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Komoto's Official Explanation of SurplusFollow

#102 Aug 26 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Dik wrote:
For example, in the real world, we often accept our politicians introducing draconian laws which are designed to protect us from harm. This could be viewed as one case where you accept a curtail of your freedom in order to safeguard your wellbeing (although again, like Elmer foreshadowed, there are probably many competing reasons why such a system was designed).


Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

It should not be necessary for freedom of many to be limited to ensure the safety of few.

SamusKnight, Windurstian Roadblock wrote:
Let's put it this way... Would you

A.) Have no Surplus system in place and have RMT run rampant.

or

B.) Have the Surplus system in place and see little to no RMT action.

While I wish it were that easy as long as it could curve RMT and wouldn't completely restrict hardcore players from leveling (Say you earned at least SOME EXP as long as it was more than 20% of your overall XP with the bonus, let's say the normal rate was 100% and you earned 200% before the system kicks in.) then I am all for the Surplus system.


C) I'd rather SE deal with RMT when it arises, not punish hardcore players in an effort to limit RMT.

If anything else, this just means RMT would buy more accounts and just jump back and forth between their accounts. We still have RMT, it takes us longer to level up, and SE makes more money off of RMT subs -and- our subs. Who really wins here?

We lose, RMT still get the same result, and SE makes bank.
\

Proof or it didn't happen

Show me how this system is crippling me to level the classes I want to level and I'll join in...
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#103 Aug 26 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Commander Aveline wrote:
I haven't played FFXI in a little over a year but... didn't they have a "task force" that was assigned to specifically finding and eliminating RMT from the game? If I recall, it was fairly effective. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply up the staff of the task force to branch out over to FFXIV, rather than fill the game with systems that punish their paying player-base in an effort to prevent RMT?


They did, and RMT were reduced somewhat, but never really eliminated.

The fact is, RMT subscription fees are just as spendable as legit player subscription fees. And legit player subscription fees are just as spendable as gilbuyer subscription fees.

No game will ever truly eliminate RMT because at the end of the day, they're still paying customers, AND they're still keeping other customers (gil buyers) paying customers.

If SE really wanted to get rid of RMT, there are a number of other ways to do it that are far more effective.
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#104 Aug 26 2010 at 1:51 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Dik wrote:
For example, in the real world, we often accept our politicians introducing draconian laws which are designed to protect us from harm. This could be viewed as one case where you accept a curtail of your freedom in order to safeguard your wellbeing (although again, like Elmer foreshadowed, there are probably many competing reasons why such a system was designed).


Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

It should not be necessary for freedom of many to be limited to ensure the safety of few.

SamusKnight, Windurstian Roadblock wrote:
Let's put it this way... Would you

A.) Have no Surplus system in place and have RMT run rampant.

or

B.) Have the Surplus system in place and see little to no RMT action.

While I wish it were that easy as long as it could curve RMT and wouldn't completely restrict hardcore players from leveling (Say you earned at least SOME EXP as long as it was more than 20% of your overall XP with the bonus, let's say the normal rate was 100% and you earned 200% before the system kicks in.) then I am all for the Surplus system.


C) I'd rather SE deal with RMT when it arises, not punish hardcore players in an effort to limit RMT.

If anything else, this just means RMT would buy more accounts and just jump back and forth between their accounts. We still have RMT, it takes us longer to level up, and SE makes more money off of RMT subs -and- our subs. Who really wins here?

We lose, RMT still get the same result, and SE makes bank.
\

Proof or it didn't happen

Show me how this system is crippling me to level the classes I want to level and I'll join in...


I'm not sure who that was aimed at or what you mean exactly.
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#105 Aug 26 2010 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Dik wrote:
For example, in the real world, we often accept our politicians introducing draconian laws which are designed to protect us from harm. This could be viewed as one case where you accept a curtail of your freedom in order to safeguard your wellbeing (although again, like Elmer foreshadowed, there are probably many competing reasons why such a system was designed).


Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

It should not be necessary for freedom of many to be limited to ensure the safety of few.

SamusKnight, Windurstian Roadblock wrote:
Let's put it this way... Would you

A.) Have no Surplus system in place and have RMT run rampant.

or

B.) Have the Surplus system in place and see little to no RMT action.

While I wish it were that easy as long as it could curve RMT and wouldn't completely restrict hardcore players from leveling (Say you earned at least SOME EXP as long as it was more than 20% of your overall XP with the bonus, let's say the normal rate was 100% and you earned 200% before the system kicks in.) then I am all for the Surplus system.


C) I'd rather SE deal with RMT when it arises, not punish hardcore players in an effort to limit RMT.

If anything else, this just means RMT would buy more accounts and just jump back and forth between their accounts. We still have RMT, it takes us longer to level up, and SE makes more money off of RMT subs -and- our subs. Who really wins here?

We lose, RMT still get the same result, and SE makes bank.
\

Proof or it didn't happen

Show me how this system is crippling me to level the classes I want to level and I'll join in...


I'm not sure who that was aimed at or what you mean exactly.


It was aimed at anyone blindly hating the system without knowing how it works...you were in beta and didn't see surplus...so how did SE "punish" your experience... please provide proof...let someone step up and show me their zero experience and how it sucked...
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#106 Aug 26 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
It was aimed at anyone blindly hating the system without knowing how it works...you were in beta and didn't see surplus...so how did SE "punish" your experience... please provide proof...let someone step up and show me their zero experience and how it sucked...


I'll take this point by point.

Regarding zero experience: Source - http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23092 (Link is in the OP of this thread)

Quote:
Then, using that supposed amount, we made it so you can earn 8 hours worth of skill points and experience at 100% of this rate. The subsequent 7 hours' worth will gradually see one's attainable skill points and experience points fall to 0.


There's your proof that it is possible to get zero XP.

As for it sucking, I don't have to get castrated to imagine that would suck. If you'd like to provide a counterpoint as to why killing mobs and not getting any XP for it is a good thing, I'm all ears.

I'm not "blindly hating the system without knowing how it works", I'm saying that I dislike the system based on the description of it that SE has given us.

Fact: I dislike a system, any system, that limits anyone's XP gain, be it mine or someone else's.
Fact: I do not want a system where XP gains can not only be halved, but zeroed.

According to SE, this system does in fact limit XP gain and does in fact eventually reduce it to zero.

Quote:
The skill points you do not gain are instead saved as Surplus Points. Each class has its own amount of surplus points, so you can try out a new class if surplus points begin appearing in your log window.

However, each class does not have its own amount of experience, so playing a different class will not mitigate the declining experience point rate.


Also according to SE, switching classes can get around the class rank limits, but will not get you out of the physical level limits. According to SE, overall physical level XP will continue to decrease in spite of changing class.

The only reason I didn't encounter surplus in beta was because I didn't grind in beta; I just tried a little bit of everything, 1-2 hours a day. Once the game comes out, I do plan to grind. I plan to spend 25-35 hours a week in-game. Are you prepared to say, base on SE's description of the system in Elmer's OP and the link I have provided, that you do not feel my 25-35 hour play time will be at all affected by surplus XP in any way, shape, or form?
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#107 Aug 26 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


The only reason I didn't encounter surplus in beta was because I didn't grind in beta; I just tried a little bit of everything, 1-2 hours a day. Once the game comes out, I do plan to grind. I plan to spend 25-35 hours a week in-game. Are you prepared to say, base on SE's description of the system in Elmer's OP and the link I have provided, that you do not feel my 25-35 hour play time will be at all affected by surplus XP in any way, shape, or form?


Then you should let the people who did encounter surplus experience talk about it...you just proved that. I wasn't asking you if it was possible to get zero experience...I was asking for concrete evidence of someone reaching zero experience and how it happened.
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#108 Aug 26 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


The only reason I didn't encounter surplus in beta was because I didn't grind in beta; I just tried a little bit of everything, 1-2 hours a day. Once the game comes out, I do plan to grind. I plan to spend 25-35 hours a week in-game. Are you prepared to say, base on SE's description of the system in Elmer's OP and the link I have provided, that you do not feel my 25-35 hour play time will be at all affected by surplus XP in any way, shape, or form?


Then you should let the people who did encounter surplus experience talk about it...you just proved that. I wasn't asking you if it was possible to get zero experience...I was asking for concrete evidence of someone reaching zero experience and how it happened.


Honestly, I don't care about the specifics about how it happens. It -can- happen. It -shouldn't- happen. That's all I care about.
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#109 Aug 26 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Default
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Two points of concern to me are:

1- Who decides the average Skill Points/EXP gain? One of the things that actually made all the effort to fing a party worth it was to finally be able to find one with an above than average EXP gain and try to stick with it as long as possible.

Because of this limit people might as well take a relaxed aproach to their party performance and not be as good as other might expect them to be.

2- One of the things that probably need a good balance in FFXIV is the relation between class rank and Phisical level. With the system as it is, it will enable players to cap the Skill Points gained in one class and them move on to the next but the decrease on Phisical level EXP will still happen and probably will eventually be reached by the more hardcore players. So if a character is able to skill up their rank but not their phisical level won't that possibly unvalance the whole thing?
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#110 Aug 26 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
Two points of concern to me are:

1- Who decides the average Skill Points/EXP gain? One of the things that actually made all the effort to fing a party worth it was to finally be able to find one with an above than average EXP gain and try to stick with it as long as possible.

Because of this limit people might as well take a relaxed aproach to their party performance and not be as good as other might expect them to be.

2- One of the things that probably need a good balance in FFXIV is the relation between class rank and Phisical level. With the system as it is, it will enable players to cap the Skill Points gained in one class and them move on to the next but the decrease on Phisical level EXP will still happen and probably will eventually be reached by the more hardcore players. So if a character is able to skill up their rank but not their phisical level won't that possibly unvalance the whole thing?


Yeah, it could potentially result in people having weaker physical levels due to grinding past the point that they are getting 0 XP.
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#111 Aug 26 2010 at 3:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hit surplus in the beta, its an oppressive system even when you dont hit it. First i hit at start, this was somewhat due to the increased exp from leves.
Implication to this is, the better your exp is, or the more efficient you are at playing, the sooner you will see surplus. In fact i had a friend, i told him a good place to level and showed him teh basics of playing, he hit surplus at around level 14, he played for probably around 4 hours, this was also before beta3, and the enhanced exp.

So after i hit the cap i tried to power on, my goal was to hit 20 so i could acess more of the story (which has a level requirement) and have access to higher level leves, keep in mind this is beta 3 i have already experimented with multiple classes, and know how to level, and know what i want to play mostly. After the first 2-3 weeks, most people will fall into this category.

In order to hit level 20 at the rate i was playing, i had eventually got to a surplus of about 80%, lets say this was after i had exped for maybe 8 hours in a few days. (its not time based, so if you can get good exp, this will happen. For example if you do what they reccomend and share leves with people you will get more exp than otherwise, you will in fact hit the cap faster)

at this point i stopped aggressively leveling pugilist, because i hated the surplus and didnt want to bother with it. I focused on crafting, however, i still generally retained surplus maybe because in order to craft you need items, so playing the class you like to hunt items counts as experience, and not resting doesnt allow it to dissipate.

fact is surplus will effect the way you play once you hit it once, you will play with fear of surplus in mind. if you like one class surplus will make you pay for it. As you level higher it will be more of a problem. Sure i enjoyed dabbling in classes, and getting a couple skills here and there, but this system demands that you continue to level other classes, you like lnc? well your probably going to have to spend as much time or close to it, or even more leveling other classes if you play an average of 2 hours a day.
#112 Aug 26 2010 at 4:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Teneleven wrote:


You have a right to your opinion, but i have to disagree with something here.
Saying it isn't SE's job to try to avoid putting out an addictive product, or to balance lifestyle with playstyle, or w/e, is akin to saying it isn't a car manufacturers responsibility to make a safe automobile. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like Helmet laws. People believe that it's their perrogative to be safe or not, yet people die almost everyday in motorcycle accidents. Not trying to argue with you, or force my opinion on you ... just sayin.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:38am by Teneleven


Responsible or not if they try to do this Blizzard is going to slaughter them. They are going up against Cataclysm and Blizzard has no qualms with putting out a highly addictive product. They hired a freaking psychologist to help them make it addictive. Blizzard does not @#%^ around, they know they're selling electronic crack and they are apparently perfectly ok with that.

SE needs to fight fire with fire if they want to have any hope of competing with WoW.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 7:41am by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#113 Aug 26 2010 at 4:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Teneleven wrote:


You have a right to your opinion, but i have to disagree with something here.
Saying it isn't SE's job to try to avoid putting out an addictive product, or to balance lifestyle with playstyle, or w/e, is akin to saying it isn't a car manufacturers responsibility to make a safe automobile. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like Helmet laws. People believe that it's their perrogative to be safe or not, yet people die almost everyday in motorcycle accidents. Not trying to argue with you, or force my opinion on you ... just sayin.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:38am by Teneleven


Responsible or not if they try to do this Blizzard is going to slaughter them. They are going up against Cataclysm and Blizzard has no qualms with putting out a highly addictive product. They hired a freaking psychologist to help them make it addictive. Blizzard does not @#%^ around, they know they're selling electronic crack and they are apparently perfectly ok with that.

SE needs to fight fire with fire if they want to have any hope of competing with WoW.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 7:41am by Lobivopis


I gotta admit, he's right. If they "don't want to compete" with TOR and WoW and they release a system like this at retail, they wouldn't have to worry about competing with either, because as far as anyone who was on the fence is concerned, there's no competition.
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#114 Aug 26 2010 at 4:55 AM Rating: Good
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Teneleven wrote:
Imagine how irresponsible it would be if your car could do 300 mph. Speed limits are there for everyones safety right?


Someone needs to have a word with Bugatti then...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4

And yes it's street legal.


Also this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_F1


Also street legal.


And this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom

And while the Atom's top speed is "only" 150Mph, you are basically driving around in what amounts to a lawn chair with a 300HP engine that does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. And again, it's street legal.

EDIT: Top Gear review of the Atom




Edited, Aug 26th 2010 8:49am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#115 Aug 26 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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seneleron wrote:
Quote:
Actually, I'm fine with it. I'm not actively supporting it, but I don't see it affecting me so I could care less Smiley: grin


So, in 6 months, when more new "casual" gamers arrive, are they going to cut the xp before fatigue in half to make sure those of us who have been there since launch did not have an "unfair" advantage of staying ahead of their level?

Better yet, are they in a year going to demand that we sacrifice half our class levels to those who just joined so they're not at a severe "disadvantage"?

It troubles me that the ethical implications of corporations micromanaging their customer's paid playtime are so easily shrugged off by some people.

It's your opinion, and you have every right to it, but I can't help but think of how many situations people apply that "it doesn't affect me, so I couldn't care less".

My one fear is that one day it will, and by then there will be nobody left to stand with you.


I think you're blowing things out of proportion.

This is their game. They are designing it the way THEY (SE) want. If people don't play because of limitations they set, it's THEIR (SE's) problem. If this system troubles people so much, cancel your pre-order; speak with your wallet. Fact is, no matter how many people yell, I don't see very many who aren't going to play because of this.

Wait until launch, play the game, see how it works. They will be watching too, and will make adjustments as necessary. All of this hand-wringing is really unnecessary at this point. I have faith that they will handle this in the best manner possible. Call me naive Smiley: smile

Elmer had a good point in IRC last night. FFXIV is officially a Final Fantasy, there is an aspect of it people hate, which seems to be a prerequisite for this series.

"WTF, IX is too cartoony"
"WTF, X's Tidus is annoying"
"WTF, XI is online?"
"WTF, XII isn't online but plays like an online game?" (or in my case "WTF, Vaan is so annoying" Smiley: tongue)
"WTF, XIII is too linear"
"WTF, XIV has surplus xp"
Note: I do not endorse these opinions, I've loved every FF I've played

Glad to see XIV has entered the hallowed halls of Final Fantasy hatred Smiley: nod

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 6:14am by Wint
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#116 Aug 26 2010 at 5:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't believe that you are thinking like a developer, Mikhalia.

If you were, you would understand the reasons behind this system, and why *something* like this is necessary, no matter how much we say "it's bad, it's bad".
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#117 Aug 26 2010 at 5:49 AM Rating: Decent
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One thing we certainly can't complain about in FFXIV - the snippers look freaken awesome compared to the ones in FFXI (hope they get bigger models and more spectacular designs for more difficult zones)
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#118 Aug 26 2010 at 6:03 AM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Commander Aveline wrote:
I haven't played FFXI in a little over a year but... didn't they have a "task force" that was assigned to specifically finding and eliminating RMT from the game? If I recall, it was fairly effective. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply up the staff of the task force to branch out over to FFXIV, rather than fill the game with systems that punish their paying player-base in an effort to prevent RMT?


They did, and RMT were reduced somewhat, but never really eliminated.

The fact is, RMT subscription fees are just as spendable as legit player subscription fees. And legit player subscription fees are just as spendable as gilbuyer subscription fees.

No game will ever truly eliminate RMT because at the end of the day, they're still paying customers, AND they're still keeping other customers (gil buyers) paying customers.

If SE really wanted to get rid of RMT, there are a number of other ways to do it that are far more effective.


Considering no MMO has gotten rid of RMT outside of making cashshops...I highly doubt there's more effective ways outside of nixing your game's currency altogether.
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#119 Aug 26 2010 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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This is their game. They are designing it the way THEY (SE) want. If people don't play because of limitations they set, it's THEIR (SE's) problem. If this system troubles people so much, cancel your pre-order; speak with your wallet. Fact is, no matter how many people yell, I don't see very many who aren't going to play because of this.


You're absolutely right: I can vote with my wallet, and if the system is not largely modified/removed by a certain date I intend to. I am optimistic that, with the entire FFXIV community grabbing their torches and pitchforks, that SE will at some point hear the cries of reason. . . but at some point you have to stick with your principles, no matter how much you've been looking forward to a product release.

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#120 Aug 26 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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You're absolutely right: I can vote with my wallet, and if the system is not largely modified/removed by a certain date I intend to. I am optimistic that, with the entire FFXIV community grabbing their torches and pitchforks, that SE will at some point hear the cries of reason. . . but at some point you have to stick with your principles, no matter how much you've been looking forward to a product release.


Other MMO's force you to play one class per character, or specific classes for certain race....

But I don't see people grabbing their torches and pitchforks, no matter how retarded said policy is.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#121 Aug 26 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Other MMO's force you to play one class per character, or specific classes for certain race....

But I don't see people grabbing their torches and pitchforks, no matter how retarded said policy is.


I would imagine part of that is because "other" MMOs allow you to roll like 20 or 30 characters across all servers.

Race restricted classes are one thing. Forced to play a race is not the same thing as forced to quit playing the game for 3-5 days because continuing to do so is either completely pointless [physical XP] or very unpleasant [being forced to play classes I have no interest in simply for the sake of "playing"]

I'm sorry, I'm not going to pay $30/month on top of $160 out the door in CEs to have my game time micromanaged by Square Enix. Granted, they control the software, but I feel it is absolutely wrong to pay that kind of monthly fee to have the specific experience they "want" me to have forced upon me. Freedom of choice is one of the most basic fundamental human freedoms. Either I get to choose how I experience their content with my playtime, or I choose to take my money elsewhere.

You know, "other" MMOs have tried to impose systems like this as well. Where are they now? They were so despised by their respective player bases that they were removed.

[note: the double price there is for my wife's copy of the game as well. . she feels approximately the same way I do, even though with her current schedule the fatigue system wouldn't affect her in a negative way]

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 8:31am by seneleron
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#122 Aug 26 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally I play 30 to 40 hours per week and I don't expect this is going to effect me at all. Mainly due to the fact that I tend to be an alt-a-hollic, but thankfully FFXIV is going to reward me for that behavior since it's really looking like a high level single class character is going to be gimped without supporting skills and abilities from other classes.

Is this going to effect people? Yes, but I don't think it's going to badly (if at all) impact the vast majority of players. They might need to tweak it a bit, but I don't think it needs a lot of tweaking from what I've seen in Beta.

It will hit hardcore players who make the rush to endgame, but my thought is why not try and enjoy the journey rather than rush to max level in 2 weeks and then complain there is nothing to do? Personally I don't think that this is an anti-hardcore measure. I think this is an anti-RMT measure to try and counter botters and gold farmers from taking over the early economy. It goes in line with their explanation of not having an AH at launch. (And I'm more annoyed at the lack of AH and the retainer slums/markets than I am with Surplus XP.)

Do I think the system is perfect? Nope, but I think it's a lot better than all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that I'm seeing on the various forums...
#123 Aug 26 2010 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm still not sure where I stand on all this, as I really don't understand what it is exactly yet. I haven't really read up too much on the game at this point as I didn't want to torture myself with anticipation, I figured it was better to keep myself in the dark. My plan is to play the open beta to death and learn all I need to learn then, then make a plan for what I'll be doing come 9/22 (I have the CE pre-ordered) and play somewhere around 8-12 hours a day for those first 8 days (currently unemployed), then see where I go from there. While I didn't expect it to be possible anyway, a little part of me was going to try and get a class to the max level within the first week, but this makes it sound like that will be completely impossible.

As long as I'm able to switch classes then continue playing I think I will be able to manage this, but if this surplus system gets me to the point where I am sitting there with nothing that I can do in game because I have reached my limits for the week then SE is going to have at least one very unhappy customer. I suppose this explains why they are doing the discounted plans for FFXI if you have both games simultaneously, as people will probably be playing FFXI while they wait for their FFXIV character to recover. Guess I need to try and find my login info for FFXI and hope that I can still get my character back...
#124 Aug 26 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry, new thread, dead horse, etc... but here is the explanation from the JP beta site.


Elmer your translation is alot clearer den the FFXIVcore version, and we thanks you for taking time to do it. Your translation has always been accurate. Especially the part on 8hr worth of xp, thats quite important to note.

If i'm reading this correctly

Quote:
Even if you are hit with this limitation during a one-week period, its detrimental effects decrease if you do not level that particular class. You can even recover back to the full 100% rate of point acquisition, so you do not always have to wait the full week for the limitations to go away.


IMHO as someone who need to go to work, Playing only 2hr~3hr on a weekday den resting/working for the rest of the day will likely recover back to the full 100%, only weekend where its possible to play 15hrs in a row that could be a problem.

If this is the case its not as bad as the rumors made it... like SE have mention hardcore gamer ain't going to like this.


Yeah, this is something I can live with. I can still understand why some people would still be frustrated, but for me this is good news to which to wake up! Thanks, Elmer!
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#125 Aug 26 2010 at 6:59 AM Rating: Default
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I think that at this point it's safe to assume that SE will be very closely watching this situation. They will do what they can to mitigate the harm to average and above average players. After a few months of adjustments, I imagine the vast majority of players will be unaffected. Now, multiple people playing the same character in shifts is another story

As Junijos and a few others seem to have noticed, this will harm RMT, but I don't think people realize just how devastating a system like this can be for RMT. Not only will it stop them from churning out high level characters quicker than they can be deleted by SE, but it also cuts the incentive to buy gil. People buy gil for a lot of reasons, but mostly because they want to spend their playtime leveling, not farming. With no option of leveling straight through and buying all of your gear with RMT gil, the hardcore gil buyer will either farm, wait, or quit. No matter which option he or she chooses, it hurts the RMT market. At a certain point, this game becomes unprofitable for RMT, and they abandon or severely limit operations on it.

I'm fairly certain this is an RMT-killing system. What I'm interested in seeing is whether RMT truly is bad for a game. I've often thought that a lot of people complain about RMT, then go buy some gil. I wonder if they may lose interest in the game without the easy money offered by RMT. Just how many players are buying gil on the side?
#126 Aug 26 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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A little late to the lolsurplus party it seems but I'll throw my .02 into the ring as well...

Does anyone actually have a compelling argument FOR this system other than SE is trying to do the right thing from a moral standpoint? If you want to encourage people not to become addicted to a video game that's fine and all, but don't let the people with poor self control ruin it for everyone who wants to play the **** game. Throw a warning on the game so you can save yourself from a ridiculous lawsuit and be done with it. ****, they could even add a box you need to check saying you know the risks of playing every time you log in >.>

Is SE so scared of receiving criticism again about things in their game that take an ungodly amount of time to complete (AV and PW fiasco) that they will just limit everything right out of the gate? Sure the arguments of go level another class are fine and all, and you could in fact from a mathematical standpoint, level all classes without without surplus (I factored in sleep, food, and bathroom time. Don't actually call me out on the math not working if you play 24/7 >.>)

Realistically, very few are going to be interested in EVERY class in the game. I sure am not, and would like very much if I didn't have to get on said class just because it's the only one able to receive a decent amount of exp that week. While I probably wouldn't sit at my computer and play one class from 0-40 in one sitting, I do enjoy having the option.

As for surplus helping casuals or w/e SE was going for... How does Player X being level 50 effect Player Y in any way at all? ****, if Player X isn't a complete douche, he could actually help Player Y complete things he couldn't do alone because of being a lower level. Ok bad example, 9 times out of 10 that isn't going to happen unless they're friends, but still... >.>

Maybe this is just SE's way to generate some positive PR to be seen as a morally responsible company. I hope it's worth the possibly millions of dollars they will be missing out on from people seeing this as the final nail in the coffin.

Seriously though, if anyone has a legitimate GOOD reason for this system being in the game I'd love to hear it so I can stop hating it and enjoy the game when it comes out
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#127 Aug 26 2010 at 7:05 AM Rating: Default
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I would imagine part of that is because "other" MMOs allow you to roll like 20 or 30 characters across all servers.

Race restricted classes are one thing. Forced to play a race is not the same thing as forced to quit playing the game for 3-5 days because continuing to do so is either completely pointless [physical XP] or very unpleasant [being forced to play classes I have no interest in simply for the sake of "playing"]


Yes, other MMO's force you to roll more characters if you want to access all content in the game. sh*tty system is sh*tty.

You will level those other classes either way. For the simple purpose of making your "main" class stronger. Even if you are using a different weapon (how unpleasant), every skill and spell you get make your "main" class more versatile as well.

How unpleasant.

Quote:
Does anyone actually have a compelling argument FOR this system other than SE is trying to do the right thing from a moral standpoint?


Of course, but do you really think I would say it here? Where people who simply disagree with you no matter how good of a point you're making will sub-default you.

Just another reason why rating system is the dumbest invention ever. You are either sheep, or you are defaulted.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:07pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:08pm by Hyanmen
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#128 Aug 26 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Default
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"Even if you are hit with this limitation during a one-week period, its detrimental effects decrease if you do not level that particular class. You can even recover back to the full 100% rate of point acquisition, so you do not always have to wait the full week for the limitations to go away."

and

"However, each class does not have its own amount of experience, so playing a different class will not mitigate the declining experience point rate."


These two comments confuse me as they seem to counter each other. Odds are I'm misunderstanding them. I know regardless of the whole surplus system I will happily be playing ffxiv the day it comes out. Just wish I could fully understand what to expect.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 9:10am by RSquires
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#129 Aug 26 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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The reaction to this news just shows how many people perceive FFXIV (and ffxi for that matter) to be all about grinding out levels. I'm pretty sure SE considers skill and level advancement to be a significant aspect of the game, but most certianly not the only aspect of the game.

I just think back at FFXI and remember how such a small percentage of my play time was actually spent advancing my character. There were so many more important/fun things to do.... helping friends finish quests and missions, hleping people obtain various items or kill version NMs, bcnm's, limbus, salvage, dynamis, sky, sea, andall of the newer crap I don't even know about.

I'm sure SE is just throttling back the players who's only goal is to max out characters as fast as possible. The reason is that those are the players that start ******** first about how the game sucks because there is not end game content and create an unwarranted negative vibe about the game. They completely ignore all of the early and mid game content and whine because there aren't enough hard-core massive end-game alliance type battles incorporated into the game yet.

I'm not saying that I do or do not support the system, but I think people should realize they are throttling back only one aspect of the game in order to get people taking part in other aspects of the game.

#130 Aug 26 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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For me, it's all about the limitation decrease rate.

Example:

Monday: Work until 4 pm, play until 10-11 pm (6-7 hours, not counting dinner and stuff), go to sleep

Tuesday : You sleep (7-8 hours ; you reset, for example, half of the limitation rate), you work until 4 pm (Another 8 hours of limitation decreasing) [...]


In this example, by the time you come back to work the second day, you'd have your 100% exp from that system. You would have work, sleep, eat and do everything a normal person would do and still keep that exp limitation off.

I know I am meaby very optimistic with the rate, but even so, I don't think it's being a real issue for people having a full time job or full time school/College/University like me. Those who would wanna spent all their day in front of a playing screen are penalized, not the 90% other people doing something else of their lives.

My two cents.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 9:30am by MisterRandy
#131 Aug 26 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Default
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Mithsavvy wrote:
The reaction to this news just shows how many people perceive FFXIV (and ffxi for that matter) to be all about grinding out levels. I'm pretty sure SE considers skill and level advancement to be a significant aspect of the game, but most certianly not the only aspect of the game.

I just think back at FFXI and remember how such a small percentage of my play time was actually spent advancing my character. There were so many more important/fun things to do.... helping friends finish quests and missions, hleping people obtain various items or kill version NMs, bcnm's, limbus, salvage, dynamis, sky, sea, andall of the newer crap I don't even know about.

I'm sure SE is just throttling back the players who's only goal is to max out characters as fast as possible. The reason is that those are the players that start ******** first about how the game sucks because there is not end game content and create an unwarranted negative vibe about the game. They completely ignore all of the early and mid game content and whine because there aren't enough hard-core massive end-game alliance type battles incorporated into the game yet.

I'm not saying that I do or do not support the system, but I think people should realize they are throttling back only one aspect of the game in order to get people taking part in other aspects of the game.




Well said ^.^
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#132 Aug 26 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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, yet they could break away from the game long enough to get a lawyer.


^ he met the lawyer in game...
#133 Aug 26 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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You can sit there and lecture me about how you feel it's "not that bad" all you want. I'm a grown man with a family, a mortgage, a career, and all the bills that go along with the territory. I have unpleasant choices made for me all the time by my boss, co-workers, bill collectors, MY WIFE [still love her]. One of the few things I still have complete control over is my leisure time, and I'll be D*MNED if I'm going to give that up to some game developer over in Japan that feels "it's not fair" for me to use the time I *DO* have as I see fit.

Seriously, it's beyond arrogant. I play games to *GET AWAY* from this kind of SH**.






Edited, Aug 26th 2010 9:55am by seneleron
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#134 Aug 26 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not saying that I do or do not support the system, but I think people should realize they are throttling back only one aspect of the game in order to get people taking part in other aspects of the game.


The only problem I see here is that I may be inevitably be force to partake in aspects of the game I have no interest in simply because they decided to put this roadblock of sorts in the game. Not that I'm a hardcore gamer mind you, but I don't want to play "every" job or do X Y Z while waiting for my limit to be reset. I sincerely hope they find a better solution than what appears to be on the horizon.
#135 Aug 26 2010 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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One of the few things I still have complete control over is my leisure time, and I'll be D*MNED if I'm going to give that up to some game developer over in Japan that feels "it's not fair" for me to use the time I *DO* have as I see fit.

Seriously, it's beyond arrogant.


Make sure to say that when you can't change class in any other MMO, nor do half the game's content because you are on the "wrong side", can't play Mage Dwarf because "The company says so", and when a game and it's developers makes you follow a set path instead of being able to roam the world as you see fit.

Arrogance, everywhere!

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:56pm by Hyanmen
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#136 Aug 26 2010 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just wanted to make on the "this is going to stop RMT". If anything this is going to make the problem much worse with RMT. RMT isn't just some random guy in a basement playing alot. It's a 24/7 company that rotates people by shifts. So while your focusing on level a job 1 hour a day they are leveling all their classes with each shift change. I'll throw some numbers out because everyone likes numbers.

1 week = 168 hours
168 hour divide by 8 hour a class = 21 classes leveled a week

Yes boys and girls that means not only will RMT level all the combat classes but also all the crafting too. In a span of a few month they can control the entire economy without any resistance simple because we are stuck trying to leveling our classes very slowly.

This is going to back fire in SE face. I'll end it on a quote "The road to **** is paved with good intentions."
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#137 Aug 26 2010 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
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Make sure to say that when you can't change class in any other MMO, nor do half the game's content because you are on the "wrong side", can't play Mage Dwarf because "The company says so", and when a game and it's developers makes you follow a set path instead of being able to roam the world as you see fit.


Yea, but Blizzard doesn't say "okay, you can roll a dwarf mage, but you won't get any experience for it"

Seriously tho, if leveling other toons on WoW is your problem, I can see why you'd support a broken system like fatigue. I mean, a braindead CHIMP can solo to 80 in wow in about 3 weeks, sheesh. Should Bliz reinstate a system where you can only get 750k XP a week to drag the game out tho? How about limiting people to one piece of heroic gear per day, regardless of how many heroics you run? That'd be a SUPER way to keep people from hitting caps too quick.

Oooo, even better, how about one raid per MONTH. . and I don't mean one raid per endgame dungeon per month, just ONE. If you do ICC, forget about Ruby sanctum this month. . and put that gear restriction into those raids, too. . that'll drag it out.

If you did that, you'd end up with the same 4 groups of people that are currently populating FFXIV boards across the world:

1) F this, it's stupid and frustrating, let's find something else to play
2) I don't care HOW bad it is, I'm a fanboy and I'll play anything they put out until the end of time
3) I'm still level 5 and don't get to play much, this doesn't affect me
4) I like the game, but I'm going to stop playing it because I feel these changes are ignorant. When they remove
these changes, I will probably come back.

As Wint said, it's SE's game. They can do whatever they want with it. I find their fatigue system to be personally offensive and insulting. I'm not trying to make anyone else feel the same way, or change your mind about the game. If you like what they're offering, or feel it gives you an advantage against "people with unfair advantages" [because it's unfair that people who put in the time and work get something back for it], then you go right ahead.





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#138 Aug 26 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, I think people are still missing the point of what they are doing. They are not saying that you have 8 hours a week of solid play per character. They are saying you have a maximum experience you can get in an 8 hour window. While this window is fixed, it's duration is not, and therefore is scalable to playing habits. I would go out on a limb and say that 99% of American players (with the exception of my nephew, and a few others... from the sound of it on this forum) that will *NEVER* hit this.

As stated in the response to the American lead panic, it was stated quite plainly that the reason that this was even seen was that the amount of experience gained in 8 hours was attainable MUCH earlier.

So, yes, casual players can run into this just as much as die hard players, but it sounds like this is targeting is more specifically people who find exploits like the Smn burn party, or any burn party for that matter. It prevents people from getting more experience in that window.

So, you play 8 hours and are getting an obscene amount of experience, and you notice you are getting surplus exp. You stop playing, and start up the next day. Your surplus drops by it's prescribed amount, and you now have another 8 hours to go at the same pace until you take a new penalty.

Yes this will force some people (the 1% that insist on optimized party and dps, ussually friends who have formed ultimate parties). And if you see you are getting a surplus, why would you intentionally continue and force yourself down to 10% exp gain...

Anyways, yes, this will affect people in this forum. And yes, I am happy with it. One of the reasons I left XI was because of my friends doing SMN burn parties. I had a lvl 20 smn and refused to take advantage of something so horribly broken that someone could get 60k exp in 8 hours. I mean seriously... That is just wrong.

Based on the description, it will not be possible for pick-up parties from hitting this. And it will be unlikely that precision parties will hit it (which is my guess what the changes will be, to put it at the near end of exp exploits).

But, yeah, I agree with the SE crew, people don't seem to understand it, and are angry about something that people were angry didn't exist (or something along that lines).

While I wouldn't call this a feature of the game, as a developer can see how and why they would do something like this. It is not designed to limit your time at the game, it is intended to prevent you from destroying the system, or off-setting the balance. simliar to the change in XI that had everyone up in arms for sending 1 million + gil through the mog houses. While there were very *FEW* instances of people legitimately doing this, most people were using it as a means of buying gil.

And as someone quoted Ben Franklin earlier, keep in mind, the game is their liberty, not ours. They are the ones who have to choose, not us. When you purchase a product, you are the consumer, they are the provider. As such, it is a dictatorial environment. This is the reason we have monopoly laws. Given the dictatorial nature of business, without laws preventing businesses from attaining ultimate power, your influence on them would be lost. However, in this case, you have influence. However, without rational response and thought behind your efforts, and an understanding of what is being conveyed, your response is lost in a sea of confusion and anger.

This functionality can only offend people for 1 of 3 reasons: 1) You are looking for a way to exploit experience, and feel jaded that they would dare prevent you; 2) You have no faith in others ability to judge the line between die-hard and exploitative; 3) You are an idiot.

With that being said, here are the references for my understanding of the functionality (since somehow I am apparently understanding this differently than others).

You can gain 8 hours worth of exp, before a gradual declination:
Then, using that supposed amount, we made it so you can earn 8 hours worth of skill points and experience at 100% of this rate. The subsequent 7 hours' worth will gradually see one's attainable skill points and experience points fall to 0.

It resets fully after 1 week:
The limitation on the amount of points you can attain is set on a weekly timer. Once it passes a week since you first began leveling a particular skill, the limitation resets to zero. After it resets, it will come into effect again once you begin work on that skill once more.

The amount is based on a linear 8 hour window (aka ~8 hours later you can start back up with a reduced surplus for 8 more hours, assuming the delineation is in fact 8 hours... which they actually do not identify)
Even if you are hit with this limitation during a one-week period, its detrimental effects decrease if you do not level that particular class. You can even recover back to the full 100% rate of point acquisition, so you do not always have to wait the full week for the limitations to go away.

The concern is exploited exp:
Surplus points currently have no use. However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system. We want to take our time and thoroughly investigate this issue.
#139 Aug 26 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Default
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Yea, but Blizzard doesn't say "okay, you can roll a dwarf mage, but you won't get any experience for it"


Because that's exactly what's happening here, right? No, just no.

Quote:
hould Bliz reinstate a system where you can only get 750k XP a week to drag the game out tho?


Blizzard doesn't have to.

They don't give a **** about hardcore, because they don't need them to be successful. Do you think SE has the same kind of luxury? Do you think any other developer (aside from maybe Bioware) has such luxury?

Especially during the initial release, when the amount of content is not exactly overwhelming?


Limitations are necessary, because otherwise players would run out of stuff to do, and quit. XI had this, XIV will have this, but if you can't cope with the realities, go play the only MMO that can afford to not limit their game or Korean grinders instead (because yes, that's the second option- which I don't personally want to see here).
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#140 Aug 26 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Default
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Yes boys and girls that means not only will RMT level all the combat classes but also all the crafting too. In a span of a few month they can control the entire economy without any resistance simple because we are stuck trying to leveling our classes very slowly.


How does any other game stop what you are describing from happening? No single class of theirs can level very long, so they will have to split their time, which doesn't work with their business model. I can reach the same highest level as they can while playing 1/10 of the time. I pick 1 DoH, 1 DoL, 1 DoW, and my highest level classes will equal their highest level classes, and I'm not playing in shifts with anybody.

Also, since there's no point in a continual grind, most players will be gathering or crafting once surplus is reached. Most players will have their own revenue streams and can level a single crafting or gathering class at the same pace an RMT character can. Therefore, the perceived value of 1 million gil goes down, the actual cost to an RMT shop to gain 1 million gil will go up (time to get a character to a profitable level), and the profitability of RMT will suffer.
#141 Aug 26 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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All I can say is they better give me a **** ton of storage for all the materials I'm gonna get harvesting. I can fill 8 hours up quickly on 1class you better believe. Since I'm now planning on playing con and thau I will have lots of extra time I guess to mine log and fish.
#142 Aug 26 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, I found this on ffxivcore on the main page. And I'm slightly confused about it:

"Even if you reach the XP limit mid-week, your fatigue will recover in the time not spent skilling up. The one week period is simply a guarantee that it WILL recover then no matter what."

So, I play the game for 6 hours on monday afternoon and my surplus hits 50%. I grab some sleep for 6 hours, get up and go to work for 8 hours. Does that mean during those 14 hours my fatigue level will go go down to say 10% or something? Just trying to figure this out. Thanks for any help.
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#143 Aug 26 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Blizzard doesn't have to.

They don't give a sh*t about hardcore, because they don't need them to be successful. Do you think SE has the same kind of luxury? Do you think any other developer (aside from maybe Bioware) has such luxury?


Down this path we're starting to get off topic a bit. Since Activision acquired Blizzard, the whole system has gradually fallen to sh**, and by cataclysm even my 4 year old will be complaining "Daddy, too easy".

Asking if SE has the same kind of luxury is, in my mind at least, apples and oranges. SE isn't OUT to become bigger than WoW. They're trying [I assume] to create a very high quality product for their target audience: Japanese Final Fantasy fans. I haven't been away from FFXI for so long that I've forgotten how SE is regarding it's NA clientelle.

I do think they have the luxury of finding ways to reward casual gamers without punishing their more hardcore fan base. It's obvious to me at this point that they are *NOT* going to abandon fatigue in the short term, but depending on how it's adjusted by open beta I may end up just dealing with it, now that we know that the fatigue portion resets over time [if offline time counts towards this it'd do a lot to pacify me, especially if 8 hours off took you from -50% fatigue up to 0% [the point where you start losing XP] THIS I can overcome. It makes me wonder what the relation is between physical and class levels are, and what the effects of having a class level higher than your physical level might be though.

We'll see how it's adjusted at open beta though, and go from there. Seriously though, if 15 hours of game time drops you to -50% experience, which would end up at 0% [back to the beginning of the fatigue line] after 8 hours offline, I'll stop seriously complaining about it. Being able to get to [and stay at] 0% and being completely FORCED out of what I want to do was my huge complaint here.



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#144 Aug 26 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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rubypenguin wrote:
All I can say is they better give me a sh*t ton of storage for all the materials I'm gonna get harvesting. I can fill 8 hours up quickly on 1class you better believe. Since I'm now planning on playing con and thau I will have lots of extra time I guess to mine log and fish.


You get 80 inventory slots (which is more than most MMO's default storage, especially with a weight system) and your retainer also has 80 slots.
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#145 Aug 26 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do think they have the luxury of finding ways to reward casual gamers without punishing their more hardcore fan base. It's obvious to me at this point that they are *NOT* going to abandon fatigue in the short term, but depending on how it's adjusted by open beta I may end up just dealing with it, now that we know that the fatigue portion resets over time [if offline time counts towards this it'd do a lot to pacify me, especially if 8 hours off took you from -50% fatigue up to 0% [the point where you start losing XP] THIS I can overcome. It makes me wonder what the relation is between physical and class levels are, and what the effects of having a class level higher than your physical level might be though.

We'll see how it's adjusted at open beta though, and go from there. Seriously though, if 15 hours of game time drops you to -50% experience, which would end up at 0% [back to the beginning of the fatigue line] after 8 hours offline, I'll stop seriously complaining about it. Being able to get to [and stay at] 0% and being completely FORCED out of what I want to do was my huge complaint here.


This is where I'm at right now. If they set the magic xp barrier at a decently high amount and the magic xp barrier refresh at a decent rate then I'll have no problem with it.

#146 Aug 26 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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The reaction to this news just shows how many people perceive FFXIV (and ffxi for that matter) to be all about grinding out levels. I'm pretty sure SE considers skill and level advancement to be a significant aspect of the game, but most certianly not the only aspect of the game.

I just think back at FFXI and remember how such a small percentage of my play time was actually spent advancing my character. There were so many more important/fun things to do.... helping friends finish quests and missions, hleping people obtain various items or kill version NMs, bcnm's, limbus, salvage, dynamis, sky, sea, andall of the newer crap I don't even know about.

I'm sure SE is just throttling back the players who's only goal is to max out characters as fast as possible. The reason is that those are the players that start ******** first about how the game sucks because there is not end game content and create an unwarranted negative vibe about the game. They completely ignore all of the early and mid game content and whine because there aren't enough hard-core massive end-game alliance type battles incorporated into the game yet.

I'm not saying that I do or do not support the system, but I think people should realize they are throttling back only one aspect of the game in order to get people taking part in other aspects of the game.



No, im thinking of how i wont be able to play the class i want when i do those things, unless i want to get no possible exp while i do it.

Questing, missions, farm, helping people... cant do it on the job i like because it will restart my surplus dissapearing timer.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:40pm by yinstroo
#147 Aug 26 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
Sage
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393 posts
Mistress Theonehio wrote:
rubypenguin wrote:
All I can say is they better give me a sh*t ton of storage for all the materials I'm gonna get harvesting. I can fill 8 hours up quickly on 1class you better believe. Since I'm now planning on playing con and thau I will have lots of extra time I guess to mine log and fish.


You get 80 inventory slots (which is more than most MMO's default storage, especially with a weight system) and your retainer also has 80 slots.

I thought that was a lot of storage, until I realized how quickly they got filled up with mining, logging, and mob drops. And personally I didn't care for all the +1, +2, and +3 versions. It's like each item is taking up 4 inventory spots.
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