDIT: Actually, this reminds me. Some people are pushing for MANDATORY steering wheel breathalyzers in ALL cars. You know, the ones that habitual drunk drivers are required by law to have. It's one thing to penalize people who break the law and harm others. It's another to inconvenience EVERYBODY because of a few people who are irresponsible.

Some people knee-jerk, and think blanket laws are the solution. I don't agree, but that's just how it is.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not advocating the system, i just agree with a corporation protecting themselves against the trash of society that will sue over the dumbest things.
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#85 Aug 26 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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Teneleven wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.


You have a right to your opinion, but i have to disagree with something here.
Saying it isn't SE's job to try to avoid putting out an addictive product, or to balance lifestyle with playstyle, or w/e, is akin to saying it isn't a car manufacturers responsibility to make a safe automobile. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like Helmet laws. People believe that it's their perrogative to be safe or not, yet people die almost everyday in motorcycle accidents. Not trying to argue with you, or force my opinion on you ... just sayin.


Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To take this analogy further, your car does not shut off if you don't put your seatbelt on. (Watch, someone is going to post a link and say "Actually, this one car does")
I think there is one, but regardless... that made me lol. :)

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's one thing to say that the game's manufacturer should ENCOURAGE you to "be safe" but it's another to penalize EVERYONE just because a small percentage of people can't control themselves.
I agree with this, but i am not convinced anyone will actually be penalized. I think we should wait and see how it plays out before we actually consider it a penalty over maybe just a small inconvenience.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
My car's speedometer goes up to 120. If I decide to go 120, I can't blame the manufacturer for my ticket and claim "They made me do it!". I'd get laughed out of court, and rightly so.
Imagine how irresponsible it would be if your car could do 300 mph. Speed limits are there for everyones safety right?

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Manufacturers are not responsible for misuse of their products.

Tell that to manufacturers that have to recall products because people misuse them. *I know this one is a stretch, but children often swallow small toys that have to be recalled. I know its children, but swallowing is misuse, and manufacturers do end up being held accountable.

[quote=Mikhalia the Picky]EDIT: Actually, this reminds me. Some people are pushing for MANDATORY steering wheel breathalyzers in ALL cars. You know, the ones that habitual drunk drivers are required by law to have. It's one thing to penalize people who break the law and harm others. It's another to inconvenience EVERYBODY because of a few people who are irresponsible.

Some people knee-jerk, and think blanket laws are the solution. I don't agree, but that's just how it is.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not advocating the system, i just agree with a corporation protecting themselves against the trash of society that will sue over the dumbest things.


The solution should not be for companies to blanketly limit all of their customers, regardless of how many it does or does not affect, just because a small percentage may sue.

The solution should be for the judges to stop taking frivolous lawsuits seriously and tell these plantiffs to learn some self control and to get the **** out of their courtroom.
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#86 Aug 26 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Elmer wrote:
There's probably a lot of factors going into this. Balancing players with different lifestyles and play times, keeping RMT from churning out characters, bringing variety by having people level many classes, even some element of corporate responsibility to society. As the big MMO in Japan, FFXI was always targeted when articles or reports came out on MMO addiction. I'm sure SE would like to avoid this kind of attention and show they have made a game that does not encourage such behavior through design, rather than a simple written warning upon start-up.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:09am by Elmer


Point by point...

Balancing players with different lifestyles: Not their job
Keeping RMT from churning out characters: Unavoidable, remember that RMT use hacks and exploits, when they don't have to follow the rules of the game, adding more rules doesn't solve anything
Bringing Variety: They've done that, but I don't need it shoved down my throat forcefully
Corporate Responsibility: Not my problem. Seriously, this has been said many many times, I can manage my own time and my own life. I'm not going to neglect my school, my friends, my family, my health in order to play FFXIV and it isn't SE's job to decide whether I'm doing that or not. While I appreciate their position in Japanese media, Blizzard is under the same scrutiny here and their MMO is WAY bigger, they haven't seen any need to do this.. you know what they did? Install parental controls, to allow parents to manage the time of the one class of society that really ISN'T capable of managing themselves... small children.


You have a right to your opinion, but i have to disagree with something here.
Saying it isn't SE's job to try to avoid putting out an addictive product, or to balance lifestyle with playstyle, or w/e, is akin to saying it isn't a car manufacturers responsibility to make a safe automobile. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like Helmet laws. People believe that it's their perrogative to be safe or not, yet people die almost everyday in motorcycle accidents. Not trying to argue with you, or force my opinion on you ... just sayin.


Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To take this analogy further, your car does not shut off if you don't put your seatbelt on. (Watch, someone is going to post a link and say "Actually, this one car does")
I think there is one, but regardless... that made me lol. :)

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's one thing to say that the game's manufacturer should ENCOURAGE you to "be safe" but it's another to penalize EVERYONE just because a small percentage of people can't control themselves.
I agree with this, but i am not convinced anyone will actually be penalized. I think we should wait and see how it plays out before we actually consider it a penalty over maybe just a small inconvenience.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
My car's speedometer goes up to 120. If I decide to go 120, I can't blame the manufacturer for my ticket and claim "They made me do it!". I'd get laughed out of court, and rightly so.
Imagine how irresponsible it would be if your car could do 300 mph. Speed limits are there for everyones safety right?

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Manufacturers are not responsible for misuse of their products.

Tell that to manufacturers that have to recall products because people misuse them. *I know this one is a stretch, but children often swallow small toys that have to be recalled. I know its children, but swallowing is misuse, and manufacturers do end up being held accountable.

[quote=Mikhalia the Picky]EDIT: Actually, this reminds me. Some people are pushing for MANDATORY steering wheel breathalyzers in ALL cars. You know, the ones that habitual drunk drivers are required by law to have. It's one thing to penalize people who break the law and harm others. It's another to inconvenience EVERYBODY because of a few people who are irresponsible.

Some people knee-jerk, and think blanket laws are the solution. I don't agree, but that's just how it is.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not advocating the system, i just agree with a corporation protecting themselves against the trash of society that will sue over the dumbest things.


The solution should not be for companies to blanketly limit all of their customers, regardless of how many it does or does not affect, just because a small percentage may sue.

The solution should be for the judges to stop taking frivolous lawsuits seriously and tell these plantiffs to learn some self control and to get the @#%^ out of their courtroom.


A F%$^&n men! Now that we have come to terms, let's drink to a world where a judge would have some balls, and tell that biotch that she isn't getting a million dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself.
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#87 Aug 26 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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You know what I'll take the higher road and give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt. I obviously know it's retarded to judge something when it is in Beta due to the ability they have to just remove it entirely in the blink of an eye. Open Beta will pretty much be what will be shipping for retail minus all the small adjustments, formula changes.

So for Open Beta, I will keep an open mind.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 2:38am by Excenmille
#88 Aug 26 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Default
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Should be, should not be...
welcome to reality ^.^/
#89 Aug 26 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
I want to make sure I'm understanding this 0 XP thing correctly... Is it implying that repeatedly leveling even after hitting your XP cap via the Surplus system means it'll get to the point where you receive NO experience after awhile (Not even 1 point, it's a complete zilch.) until a week's time has passed or however long it is? In a different topic I was reading it was something like a "auto XP bonus" that everyone earns after a specified period has passed. As you continue to level it dwindles down until you get no bonus at all, only what the standard XP rate would be. If it were that case then I wouldn't really mind the surplus system. I really don't play enough that I'd probably be affected by it but if I eventually do pull an all-nighter on a weekend or a few days I'm off I would find it unfair that I can't gain any more XP period until the time frame flips over.
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#90 Aug 26 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
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Double post - didn't notice that you replied to me inside of quotes because I had skimmed over them.

Teneleven wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's one thing to say that the game's manufacturer should ENCOURAGE you to "be safe" but it's another to penalize EVERYONE just because a small percentage of people can't control themselves.
I agree with this, but i am not convinced anyone will actually be penalized. I think we should wait and see how it plays out before we actually consider it a penalty over maybe just a small inconvenience.


As far as I'm concerned, a penalty is an inconvenience.

Teneleven wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
My car's speedometer goes up to 120. If I decide to go 120, I can't blame the manufacturer for my ticket and claim "They made me do it!". I'd get laughed out of court, and rightly so.
Imagine how irresponsible it would be if your car could do 300 mph. Speed limits are there for everyones safety right?


Some cars do go that high, actually. Speed limits are there for safety, but it's up to me, the driver, to judiciously decide when to ignore them. I won't lie, I was doing 75 in a 55 earlier today. Also, 80 in a 65. If I get pulled over for that, it's -my- fault. Not my car's manufacturer's or the dealers... mine. I can't sue them for willfully ignoring posted warnings, and they should not put a hard cap of 65 MPH on the car.

And as an aside, I -have- gotten the thing up to 120 before. I was taking I-95 north from Baltimore to Philadelphia. My GPS said my arrival time was 12:05 and I wanted to get it down to 12:00. It became a personal challenge to myself to do so, and I took the car up to 115-120 for a 4 or 5 mile stretch to get it to go down.

Yes, I'm well aware that it was stupid and I could have gotten myself killed and that I was being irresponsible. Regardless, that was not the fault of anyone but myself.

Radar detectors are nice, too, but I digress.

Teneleven wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Manufacturers are not responsible for misuse of their products.

Tell that to manufacturers that have to recall products because people misuse them. *I know this one is a stretch, but children often swallow small toys that have to be recalled. I know its children, but swallowing is misuse, and manufacturers do end up being held accountable.


Between us, I think that's dumb. If parents don't watch their kids, they shouldn't be able to blame someone else. If your kid is still young enough that they think putting things in their mouths is a good idea, the parent needs to pay close attention to them and needs to be more careful about their toy selection. It's not like the toy is jumping into the child's mouth of its own volition.
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#91 Aug 26 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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Teneleven wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The solution should not be for companies to blanketly limit all of their customers, regardless of how many it does or does not affect, just because a small percentage may sue.

The solution should be for the judges to stop taking frivolous lawsuits seriously and tell these plantiffs to learn some self control and to get the @#%^ out of their courtroom.


A F%$^&n men! Now that we have come to terms, let's drink to a world where a judge would have some balls, and tell that biotch that she isn't getting a million dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself.


That judge should have laughed his *** off at her.

...and then spilled -his- coffee on her too.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
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#92 Aug 26 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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If you get more than 200 xp solo, for 8 hours ... it's already better than the FF XI curve. I know i'm a bit adamant about it, but i really think we should see how it goes before we get upset about it. It took me almost a year to reach 75 in FFXI with all the stuff i had to do. If i can reach max level (50 i think atm) in 6 months even with Surplus xp, then i will have no problems with the system.
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#93 Aug 26 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Manufacturers are not responsible for misuse of their products


It may not necessarily be the threat of lawsuits either. A company's reputation and goodwill can be significantly damaged if they come under a sustained PR attack. Hence, good corporate responsibility policies ensure that the likelihood (and the extent of the damage) is mitigated.

Furthermore, in many jurisdictions, the law imposes a duty on corporations to warn (and limit in some cases) the risk of damage to a consumer's wellbeing from consuming a product. A clear example of this would be tobacco packaging laws. So it is wrong to say as a general principle that corporations should simply let the consumer decide what is best for them (because in some circumstances, they really don't know what's best).

To be clear, I am not for one moment suggesting that you can fully justify the current Surplus system as some kind of insurance policy to defend against hypothetical media attacks.

But in other ways, I'm sure many people feel it is SE's job to rein in the RMT activity which was rampant in FFXI. Therefore, if this system will also mitigate and prevent that risk, I think it's fair to say that you shouldn't throw away the idea wholesale on the basis that you believe it impinges upon your personal freedoms and liberties.

For example, in the real world, we often accept our politicians introducing draconian laws which are designed to protect us from harm. This could be viewed as one case where you accept a curtail of your freedom in order to safeguard your wellbeing (although again, like Elmer foreshadowed, there are probably many competing reasons why such a system was designed).

As I have said before, we should all wait to see how this System will evolve during the leadup to release, and if it needs further adjustment during release, then we provide additional feedback. A modified form of this system could result in a very enjoyable environment for the majority of players - we don't know this yet.
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#94 Aug 26 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
Let's put it this way... Would you

A.) Have no Surplus system in place and have RMT run rampant.

or

B.) Have the Surplus system in place and see little to no RMT action.

While I wish it were that easy as long as it could curve RMT and wouldn't completely restrict hardcore players from leveling (Say you earned at least SOME EXP as long as it was more than 20% of your overall XP with the bonus, let's say the normal rate was 100% and you earned 200% before the system kicks in.) then I am all for the Surplus system.
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#95 Aug 26 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Unfortunately, we live in a world where people don't watch their kids. People don't do the responsible thing. People sue game companies because they are addicted, yet they could break away from the game long enough to get a lawyer.

I know that not all people are like this. Not all parents are bad parents. However, a lot of them are, and people like SE are forced to protect themselves. Let's face it, they aren't doing this for you lol. They don't put up warnings because they care about you. They don't even know you, but they are afraid that you will sue them if they aren't careful.
*Note that i don't actually mean you personally when i say "you" lol.
This is why they blanket law/procedure/surplus xp people. Until a miracle happens, it will stay like this.

I still like to think that this is more of an RMT measure than anything though.
Again, i'm not advocating it, i'm just trying to be reasonable about it.
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#96 Aug 26 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't played FFXI in a little over a year but... didn't they have a "task force" that was assigned to specifically finding and eliminating RMT from the game? If I recall, it was fairly effective. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply up the staff of the task force to branch out over to FFXIV, rather than fill the game with systems that punish their paying player-base in an effort to prevent RMT?
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#97 Aug 26 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Commander Aveline wrote:
I haven't played FFXI in a little over a year but... didn't they have a "task force" that was assigned to specifically finding and eliminating RMT from the game? If I recall, it was fairly effective. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply up the staff of the task force to branch out over to FFXIV, rather than fill the game with systems that punish their paying player-base in an effort to prevent RMT?


TBH, i like the aggressiveness of SE on RMT right now. I'm sure they will still have the STFU or w/e ever it was called (lol @ STFU), but attacking RMT with the very game mechanics is a strong move on their part. I can't wait to see how it plays out.
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#98 Aug 26 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
Commander Aveline wrote:
I haven't played FFXI in a little over a year but... didn't they have a "task force" that was assigned to specifically finding and eliminating RMT from the game? If I recall, it was fairly effective. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply up the staff of the task force to branch out over to FFXIV, rather than fill the game with systems that punish their paying player-base in an effort to prevent RMT?


Yea they did have such a task force and compared to Aion, the RMT issues in FFXI were far more bearable. However as we know by now SE's logical way of thinking doesn't seem to be what would make the most sense. So many features and changes made in FFXI over the last two years or so leave many confused or annoyed by their decisions. Nerf this, change that, remove this, add that... Add a feature to ring a bell and call it an "update" and think their playerbase will be excited they can now ring their bells like mall Santas.

Point being, SE does do some things right, and some changes they do are for the better. They just have a habit of often botching their own attempts or not doing what would logically make more sense in the long run.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 12:15am by SamusKnight
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#99 Aug 26 2010 at 1:45 AM Rating: Decent
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whats the rate after surplus is it 90 percent for say 8 more hours or more like 90 percent for a hour then 80?
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#100 Aug 26 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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Dik wrote:
For example, in the real world, we often accept our politicians introducing draconian laws which are designed to protect us from harm. This could be viewed as one case where you accept a curtail of your freedom in order to safeguard your wellbeing (although again, like Elmer foreshadowed, there are probably many competing reasons why such a system was designed).


Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

It should not be necessary for freedom of many to be limited to ensure the safety of few.

SamusKnight, Windurstian Roadblock wrote:
Let's put it this way... Would you

A.) Have no Surplus system in place and have RMT run rampant.

or

B.) Have the Surplus system in place and see little to no RMT action.

While I wish it were that easy as long as it could curve RMT and wouldn't completely restrict hardcore players from leveling (Say you earned at least SOME EXP as long as it was more than 20% of your overall XP with the bonus, let's say the normal rate was 100% and you earned 200% before the system kicks in.) then I am all for the Surplus system.


C) I'd rather SE deal with RMT when it arises, not punish hardcore players in an effort to limit RMT.

If anything else, this just means RMT would buy more accounts and just jump back and forth between their accounts. We still have RMT, it takes us longer to level up, and SE makes more money off of RMT subs -and- our subs. Who really wins here?

We lose, RMT still get the same result, and SE makes bank.
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#101 Aug 26 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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Teneleven wrote:
Unfortunately, we live in a world where people don't watch their kids. People don't do the responsible thing. People sue game companies because they are addicted, yet they could break away from the game long enough to get a lawyer.

I know that not all people are like this. Not all parents are bad parents. However, a lot of them are, and people like SE are forced to protect themselves. Let's face it, they aren't doing this for you lol. They don't put up warnings because they care about you. They don't even know you, but they are afraid that you will sue them if they aren't careful.
*Note that i don't actually mean you personally when i say "you" lol.
This is why they blanket law/procedure/surplus xp people. Until a miracle happens, it will stay like this.

I still like to think that this is more of an RMT measure than anything though.
Again, i'm not advocating it, i'm just trying to be reasonable about it.


How dare you say SE doesn't care about me!!!! Smiley: cry

But no, seriously... I'm well aware of the truth; that "corporate responsibility and ethics" are just fancy words meaning "Let's try not to get sued."
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