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#152 Aug 26 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It isn't a hard limitation at all.


Then tell me how can I change a class on one character. Please.

Quote:
Who do you think is trying to cater to the hardcore and casual markets? Oh yeah. SE. Sorry


And as for how does this fact suddenly make it so they are catering to "everyone", please enlighten me.

Quote:
Before you knew about surplus, were you asking/demanding/screaming for such a feature? Were you upset that you knew no such thing of Surplus exp?


Before you knew about grind, were you asking/demanding/screaming for such a feature? No.

Did you realize that some unpleasant things are necessary in MMO's and would rather take this limitation than some other limitation? Yes.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 9:13pm by Hyanmen
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#153 Aug 26 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think he didn't word it correctly, I think he means:

"Which job I can choose to play and when I am allowed to play it"


If that's the type of restriction that grinds his gears, then of course he's more than welcome not to pay. But that's just it, it's the TYPE of restriction that's game-specific. Not the concept of restriction as a whole. People are bad-mouthing FFXIV as if it restricts players when other MMOs do not. That's downright false. This just so happens to be the type of restriction that is unappealing to these players and they ignore the fact that other MMOs have different restrictions that are equally unappealing to different players. It's a "ME ME ME" problem and a "YOU YOU YOU" accusation. It makes more sense (to me) to argue "Well, this isn't the game for me." than "This game is terrible!"
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#154 Aug 26 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Deathly809
Quote:
Also another thing is that we don't know if it is a slot that moves, and also what is the cool down speed? It could be that you play X hours start surplus, then you get down to 50% after playing Y more hours. However we don't know if it takes (X+Y) hours, or maybe cX + dY hours, c and d are some constant value, or even X*Y hours before we lose the surplus loss.


Agreed. We don't know exactly how the recovery works, and this could be the determining factor in how many people actually ever see surplus.
Quote:

Another thing is that they seem to be saying once you use up all your physical XP for a week, then it is done.


From what they've said, it seems that it will be harder to recover since all game activities produce phy-exp. But it was never said that hey don't recover. Obviously, in most cases noone would recover this during gameplay, but I think it will recover while you're logged off.
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#155 Aug 26 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kaelia88 wrote:

What you're saying is true. However, for some people the thought of having to play a different character is just as detestable as the thought of having to play a different class. I played WoW, and I dealt with it. I didn't like the fact that I had to switch toons, and not simply because I had to change my name and appearance. There were times when I certainly felt "penalized" because in order for me to level that second toon I had to gain the same reputation all over again that I had already gained on my first toon. I had to pay another 5000 gold to get my Artisan flying/cold weather flying/epic flying mount that I had already gained on my first toon. All because I just wanted to try another class. They didn't limit my EXP, but it still sure felt like punishment.


I absolutely agree that it is a design difference that not everyone, including me, liked as much as the system found in XI, and I'm fine with anyone starting up a thread to rant about it. I'm simply not gonna watch people try to derail this thread with terrible comparisons that do zilch to further This thread's topic.
#156 Aug 26 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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If that's the type of restriction that grinds his gears, then of course he's more than welcome not to pay. But that's just it, it's the TYPE of restriction that's game-specific. Not the concept of restriction as a whole. People are bad-mouthing FFXIV as if it restricts players when other MMOs do not. That's downright false. This just so happens to be the type of restriction that is unappealing to these players and they ignore the fact that other MMOs have different restrictions that are equally unappealing to different players. It's a "ME ME ME" problem and a "YOU YOU YOU" accusation. It makes more sense (to me) to argue "Well, this isn't the game for me." than "This game is terrible!"


I agree completely. All MMOS games have limitations on what you can do. The only problem I have is that this limits players for no really defend-able reason (Opinion). They say a majority of players are casual, then why need to limit hardcores, casuals will have plenty of people to play with. If they have a majority of hardcores, why punish the majority?

It just makes no sense to me why they have it. The reasons always seem to end up being:

Them:
If you don't like it then don't play, I have no problem with it
Me:
If it does not effect you either way then why do you care if it is removed

Them:
More than likely no one will see it
Me:
Then why is it there??

Them:
Stops RMT
Me: How? Farming is level independent and if you need something that you can farm at your level them expect 20 RMT farming it

Them:
Keeps player level gaps small
Me: Sure as long as you are not on the PS3, and if it does that then in one case it harms the minority (hardcore) while not benefiting the casual, but in the other case it harms the majority (hardcore) while catering to a minority.

There are probably more but I can't remember haha.
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#157 Aug 26 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Could you twist it that way? Sure. But you'd be trying very hard to turn a positive thing into a negative one.

That argument came and a long time ago. The system is fairly standard now, and the average person doesn't have any issue with it. Just sayin'.


Is it positive that such system is needed to bring the grind into acceptable level for casuals? I don't think so.

Modern MMO's don't realize the need for this kind of system, because they try to imitate WoW and WoW is the only game that can make it work- because they can largely ignore a demographic and get away with it.

MMO's die because of various things, and this is one of them, that applies to universally every MMO.

First leaves the hardcore, those who are the base of your playerbase. Then leaves the casuals, later on but inevitably so. And no more casuals join in after that, if you don't have massive marketing resources and great PR department. Leaving behind only a dying game that goes F2P after a while.


I'm afraid you've completely lost me. I don't see how you can possibly back up any of those claims, and I'm not buying that the surplus/fatigue system offers any sort of remedy to them, regardless. Its already done enough harm to the game....it needs to be put down.
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#158 Aug 26 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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To all of you who support Surplus exp, can I ask you a question?

Before you knew about surplus, were you asking/demanding/screaming for such a feature? Were you upset that you knew no such thing of Surplus exp?

I'll take a stab at answering on your behalf. NO!

So since you guys didn't, and no need lie, why stand against the clear majority when the system is not needed? What are you going to gain from it? Why not support the majority of players who feel this may impact a core part of how we play these games?

Not trying to start a huge argument, I just want some rational answers from folks who support it.


Well, I don't support surplus EXP, but I'm one of the people who it won't effect. However, that's not because I am a casual player. Quite the opposite. I will likely be playing FFXIV anywhere from 28-34 hours per week. If I played FFXIV the way I played FFXI, it certainly would affect me, as I leveled 7 jobs to 75 in FFXI, and I did so by grinding them one at a time. However, I'm opting to CHANGE my playSTYLE (without changing my playTIME) in order to still enjoy my time running around Eorzea. I understand not everyone is willing to do that, and that's why I do NOT in fact support the surplus system whatsoever, nor do I like it whatsoever. Of course I believe that people should have freedom to do what they please (but FFXIV is not the only game to limit freedom in some way, every MMORPG limits freedom in its own way). I just am not going to be affected by the surplus, because I'm choosing to adapt.
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#159 Aug 26 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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I'm afraid you've completely lost me. I don't see how you can possibly back up any of those claims, and I'm not buying that the surplus/fatigue system offers any sort of remedy to them, regardless. Its already done enough harm to the game....it needs to be put down.


Yeah I agree, I really try to make logical statements from what I know. But predicting what massive amounts of players do is really not my thing.

Even though if you make the assumption:
Hardcore players play one class to max level, with minor deviations along the way to get neat abilities

Then you could make an assumption that:
A majority of hardcore players will not have fun, and therefore have a higher percentage of quitting.

I am not sure how many casuals will play, that will be seen on game day.
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#160 Aug 26 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
They say a majority of players are casual, then why need to limit hardcores


Because they want both groups to keep playing the game.

If they don't do this, all hardcore population leaves a while after release because they'll run out of stuff to do and fast.

If they do this, maybe 20-30% leave but the remaining population will keep playing much longer, because SE has time to get ahead of them.
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#161 Aug 26 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm afraid you've completely lost me. I don't see how you can possibly back up any of those claims, and I'm not buying that the surplus/fatigue system offers any sort of remedy to them, regardless. Its already done enough harm to the game....it needs to be put down.


Look at any past MMO.

Most of them boil down to the same result: There is not enough stuff to do. Developers didn't get ahead.

Casuals quit when there's nothing to do. Hardcore quit when there's nothing to do.

It's not rocket science.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#162 Aug 26 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It isn't a hard limitation at all.


Then tell me how can I change a class on one character. Please.


Holy Cow you're an obstinate one aren't you? I hoped you would've understood by now that by saying the silly WoW toon thing wasn't a Hard Limitation on your ability to level any job at any rate... by selecting another toon. Other people on here could understand that easily. Did I really have to explain that to you? I guess I did. Now, would you like to discuss the topic or are you too far gone down this derail attempt to get back to the subject?

Quote:
Quote:
Who do you think is trying to cater to the hardcore and casual markets? Oh yeah. SE. Sorry


And as for how does this fact suddenly make it so they are catering to "everyone", please enlighten me.


Why should I have to enlighten you about something YOU said, not me. You made the "everyone" statement, remember? I asked you not to put words in my mouth, remember? Now you want me to take up defending your silly statements? Pass. I'll leave it to you to justify it. And, again, you're dodging the topic.

Quote:
Quote:
Before you knew about surplus, were you asking/demanding/screaming for such a feature? Were you upset that you knew no such thing of Surplus exp?


Before you knew about grind, were you asking/demanding/screaming for such a feature? No.

Did you realize that some unpleasant things are necessary in MMO's and would rather take this limitation than some other limitation? Yes.


Again, You are the one making the assumption that removing this penalty would require an equally limiting move, instead of offering up rested bonus or another less invasive balance. SE never said that, you did. If you want to make that argument, find a quote from a developer to back you. Otherwise it means nothing.



Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:29pm by ascorbic
#163 Aug 26 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Because they want both groups to keep playing the game.

If they don't do this, all hardcore population leaves a while after release because they'll run out of stuff to do and fast.

If they do this, maybe 20-30% leave but the remaining population will keep playing much longer, because SE has time to get ahead of them.


But who really knows that? They might have end game done, they might not. If they run ahead and finish everything before they can get the end game done/polished then I doubt they will quit, just look at cataclysm, I know crap loads of people who will still play WoW even though they don't have anything new to do while waiting on that.

Also 20%-30% could be 70%-80% or 90%-100%. We just don't know how bad this might be. I personally feel that less people will leave if they rush to end game than being limited.

Also as a last thought, you forget about farming, it could take forever to farm the stuff for needed equipment or end game materials. WoW is casual and you still get to farm your life away at end game.
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#164 Aug 26 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I agree completely. All MMOS games have limitations on what you can do. The only problem I have is that this limits players for no really defend-able reason (Opinion). They say a majority of players are casual, then why need to limit hardcores, casuals will have plenty of people to play with. If they have a majority of hardcores, why punish the majority?

It just makes no sense to me why they have it. The reasons always seem to end up being:

Them:
If you don't like it then don't play, I have no problem with it
Me:
If it does not effect you either way then why do you care if it is removed

Them:
More than likely no one will see it
Me:
Then why is it there??

Them:
Stops RMT
Me: How? Farming is level independent and if you need something that you can farm at your level them expect 20 RMT farming it

Them:
Keeps player level gaps small
Me: Sure as long as you are not on the PS3, and if it does that then in one case it harms the minority (hardcore) while not benefiting the casual, but in the other case it harms the majority (hardcore) while catering to a minority.

There are probably more but I can't remember haha.


Oh, for sure. I don't disagree at all with any of your "Me:" arguments. I don't like or approve of this system any more than any of the people who are on fire against it. I don't even think it should exist. It's just some of the attitudes and arguments that I don't particularly like. I do wish that players could grind up their one job like they did in FFXI. I really do. But as it stands right now, that won't be possible. So more realistically, I wish that others besides me could choose to adapt rather than not try at all. People could still have so much fun. That's what I really want. :(
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#165 Aug 26 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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MMO's actually have always had limitations to how they've let people play, as we've just been discussing using WoW as an example. In WoW, we are not allowed to play more than one class per character. In WoW, we are not allowed to play any class we want on any race we want (ex. Orc exists as a race and Paladin exists as a job, but you cannot play an Orc Paladin). In WoW we are only allowed into each raid once per week, no matter how much free playtime we have (so if we need Item X and it happens not to drop or someone else wins it, we have to wait a week before we can try again). That's with raids being the primary way of obtaining high-end gear.


I don't think its the same thing at all. Those are restrictions in the game itself. WoW's nature of quest based exp doesnt favor multiple classes on one character, but yes it does suck when its time to find new gear, attunements etc for other classes. But thats the way it is. I think you missed my point, thinking a game has ZERO limitations is absurd, they are a necessary part of gameplay.

By limitation regarding 14, is that I cant do what i could do just fine yesterday. This is in the same vein as the parental lock features you can put on your kid's game, only the devs have imposed it on us.
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#166 Aug 26 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Holy Cow you're an obstinate one aren't you? I hoped you would've understood by now that by saying the silly WoW toon thing wasn't a Hard Limitation on your ability to level any job at any rate... by selecting another toon. Other people on here could understand that easily. Did I really have to explain that to you? I guess I did. Now, would you like to discuss the topic or are you too far gone down this derail attempt to get back to the subject?


Yes, I understand that it is not a hard limitation in the narrow scope you want to discuss about it.

Let's not talk about anything that makes your points invalid from now on, took me a while to catch up. Sorry.

Quote:
Again, You are the one making the assumption that removing this penalty would require an equally limiting move, instead of offering up rested bonus or another less invasive balance.


I already explained it to you, in detail. I don't want to repeat myself more than I have to.

Rested bonus = more grind. If you do not understand why, you will be ignorant on the subject forever. It is all in this thread.

Quote:
But who really knows that? They might have end game done, they might not


I trust that they know better than you. Y'know, with the data gained from FFXI and all.

All I know is, that they are not putting this system in place for no reason.

I also know that when XI came out, they complained that players level too fast for their liking.

1+1.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 9:35pm by Hyanmen
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#167 Aug 26 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Them:
More than likely no one will see it
Me:
Then why is it there??



For one, it will prevent all possible leveling exploits [such as astral burns, for example] in one fell swoop. Instead of taking the time and resources to deal with each of these individually, and probably each in ways that can potentially **** people off even more.

It seems that they are trying to nip many of these types of problems in the bud. A lot of what they're trying might not work, but I can see how it's still worth trying as most of what they're implementing in this regard is not nearly as hard to swallow, or as disruptive to the gameworld as the patchwork solutions they would enact after the fact. [Basically the kinds of scenarios that were very common in FFXI].
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#168 Aug 26 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, for sure. I don't disagree at all with any of your "Me:" arguments. I don't like or approve of this system any more than any of the people who are on fire against it. I don't even think it should exist. It's just some of the attitudes and arguments that I don't particularly like. I do wish that players could grind up their one job like they did in FFXI. I really do. But as it stands right now, that won't be possible. So more realistically, I wish that others besides me could choose to adapt rather than not try at all. People could still have so much fun. That's what I really want. :(


I would love to adapt, but I never leveled really anything more than RDM in FFXI, and I LOVED that. I hated leveling some of the other jobs but some were neat. I never adapted to the play style on there, which was:

At Level L on Job J you need equipment E with subjob S and food F. I refused, and I am glad I did. I didn't have to sit there for hours and farm for crap I didn't want to get or buy food I felt was not really needed. I adapted to the system, however on XIV I feel like I cannot adapt, I feel like I am boxed in a corner and MUST do X, Y, Z.

I agree on your attitudes part, it is still a game but for some people it is a a game you had to spend $800 for a new computer to play so it has kinda moved beyond just a game at this point.

I just hope in the end everything turns out great and we all have cake and candy.
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#169 Aug 26 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Why should I have to enlighten you about something YOU said, not me. You made the "everyone" statement, remember? I asked you not to put words in my mouth, remember? Now you want me to take up defending your silly statements? Pass. I'll leave it to you to justify it. And, again, you're dodging the topic.


This is what I said on page 2:

I'm not telling you to like this system, I'm trying to tell you that no game is good for everyone out there.

After that, I can only find the original post you quoted.

I can not access your imagination, so please tell me where I said that. On page 5 perhaps?
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#170 Aug 26 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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/sigh

SE really does know how to throw a spanner in the works right before release.

Wonder what their next trick is?

SE have made so now you log in and we will tell you what to do with big bold letters and brightly coloured targets, thus making the game even more casual freindly, if you decide you don't want to do what we say, we will take the controller from you and send you to bed without and supper. and have a GM play it for you.

If i wanted 0 exp for a week, I would live in the real world, oh wait your making me do that while you take my cash

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#171 Aug 26 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Kaelia88 wrote:

Oh, for sure. I don't disagree at all with any of your "Me:" arguments. I don't like or approve of this system any more than any of the people who are on fire against it. I don't even think it should exist. It's just some of the attitudes and arguments that I don't particularly like. I do wish that players could grind up their one job like they did in FFXI. I really do. But as it stands right now, that won't be possible. So more realistically, I wish that others besides me could choose to adapt rather than not try at all. People could still have so much fun. That's what I really want. :(


That's a commendable way of looking at it. And between the open beta and early release, I'd imagine most people are still gonna see what exactly this system is about for themselves. Most people aren't going to go with artificial constraints put on their play time. Many have an almost reflexive revulsion to paying for an MMO that won't let them play at their own pace. At this point, I think SE has shown a lot more "flexibility" regarding this issue than much of the player base is likely to, and that's exactly why you're seeing people speak up now. SE hardly seems married to the idea of keeping the system intact, if at all. So why not give it the college try and try to get it eliminated or heavily modified before money starts changing hands? I think that's the best possible outcome.
#172 Aug 26 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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I would love to adapt, but I never leveled really anything more than RDM in FFXI, and I LOVED that. I hated leveling some of the other jobs but some were neat. I never adapted to the play style on there, which was:

At Level L on Job J you need equipment E with subjob S and food F. I refused, and I am glad I did. I didn't have to sit there for hours and farm for crap I didn't want to get or buy food I felt was not really needed. I adapted to the system, however on XIV I feel like I cannot adapt, I feel like I am boxed in a corner and MUST do X, Y, Z.


I know it's not ideal, but worst case scenario (in your situation, assuming you play one class as you did in FFXI) is that you'll only really have to deal with surplus EXP once. If you are the type of person who wants to have abilities from other classes for your "RDM," maybe spending small time doing that could alleviate some of the stress of that one time you have to deal with EXP woes. And in the end it really is only a minority of your game experience. (I'm saying that based on the assumption that you played until endgame on your RDM, and your entire experience was not simply leveling.) Again, I know it's not ideal, but I hope you can still find a way to have a good time, even if you have to complain a bit at the start. :(
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#173 Aug 26 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Kaelia88 wrote:
Quote:
I would love to adapt, but I never leveled really anything more than RDM in FFXI, and I LOVED that. I hated leveling some of the other jobs but some were neat. I never adapted to the play style on there, which was:

At Level L on Job J you need equipment E with subjob S and food F. I refused, and I am glad I did. I didn't have to sit there for hours and farm for crap I didn't want to get or buy food I felt was not really needed. I adapted to the system, however on XIV I feel like I cannot adapt, I feel like I am boxed in a corner and MUST do X, Y, Z.


I know it's not ideal, but worst case scenario (in your situation, assuming you play one class as you did in FFXI) is that you'll only really have to deal with surplus EXP once. If you are the type of person who wants to have abilities from other classes for your "RDM," maybe spending small time doing that could alleviate some of the stress of that one time you have to deal with EXP woes. And in the end it really is only a minority of your game experience. (I'm saying that based on the assumption that you played until endgame on your RDM, and your entire experience was not simply leveling.) Again, I know it's not ideal, but I hope you can still find a way to have a good time, even if you have to complain a bit at the start. :(


Why have it at all?
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#174 Aug 26 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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But yeah, this is the first time I've seen community act together and beg SE to add more grind to this game- it's almost great to see this kind of cooperation. Too bad grass isn't greener on the other side, which you will realize if they scrap this system.
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#175 Aug 26 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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deathly809 wrote:
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Oh, for sure. I don't disagree at all with any of your "Me:" arguments. I don't like or approve of this system any more than any of the people who are on fire against it. I don't even think it should exist. It's just some of the attitudes and arguments that I don't particularly like. I do wish that players could grind up their one job like they did in FFXI. I really do. But as it stands right now, that won't be possible. So more realistically, I wish that others besides me could choose to adapt rather than not try at all. People could still have so much fun. That's what I really want. :(


I would love to adapt, but I never leveled really anything more than RDM in FFXI, and I LOVED that. I hated leveling some of the other jobs but some were neat. I never adapted to the play style on there, which was:

At Level L on Job J you need equipment E with subjob S and food F. I refused, and I am glad I did. I didn't have to sit there for hours and farm for crap I didn't want to get or buy food I felt was not really needed. I adapted to the system, however on XIV I feel like I cannot adapt, I feel like I am boxed in a corner and MUST do X, Y, Z.

I agree on your attitudes part, it is still a game but for some people it is a a game you had to spend $800 for a new computer to play so it has kinda moved beyond just a game at this point.

I just hope in the end everything turns out great and we all have cake and candy.
So let me get this straight, you are complaining about the long grinds in FFXI (which was never required, if you didn't want that stuff the game didn't force you to get them), then coming back and complaining that FFXIV won't let you do long grinds?
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#176 Aug 26 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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But yeah, this is the first time I've seen community act together and beg SE to add more grind to this game- it's almost great to see this kind of cooperation. Too bad grass isn't greener on the other side, which you will realize if they scrap this system.


That is speculation; you cannot say it will be worse on the other side.

The way they have it now is that they either harm the majority, or they harm the minority with no gain to the majority.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#177 Aug 26 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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317 posts
Quote:
So let me get this straight, you are complaining about the long grinds in FFXI (which was never required, if you didn't want that stuff the game didn't force you to get them), then coming back and complaining that FFXIV won't let you do long grinds?


Haha no, I loved the long grinds, I just hated how people wanted you to have all this crap and pretty much be cookie cutting the game.

I just hated having to play by their rules of having to have all this crap, that really was not needed.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#178 Aug 26 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
**
275 posts
Quote:
That's a commendable way of looking at it. And between the open beta and early release, I'd imagine most people are still gonna see what exactly this system is about for themselves. Most people aren't going to go with artificial constraints put on their play time. Many have an almost reflexive revulsion to paying for an MMO that won't let them play at their own pace. At this point, I think SE has shown a lot more "flexibility" regarding this issue than much of the player base is likely to, and that's exactly why you're seeing people speak up now. SE hardly seems married to the idea of keeping the system intact, if at all. So why not give it the college try and try to get it eliminated or heavily modified before money starts changing hands? I think that's the best possible outcome.


Good point, and I hope for the sake of everyone who fears a negative experience (if things don't change) that something will give, at the very least enough to make it bearable to them. I would agree that it would be the best possible outcome. I'd love to see everyone be able to log on and have a good time. A positive community was my very favorite thing about FFXI.
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#179 Aug 26 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
**
317 posts
Quote:
Good point, and I hope for the sake of everyone who fears a negative experience (if things don't change) that something will give, at the very least enough to make it bearable to them. I would agree that it would be the best possible outcome. I'd love to see everyone be able to log on and have a good time. A positive community was my very favorite thing about FFXI.


I agree with that, I loved the community of XI. I spent most of time talking during parties and while in town.

I really hope things work out in the end.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#180 Aug 26 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
****
5,587 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
But yeah, this is the first time I've seen community act together and beg SE to add more grind to this game- it's almost great to see this kind of cooperation. Too bad grass isn't greener on the other side, which you will realize if they scrap this system.
"F" that. If I wanted a bunch of grind I'd just continue playing FFXI. FFXIV was announced from the get go that it was going to be geared towards a casual playerbase, one where you can jump in and get things accomplished in short bursts of playing time and wouldn't require long hours of grinding. Now people are complaining that FFXIV is turning out exactly like they said it would?

Sorry that the people with no jobs or school that have 18 hours a day to play are disappointed they can't rocket past everyone else. That was never the intent of the game and I for one am glad to see this implemented in the game. There are plenty of other options in the MMO market to satisfy those cravings. Bravo to SE for trying something original and fresh.
____________________________
Harri
80BLU/80BST/76RNG/75THF/75WHM/60SCH
100+3 Bonecraft
#181 Aug 26 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
**
275 posts
Quote:
Why have it at all?


I don't think we SHOULD have it at all. But as of right now, the situation is that it DOES exist, so my suggestion is based on the truth of the matter at present. (And not based on what I THINK should be the case.) If that makes sense. :)

Edit: Just to be clear. I don't want this system to exist. But it does. So my post was offered to try and address his concerns in a way that addresses the current situation (rather than the ideal situation). A "preparing for the worst" kind of thing.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 6:01pm by Kaelia88
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#182 Aug 26 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
**
317 posts
Quote:
"F" that. If I wanted a bunch of grind I'd just continue playing FFXI. FFXIV was announced from the get go that it was going to be geared towards a casual playerbase, one where you can jump in and get things accomplished in short bursts of playing time and wouldn't require long hours of grinding. Now people are complaining that FFXIV is turning out exactly like they said it would?

Sorry that the people with no jobs or school that have 18 hours a day to play are disappointed they can't rocket past everyone else. That was never the intent of the game and I for one am glad to see this implemented in the game. There are plenty of other options in the MMO market to satisfy those cravings. Bravo to SE for trying something original and fresh.


I don't mind that casuals can play, I am glad they can, but why limit hardcores?
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#183 Aug 26 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
**
296 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Why should I have to enlighten you about something YOU said, not me. You made the "everyone" statement, remember? I asked you not to put words in my mouth, remember? Now you want me to take up defending your silly statements? Pass. I'll leave it to you to justify it. And, again, you're dodging the topic.


This is what I said on page 2:

I'm not telling you to like this system, I'm trying to tell you that no game is good for everyone out there.

After that, I can only find the original post you quoted.

I can not access your imagination, so please tell me where I said that. On page 5 perhaps?
are su

Pages are subjective... since people set thread lengths per page differently.

I said:
Quote:
What I'm hearing is "I don't think it will affect me, so everyone complaining plays too much." And it's plain to see that not everyone wants to play the same way. That's kind of the essence of the genre...


To which you replied:

Quote:
"Every game must cater to everyone."
Sorry, it does not work that way.


And of course, my statement that not everyone plays the same way does Not infer that I think every game should fit every player. My original point was simply that MMOs HAVE to cater to a lot of playstyles, time constraints, and interests to survive.

If you had, for example, an mmo only open 7-10pm EST on monday thursday and saturday, that only provided sword based PVP combat and required 4 hours of mining a week to play... well I'm sure someone would be doing backflips of joy, but you aren't generating a large and stable MMO population that way. That's why MMOs are on 24/7. That's why they come with a bunch of different jobs, and races, annd a bunch of different quest lines, and crafts, and ect. An MMO developer seeks to make a world where many people will come and enjoy.

No game makes every player happy. No one expects that. Look around this forum. Look on other XIV forums. Heck, google FFXIV and check the news. We aren't talking about a few people unhappy with a game they probably had no interest in anyhow. We're talking about a large number of people from all over that were specifically looking forward to this game... the very people SE is Trying to make a game for.

#184 Aug 26 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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5,587 posts
deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
So let me get this straight, you are complaining about the long grinds in FFXI (which was never required, if you didn't want that stuff the game didn't force you to get them), then coming back and complaining that FFXIV won't let you do long grinds?


Haha no, I loved the long grinds, I just hated how people wanted you to have all this crap and pretty much be cookie cutting the game.

I just hated having to play by their rules of having to have all this crap, that really was not needed.
That was more of a playerbase problem than a game design problem. People claimed the loved the grind, but then min/maxed everything as possible to cut down the grind as much as possible. I believe this fatigue system is the exact thing that will help eliminate that snobbish attitude amongst players because the benefit to min/maxing won't be nearly as prevalent or as necessary to hit these fatigue caps.
____________________________
Harri
80BLU/80BST/76RNG/75THF/75WHM/60SCH
100+3 Bonecraft
#185 Aug 26 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
**
317 posts
Quote:
That was more of a playerbase problem than a game design problem. People claimed the loved the grind, but then min/maxed everything as possible to cut down the grind as much as possible. I believe this fatigue system is the exact thing that will help eliminate that snobbish attitude amongst players because the benefit to min/maxing won't be nearly as prevalent or as necessary to hit these fatigue caps.


I never min/maxed anything, I didn't care enough haha. I loved exploring and doing quests and even did some solo.

I don't think anything will make snobs go away =P
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#186 Aug 26 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
5,587 posts
deathly809 wrote:

I don't mind that casuals can play, I am glad they can, but why limit hardcores?
Simple. They don't want a repeat of FFXI, where 5% of the population controlled 95% of the game for the first several years.
____________________________
Harri
80BLU/80BST/76RNG/75THF/75WHM/60SCH
100+3 Bonecraft
#187 Aug 26 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
**
317 posts
Quote:
Simple. They don't want a repeat of FFXI, where 5% of the population controlled 95% of the game for the first several years.


How is that going to stop it? All the hardcores won't be able to level their main, so they will go into crafting, now the casuals will have to compete with hardcores in crafting. Then on top of that RMT will probably find some way to cheat the system and therefore %5 to population will again control the economy.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#188 Aug 26 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
Harri wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
But yeah, this is the first time I've seen community act together and beg SE to add more grind to this game- it's almost great to see this kind of cooperation. Too bad grass isn't greener on the other side, which you will realize if they scrap this system.
"F" that. If I wanted a bunch of grind I'd just continue playing FFXI. FFXIV was announced from the get go that it was going to be geared towards a casual playerbase, one where you can jump in and get things accomplished in short bursts of playing time and wouldn't require long hours of grinding. Now people are complaining that FFXIV is turning out exactly like they said it would?

Sorry that the people with no jobs or school that have 18 hours a day to play are disappointed they can't rocket past everyone else. That was never the intent of the game and I for one am glad to see this implemented in the game. There are plenty of other options in the MMO market to satisfy those cravings. Bravo to SE for trying something original and fresh.


Yes. This. This. So hard. I want to play a game where I am not at a huge disadvantage because I have a life. Every other MMO on the market (except WoW - which I don't like, and even WoW on many levels) is pretty much closed off to casual players. This system will allow hardcore players to get rewarded for their time (with more skills/jobs/crafts etc) but without creating a situation where someone like me is lfp but I can't get a party because I haven't maxed my physical level.

If there is no system like this - then people who play 10 hours a day will hit 50 physical level in the first two weeks and people who don't have 50 physical level won't be welcome in parties.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#189 Aug 26 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
31 posts
this system will basically make it the same. the people with multiple jobs at high level will control the economy, the people who work together. the only thing is instead of encountering their evils at level 75 you will meet them and deal with them everyday.

high levels made things cheaper in ffxi, except the things they wanted from you.

how is having everyone at level 40 going to reduce the cost of ochiudos kote, its now more valuable.
everyone needing the same str rings
no high level crafters to make items a lot easier for low levels? well then that low level craft item is going to be expensive

the means of curbing the hardcores controlling the game are not based on EXP in one class.

i played beta, they gave you money by doing leves, the end result is casual players gave all thier money to hardcore people who figured out the recipes, knew how to get it, and had leveled the multiple crafts required to get that item. people paid 80k to get a 22 level wand, and 22k to get a level 8 wand. people paid 60k for a level 13 knuckle. those hardcores just took all the money from the casuals, and can use that to better control the economy. It had nothing to do with going past level 20 in anyone discipline to do this.
#190 Aug 26 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
**
317 posts
I have decided the entire argument is this:

Casuals:
I don't want to be left behind

Hardcores:
I don't want to be held back

____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#191 Aug 26 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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****
5,587 posts
deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
Simple. They don't want a repeat of FFXI, where 5% of the population controlled 95% of the game for the first several years.


How is that going to stop it? All the hardcores won't be able to level their main, so they will go into crafting, now the casuals will have to compete with hardcores in crafting. Then on top of that RMT will probably find some way to cheat the system and therefore %5 to population will again control the economy.
The whole point of the fatigue system is too keep people with too much time on their hands from getting too big of an advantage over the average player. Sure a "hardcore" could go craft after they hit the fatigue cap on their battle job, but they'll still eventually hit a cap on crafting as well I would think. Hardcores are always going to be ahead of the average Joe, but at least now they is something in place from letting them getting twice as far ahead just because they can play twice as long. Now it's more of a time/reward thing, where as the longer you stay in the game, the lesser the rewards unless you cool down for a while.

Honestly, I don't think this system will end up being as bad as people think it's going to be. Eventually they will get it balanced to a typical player (even one who's somewhat hardcore) will not run into a wall where they can't get anything done. It's just the rewards may not be as good. I don't care how hardcore anyone is, it's humanly impossible to play a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week. RMT on the other hand, they do it on a regular basis because it's simply different people controlling the characters in shifts.
____________________________
Harri
80BLU/80BST/76RNG/75THF/75WHM/60SCH
100+3 Bonecraft
#192 Aug 26 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
****
5,587 posts
deathly809 wrote:
I have decided the entire argument is this:

Casuals:
I don't want to be left behind

Hardcores:
I don't want to be held back

Pretty much. Being that the game has been promoted as a casual game, I don't know why the hardcores some how feel duped for assuming it would be anything but. My guess is some of these hardcore people figured since it was going to be advertised as a casual game, they'd be more able to dominate it than usual and are suddenly disappointed now that isn't the case.
____________________________
Harri
80BLU/80BST/76RNG/75THF/75WHM/60SCH
100+3 Bonecraft
#193 Aug 26 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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****
5,587 posts
yinstroo wrote:

i played beta, they gave you money by doing leves, the end result is casual players gave all thier money to hardcore people who figured out the recipes, knew how to get it, and had leveled the multiple crafts required to get that item. people paid 80k to get a 22 level wand, and 22k to get a level 8 wand. people paid 60k for a level 13 knuckle. those hardcores just took all the money from the casuals, and can use that to better control the economy. It had nothing to do with going past level 20 in anyone discipline to do this.
If it's truly casual players paying high prices for these crafted goods, then it's pretty apparent that making money isn't that much of a grind to begin with anyway.
____________________________
Harri
80BLU/80BST/76RNG/75THF/75WHM/60SCH
100+3 Bonecraft
#194 Aug 26 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
**
317 posts
Quote:
Pretty much. Being that the game has been promoted as a casual game, I don't know why the hardcores some how feel duped for assuming it would be anything but. My guess is some of these hardcore people figured since it was going to be advertised as a casual game, they'd be more able to dominate it than usual and are suddenly disappointed now that isn't the case.


I don't think they care about dominating other players as much as getting to the end. I think the people who want to dominate will do so no matter what how the system is setup.

I think they are really disappointed that they are held back from being the best they can be.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#195 Aug 26 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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5,587 posts
deathly809 wrote:
I think they are really disappointed that they are held back from being the best they can be.
There's nothing stopping them from that other than time. The disappointment is that they can't be the best they can be at a much faster pace than everyone else and hitting that mark within the first couple months of the release of the game.
____________________________
Harri
80BLU/80BST/76RNG/75THF/75WHM/60SCH
100+3 Bonecraft
#196 Aug 26 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
**
317 posts
Quote:
There's nothing stopping them from that other than time. The disappointment is that they can't be the best they can be at a much faster pace than everyone else and hitting that mark within the first couple months of the release of the game.


I don't think they are compete-ting with casual players, I think they are compete-ting with other hardcore players. To them the faster they can get to the end makes them better players.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#197 Aug 26 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
**
296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:

Yes. This. This. So hard. I want to play a game where I am not at a huge disadvantage because I have a life. Every other MMO on the market (except WoW - which I don't like, and even WoW on many levels) is pretty much closed off to casual players. This system will allow hardcore players to get rewarded for their time (with more skills/jobs/crafts etc) but without creating a situation where someone like me is lfp but I can't get a party because I haven't maxed my physical level.

If there is no system like this - then people who play 10 hours a day will hit 50 physical level in the first two weeks and people who don't have 50 physical level won't be welcome in parties.


So what you're looking for is a game where the hardcore player doesn't exist... and that's basically impossible. If they were to continue this system, and let's just say for the sake of argument that the current penalties fit your playtime and style perfectly, then those looking for more will go looking elsewhere, and those who can't play as much as you are "left behind" and you become the "l33t ub3r hardcore to the core" player. Is it really so hard to enjoy a game at your own pace, ignoring those that wish to progress faster or slower than you?

The biggest mistake I see in MMOs are people decrying the fortunes of others. It took me a full year of comparatively dedicated play to get my first job to cap in XI. By the time I got a chance to take another job up (and then only by soloing BST), I had friends with half a dozen capped jobs, with some gear I had no hope of obtaining. That didn't ruin my experience. Some areas of an MMO are built for people with more time to play. Even with some avenues for character advancement closed to me, I ran out of time to play looong before I ran out of avenues to better my character by myself or with my modest LS.

I've got news. No matter what the final build of XIV contains, there are always gonna be people better off, and worse off, than you. Almost every one has limitations on their time that prevent them from doing more on an MMO, whether it's school, family, jobs, or other interests. Penalties designed as this one is make it harder to play on your own schedule, because it offers advantages to playing a certain way for a certain amount of time, a certain number of times a week. Those penalties can hit people playing 20 hours a week as well as those playing 80.
#198 Aug 26 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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317 posts
Yo Dawg

Yo Dawg
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#199 Aug 26 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
175 posts
deathly809 wrote:
Yo Dawg

[img=175217]


<3!
____________________________
FFXI:(Remora -> Leviathan -> Shiva) WHM, BLM, RDM, THF, SAM, DNC
FFXIV: (Rabanastre) Working on: CON ~ LNC





#200 Aug 26 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
ascorbic wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:

Yes. This. This. So hard. I want to play a game where I am not at a huge disadvantage because I have a life. Every other MMO on the market (except WoW - which I don't like, and even WoW on many levels) is pretty much closed off to casual players. This system will allow hardcore players to get rewarded for their time (with more skills/jobs/crafts etc) but without creating a situation where someone like me is lfp but I can't get a party because I haven't maxed my physical level.

If there is no system like this - then people who play 10 hours a day will hit 50 physical level in the first two weeks and people who don't have 50 physical level won't be welcome in parties.


So what you're looking for is a game where the hardcore player doesn't exist... and that's basically impossible. If they were to continue this system, and let's just say for the sake of argument that the current penalties fit your playtime and style perfectly, then those looking for more will go looking elsewhere, and those who can't play as much as you are "left behind" and you become the "l33t ub3r hardcore to the core" player. Is it really so hard to enjoy a game at your own pace, ignoring those that wish to progress faster or slower than you?

The biggest mistake I see in MMOs are people decrying the fortunes of others. It took me a full year of comparatively dedicated play to get my first job to cap in XI. By the time I got a chance to take another job up (and then only by soloing BST), I had friends with half a dozen capped jobs, with some gear I had no hope of obtaining. That didn't ruin my experience. Some areas of an MMO are built for people with more time to play. Even with some avenues for character advancement closed to me, I ran out of time to play looong before I ran out of avenues to better my character by myself or with my modest LS.

I've got news. No matter what the final build of XIV contains, there are always gonna be people better off, and worse off, than you. Almost every one has limitations on their time that prevent them from doing more on an MMO, whether it's school, family, jobs, or other interests. Penalties designed as this one is make it harder to play on your own schedule, because it offers advantages to playing a certain way for a certain amount of time, a certain number of times a week. Those penalties can hit people playing 20 hours a week as well as those playing 80.


I gotta agree with this. No matter how the game is aimed, there will always be some people who are better at it than others. If Joe finds a game that is perfect for him, then suddenly Joe is the best player and everyone below Joe wants Joe to be nerfed.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
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Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#201 Aug 26 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
deathly809 wrote:
Yo Dawg

Yo Dawg


Smiley: lol
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
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