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#52 Aug 26 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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I don't think I understand. Why does it have to be one or the other?


I mean, that they would either artificially increase the game's length like this, or they would raise the EXP needed to level- each being "bad" solutions, but only for one demographic.


Though I think that both are "bad" hypothetical solutions (do we even know that there's a problem to be solved?), I think that the second one is more palatable, because it allows you to play and still make progress towards your goal. The first option makes it so that there are situations where it's pointless to continue leveling a particular class.

Like I said before, a "rested exp" system is much more effective if the idea is to help bolster casuals.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 12:48pm by Eske
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#53 Aug 26 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Yes i am sure. The rate of experience you get as casual player, solo or doing guildleves is so small it will take the casual players ages already to reach cap. Even with 8 guildleves every 2 days since they don't give that much bonus anymore, in fact it's barely 10%.

The experience curve and experience gained is comparable to FFXI. And you tell me a casual can hit 75 (or 80 now) there in a reasonable time?


I do not agree.

Simply because it is painfully apparent that these mechanics are not working as they should (which is why I don't think this game is ready to be released, not because of the lack of content).

Komoto already stated that they are looking to improve the exp gain in parties, and whatever the middleline ends up being, that's where the surplus skill will be as well.

Do remember, also, that in this system you do not take time off for farming, nor do you have to deal with excessive LFG times- making the leveling curve better.

We also do not know the exact rate at which the TNL's will raise as you get higher. For all we know, we might be looking for 1-2h per level until rank 50 and beyond. If our progress were to be slowed down, we would start seeing massive TNL's while exp gain would stay the same.

Everything is being adjusted, even after release, so I would not start going into conclusions.

Quote:
Though I think that both are "bad" hypothetical solutions (do we even know that there's a problem to be solved?), I think that the second one is more palatable, because it allows you to play and still make progress towards your goal. The first option makes it so that there are situations where it's pointless to continue leveling a particular class.

Like I said before, a "rested exp" system is much more effective if the idea is to help bolster casuals.


The problem with rested EXP system is that it basically gives casuals a "time limit" for gaining acceptable EXP. When rested EXP has run out, you progress in the game at a too slow rate for your playtime, making it quite pointless to keep going. You're better off just logging for the day and continuing tomorrow. Casuals would grow frustrated with such system, but hardcore would have no problem with it.

Think about this kind of system in a game where you "need" to level more than one class too. Rested EXP might be enough for one class, but if you want to level more than one class (if only to complement your main class), your progress slows down to a snails pace.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:56pm by Hyanmen
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#54 Aug 26 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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Why not? It takes less XP [from what I've seen so far in the beta] to raise a class vs a physical level. SE admits they're upping class points in parties


Because then it would make leveling your second,third,... class easier, therefore it would be a balance issue. I am going to assume the XP/hour and SKILL/hour limits will be set such that if you play to the maximum they will always be close to the same level.

Of course I am also assuming that when you change class from level 20 to level 1 the amount of physical points your can move around it reduced.
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#55 Aug 26 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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I am sorry to hear that you are not fan of horizontal growth, but it is very important in this game and thinking of it as a bad thing is just a subjective opinion.


But that is a subjective opinion, who is it important to? Not to me, I don't consider it bad or good, I consider the lack of option to choose one route over the other a bad thing. Imagine if they changed it from "You have to change classes because after a certain XP you don't gain anymore" to "If you change classes more than X times in Y (time units) the amount of XP is reduced by Z% for each change". I would still say the system is bad, because then you would punish people that don't want to do only X jobs while playing even though it would not affect me.

Quote:
This system is a side-effect of the developers decision to make the game as grindless as possible. We do not know just how much of a difference it makes, but you can be sure that if this system were to be removed, they would up the TNL's as well- something that casuals would not agree with. Who wants to play a game where you need to play for a week to achieve a single level?


I don't think they removed the grind, they just moved it from one class to multiple class. Instead of leveling only one class you now have to level X number of classes, same amount of time same amount of work, yet the class you really want to level has not moved.
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#56 Aug 26 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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So does it mean 8hrs just logged in or 8hrs in combat mode..? Slightly confused


Neither, let me try to explain:

SE thinks that on average all players can get X amount of XP in H hours. Therefore they say that if you get above this amount then you will start to get a reduction on the amount of XP gained. The whole is issue is kind fuzzy because they say XP/HOUR then say there is an XP limit which I am confused about a little bit, but I think that XP/HOUR is skill XP and XP limit is physical XP.

Hopefully someone can clarify on this?
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#57 Aug 26 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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What i fail to understand with this "surplus Exp" ;

Does your EXP hit 0 after the "set time" or does it just become unbearably low?
With the fact that SE have stated you can either shine at 1 class or be a mixture of a few, doesn't that basically stop the people who want to shine at the 1 class, dead in their tracks?

i'm really unsure about this system, it leaves a lot to be reckoned with.

this "fatigue" system seems alot like a news story i read years ago about JP law being brought out to stop Japanese players spending too much time gaming (can't remember correctly in too much detail, or weather it was a hoax)

But i mean if i do get time to play i want to play how i like not how i'm told to like it.

imagine your just invited to a kick *** party then... 30 mins later 2 of your memebers are like "well i'm out of surplus, later guys"
you then wait 20 mins for another 2 players to arrive only for another player to say the exact same thing, this player then arrives 10 mins later. (hypothetical i know, but it just seems a waste to even try to party, also i know i'm looking at exp as an FFXI party setup)
but you know how people are with stuff like this, SE wants us to do something 1 one way, yet we find it better to do it another.

back to the point, the system should have never been thought of in the first place, let people do it how they want too, if your scared they will level up too quick, do what you did in ffxi, bring out the caps slowly, people will have more fun if they know they are not gonna be punished/handicapped for doing something your telling them they need to do.

its like buying a kid an ice cream and telling him to eat it using his foot.
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#58 Aug 26 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Imagine if, when people hit the max level, and class exp means nothing, everything just becomes this "surplus exp", and they use it for the FFXIV equivalent of meriting. It'll be a little bit of a pain, but it'll be nice later on when they do something with it. Otherwise, when you're max level in one class, what will exp do for you? Without de-leveling and without exp-loss, I can only imagine things going into this "surplus exp" category.
#59 Aug 26 2010 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I consider the lack of option to choose one route over the other a bad thing.


In the end, every game is full of limitations set by the developer.

It's just a matter of choosing games that limits things that you don't put much value in.

Like every other MMO, that limit your option to play any class on any race, or all classes on one character, doing quests from the opposing nation, etc. etc.

Quote:
I don't think they removed the grind, they just moved it from one class to multiple class. Instead of leveling only one class you now have to level X number of classes, same amount of time same amount of work, yet the class you really want to level has not moved.


Oh they obviously did not remove the grind, that wouldn't be an MMO then.

But consider this: You gain a lot more for doing the same amount of work. Whatever you gain on class Y, also applies class X.

While vertically the class you want to level has not moved, that does not mean it is not much stronger than it was before.

How could I explain it in other MMO terms... say, while leveling class X, for every level you would gain multiple times more abilities and spells than before. You would not just become stronger vertically, but horizontally as well.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:12pm by Hyanmen
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#60 Aug 26 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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RyderDecree wrote:
What i fail to understand with this "surplus Exp" ;

Does your EXP hit 0 after the "set time" or does it just become unbearably low?
With the fact that SE have stated you can either shine at 1 class or be a mixture of a few, doesn't that basically stop the people who want to shine at the 1 class, dead in their tracks?

i'm really unsure about this system, it leaves a lot to be reckoned with.


From the official announcement on the Beta Tester Site:

"For the first eight thresholds during this week-long period, players will receive skill/experience points at the maximum rate possible. The actual amount of time spent reaching these thresholds is not significant. That is to say, a player who exceeds eight hours of gameplay will still be rewarded the maximum amount of skill/experience points, so long as the total amount earned is below the eighth threshold value. For the subsequent seven thresholds, players will earn skill/experience points at a gradually decreasing rate, eventually reaching a rate of zero."
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#61 Aug 26 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
But consider this: You gain a lot more for doing the same amount of work. Whatever you gain on class Y, also applies class X.

While vertically the class you want to level has not moved, that does not mean it is not much stronger than it was before.

How could I explain it in other MMO terms... say, while leveling class X, for every level you would gain multiple times more abilities and spells than before. You would not just become stronger vertically, but horizontally as well.


This is true even without the surplus system. Leveling other classes gives you more skills. This is not going to change if you take away this horrible system. In FFXI you become much stronger with a subjob, it did not need to punish players to make them level a subjob. I wonder why that is?

How do i explain this in non MMO terms... how do you teach someone or an animal something new? By punishing bad behaviour or rewarding good behaviour?

I rest my case.
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#62 Aug 26 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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This is true even without the surplus system. Leveling other classes gives you more skills. This is not going to change if you take away this horrible system. In FFXI you become much stronger with a subjob, it did not need to punish players to make them level a subjob. I wonder why that is?


FFXI punished people with the excessive LFG times, high tnl values (although not so high as one would imagine) and how slow paced everything was.

It's no wonder that the game was never casual friendly.

This game could be like FFXI was, too, but SE wants to broaden their playerbase, so its not a wise move to scare away the casuals yet again.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#63 Aug 26 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Does your EXP hit 0 after the "set time" or does it just become unbearably low?
With the fact that SE have stated you can either shine at 1 class or be a mixture of a few, doesn't that basically stop the people who want to shine at the 1 class, dead in their tracks?


Normal Explanation:

Class XP:
After you have been playing your class SE looks at the last X number of hours of playing. It sums up the total XP that has been gained and divides this by the time. If this value is greater than some value they have then you starting getting less XP. Now I am going to assume that SE looks at XP before they remove surplus (Remove surplus?? Really?).

Physical XP:
You can only gain XP_LIMIT during a week, go over and you are cut off.

Programming Explanation:

Class XP:

while( true ) 
{ 
  if( Check_Interrupt( WEEK_RESET ) ) 
  { 
    Surplus_Percentage = 1.0f; 
  } 
   
  if( XP_AMOUNT_AT_TIME( SE_TIME_CRITERIA ) - Total_Class_XP[CURRENT_CLASS] < XP_LIMIT ) 
  { 
    Surplus_Percentage -= 0.1f; 
  } 
 
  Total_Class_XP[CURRENT_CLASS] = Class_XP_Gain * Surplus_Percentage; 
}


Physical XP:

while( true ) 
{ 
  if( WEEK_PASSED() ) 
  { 
    SESSION_PHY_XP = 0; 
  } 
 
  if( SESSION_PHY_XP < LIMIT ) 
  { 
    SESSION_PHY_XP += PHY_XP; 
    TOTAL_PHY_XP += PHY_XP; 
  } 
}


Edited, Aug 26th 2010 1:25pm by deathly809
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"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
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#64 Aug 26 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
This is true even without the surplus system. Leveling other classes gives you more skills. This is not going to change if you take away this horrible system. In FFXI you become much stronger with a subjob, it did not need to punish players to make them level a subjob. I wonder why that is?


FFXI punished people with the excessive LFG times, high tnl values (although not so high as one would imagine) and how slow paced everything was.

It's no wonder that the game was never casual friendly.

This game could be like FFXI was, too, but SE wants to broaden their playerbase, so its not a wise move to scare away the casuals yet again.


So you saying that suddenly people will party a lot more because they get punished for getting too much experience? The opposite is true, people will party less because they can not just party anytime they want now. They have to manage their surplus.

They will not want to party with a specific class because they need that on the weekend for some LS event. I could give you plenty reasons why this system is making LFG worse.

I have no idea how you think that this system will encourage people to party more and how you will get parties faster.

Please do elaborate.
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#65 Aug 26 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But consider this: You gain a lot more for doing the same amount of work. Whatever you gain on class Y, also applies class X.

While vertically the class you want to level has not moved, that does not mean it is not much stronger than it was before.

How could I explain it in other MMO terms... say, while leveling class X, for every level you would gain multiple times more abilities and spells than before. You would not just become stronger vertically, but horizontally as well.


But how many abilities can you move over, and how gimped will they be? Also if you move over abilities from other classes that is less space for the class specific abilities. Also what if I have 0 desire to play some class? What if I only want to level 2 classes and use their abilities?

Some people might like the possibility of having a mix bag character, and I fully support the option of them doing it, however the fact is that I do not want to do that. But other people don't care about what I want and don't realize if it was removed that could still do what they want and I could do what I want. However, they are saying "Well it does not affect me, so I don't think it is that bad", or "Well you don't like it but I do and if you don't like it then you are wrong". How can you like it when it does not affect you? I like that you are punished for not playing like me? It just really makes me upset/irritated and just bleh!

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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#66 Aug 26 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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So you saying that suddenly people will party a lot more because they get punished for getting too much experience? The opposite is true, people will party less because they can not just party anytime they want now. They have to manage their surplus.

They will not want to party with a specific class because they need that on the weekend for some LS event. I could give you plenty reasons why this system is making LFG worse.

I have no idea how you think that this system will encourage people to party more and how you will get parties faster.

Please do elaborate.


No, this system's purpose is not to make people party more. Those incentives come from elsewhere.

What I am saying is that FFXI limited people's growth too, only in a way that hurt casuals the most. XIV does the same thing, but in a different way.

If SE did not have to care about one demographic the solution would be much easier, but unfortunately they are not allowed such luxury.

Also, people can always party, and partying will always benefit their every class, regardless of if they play it at the time or not.

Quote:
But how many abilities can you move over, and how gimped will they be? Also if you move over abilities from other classes that is less space for the class specific abilities. Also what if I have 0 desire to play some class? What if I only want to level 2 classes and use their abilities?

Some people might like the possibility of having a mix bag character, and I fully support the option of them doing it, however the fact is that I do not want to do that. But other people don't care about what I want and don't realize if it was removed that could still do what they want and I could do what I want. However, they are saying "Well it does not affect me, so I don't think it is that bad", or "Well you don't like it but I do and if you don't like it then you are wrong". How can you like it when it does not affect you? I like that you are punished for not playing like me? It just really makes me upset/irritated and just bleh!


Currently, every class has like 1-2 abilities that you can't move over. That's subject to change, of course.

2 classes is already 16 thresholds of leveling, not to mention that while you're on class #2, class #1's threshold recovers. 16 hours a week of leveling.

"A mixed bag character" is the way this game is played. Just like in other games you only play one class with certain race.

I'm not telling you to like this system, I'm trying to tell you that no game is good for everyone out there.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:38pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#67 Aug 26 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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After reading all these replies and doing some thinking here is my conclusion:

With the current way XP is done it does not hurt casuals but hurts hardcore players who do not want to level many jobs. It forces hardcore players to level multiple jobs that they might not want to level. I feel that this might be a way to keep more players at lower levels along with the casuals to ensure if they want to party there are enough people to group with. Another thing that they might be doing is keeping people from end game too quick so that they have time to perfect it and add more quests/missions. The third reason which I feel is the most bs reason is RMT; that reason is total BS because they always find a way to break the rules, they have more time/money than most players and will find a way to gain/sell gil.

If they removed the current way XP is done then hardcore players who want to level one job can, the people who want to level multiple jobs can still do what they want and the casuals can still do what they want. If a majority of people are hardcore one class type players then there will be a huge level gap, however if they are only a minority then there will not be. If the end game is not done then the hardcore players will have to wait for it to be completed first and they might end up leveling another job or work on a craft now. The RMTs will level up and if they start selling gil then just ban them (yeah right).

So in effect, if you have a majority of people who want to level only one class then having the current XP system hurts them for a minority of players, however if most of the players want to level multiple classes then either system would work, however the second system would not hold anyone back. So the first one could oppress a majority/minority group while the second one would only hurt casuals who would probably have no one to level with other than other casuals.
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"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#68 Aug 26 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
After reading all these replies and doing some thinking here is my conclusion:


The only part I don't agree with is that you forgot an important side effect of what would happen if the system were removed.

Quote:
Firstly, the concept for FINAL FANTASY XIV was to design a system of character progression that offers meaningful advancement for those with limited time to dedicate to playing. We did not want to create a game that forced people to play for hours on end to see their efforts rewarded. To that end, in addition to the Guardian's Aspect and guildleve systems, we introduced a means of apportioning swifter advancement to shorter periods of play.


Would become

Quote:
Now that we removed the surplus system from the game, we regret to tell you other measures have been put into place for the time being. The exp needed to level up after rank 10 have been tripled, but no fear dear testers- those who do not play for long periods of time will still be able to progress at a reasonable rate- for 30minutes a day!

We understand that this change will result in a lot of frustration for casuals, but you have no choice but to deal with it.




Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:51pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#69 Aug 26 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
So you saying that suddenly people will party a lot more because they get punished for getting too much experience? The opposite is true, people will party less because they can not just party anytime they want now. They have to manage their surplus.

They will not want to party with a specific class because they need that on the weekend for some LS event. I could give you plenty reasons why this system is making LFG worse.

I have no idea how you think that this system will encourage people to party more and how you will get parties faster.

Please do elaborate.


No, this system's purpose is not to make people party more. Those incentives come from elsewhere.

What I am saying is that FFXI limited people's growth too, only in a way that hurt casuals the most. XIV does the same thing, but in a different way.

If SE did not have to care about one demographic the solution would be much easier, but unfortunately they are not allowed such luxury.

Also, people can always party, and partying will always benefit their every class, regardless of if they play it at the time or not.


All good arguments but then what does this system achieve? Why does it exist?

Instead of punishing the one demographic they now punish another? It might work if there are more casual players than hardcore. I am not entirely sure a game like this will attract the same amount of players as WoW and to be fair, and WoW has a crapload of hardcore gamers.

How about i pay SE $0.02 per hour i play. If i hit hit my play limit i will put the rest of the $15/month into my surplus account where it just sits and does nothing.

Seriously, if i can't play this game when i want, how i want, i don't see a reason paying a monthly fee for 24/7 access.
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#70 Aug 26 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
After reading all these replies and doing some thinking here is my conclusion:


The only part I don't agree with is that you forgot an important side effect of what would happen if the system were removed.


What would happen? The world going to end? Casuals suddenly not getting experience anymore? What?
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#71 Aug 26 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'm not telling you to like this system, I'm trying to tell you that no game is good for everyone out there.


I understand that but the whole idea of this system is crazy. The only people is punishes are people who want to play one character. If you removed it then it would punish no one. I personally like the option of playing multiple classes on one character, I hated having to re-grind everything over and over again on multiple characters if I wanted to play a different class. **** I think most people on WoW just farm with their highest character and send everything to the new one anyways, therefore it is almost like having one character (except Horde/Alliance crap).

I personally love leveling one character for a long time, and then if one day I feel like leveling something else I can. I just hope that it does not hurt me too bad though. If I start to level something and get to 0 exp a lot then I will probably just cancel the game. But hopefully the massive amount of time I spend exploring will offset the surplus crap and I don't see it ever.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#72 Aug 26 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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What would happen? The world going to end? Casuals suddenly not getting experience anymore? What?


Casuals would be left behind because they don't have the time to keep up with the people who have more time.

That is the only argument I can really see that would have any merit. Mostly because end game/rmt arguments to me are not really important to me.

Of course I live with the idea that if you try harder and work longer you should get more than someone who tries less and works less. The system tries to make the casuals work less to keep up with the hardcore people.
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Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#73 Aug 26 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
All good arguments but then what does this system achieve? Why does it exist?

Instead of punishing the one demographic they now punish another? It might work if there are more casual players than hardcore. I am not entirely sure a game like this will attract the same amount of players as WoW and to be fair, and WoW has a crapload of hardcore gamers.


Who are going to be least likely to leave the game out of frustration- casuals or hardcore?

Also, who are the most vocal minority that won't leave the game anyway? Hint: Read FFXI forums for years, look at the size of the playerbase from 2005 to 2009, and guess.

We whine, but that more often than not leads to nothing.

Casuals? If they don't like something, they leave.

Quote:
I understand that but the whole idea of this system is crazy. The only people is punishes are people who want to play one character. If you removed it then it would punish no one


Please read the post I edited above.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:57pm by Hyanmen
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Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#74 Aug 26 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
All good arguments but then what does this system achieve? Why does it exist?

Instead of punishing the one demographic they now punish another? It might work if there are more casual players than hardcore. I am not entirely sure a game like this will attract the same amount of players as WoW and to be fair, and WoW has a crapload of hardcore gamers.

How about i pay SE $0.02 per hour i play. If i hit hit my play limit i will put the rest of the $15/month into my surplus account where it just sits and does nothing.

Seriously, if i can't play this game when i want, how i want, i don't see a reason paying a monthly fee for 24/7 access.


It exists because they (SE) BELIEVE that it closes the gap between hardcore and casual players. To that end, this system would be more effective than a rested EXP system. Not more fair, but more effective for their purpose. That is, until PS3 version comes out and PS3 uses have no hope of catching up to PC players.

WoW does have a crapload of hardcore gamers, but they also have restrictions. Not on leveling from 1-80, but on endgame progression. If you've never played WoW, "raids" are the primary method of obtaining high-end gear. However, each "raid" you can only enter once per week. Meaning if you need a piece of gear from the raid, you only have one chance to get it, and there is often much competition. It doesn't matter whether you are capable of playing 1 day a week or 7, your situation is the same.

Hardcore gamers seem a lot more up-in-arms over FFXIV than casual gamers were about FFXI. Either way, as always, if their system does not meet your needs you can save your money and play a different game. I wouldn't blame you either way. As for me, I'm a hardcore player who STILL plans on enjoying the game. :)
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#75 Aug 26 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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It exists because they (SE) BELIEVE that it closes the gap between hardcore and casual players. To that end, this system would be more effective than a rested EXP system. Not more fair, but more effective for their purpose. That is, until PS3 version comes out and PS3 uses have no hope of catching up to PC players.


I don't think that's the reason. It's what they say, but it's not why they did it.

MMO development is a race between developers and players. When you catch up, the developers lose. There is no going back after that, because no company ever releases "enough" content for those who have already catched up- they release content to slow down how fast players can catch up with them.

When you have done all you can do in an MMO, it's time to wait for the "miracle patch", that never arrives because of what I said above, grow frustrated, and quit. And the company loses.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#76 Aug 26 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Please read the post I edited above.


But the thing is that they could still advance as fast as they did before. You can still solo, do guild leves; removing the exp cap does not remove those from the game. If there are many casuals as they say then I don't see a problem with grouping because of the amount of casuals. If there are not many casuals then you are punishing the hardcores.
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#77 Aug 26 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But the thing is that they could still advance as fast as they did before. You can still solo, do guild leves; removing the exp cap does not remove those from the game. If there are many casuals as they say then I don't see a problem with grouping because of the amount of casuals. If there are not many casuals then you are punishing the hardcores.


When the exp needed has been tripled, I don't think they would advance as fast as they did before.

We can think that if they remove this system nothing will come in it's place, but that is utopistic thinking. They have to do something, or the game won't last. The question is, what would be the best approach for this game? There is no such option as "do nothing", because if you make the game require little grind and do not limit hardcore's progression, in the end no one will be there to play your game.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 6:07pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#78 Aug 26 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
When the exp needed has been tripled, I don't think they would advance as fast as they did before.


Quote:
Firstly, the concept for FINAL FANTASY XIV was to design a system of character progression that offers meaningful advancement for those with limited time to dedicate to playing. We did not want to create a game that forced people to play for hours on end to see their efforts rewarded. To that end, in addition to the Guardian's Aspect and guildleve systems, we introduced a means of apportioning swifter advancement to shorter periods of play.


Removing the XP limit in no way requires extra XP to level. I am not sure why they would make it triple the XP.
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#79 Aug 26 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
All good arguments but then what does this system achieve? Why does it exist?

Instead of punishing the one demographic they now punish another? It might work if there are more casual players than hardcore. I am not entirely sure a game like this will attract the same amount of players as WoW and to be fair, and WoW has a crapload of hardcore gamers.


Who are going to be least likely to leave the game out of frustration- casuals or hardcore?

...

Casuals? If they don't like something, they leave.



I still don't get why we need this system. Casuals will stay with the game even when the system is removed, because SE has chosen to make the game easier (although their idea of easy is far from what a casual gamer has, just wait and see).

Hardcore gamers won't leave, because they are hardcore. So removing the system won't hurt them either. Sure they complain hitting the cap but the will do that anyways as you have pointed out correctly. If not, they find something else to complain about. But they will stay.

Where in all of this discussion can you show me that we need this system? I don't see it at all.

And another good point is that with this system in place NO ONE EVER will be able to catch up. I am going to have a blast when SE introduces an item that comes with the 2011 PS3 release to help them level faster and catch up. That will be hilarious, because right now the system is broken beyond repair.
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#80 Aug 26 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Removing the XP limit in no way requires extra XP to level. I am not sure why they would make it triple the XP.


Because this system is in place to limit hardcore players from advancing too fast.

If they remove this system, they will implement something else. And that usually means- more grinding.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#81 Aug 26 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Because this system is in place to limit hardcore players from advancing too fast.


But then that would imply that they don't care about hardcore players and are willing to punish them even if they are the majority.

I have already mentioned how much BS it would be if they were the minority.

Quote:
If they remove this system, they will implement something else. And that usually means- more grinding.


Grinding never left.
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#82 Aug 26 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:

This game could be like FFXI was, too, but SE wants to broaden their playerbase, so its not a wise move to scare away the casuals yet again.


Yeah, and what people seem to forget is that SE is a company, and they spent a lot of money creating this game (probably hundreds of millions) - and although hardcore folks don't like to believe it - most people in the world have other things to do than play a videogame for 10 hours a day. Therefore, in order to make the money to pay for the game development - SE needs lots of casual subscriptions.

Call us carebears or whatever - but casual players are a way bigger pool than hardcore players AND we use less server resources and use content slower (which means we won't be whining in two weeks that there isn't enough endgame or whatever)

Also the attitude I've seen some people have "I don't want people that don't play 10 hours a day to think they are as good as me" doesn't help anything. Do you think that SE would rather have your single subscription than 100 subs from people who have less time to play? Do you think SE wants to reward you for driving subs away with your arrogant attitude?

I think that the system needs a lot of work and it needs to be balanced better, but I am honestly happy there could be one MMO out there that isn't WoW which is AAA and casual friendly.

You know what my girlfriend said when I told her about surplus exp?

"I like these developers! What a good idea!"

She doesn't game, and she is glad that there will be a system in place that allows me to enjoy the game without giving up the rest of my life.

I bet there are players out there that will sell this as a feature to their non gamer significant others - or teenagers that sell their parents on the game by telling them there is a feature in place to help prevent addiction.

There are tons of games out there that cater to hardcore players. I DO feel bad for the people out there that were really looking forward to this game who are now afraid they won't enjoy it.

However, I honestly think it won't be as bad as some people think it is going to be, and I really hope a balance can be found between people like me who have partners and jobs and friends but still want to enjoy the game without being shut out of parties and the economy and people who want to play all day every day.

In the end people who want to play all day every day may go to another MMO. That would be sad, but I think that just on a business level - it makes way more sense to make the game enjoyable for people with lives outside of gaming (we are the majority) than to cater to the small minority who SOMEHOW can afford to game endlessly.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#83 Aug 26 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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But then that would imply that they don't care about hardcore players and are willing to punish them even if they are the majority.

I have already mentioned how much BS it would be if they were the minority.


They either "don't care" about hardcore players or they "don't care" about casual players.

Who are going to be leaving faster if the game is not for them? Casuals or hardcore? This is something they had to think about too.

Quote:
Grinding never left.


Excessive grinding did. Grinding that would frustrate casuals did.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#84 Aug 26 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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@Grand Master Scribe Olorinus

Casuals will never see the surplus system ever. Also if casuals are a majority like you say they are then even without the XP caps there will always be plenty of people to group with besides the solo play, guild leves, and quests/missions/whatever.
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#85 Aug 26 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
deathly809 wrote:
@Grand Master Scribe Olorinus

Casuals will never see the surplus system ever. Also if casuals are a majority like you say they are then even without the XP caps there will always be plenty of people to group with besides the solo play, guild leves, and quests/missions/whatever.


It is not just partying - it is also about people monopolizing the economy - and expectations of endgame linkshells etc. If people feel like they are looked down upon because they can't play 10 hours a day - that is no fun. If people have to grind for 10 hours to afford a robe they need because people powergrind to upper levels and control the economy (RMT/hardcore) they will quit. When casuals quit because of these issues, then yeah, parties will be a problem.



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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#86 Aug 26 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
Look, SE already tried doing it without limitation - what they got was widely acknowledged as one of the most grindtastic AAA MMOs - FFXI.

Many of us quit FFXI because we didn't have the time to play it anymore. If you didn't log in for 5 hours there was no point in logging in at all.

This is their attempt to do it differently. I for one am glad I will be able to play for a half hour at lunch time and feel like I accomplished something.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#87 Aug 26 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You know what my girlfriend said when I told her about surplus fatigue exp?

"I like these developers! What a good idea!"


You know what my wife said when I told her about surplus fatigue exp?

"so you're telling me they're gonna decide how I play the game I paid my money for, F*** that"!

And her current schedule is so booked at this point she'll never come anywhere NEAR any caps.

I love my wife :D
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#88 Aug 26 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

You know what my wife said when I told her about surplus fatigue exp?

"so you're telling me they're gonna decide how I play the game I paid my money for, F*** that"!

And her current schedule is so booked at this point she'll never come anywhere NEAR any caps.

I love my wife :D


Ahaha! I love gamer couples. My boyfriend and I went out for lunch yesterday and spent the entire time discussing surplus. I regret nothing! It's actually a good life. :)
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#89 Aug 26 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Who are going to be least likely to leave the game out of frustration- casuals or hardcore?

Also, who are the most vocal minority that won't leave the game anyway? Hint: Read FFXI forums for years, look at the size of the playerbase from 2005 to 2009, and guess.

We whine, but that more often than not leads to nothing.

Casuals? If they don't like something, they leave.




I don't understand your line of reasoning here. You're saying that "hardcore" players are less likely to actually leave? Perhaps they are less likely to leave an MMO once they have become well entrenched into the game, due to the value they put on their past efforts. If a game puts artificial time constraints on them being able to actually Be "Hardcore", they'll leave faster than anyone. Why stick with a game that won't let you play? There are no allegiances to a brand new game...

Casual players leave games for all sorts of reasons. The fact that they are "Casual" about the game touches on the fact that they have no strong allegiance to the game at all. Gets too hard? They quit. Can't get some purdy piece of gear? Quit. New game comes along? Game over. Trying to build a strong, lasting playerbase around casual players is an exercise in futility. By the very definition of casual, these players cannot or refuse to commit themselves long term.
#90 Aug 26 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
The problem with rested EXP system is that it basically gives casuals a "time limit" for gaining acceptable EXP. When rested EXP has run out, you progress in the game at a too slow rate for your playtime, making it quite pointless to keep going. You're better off just logging for the day and continuing tomorrow. Casuals would grow frustrated with such system, but hardcore would have no problem with it.

Think about this kind of system in a game where you "need" to level more than one class too. Rested EXP might be enough for one class, but if you want to level more than one class (if only to complement your main class), your progress slows down to a snails pace.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:56pm by Hyanmen


I don't follow. Why do you refer to that as "acceptable EXP"? The bonus experience that's typically accrued due to a resting system is just that...a bonus. Without it, you simply gain the normal level of experience. The systems are usually balanced so that it's never more efficient to simply log out and wait for the rest to accrue again.

And on what are you basing your assertion that it would frustrate casuals? I'm a casual player, and I've always enjoyed "rested exp" systems tremendously.

Lastly, if this is a game where you "need" to level more than one class, then people will generally level more than one class. If SE wants to add further incentives, that's fine. But I don't see a pressing need to do so. And certainly not one so dire that SE should adopt systems that detract from player experience like this does.
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#91 Aug 26 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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It is not just partying - it is also about people monopolizing the economy - and expectations of endgame linkshells etc. If people feel like they are looked down upon because they can't play 10 hours a day - that is no fun. If people have to grind for 10 hours to afford a robe they need because people powergrind to upper levels and control the economy (RMT/hardcore) they will quit. When casuals quit because of these issues, then yeah, parties will be a problem.


Monopolies - This will happen no matter what. Someone will spend ungodly hours farming for materials even if they get no XP game, and I am 100% RMT will do this too, it has nothing to do with level either, if you have to farm at level X to get a robe then you know 20 RMTS will be doing the same. Just look at WoW, it is casual friendly, how many RMT are there?

Endgame Linkshells - That has nothing to do with XP gain.

Looked down upon - You can't please everyone.

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#92 Aug 26 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
ascorbic wrote:

Casual players leave games for all sorts of reasons. The fact that they are "Casual" about the game touches on the fact that they have no strong allegiance to the game at all. Gets too hard? They quit. Can't get some purdy piece of gear? Quit. New game comes along? Game over. Trying to build a strong, lasting playerbase around casual players is an exercise in futility. By the very definition of casual, these players cannot or refuse to commit themselves long term.



Casual doesn't mean not committed it means people who have lives. The only way I would quit is if I find I can't play the game enjoyably because there is an expectation I lose my job, my girlfriend and my friends if I want to play.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#93 Aug 26 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand your line of reasoning here. You're saying that "hardcore" players are less likely to actually leave? Perhaps they are less likely to leave an MMO once they have become well entrenched into the game, due to the value they put on their past efforts. If a game puts artificial time constraints on them being able to actually Be "Hardcore", they'll leave faster than anyone. Why stick with a game that won't let you play? There are no allegiances to a brand new game...


That may be. I still think they are more willing to put up with it than casuals are, nonetheless.

I'm not saying that SE isn't losing subscribers because of this. What I'm saying, is that it's the least of the 2 evils.

Quote:
I don't follow. Why do you refer to that as "acceptable EXP"? The bonus experience that's typically accrued due to a resting system is just that...a bonus. Without it, you simply gain the normal level of experience. The systems are usually balanced so that it's never more efficient to simply log out and wait for the rest to accrue again.


You should think about *why* it's there. It helps casuals to keep gaining acceptable exp in a game where the exp curve is balanced with hardcore in mind. When you run out of rested EXP, it is no longer acceptable exp for your effort/reward.

For hardcore, normal leveling session is, let's say, 4-5 hours. If he can gain a level in that time, it's acceptable.

For casual, normal leveling session would be, let's say, 30 minutes to an hour. If he can gain a level in that time, it's acceptable.

But if it takes him 4-5 days to gain a level, he feels like he is not making any progress. And the only way he can gain a level in that time, is with rested EXP. And when it runs out, playing for that extra 30minutes would be nigh useless because he just wouldn't gain enough exp to make it feel worthwhile.

He would be, essentially, limited to the period in which he can gain rested EXP.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 6:48pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#94 Aug 26 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Look, SE already tried doing it without limitation - what they got was widely acknowledged as one of the most grindtastic AAA MMOs - FFXI.

Many of us quit FFXI because we didn't have the time to play it anymore. If you didn't log in for 5 hours there was no point in logging in at all.

This is their attempt to do it differently. I for one am glad I will be able to play for a half hour at lunch time and feel like I accomplished something.


How does limiting other players opportunities to play increase your sense of accomplishment in a smaller time frame?

I understand your desire to streamline the MMO experience. Less LFG time, less grinding to the cap, increased solo viability, faster travel options all help those on a tight schedule get into the game and get something done in a timely manner. Does slowing everyone else down help you grow faster? Not in the slightest.
#95 Aug 26 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Casual doesn't mean not committed it means people who have lives. The only way I would quit is if I find I can't play the game enjoyably because there is an expectation I lose my job, my girlfriend and my friends if I want to play.


Casual can mean all sorts of things, yours is one definition, I listed several others. All are included in the "Casual" banner.

If the only way you'd quit is a threat to your RL activities, then I'd think efforts to increase your productivity in defined time constraints would be more productive than slowing everyone else down to your speed... Is the game less fun for you if you know someone else is farther along than you? If not, it's hard to defend these restrictions...
#96 Aug 26 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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You know what my wife said when I told her about surplus EXP?

"I don't give a #@$%!"

Ah, I love her but games just aren't her thing. We do have other stuff in common, honest!
#97 Aug 26 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
You should think about *why* it's there. It helps casuals to keep gaining acceptable exp in a game where the exp curve is balanced with hardcore in mind. When you run out of rested EXP, it is no longer acceptable exp for your effort/reward.

For hardcore, normal leveling session is, let's say, 4-5 hours. If he can gain a level in that time, it's acceptable.

For casual, normal leveling session would be, let's say, 30 minutes to an hour. If he can gain a level in that time, it's acceptable.

But if it takes him 4-5 days to gain a level, he feels like he is not making any progress. And the only way he can gain a level in that time, is with rested EXP. And when it runs out, playing for that extra 30minutes would be nigh useless because he just wouldn't gain enough exp to make it feel worthwhile.

He would be, essentially, limited to the period in which he can gain rested EXP.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 6:48pm by Hyanmen


Doesn't that argument depend on an arbitrary compulsion to level up within a single playing session?
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#98 Aug 26 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand your line of reasoning here. You're saying that "hardcore" players are less likely to actually leave? Perhaps they are less likely to leave an MMO once they have become well entrenched into the game, due to the value they put on their past efforts. If a game puts artificial time constraints on them being able to actually Be "Hardcore", they'll leave faster than anyone. Why stick with a game that won't let you play? There are no allegiances to a brand new game...


That may be. I still think they are more willing to put up with it than casuals are, nonetheless.

I'm not saying that SE isn't losing subscribers because of this. What I'm saying, is that it's the least of the 2 evils.


And I'm saying you're way off base. You're assuming people have some sort of "Hardcore" allegiance/affiliation to an unreleased game. And that's absolutely untrue. You're characterizing the "Hardcore" player as someone so emotionally invested in a game they've yet to play that they'd stick around to play it for the rare occasions they're given the freedom to do as they wish. Does that sound like something you'd be up for?

There are NO hardcore FFXIV players now. No one has put the time and effort to attach themselves to the game enough to HAVE hardcore attachments to it. The system as descibed only makes it harder for anyone to reach that level.

I can't think of a single person that would want to pay for unlimited access to a game, only to have it tell you how long you can productively play for. I'm rather surprised to see anyone applauding such a move. I've got kids, a wife, friends, and countless duties and other activities that are a part of my life. It's been about 5 years since anyone in their right mind would consider me a "Hardcore" MMOer... and I can still see this is wrong.

#99 Aug 26 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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For the first eight thresholds during this week-long period, players will receive skill/experience points at the maximum rate possible. The actual amount of time spent reaching these thresholds is not significant. That is to say, a player who exceeds eight hours of gameplay will still be rewarded the maximum amount of skill/experience points, so long as the total amount earned is below the eighth threshold value.


Come to think of it...............

Is it fixed throughout? Example if the EXP theshold is 100,000, will it still be a 100,000, when I reach Lv30?
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#100 Aug 26 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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So what are you to do in the game if you aren't gaining EXP and not at level cap for end game? This seems arbitrary to me as a way to make the grind longer without making people actually grind. I don't care for it.
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#101 Aug 26 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Doesn't that argument depend on an arbitrary compulsion to level up within a single playing session?


Not really, but only what is "acceptable".

Some casuals may find it acceptable that they have to grind for 4 days before they get from lvl 27 to 28.

I don't think many will though.

Quote:
And I'm saying you're way off base. You're assuming people have some sort of "Hardcore" allegiance/affiliation to an unreleased game. And that's absolutely untrue. You're characterizing the "Hardcore" player as someone so emotionally invested in a game they've yet to play that they'd stick around to play it for the rare occasions they're given the freedom to do as they wish. Does that sound like something you'd be up for?


Not really emotionally invested, but willing to go through extra hurdles to be where he wants to be.

That can be excessive grind, or it can be this system. They are more willing to cope with it.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 7:08pm by Hyanmen
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