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#102 Aug 26 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Put up a new thread with some answers to commonly asked questions and miss-perceptions, if you want me to add anything let me know.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=128284930152692327&page=1
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#103 Aug 26 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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And I'm saying you're way off base. You're assuming people have some sort of "Hardcore" allegiance/affiliation to an unreleased game. And that's absolutely untrue. You're characterizing the "Hardcore" player as someone so emotionally invested in a game they've yet to play that they'd stick around to play it for the rare occasions they're given the freedom to do as they wish. Does that sound like something you'd be up for?


Not really emotionally invested, but willing to go through extra hurdles to be where he wants to be.

That can be excessive grind, or it can be this system. They are more willing to cope with it.


Lunacy. Hardcore players might be willing to tolerate greater adversity... but when you aren't allowed to play you aren't really a player, are you? The Hardcore segment derives its greatest satisfaction in long play sessions and being around the playerbase attacking the biggest challenges.... you're applauding a system that robs them of that freedom, and assuming they'll mumble and go along? Crazy talk. You can throw a lot of crapola at these kids perhaps, but how do you imagine they'll accept a game forcing them to be Not "Hardcore"? You must think these guys really like the character models or something....
#104 Aug 26 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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Doesn't that argument depend on an arbitrary compulsion to level up within a single playing session?


Not really, but only what is "acceptable".

Some casuals may find it acceptable that they have to grind for 4 days before they get from lvl 27 to 28.

I don't think many will though.


With all due respect, I think you're wrong. Rested experience is unarguably a step up from a standard experience system, and it's designed specifically to help mediate the very thing that you're chastising it for: slower leveling times for casual players.

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that such a system could be balanced in a way that most casual players will not run out of bonus experience before they're finished leveling for the day (or at least, soon thereafter).
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#105 Aug 26 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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deathly809 wrote:
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But the biggest advantage to this system is already implemented. The effort/reward ratio can be made much better, like Komoto said. There is no need for excessive TNL's to slow down hardcore while punishing casuals.


The one thing I really dislike about this is that it holds me back. I am going to not level a bunch of classes like some other people so I will have 2 or 3 classes being leveled. I am afraid that some casual players who play way less will consider themselves to be just as good or better than me because the rank of my class is the same as theirs. I really don't want to deal with people who think they are just as good as me because I am limited in class growth and we have the same rank but they are not as experienced in playing the game.
So in summary you are just worried about your e-peen.
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#106 Aug 26 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Lunacy. Hardcore players might be willing to tolerate greater adversity... but when you aren't allowed to play you aren't really a player, are you? The Hardcore segment derives its greatest satisfaction in long play sessions and being around the playerbase attacking the biggest challenges.... you're applauding a system that robs them of that freedom, and assuming they'll mumble and go along? Crazy talk. You can throw a lot of crapola at these kids perhaps, but how do you imagine they'll accept a game forcing them to be Not "Hardcore"? You must think these guys really like the character models or something....


There is no such thing as "not being allowed to play".

There is only "not being allowed to play how you want", and you can find this in any game.

Quote:
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that such a system could be balanced in a way that most casual players will not run out of bonus experience before they're finished leveling for the day (or at least, soon thereafter).


That would be like punishing hardcore- again. Casuals play with 100% experience, hardcore play with 50%. And when rested EXP runs out, you hit 50% surplus, suddenly. Time limit sucks.

Because that's also how you can twist it.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 7:28pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 7:29pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#107 Aug 26 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
Hyanmen wrote:

There is no such thing as "not being allowed to play".
There is only "not being allowed to play how you want", and you can find this in any game.


EXACTLY. In world of warcraft I want to be able to level all the classes on one character - BUT I CAN'T.

So I don't give WoW my money - since I don't like that system. Every game has limitations. It is no more or less artificial for WoW to tell me I need to roll a new character to change my class than it is for SE to say my character "gets tired" and can't get the same level of experience after grinding for 8 hours.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#108 Aug 26 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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personally i think the whole xp cap thing should be removed. It just is a confusing system it seems and it only real benefit is at the start of release of Final Fantasy XIV so that players have an even chance. however this will somewhat be broken considering that people who buy the CE will have acess to the game 8 days before everyone else and thus have a chance to level up more in those 8 days...so by the time that most players get into the game there will already be a bunch of players who will be much higher levels!

in this case..they really should just remove this system it only seems to punish the players who have more time on their hands....

and honestly it will also punish new players...i think one of the biggest hurdles many newcomers have with getting into a MMO is the amount of time it takes to level up from low level to higher level as they may have heard about the game from a friend but that friend most likely already has a higher level....

if the cap is enabled this means that new players who have much time on their hands will be limited to how much xp they can earn.

I just think this is a bad system. The only way this can honestly be useful is to limit the maximum "level" in game upon the first weeks of release if they really want to give everyone a "fair chance".

and if another reason they are doing this is to prevent gold farmers or other sites from selling more accounts...in the end. if it becomes more difficult and time consuming to level up your char faster.. it will mean these other sites will be able to charge more and make more moneey!

so while in the end Square may be doing this to try to prevent an unfair advantage i think in the end this will cause more harm then good.

Which is another reason why i dont plan to buy the game right away. as my biggest gripe is it seems to take forever to level up in any MMO where at first the quests can be fun and interesting but more often then not they just in the end lead to frustration.
#109 Aug 26 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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I have stolen this post from a poster on the Beta boards. I think it explains the reasoning and mind frame of SE oon the surplus issue nicely.



When designing an MMO, one of the things that needs to go in is some sort of limit on the possible progression of players. Developers need to control the rate at which players can approach the endgame, and other milestones along the way. Usually this is done with an XP curve.

An XP curve is really nothing more than a time sink. Developers decide how long they want certain segments of the game to take--how long they want certain level ranges to last, and ultimately how long it should take players to reach endgame. They then balance the amount of XP it is possible to gain in a given timeframe with the amount required to move beyond a certain a certain point, or level up.

XP gain may give the illusion of progression but that's all it is--an illusion. Gaining XP is not progressing a character. It does not impart any new strengths or abilities by itself. Levels are the real progression. Levels provide increased statistics and new abilities.

In reality, a game is designed and played from level to level, not from one experience point to the next. Being level 57 with 8000 XP towards level 58 doesn't let you do level 58 content any more than being level 57 woth 0 XP towards level 58 does. Being level 58 lets you do level 58 content. The XP required to get from level 57 to level 58 is merely a time sink. You spend enough time grinding it out, and you get to be level 58.

Experience point income is balanced against the total XP required for a level up in such a way as to have players spending a certain amount of time between level ups. This is true in any MMO, and Final Fantasy XIV is no different.

However, FFXIV puts a spin on the system. The developers for FFXIV are looking at it from the perspective that levels are the progression, not XP. XP is certainly not useless, but it is merely a means to an end. They also, like all developers, have in mind a rate at which they want players to reach certain level milestones.

For most MMOs, with a purely XP-based system, if the developers decide that levels should be gained at the rate of 1 per week, players have to grind away all week, making no real character progress, until they get that 1 level at the end of the week. THAT is the progress--regardless of whatever number is in the XP box, it is the 1 level that ultimately matters. And if you can't grind away all week, you don't get it. If it takes you three times as long to rack up the necessary game time, you get no progress on your character at all for three weeks.

The fatigue system is also a time sink, but functions a bit differently. It still works off of the concept that players should only attain a certain amount of progression per week, but it doles out that progression more quickly up front. This has two important effects. First, it means that even those who cannot play 6-8 hours a day every day can make some progress. Not as much overall, but some. Second, it means that after the week's progression on one class has been reached, players are free to mess around with others--a level of freedom and diversification that most games don't have.

Make no mistake; if SE decides that you should only gain 3 levels in a class per week, then that is all you will gain. Without fatigue--with a basic XP system--all your play time in that week would be devoted to a single class as XP requirements increase to compensate, and wanting to level something else would mean sacrificing progression in that one class.

With the fatigue system, instead of sacrificing XP time to do things that don't involve leveling your main class, you get to have all the XP you'd normally get for the week anyway, and then focus on other aspects of the game. Want to level another class? Go do it. Want to quest? Sure. How about crafting? Also an option. Or maybe you just want to explore. In other MMOs, all of these activities come at the cost of XP. That is not the case here. And if you really want to grind away at one class well, you can hop on it at the beginning of the week, and still have time to hit it again later in the week after surplus has cleared from not leveling it. Bonus!

Final Fantasy XIV was designed with a certain philosophy. The fatigue system is part of enacting that philosophy. It is no more limiting than a standard XP system, as progression is balanced around it. It offers more freedom than conventional systems, simply by allowing for different allocations of play time with no penalty. Can it stand some tweaking and balancing? Probably. But doing away with it entirely will cause a progression rebalance what will completely undermine any kind of horizontal character development, as well as force unnecessary choices between whether to XP a main class, or do anything else. And the ultimate gain on main class progression will be no different.
#110 Aug 26 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
EXACTLY. In world of warcraft I want to be able to level all the classes on one character - BUT I CAN'T.

So I don't give WoW my money - since I don't like that system. Every game has limitations. It is no more or less artificial for WoW to tell me I need to roll a new character to change my class than it is for SE to say my character "gets tired" and can't get the same level of experience after grinding for 8 hours.


But you can get around this, you just have to send stuff from your main to your alt. The only differences is that your name, rank, and quests have to be redone. I think the main problem I had with WoW was that it was easy. Some people like games that are easy but I feel that it diminishes the value of the end result.
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Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#111 Aug 26 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that such a system could be balanced in a way that most casual players will not run out of bonus experience before they're finished leveling for the day (or at least, soon thereafter).


That would be like punishing hardcore- again. Casuals play with 100% experience, hardcore play with 50%. And when rested EXP runs out, you hit 50% surplus, suddenly. Time limit sucks.

Because that's also how you can twist it.


Could you twist it that way? Sure. But you'd be trying very hard to turn a positive thing into a negative one.

That argument came and a long time ago. The system is fairly standard now, and the average person doesn't have any issue with it. Just sayin'.
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#112 Aug 26 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Could you twist it that way? Sure. But you'd be trying very hard to turn a positive thing into a negative one.

That argument came and a long time ago. The system is fairly standard now, and the average person doesn't have any issue with it. Just sayin'.


Is it positive that such system is needed to bring the grind into acceptable level for casuals? I don't think so.

Modern MMO's don't realize the need for this kind of system, because they try to imitate WoW and WoW is the only game that can make it work- because they can largely ignore a demographic and get away with it.

MMO's die because of various things, and this is one of them, that applies to universally every MMO.

First leaves the hardcore, those who are the base of your playerbase. Then leaves the casuals, later on but inevitably so. And no more casuals join in after that, if you don't have massive marketing resources and great PR department. Leaving behind only a dying game that goes F2P after a while.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#113 Aug 26 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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"Yes i am sure. The rate of experience you get as casual player, solo or doing guildleves is so small it will take the casual players ages already to reach cap. Even with 8 guildleves every 2 days since they don't give that much bonus anymore, in fact it's barely 10%."

Just thought I'd chime in on this. Guild Leves do give a substantial amount more Skill points then regular EXP but you have to activate Guardian Fervor to get it. You can't activate Fervor without a guild leve currently, but doing so dramatically increases the skill up rate. I can easily get 1-1.5k Skill points per mob during a leve if I work at it with fervor up.
#114 Aug 26 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
There is no such thing as "not being allowed to play".

There is only "not being allowed to play how you want", and you can find this in any game.


I guess that depends on your definition of "play".

You can point to countless things a player may still be permitted to accomplish, but if it isn't something that the player enjoys or is interested in, it can't really be termed "Play" now can it? We are talking about a game here, after all. Bottom line is that such a restriction artificially limits how far a player can progress, but when they can as well. "Weekend warriors" may not play any more per week than other casual players, but could easily bump into these restrictions more often simply because their playtime is focused in fewer, but longer, sessions. There really is no benefit in trying to tell an entire playerbase to play at the same rate and in the same doses.
#115 Aug 26 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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There really is no benefit in trying to tell an entire playerbase to play at the same rate and in the same doses


Only the upper tier players, and only those who will not under any circumstances level any other class.

Basically those who want to gimp themselves.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 7:54pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#116 Aug 26 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
EXACTLY. In world of warcraft I want to be able to level all the classes on one character - BUT I CAN'T.

So I don't give WoW my money - since I don't like that system. Every game has limitations. It is no more or less artificial for WoW to tell me I need to roll a new character to change my class than it is for SE to say my character "gets tired" and can't get the same level of experience after grinding for 8 hours.


Now you're just being argumentative. You could have just as easily said, "But I want to have wings!!!!" While you (and I) may prefer to have 1 character for all classes, nothing prevents a player from leveling all classes that he or she desires in WoW, and at the rate they choose. This system doesn't just slow the rate of growth of players, it flat out halts it.
#117 Aug 26 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Now you're just being argumentative. You could have just as easily said, "But I want to have wings!!!!" While you (and I) may prefer to have 1 character for all classes, nothing prevents a player from leveling all classes that he or she desires in WoW, and at the rate they choose. This system doesn't just slow the rate of growth of players, it flat out halts it.


It still does not halt it. It only turns it to a horizontal growth.

The game prevents me from playing all classes I choose on the character I choose. Completely.

Different limitation, same result. Both can be avoided but it's not a satisfactory solution for many.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 7:57pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#118 Aug 26 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
There really is no benefit in trying to tell an entire playerbase to play at the same rate and in the same doses


Only the upper tier players, and only those who will not under any circumstances level any other class.


I suppose anyone that bumps into this cap, by your definition is "Upper Tier" or "Hardcore" and it's gonna hit a lot more people as currently constructed than you're intimating. As I mentioned above, this current cap affects people not only by how many hours they wish to level a week, but also how the divvy up that time. A player with no real opportunity to play during the week and limited to 1-2 sessions during the weekend could still easily run into this without playing anymore often than another casual player who plays more often and in smaller segments, allowing for some regen of the surplus to occur. Now you're not only advocating holding people from their own play preferences, but you're also dictating to them how long they should play for, and how often.

What I'm hearing is "I don't think it will affect me, so everyone complaining plays too much." And it's plain to see that not everyone wants to play the same way. That's kind of the essence of the genre...

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:03pm by ascorbic
#119 Aug 26 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It still does not halt it. It only turns it to a horizontal growth.

The game prevents me from playing all classes I choose on the character I choose. Completely.

Different limitation, same result. Both can be avoided but it's not a satisfactory solution for many.


I don't believe there is the same limitation, you can still play another character as far as you want. If you change you can, you don't even have to farm on a new character either, you can just farm on your high level one and send all the armor,pots,gold,etc... to your new character easily.

The only things that you have to do on your new character are items you cannot trade and quests.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#120 Aug 26 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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croythegreat wrote:
"Yes i am sure. The rate of experience you get as casual player, solo or doing guildleves is so small it will take the casual players ages already to reach cap. Even with 8 guildleves every 2 days since they don't give that much bonus anymore, in fact it's barely 10%."

Just thought I'd chime in on this. Guild Leves do give a substantial amount more Skill points then regular EXP but you have to activate Guardian Fervor to get it. You can't activate Fervor without a guild leve currently, but doing so dramatically increases the skill up rate. I can easily get 1-1.5k Skill points per mob during a leve if I work at it with fervor up.


That was at the beginning of B3, they adjusted that and when i started a new level 1 Conj on an alt i made to test new progression i found that doing the 3 guildleves that you can do at the start barely took me above level 2. That was with guardians favour.

The exp curve is just as hard as any regular grind or FFXI. It's too much for a casual player because they sure wont level once a session. 20+ it will take those 10h a week casuals at least 2 weeks to level up. I am looking forward to the arguments defending this screwed up exp cap system then.

Right now, there is no argument for it. No one benefits from it. If they change exp and make the curve easier, fine. But as it was right before B3 went this was not casual friendly by a long shot.
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#121 Aug 26 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Now you're just being argumentative. You could have just as easily said, "But I want to have wings!!!!" While you (and I) may prefer to have 1 character for all classes, nothing prevents a player from leveling all classes that he or she desires in WoW, and at the rate they choose. This system doesn't just slow the rate of growth of players, it flat out halts it.


It still does not halt it. It only turns it to a horizontal growth.

The game prevents me from playing all classes I choose on the character I choose. Completely.

Different limitation, same result. Both can be avoided but it's not a satisfactory solution for many.


An insane comparison. WoW's character system doesn't prevent you from leveling any job you wish, in any order you wish, at any rate you wish. XIV's current system limits which job you can level and how far you can level it. To achieve your version of growth requires the player be interested in growing in such a fashion. Once again, this is pushing one type of leveling on others. Now if WoW said you could only level each job 2 levels per week, you'd have a comparison. As it stands you're griping about two totally different things. It's like comparing the fatigue system to the color of the road...




Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:11pm by ascorbic
#122 Aug 26 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Default
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I don't believe there is the same limitation, you can still play another character as far as you want. If you change you can, you don't even have to farm on a new character either, you can just farm on your high level one and send all the armor,pots,gold,etc... to your new character easily.


But I don't want to play another character. I want one character to adventure with.

It is not the same limitation, but it is just as bad for some people like me who are attached to their character yet want to be able to do everything you can do in the game with it.

The same way you can progress your class horizontally instead of vertically in this system. You don't like it, that's a-okay.

Every game has it's limitations. I hate having to play 2+ characters to experience everything, you hate having to deal with horizontal progression to enhance your class. It's all cool.

Quote:
An insane comparison. WoW's character system doesn't prevent you from leveling any job you wish, in any order you wish, at any rate you wish.


Oh, where is this class change NPC?! I think I need to resubscribe

Quote:
What I'm hearing is "I don't think it will affect me, so everyone complaining plays too much." And it's plain to see that not everyone wants to play the same way. That's kind of the essence of the genre...


"Every game must cater to everyone."

Sorry, it does not work that way.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 8:15pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#123 Aug 26 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't believe there is the same limitation, you can still play another character as far as you want. If you change you can, you don't even have to farm on a new character either, you can just farm on your high level one and send all the armor,pots,gold,etc... to your new character easily.


Erm, just like you can (on FFXI) still play on another class as much as you want. If you change classes, you don't have to farm on that class, you can farm on your high level class to get gear or whatever for your new class. I think the point he was trying to make was that a lot of people don't LIKE that they have to create an entirely new character, just like a lot of people don't LIKE that they have to level an entirely new class. The WoW model limits the growth of the character (eg. a character can't be both a Mage and a Priest; to go even further, some races aren't even allowed to be Mage or Priest whatsoever, you are forced to pick your race based on the class you want to be.), the FFXIV model limits the growth of the class. It is a legitimate comparison for the reason that both instances deal with a player not being able to achieve growth in the direction that they want. For WoW, it's horizontal growth. For FFXIV, it's vertical growth.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:16pm by Kaelia88
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#124 Aug 26 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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But I don't want to play another character. I want one character to adventure with.


Well I don't want to level another class. If it just boils down to "I don't want to" then no logical statements will ever win on either side.

But I think the main idea is that you have horizontal growth in WoW, it is just that you don't want to do it because you lose your character name/quests.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#125 Aug 26 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
It still does not halt it. It only turns it to a horizontal growth.

The game prevents me from playing all classes I choose on the character I choose. Completely.

Different limitation, same result. Both can be avoided but it's not a satisfactory solution for many.


I don't believe there is the same limitation, you can still play another character as far as you want. If you change you can, you don't even have to farm on a new character either, you can just farm on your high level one and send all the armor,pots,gold,etc... to your new character easily.

The only things that you have to do on your new character are items you cannot trade and quests.


but I don't want to redo anything, and I don't want to have to play with a different character - and I don't want to have to be a specific race. So I don't play the game, because it doesn't suit me. It is just that simple. If you want to play a game where you just grind one class all day and all night 95% of MMOs will give you that experience. If SE doesn't want to give you that experience you either need to deal with it or vote with your dollars and play time.

There are limits in all games.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#126 Aug 26 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
deathly809 wrote:


But I think the main idea is that you have horizontal growth in WoW, it is just that you don't want to do it because you lose your character name/quests.


and the main idea is you have vertical growth in FFXIV - you just don't want to take your time about it.

No different. It is a preference. What makes your preference take precident. I want to play a game where I don't have to play forever to progress - which means there needs to be a different system than a gameplay time sink to keep people from getting to endgame in two weeks.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#127 Aug 26 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
then no logical statements will ever win on either side.


Bingo, because there is no "winner". There are only different sides of the same spectrum.

Quote:
But I think the main idea is that you have horizontal growth in WoW, it is just that you don't want to do it because you lose your character name/quests.


I basically lose "who I am". I become an account, instead of a character.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#128 Aug 26 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Erm, just like you can (on FFXI) still play on another class as much as you want. If you change classes, you don't have to farm on that class, you can farm on your high level class to get gear or whatever for your new class. I think the point he was trying to make was that a lot of people don't LIKE that they have to create an entirely new character, just like a lot of people don't LIKE that they have to level an entirely new class. The WoW model limits the growth of the character (eg. a character can't be both a Mage and a Priest; to go even further, some races aren't even allowed to be Mage or Priest whatsoever, you are forced to pick your race based on the class you want to be.), the FFXIV model limits the growth of the class. It is a legitimate comparison for the reason that both instances deal with a player not being able to achieve growth in the direction that they want. For WoW, it's horizontal growth. For FFXIV, it's vertical growth.


Well then the problem is that people don't want a new character, which I can understand that completely. However the fact is that you can in essence do both vertical and horizontal growth as far as you want, but only on your account and server. In FFXIV you can only do horizontal growth as far as you want but are limited in vertical growth.

So in the end you can do both in WoW but you have to give up your name/quests but is that almost nothing compared to the fact that you can't even do it at all in FFXIV?
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#129 Aug 26 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
but I don't want to redo anything, and I don't want to have to play with a different character - and I don't want to have to be a specific race. So I don't play the game, because it doesn't suit me. It is just that simple. If you want to play a game where you just grind one class all day and all night 95% of MMOs will give you that experience. If SE doesn't want to give you that experience you either need to deal with it or vote with your dollars and play time.

There are limits in all games.


Exactly.

On a per character basis WoW doesn't limit vertical growth the way FFXIV does, but FFXIV doesn't limit horizontal growth like WoW does. In both cases, you either have to adapt to their system, or play the other game (or play no game at all). I honestly don't see how FFXIV's restriction is any less appropriate/reasonable than WoW's. Neither game is MORE restrictive; they're just restrictive in different ways. It all depends on the type of player you are or you choose to be. FFXIV has no obligation to make everyone happy any more than WoW does.
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#130 Aug 26 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
So in the end you can do both in WoW but you have to give up your name/quests but is that almost nothing compared to the fact that you can't even do it at all in FFXIV?


"Being a no one" is almost nothing? I don't think you will be able to understand how drastic that kind of limitation is.

It's not just about what content you are missing out on.

How can you say "giving up your name is almost nothing"?

I am sad now.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 8:29pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#131 Aug 26 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
"Being a no one" is almost nothing? I don't think you will be able to understand how drastic that kind of limitation is.


How can you be a no one, will your friends quit being your friends if you start to level another character? Some friends =S

But I do see how you don't want your Reputation to go away, but the fact is that you have a reputation as a CLASS_X and not a CLASS_Y.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#132 Aug 26 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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275 posts
Quote:
Well then the problem is that people don't want a new character, which I can understand that completely. However the fact is that you can in essence do both vertical and horizontal growth as far as you want, but only on your account and server. In FFXIV you can only do horizontal growth as far as you want but are limited in vertical growth.

So in the end you can do both in WoW but you have to give up your name/quests but is that almost nothing compared to the fact that you can't even do it at all in FFXIV?


Ah, I see what you are saying here. And that makes good sense, and in a way is very true. Though nothing is limiting anyone from reaching their vertical max in FFXIV. They just can't do it as quickly as they want to. Just like WoW players can't reach their horizontal max using the character they want to.
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#133 Aug 26 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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How can you be a no one, will your friends quit being your friends if you start to level another character? Some friends =S

But I do see how you don't want your Reputation to go away, but the fact is that you have a reputation as a CLASS_X and not a CLASS_Y.


I want to have my reputation as a CHARACTER_X, and everything it does.

I don't want to lose my reputation and "status" in the game world just because I "changed" classes.

If it was all about friends, I wouldn't play MMO's. There are better games to be played with just friends. I want to be a part of the world too.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 8:35pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#134 Aug 26 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Ah, I see what you are saying here. And that makes good sense, and in a way is very true. Though nothing is limiting anyone from reaching their vertical max in FFXIV. They just can't do it as quickly as they want to. Just like WoW players can't reach their horizontal max using the character they want to.


Yeah, I feel that technically, as much as I hate to say this, WoW is a better game when it comes to options.

You can level as far as you want in one class, and if you want to do another you can, with what I consider a small price (especially since it is free to have as many characters as you want).

Even FFXIV you can level as many classes at once, but are limited to how far you can do it.

____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#135 Aug 26 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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I'm gonna steal a post [by Rfolkker] from the other thread which mostly mirrored my thoughts on this:

Quote:
Ok, I think people are still missing the point of what they are doing. They are not saying that you have 8 hours a week of solid play per character. They are saying you have a maximum experience you can get in an 8 hour window. While this window is fixed, it's duration is not, and therefore is scalable to playing habits. I would go out on a limb and say that 99% of American players (with the exception of my nephew, and a few others... from the sound of it on this forum) that will *NEVER* hit this.

As stated in the response to the American lead panic, it was stated quite plainly that the reason that this was even seen was that the amount of experience gained in 8 hours was attainable MUCH earlier.

So, yes, casual players can run into this just as much as die hard players, but it sounds like this is targeting is more specifically people who find exploits like the Smn burn party, or any burn party for that matter. It prevents people from getting more experience in that window.

So, you play 8 hours and are getting an obscene amount of experience, and you notice you are getting surplus exp. You stop playing, and start up the next day. Your surplus drops by it's prescribed amount, and you now have another 8 hours to go at the same pace until you take a new penalty.

Yes this will force some people (the 1% that insist on optimized party and dps, ussually friends who have formed ultimate parties). And if you see you are getting a surplus, why would you intentionally continue and force yourself down to 10% exp gain...

Anyways, yes, this will affect people in this forum. And yes, I am happy with it. One of the reasons I left XI was because of my friends doing SMN burn parties. I had a lvl 20 smn and refused to take advantage of something so horribly broken that someone could get 60k exp in 8 hours. I mean seriously... That is just wrong.

Based on the description, it will not be possible for pick-up parties from hitting this. And it will be unlikely that precision parties will hit it (which is my guess what the changes will be, to put it at the near end of exp exploits).

But, yeah, I agree with the SE crew, people don't seem to understand it, and are angry about something that people were angry didn't exist (or something along that lines).

While I wouldn't call this a feature of the game, as a developer can see how and why they would do something like this. It is not designed to limit your time at the game, it is intended to prevent you from destroying the system, or off-setting the balance. simliar to the change in XI that had everyone up in arms for sending 1 million + gil through the mog houses. While there were very *FEW* instances of people legitimately doing this, most people were using it as a means of buying gil.

And as someone quoted Ben Franklin earlier, keep in mind, the game is their liberty, not ours. They are the ones who have to choose, not us. When you purchase a product, you are the consumer, they are the provider. As such, it is a dictatorial environment. This is the reason we have monopoly laws. Given the dictatorial nature of business, without laws preventing businesses from attaining ultimate power, your influence on them would be lost. However, in this case, you have influence. However, without rational response and thought behind your efforts, and an understanding of what is being conveyed, your response is lost in a sea of confusion and anger.

This functionality can only offend people for 1 of 3 reasons: 1) You are looking for a way to exploit experience, and feel jaded that they would dare prevent you; 2) You have no faith in others ability to judge the line between die-hard and exploitative; 3) You are an idiot.

With that being said, here are the references for my understanding of the functionality (since somehow I am apparently understanding this differently than others).

You can gain 8 hours worth of exp, before a gradual declination:
Then, using that supposed amount, we made it so you can earn 8 hours worth of skill points and experience at 100% of this rate. The subsequent 7 hours' worth will gradually see one's attainable skill points and experience points fall to 0.

It resets fully after 1 week:
The limitation on the amount of points you can attain is set on a weekly timer. Once it passes a week since you first began leveling a particular skill, the limitation resets to zero. After it resets, it will come into effect again once you begin work on that skill once more.

The amount is based on a linear 8 hour window (aka ~8 hours later you can start back up with a reduced surplus for 8 more hours, assuming the delineation is in fact 8 hours... which they actually do not identify)
Even if you are hit with this limitation during a one-week period, its detrimental effects decrease if you do not level that particular class. You can even recover back to the full 100% rate of point acquisition, so you do not always have to wait the full week for the limitations to go away.

The concern is exploited exp:
Surplus points currently have no use. However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system. We want to take our time and thoroughly investigate this issue.
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I haven't payed taxes in four years! I'm not gettin busted by a ssamwich! ><
#136 Aug 26 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Yeah, I feel that technically, as much as I hate to say this, WoW is a better game when it comes to options.


According to your subjective "name means nothing" policy...

Which is still as subjective as it gets.

I understand that to you, WoW is a better game when it comes to options. This was clear from the start.

And still, no matter what, you are not playing class X on race Y. You also are not going to start on race X in city Y.

Let's not forget the lack of options regarding the horizontal growth.

Sure, you can be a Mage and a Priest, but good luck mixing mage abilities with your priest. Leveling your mage does not help your priest in any way.





Edited, Aug 26th 2010 8:41pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#137 Aug 26 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
According to your subjective "name means nothing" policy...

Which is still as subjective as it gets.

I understand that to you, WoW is a better game when it comes to options. This was clear from the start.


I never said names mean nothing. I just said that is the price you have to pay if you want to level as many classes as you want in WoW.

Also when it comes to leveling as many jobs as you want and as far as you want WoW *technically* lets you do this, however FFXIV limits how far you can level one class in a time period and therefore mandates that you level another class.

What was clear from the start? That WoW allowed you to level as many jobs as you want as far as you want for as long as you wanted?

Quote:
Sure, you can be a Mage and a Priest, but good luck mixing mage abilities with your priest. Leveling your mage does not help your priest in any way.


I never said that you could mix classes in WoW, I just said that you could level as many jobs as you want as far as you want and for as long as you want.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:42pm by deathly809
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#138 Aug 26 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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1,636 posts
No game should have limitations like this. Its another way they are using to force by way of duress people into playing multiple classes, or run out of productive things to do. MMOs have always been flexible with how they let people play. If getting to rank X takes Y hours, I should get to decide when I want to spend those hours. Limiting players to set amounts of progress each week so that casuals can keep up, they may as well just shut down servers outside of key casual friendly playing hours.

I've read alot of good intentions behind the idea, which may or not have been what the devs were going for, but people are going to see this as a punishment for playing alot. This game already has less buzz than WOW:cataclysm or Star wars, it doesnt need to be associated with punishing players.
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#139 Aug 26 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
I never said that you could mix classes in WoW, I just said that you could level as many jobs as you want as far as you want and for as long as you want.


Of course you didn't- that's something for me to point out. A limitation for horizontal growth. Leveling your mage does not help your priest in any way, unlike in XIV where leveling conjurer will surely help your thaumaturge.

WoW does not allow for the type of horizontal progression I am talking about. You can still level your thaumaturge with surplus, horizontally.

At the same time, you don't only lose your name and quests by changing characters- you lose your class as well.

Quote:
Also when it comes to leveling as many jobs as you want and as far as you want WoW *technically* lets you do this, however FFXIV limits how far you can level one class in a time period and therefore mandates that you level another class.


*Technically* FFXIV lets you do this as well, by allowing you to level as many jobs as you want as far as you want. Both games limit different style of progression: WoW limits horizontal growth, FFXIV limits vertical growth.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#140 Aug 26 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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275 posts
Quote:
No game should have limitations like this. Its another way they are using to force by way of duress people into playing multiple classes, or run out of productive things to do. MMOs have always been flexible with how they let people play. If getting to rank X takes Y hours, I should get to decide when I want to spend those hours. Limiting players to set amounts of progress each week so that casuals can keep up, they may as well just shut down servers outside of key casual friendly playing hours.

I've read alot of good intentions behind the idea, which may or not have been what the devs were going for, but people are going to see this as a punishment for playing alot. This game already has less buzz than WOW:cataclysm or Star wars, it doesnt need to be associated with punishing players.


MMO's actually have always had limitations to how they've let people play, as we've just been discussing using WoW as an example. In WoW, we are not allowed to play more than one class per character. In WoW, we are not allowed to play any class we want on any race we want (ex. Orc exists as a race and Paladin exists as a job, but you cannot play an Orc Paladin). In WoW we are only allowed into each raid once per week, no matter how much free playtime we have (so if we need Item X and it happens not to drop or someone else wins it, we have to wait a week before we can try again). That's with raids being the primary way of obtaining high-end gear.
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#141 Aug 26 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'm gonna steal a post [by Rfolkker] from the other thread which mostly mirrored my thoughts on this:


Stealing is bad!

But in all seriousness, I plan on probably playing 5 hours on weekdays min, Saturday and Sunday, probably all day and half the night. That alone already will have me in the surplus. Also another thing is that we don't know if it is a slot that moves, and also what is the cool down speed? It could be that you play X hours start surplus, then you get down to 50% after playing Y more hours. However we don't know if it takes (X+Y) hours, or maybe cX + dY hours, c and d are some constant value, or even X*Y hours before we lose the surplus loss.

Another thing is that they seem to be saying once you use up all your physical XP for a week, then it is done.

I am pretty much wishing they offered more information, since I spent $1k on the game for a new computer.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#142 Aug 26 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
39 posts
So basically, SE is quite happy to let people who pay for the collectors edition of the game to play 1 week before everyone else, but after that you either have to not play a certain job (after getting what SE deems to be the maximum amount of EXP) or just not play till this resets..

Well thats FFXIV taken off pre-order, why would anyone pay a monthly fee to be dictated to how and when to play??
#143 Aug 26 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I don't believe there is the same limitation, you can still play another character as far as you want. If you change you can, you don't even have to farm on a new character either, you can just farm on your high level one and send all the armor,pots,gold,etc... to your new character easily.


But I don't want to play another character. I want one character to adventure with.

It is not the same limitation, but it is just as bad for some people like me who are attached to their character yet want to be able to do everything you can do in the game with it.

The same way you can progress your class horizontally instead of vertically in this system. You don't like it, that's a-okay.

Every game has it's limitations. I hate having to play 2+ characters to experience everything, you hate having to deal with horizontal progression to enhance your class. It's all cool.


It isn't a hard limitation at all. It's a design difference, more akin to comparing jumping or traveling mechanisms. The important thing to understand is that the line of thinking leading to such a comparison is deeply flawed. By your own admission, they are Not the same animal.

And I don't think anyone here debates the value in horizontal progression. You're debating with mostly FFXI veterans, who are well versed in using the abilities of other jobs to enhance their own. But your thinking is, again, flawed. How many jobs do you think would be needed to construct an "Ideal" main? and would they all need to be at equal levels? This deesign philosophy actually restricts freedom to select and experiment with an ideal build on a main job. The stance that this is actually beneficial to the player in building his character is an arguement for arguements sake. Nothing about this system allows for better horizontal progression options thanb without it. It simply slows everything, and forces choices the player would normally not make.

Quote:
Quote:
An insane comparison. WoW's character system doesn't prevent you from leveling any job you wish, in any order you wish, at any rate you wish.


Oh, where is this class change NPC?! I think I need to resubscribe


Snide remarks aside, you know what I'm saying is true. You know that the separate job system didn't stop you from advancing any job you wished on a different toon. The inclusion of it in this debate is way off topic and an utter waster of time. Frankly, I'd think if you truly found merit in this system, you could defend it with facts, not by trying to compare apples and oranges, while hoping no one noticed...

Quote:
Quote:
What I'm hearing is "I don't think it will affect me, so everyone complaining plays too much." And it's plain to see that not everyone wants to play the same way. That's kind of the essence of the genre...


"Every game must cater to everyone."
Sorry, it does not work that way.


Who said that? That's right, you did. Let's not put words in each other's mouths. Sticking to the topic and jthe facts will do very nicely, TYVM.

Who do you think is trying to cater to the hardcore and casual markets? Oh yeah. SE. Sorry, but your indifference to every playstyle but your own doesn't negate them. MMOs that don't work with different types of people with different interests, schedules, playstyles, and commitment levels don't work very long. It's clear you don't want to recognize that, but I can hope SE does...

#144 Aug 26 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Well thats FFXIV taken off pre-order, why would anyone pay a monthly fee to be dictated to how and when to play??


The same reason people pay a monthly fee to be dictated how and when to play in every other MMO on the market.
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#145 Aug 26 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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I think a lot of you are really being a bunch of drama queens about this. From my impression of the information they've given us about how this will function in normal gameplay compared with Beta 3, I don't think that most people here will ever reach surplus under normal conditions.

If threshold numbers can recover before reaching surplus, than I'm quite certain of this. Sure most of us have had play sessions well longer than 8 hours, but how often will you be in an active XP party for more than five hours straight? and how often after said party do you feel the need to immediately join another party with the same job, or continue to XP that job solo? Most likely, by the time your XPing that job again, your numbers will be reset. In my opinion, this will only ever effect people using an exploit, or just very excessively grinding.

I could very well be wrong, but I think that since no one has ever seen this system functioning as intended, that you could all stop being such drama queens and stop QQing for just five minutes, or until we see how it pans out in the open beta within a week or so.
____________________________
Mikey- server Ramuh
I haven't payed taxes in four years! I'm not gettin busted by a ssamwich! ><
#146 Aug 26 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
39 posts
Oh yes i forgot that in WoW you're exp eventually starts to decline after playing for too long.. oh wait.. no it doesnt

Yes they have a wait time on raids etc but so does FFXI, but neither limit you on how long you can kill things for more than 0exp



Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:04pm by Darkblu
#147 Aug 26 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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To all of you who support Surplus exp, can I ask you a question?

Before you knew about surplus, were you asking/demanding/screaming for such a feature? Were you upset that you knew no such thing of Surplus exp?

I'll take a stab at answering on your behalf. NO!

So since you guys didn't, and no need lie, why stand against the clear majority when the system is not needed? What are you going to gain from it? Why not support the majority of players who feel this may impact a core part of how we play these games?

Not trying to start a huge argument, I just want some rational answers from folks who support it.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:05pm by KnocturnalOne
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FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#148 Aug 26 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
It still does not halt it. It only turns it to a horizontal growth.

The game prevents me from playing all classes I choose on the character I choose. Completely.

Different limitation, same result. Both can be avoided but it's not a satisfactory solution for many.


I don't believe there is the same limitation, you can still play another character as far as you want. If you change you can, you don't even have to farm on a new character either, you can just farm on your high level one and send all the armor,pots,gold,etc... to your new character easily.

The only things that you have to do on your new character are items you cannot trade and quests.


but I don't want to redo anything, and I don't want to have to play with a different character - and I don't want to have to be a specific race. So I don't play the game, because it doesn't suit me. It is just that simple. If you want to play a game where you just grind one class all day and all night 95% of MMOs will give you that experience. If SE doesn't want to give you that experience you either need to deal with it or vote with your dollars and play time.

There are limits in all games.


Of course there are. Let's not forget though, this system is far from finalized and reaction to the community are essential to allow the developers to gauge our interests. Your post seems to want everyone to stop complaining about it and not play. That's not what SE wants. They Want to hear from the community so they can make an experience that the most people possible can enjoy. This isn't anything like WoW, where a design difference like 1 toon= 1 job is already permanently entrenched. We're talking about a Beta system...

If you don't like hearing the opposing view, don't open the thread. But don't expect people to so easily forget about a game they've awaited for years. If there's a chance of getting this fixed, we're gonna take it. And it starts by making our opinions public in forums that SE is known to monitor.
#149 Aug 26 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The same reason people pay a monthly fee to be dictated how and when to play in every other MMO on the market.


I think he didn't word it correctly, I think he means:

"Which job I can choose to play and when I am allowed to play it"
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#150 Aug 26 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Snide remarks aside, you know what I'm saying is true. You know that the separate job system didn't stop you from advancing any job you wished on a different toon. The inclusion of it in this debate is way off topic and an utter waster of time. Frankly, I'd think if you truly found merit in this system, you could defend it with facts, not by trying to compare apples and oranges, while hoping no one noticed...


What you're saying is true. However, for some people the thought of having to play a different character is just as detestable as the thought of having to play a different class. I played WoW, and I dealt with it. I didn't like the fact that I had to switch toons, and not simply because I had to change my name and appearance. There were times when I certainly felt "penalized" because in order for me to level that second toon I had to gain the same reputation all over again that I had already gained on my first toon. I had to pay another 5000 gold to get my Artisan flying/cold weather flying/epic flying mount that I had already gained on my first toon. All because I just wanted to try another class. They didn't limit my EXP, but it still sure felt like punishment.
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#151 Aug 26 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think a lot of you are really being a bunch of drama queens about this. From my impression of the information they've given us about how this will function in normal gameplay compared with Beta 3, I don't think that most people here will ever reach surplus under normal conditions.


But what are normal conditions? I want to make sure SE knows that I don't want to ever hit this. Also if not many people reach the cap then why have it at all?

Quote:
If threshold numbers can recover before reaching surplus, than I'm quite certain of this. Sure most of us have had play sessions well longer than 8 hours, but how often will you be in an active XP party for more than five hours straight? and how often after said party do you feel the need to immediately join another party with the same job, or continue to XP that job solo? Most likely, by the time your XPing that job again, your numbers will be reset. In my opinion, this will only ever effect people using an exploit, or just very excessively grinding.


I was in a party for over 5 hours straight, then I went to another one right after that. I didn't change from RDM in FFXI from level 20 to 70. After that I did just to level something else to beat Maat.

Quote:
I could very well be wrong, but I think that since no one has ever seen this system functioning as intended, that you could all stop being such drama queens and stop QQing for just five minutes, or until we see how it pans out in the open beta within a week or so.


I like that you admit you can be wrong, that is what is wrong with a lot of people, some don't want to admit that they can be wrong, **** even I can be wrong. But the thing about the complaining is that I don't want to not complain and then it turns out like total crap and I hate it and cancel, or worse a lot of people hate it and cancel. I really want this game to be amazing, and if it is anything like what they are saying now then it won't be.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
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