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#202 Aug 26 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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1,050 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Harri wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
But yeah, this is the first time I've seen community act together and beg SE to add more grind to this game- it's almost great to see this kind of cooperation. Too bad grass isn't greener on the other side, which you will realize if they scrap this system.
"F" that. If I wanted a bunch of grind I'd just continue playing FFXI. FFXIV was announced from the get go that it was going to be geared towards a casual playerbase, one where you can jump in and get things accomplished in short bursts of playing time and wouldn't require long hours of grinding. Now people are complaining that FFXIV is turning out exactly like they said it would?

Sorry that the people with no jobs or school that have 18 hours a day to play are disappointed they can't rocket past everyone else. That was never the intent of the game and I for one am glad to see this implemented in the game. There are plenty of other options in the MMO market to satisfy those cravings. Bravo to SE for trying something original and fresh.


Yes. This. This. So hard. I want to play a game where I am not at a huge disadvantage because I have a life. Every other MMO on the market (except WoW - which I don't like, and even WoW on many levels) is pretty much closed off to casual players. This system will allow hardcore players to get rewarded for their time (with more skills/jobs/crafts etc) but without creating a situation where someone like me is lfp but I can't get a party because I haven't maxed my physical level.

If there is no system like this - then people who play 10 hours a day will hit 50 physical level in the first two weeks and people who don't have 50 physical level won't be welcome in parties.


I love how 'having a life' always comes into threads like this. It's a great way for people to sneer at others who play more than they do as if they're better than others because they 'have a life'. This of course ignores the fact that it is quite possible to 'have a life' and still play 3-4 hours a day, but let's not ruin such a great putdown.

If you spend more time doing ANYTHING, you should reap greater rewards.

If you train at football/soccer more, you'll become a better player.
If you go to the gym more often, you'll become a fitter person.
If you work harder, you'll get a higher raise.

You don't tell a footballer to go play tennis halfway through the week because they've already played enough football, do you?
____________________________
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#203 Aug 26 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
Harri wrote:
deathly809 wrote:
I have decided the entire argument is this:

Casuals:
I don't want to be left behind

Hardcores:
I don't want to be held back

Pretty much. Being that the game has been promoted as a casual game, I don't know why the hardcores some how feel duped for assuming it would be anything but. My guess is some of these hardcore people figured since it was going to be advertised as a casual game, they'd be more able to dominate it than usual and are suddenly disappointed now that isn't the case.


As a casual player in my old age, I'm amazed by all the pent up anger directed at them Evil Hardcore Players... like there's something inherently wrong with anyone who plays more often (or more efficiently) than you. So they get places and see things faster... who cares? With server populations in the tens of thousands, it's difficult to believe all but those few elite bums made all your attempts to advance impossible. And it's hard to sympathize with those slinging EPeen insults when it seems the biggest thing the self described casual player wants is to feel every bit as powerful... at whatever pace they desire. Sounds like the Casuals have more than a little EPeen envy...

It all reminds me of a George Carlin Quote:
"Have you ever noticed, when you're driving, that anyone driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone driving faster than you is a *maniac*?"

Amen, Carlin.
#204 Aug 26 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

I gotta agree with this. No matter how the game is aimed, there will always be some people who are better at it than others. If Joe finds a game that is perfect for him, then suddenly Joe is the best player and everyone below Joe wants Joe to be nerfed.


Yes, but playing more does not equal better. I am fine with people ACTUALLY being more skilled - but NOT players getting to act like they are more skilled because they have 5 times as much time to play as you.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#205 Aug 26 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
Miitan wrote:

If you spend more time doing ANYTHING, you should reap greater rewards.

If you train at football/soccer more, you'll become a better player. you're more likely to get injured
If you go to the gym more often, you'll become a fitter person. you're more likely to get injured
If you work harder, you'll get a higher raise. Working harder doesn't mean working longer - it means working better

You don't tell a footballer to go play tennis halfway through the week because they've already played enough football, do you?


Actually:

Quote:
You consider yourself to be in better than average shape. You run several times a week for health and fitness and maybe do an occasional fun run on the weekend. Some friends come into town for the holidays and you decide to go skiing. No problem, you're in great shape, right? Wrong. After a day on the slopes you feel like you've been run over by Santa's sleigh and all his reindeer. What's going on?

You may be in great shape, for the sort of exercise you do routinely. But if that's all you do, day after day, you may be setting yourself up for injury or mental burnout and that is not a good way to get fit. What can help prevent injury and burnout? Cross training. http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/tipsandtricks/a/Cross_Training.htm
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#206 Aug 26 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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317 posts
@Olorinus

You know what they mean. Jeez
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#207 Aug 26 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
@Olorinus

You know what they mean. Jeez


Yeah. I felt embarrassed reading his post...
____________________________
We cast away priceless time in dreams, born of imagination, fed upon illusion, and put to death by reality. - Judy Garland
#208 Aug 26 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,050 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Miitan wrote:

If you spend more time doing ANYTHING, you should reap greater rewards.

If you train at football/soccer more, you'll become a better player. you're more likely to get injured
If you go to the gym more often, you'll become a fitter person. you're more likely to get injured
If you work harder, you'll get a higher raise. Working harder doesn't mean working longer - it means working better

You don't tell a footballer to go play tennis halfway through the week because they've already played enough football, do you?


Actually:

Quote:
You consider yourself to be in better than average shape. You run several times a week for health and fitness and maybe do an occasional fun run on the weekend. Some friends come into town for the holidays and you decide to go skiing. No problem, you're in great shape, right? Wrong. After a day on the slopes you feel like you've been run over by Santa's sleigh and all his reindeer. What's going on?

You may be in great shape, for the sort of exercise you do routinely. But if that's all you do, day after day, you may be setting yourself up for injury or mental burnout and that is not a good way to get fit. What can help prevent injury and burnout? Cross training. http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/tipsandtricks/a/Cross_Training.htm


Translation: I have no actual rebuttal, so I'll just post something unrelated to hide this fact.
____________________________
RotZ: Complete | CoP: Complete | ToAU: Complete | ACP: Complete | MKE: Complete | ASA: Complete | WotG: Complete
#209 Aug 26 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

I gotta agree with this. No matter how the game is aimed, there will always be some people who are better at it than others. If Joe finds a game that is perfect for him, then suddenly Joe is the best player and everyone below Joe wants Joe to be nerfed.


Yes, but playing more does not equal better. I am fine with people ACTUALLY being more skilled - but NOT players getting to act like they are more skilled because they have 5 times as much time to play as you.


I never mentioned skill. I'm just saying, point blank, that MMORPGs are intrinsically time sinks. The more time you spend on one, the better you are. You get more gear, you get more money, you level up more.

If the game is perfect for you because it suits your time frame, what about the people who have even less time to play than you do? Won't you be better off than them because you have more money and more gear and more levels? What about someone who wants to play FFXIV for 10 minutes a day, two days a week? Should the game be tailored to reduce any player's ability to get XP after 20 minutes per week because that guy might feel left out that you can play for a whole hour and he can't?
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#210 Aug 26 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

I gotta agree with this. No matter how the game is aimed, there will always be some people who are better at it than others. If Joe finds a game that is perfect for him, then suddenly Joe is the best player and everyone below Joe wants Joe to be nerfed.


Yes, but playing more does not equal better. I am fine with people ACTUALLY being more skilled - but NOT players getting to act like they are more skilled because they have 5 times as much time to play as you.


Not true. Your problem isn't with real or imagined technical proficiency at playing at all, you simply don't want anyone getting ahead of you. Because you "Have a Life" and therefore anyone who plays more than you by default doesn't, and therefore is bad. Woe is you.

You've made choices, and with those come time constraints. Be it your job, or your family, or school, or what have you, you derive a great deal of satisfaction, and untold benefits that people without such luxuries can't obtain. You don't feel for them. Not only do you want all the benefits of a full and rich life that limits your playtime, you also want everyone else playing your MMO to be held back to whatever speed best suits you, so that you see no disadvantage from having your cake and eating it too.

Should we next limit your real world lifestyle so you gain no advantage over a high school dropout with a part time job and no family?
#211 Aug 26 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
They asked a question - I answered. The truth is in sports they don't just scrum forever - they do all sorts of different exercises to keep fit and get better - just like this system - which encourages you essentially to cross-train.

Also no one has answered how someone with physical level 20 is supposed to get parties if there is no physical level fatigue and all the hardcore folks are at physical level 50 by week 2.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#212 Aug 26 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
**
296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Miitan wrote:

If you spend more time doing ANYTHING, you should reap greater rewards.

If you train at football/soccer more, you'll become a better player. you're more likely to get injured
If you go to the gym more often, you'll become a fitter person. you're more likely to get injured
If you work harder, you'll get a higher raise. Working harder doesn't mean working longer - it means working better

You don't tell a footballer to go play tennis halfway through the week because they've already played enough football, do you?


Actually:

Quote:
You consider yourself to be in better than average shape. You run several times a week for health and fitness and maybe do an occasional fun run on the weekend. Some friends come into town for the holidays and you decide to go skiing. No problem, you're in great shape, right? Wrong. After a day on the slopes you feel like you've been run over by Santa's sleigh and all his reindeer. What's going on?

You may be in great shape, for the sort of exercise you do routinely. But if that's all you do, day after day, you may be setting yourself up for injury or mental burnout and that is not a good way to get fit. What can help prevent injury and burnout? Cross training. http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/tipsandtricks/a/Cross_Training.htm


So you're not actually trying to keep others from getting beyond you... you're trying to protect them from themselves???? Oh lord...
#213 Aug 26 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
They asked a question - I answered. The truth is in sports they don't just scrum forever - they do all sorts of different exercises to keep fit and get better - just like this system - which encourages you essentially to cross-train.

Also no one has answered how someone with physical level 20 is supposed to get parties if there is no physical level fatigue and all the hardcore folks are at physical level 50 by week 2.


They group up with other people at physical level 20.

You don't hold everyone back because a few people can't keep up. What's next, fail an entire class of students because one of them got bad grades?

Some people progress faster than others. That's life. Play with the people who progress at the same rate you do.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#214 Aug 26 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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317 posts
Quote:
Also no one has answered how someone with physical level 20 is supposed to get parties if there is no physical level fatigue and all the hardcore folks are at physical level 50 by week 2.


Why would the casuals party with the hardcore people. Why don't they party with the other casual players?
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#215 Aug 26 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,050 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
They asked a question - I answered. The truth is in sports they don't just scrum forever - they do all sorts of different exercises to keep fit and get better - just like this system - which encourages you essentially to cross-train.

Also no one has answered how someone with physical level 20 is supposed to get parties if there is no physical level fatigue and all the hardcore folks are at physical level 50 by week 2.


And how is someone at physical level 10 supposed to get parties if they can't play as much and all the ones who can are at physical level 20?

Hint: By levelling with people who are level 10 because not everyone will be level 20.
____________________________
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#216 Aug 26 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
They asked a question - I answered. The truth is in sports they don't just scrum forever - they do all sorts of different exercises to keep fit and get better - just like this system - which encourages you essentially to cross-train.

Also no one has answered how someone with physical level 20 is supposed to get parties if there is no physical level fatigue and all the hardcore folks are at physical level 50 by week 2.


I will! you'll get there by playing with people that have abilities similar to your own. Hardcore players, by definition, make up a small portion of the player base. If they were the majority, they'd be mainstream.

And if hardcore is actually mainstream... why on earth punish most your players for a select few's benefit???
#217 Aug 26 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Darkmod asked me to post this:

Screenshot
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#218 Aug 26 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
why don't we make a game entirely for the 10 percent of people that can and want to play 10 hours a day?

OH WAIT.

EVERY OTHER MMO IS THAT GAME.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#219 Aug 26 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Darkmod asked me to post this:

[img=175220]


Makes me lol all day.
____________________________
FFXI:(Remora -> Leviathan -> Shiva) WHM, BLM, RDM, THF, SAM, DNC
FFXIV: (Rabanastre) Working on: CON ~ LNC





#220 Aug 26 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
ascorbic wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
They asked a question - I answered. The truth is in sports they don't just scrum forever - they do all sorts of different exercises to keep fit and get better - just like this system - which encourages you essentially to cross-train.

Also no one has answered how someone with physical level 20 is supposed to get parties if there is no physical level fatigue and all the hardcore folks are at physical level 50 by week 2.


I will! you'll get there by playing with people that have abilities similar to your own. Hardcore players, by definition, make up a small portion of the player base. If they were the majority, they'd be mainstream.

And if hardcore is actually mainstream... why on earth punish most your players for a select few's benefit???


I'm really trying not to bring Republicans and Democrats into this and derail the everliving **** out of this topic.

I really am.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#221 Aug 26 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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317 posts
Quote:
why don't we make a game entirely for the 10 percent of people that can and want to play 10 hours a day?

OH WAIT.

EVERY OTHER MMO IS THAT GAME.


Oh wait! Only 10% of the people are hardcores? Wow then why have to exp cap because 90% of the people is in your level range!!
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#222 Aug 26 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
why don't we make a game entirely for the 10 percent of people that can and want to play 10 hours a day?

OH WAIT.

EVERY OTHER MMO IS THAT GAME.


Oh wait! Only 10% of the people are hardcores? Wow then why have to exp cap because 90% of the people is in your level range!!


Because it isn't much fun to play when 10 percent of the player base runs everything and you can't accomplish anything in the time you have to play. I'm sorry but I still remember farming for 20 hours to afford a basic black robe or whatever it was called on my blm for lvl 20 in FFXI - I can't afford to do that anymore just so that someone who can play all day every day gets to feel like they are "better" than me while overcharging me just because they can.

And if it is like that - the game will die - because like it or not - casual players are the majority of the market and if it isn't fun for them to play - SE won't be able to afford to update the game. So by all means - kill the game so that the minority can finish it in 1 month if that is what you want.

But don't whine when there isn't any updates and you are in endgame with nothing to do.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#223 Aug 26 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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317 posts
Quote:
Because it isn't much fun to play when 10 percent of the player base runs everything and you can't accomplish anything in the time you have to play. I'm sorry but I still remember farming for 20 hours to afford a basic black robe or whatever it was called on my blm for lvl 20 in FFXI - I can't afford to do that anymore just so that someone who can play all day every day gets to feel like they are "better" than me while overcharging me just because they can.


Well why didn't you craft it? You will always have a small minority in charge of a majority in video games, remember there are no monopoly laws!

Quote:
And if it is like that - the game will die - because like it or not - casual players are the majority of the market and if it isn't fun for them to play - SE won't be able to afford to update the game. So by all means - kill the game so that the minority can finish it in 1 month if that is what you want.


I know just like FFXI! Oh wait...
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#224 Aug 26 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
XI is a different kettle of fish. The people who like XI will stay there.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#225 Aug 26 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
why don't we make a game entirely for the 10 percent of people that can and want to play 10 hours a day?

OH WAIT.

EVERY OTHER MMO IS THAT GAME.


Oh wait! Only 10% of the people are hardcores? Wow then why have to exp cap because 90% of the people is in your level range!!


I gotta agree with this, if you believe that 90% of the playerbase is not hardcore players and therefore won't be affected, then why do you need to punish 10% for playing the way they want when it wouldn't affect you anyway?

I don't get the need that people have that they want to see people who have it better than them in certain ways be brought down to their level, it's this giant lynch mob mentality. If nothing else, it's just jealousy overflowing into rage. You see someone else with something you don't have; a nice TV, a car, a good paying job, a big house, a hot wife, or even just something as simple as more time to spend on an online game, and there's this devouring need to bring them down to your level.

Let's have the government mandate that everyone drive the same cars, live in the same sized houses, in the same types of neighborhoods, make the exact same amount of money, just so that no one has to feel like they're underprivileged.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#226 Aug 26 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
XI is a different kettle of fish. The people who like XI will stay there.


So you want to play XIV the way you think you should be able to play it, but if someone else wants to play XIV the way they think they should play it, they are wrong and you are right?
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#227 Aug 26 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
It isn't that I am jealous, christ - it is that I WANT TO HAVE FUN WHEN I PLAY AND FARMING FOR 20 HOURS FOR A BASIC LEVEL FRIGGING 20 PIECE OF GEAR ISN'T FUN.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#228 Aug 26 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
why don't we make a game entirely for the 10 percent of people that can and want to play 10 hours a day?

OH WAIT.

EVERY OTHER MMO IS THAT GAME.


Oh wait! Only 10% of the people are hardcores? Wow then why have to exp cap because 90% of the people is in your level range!!


Because it isn't much fun to play when 10 percent of the player base runs everything and you can't accomplish anything in the time you have to play. I'm sorry but I still remember farming for 20 hours to afford a basic black robe or whatever it was called on my blm for lvl 20 in FFXI - I can't afford to do that anymore just so that someone who can play all day every day gets to feel like they are "better" than me while overcharging me just because they can.

And if it is like that - the game will die - because like it or not - casual players are the majority of the market and if it isn't fun for them to play - SE won't be able to afford to update the game. So by all means - kill the game so that the minority can finish it in 1 month if that is what you want.

But don't whine when there isn't any updates and you are in endgame with nothing to do.


If people hit endgame and have nothing to do, that's their problem, not yours. You don't need to save other people from themselves.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#229 Aug 26 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
why don't we make a game entirely for the 10 percent of people that can and want to play 10 hours a day?

OH WAIT.

EVERY OTHER MMO IS THAT GAME.


While I couldn't disagree more with that statement, if that's how you feel, you're obviously in the wrong genre.

I've played half a dozen MMOs in the past decade, and even at my most "Hardcore" I couldn't play half of that time. These days 10-15 hours a week would probably be pushing it as far as what I can devote to play. And guess what? There was Tons to do in those MMOs for lil' ole me. All you have to do to see the wealth of opportunities is to stop looking up and envying those above you.

There is no "Winner" of an MMO. It's all about the journey...
#230 Aug 26 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
It isn't that I am jealous, christ - it is that I WANT TO HAVE FUN WHEN I PLAY AND FARMING FOR 20 HOURS FOR A BASIC LEVEL FRIGGING 20 PIECE OF GEAR ISN'T FUN.


No one is saying you have to.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#231 Aug 26 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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@Olo: Cause that's what happened to FFXI right? That's why SE cancelled it correct? WAIT A MINUTE...

I liked the earlier quote too where it was stated that an acceptable time for a hardcore to get a level was 4-5 hours of grinding and a casual feels that 30mins to an hour is, and that if casuals don't get that with rested exp, they will quit.

I am going in to work tomorrow morning and telling my boss that despite me only working for 1 hour, I expect to get paid for a full day's wage.

Everywhere else in the world understands that more time = more results, when DONE CORRECTLY (for all those who are again gonna bring up work smarter not harder). If you take a casual and a hardcore of equal skill, resources (barring time, see later) and ability, the one who puts in more time gets a better benefit. Why is this so hard to understand? That's how it should work.
#232 Aug 26 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It isn't that I am jealous, christ - it is that I WANT TO HAVE FUN WHEN I PLAY AND FARMING FOR 20 HOURS FOR A BASIC LEVEL FRIGGING 20 PIECE OF GEAR ISN'T FUN.


But with Surplus in play, you'll probably play as a Botanist/Weaver/whatnot and have the necessary skills to craft your own gear. So, there really shouldn't be any problem.
____________________________
We cast away priceless time in dreams, born of imagination, fed upon illusion, and put to death by reality. - Judy Garland
#233 Aug 26 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
XI is a different kettle of fish. The people who like XI will stay there.


So you want to play XIV the way you think you should be able to play it, but if someone else wants to play XIV the way they think they should play it, they are wrong and you are right?


No, it isn't about wrong and right. Luckily for me SE wants to make money on this game and I am in the demographic that will make them money. So this feature of the game doesn't bother me.

It is unfortunate that you are not in the same demographic as me. Honestly if people don't like the feature they should show SE how what they want will make the company more money than what I want.

I don't think people are wrong for wanting to play the way they want to play - but I don't think I am wrong or a bad person for wanting to enjoy this game either.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#234 Aug 26 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
This wont even prevent discrimination by "hardcores" against "casuals" if thats even what they're going for. If I want to level PUG, and it caps, I'm gonna level Marauder/lancer or something else. Then I'd be a rank 20 pug with a wider range of abilities, while the "casual" pug is stuck with just the basics.

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#235 Aug 26 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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317 posts
Quote:
It isn't that I am jealous, christ - it is that I WANT TO HAVE FUN WHEN I PLAY AND FARMING FOR 20 HOURS FOR A BASIC LEVEL FRIGGING 20 PIECE OF GEAR ISN'T FUN.


No one made you do that, I was always behind in gear and could still level.
____________________________
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#236 Aug 26 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
ChoochZero wrote:
@Olo: Cause that's what happened to FFXI right? That's why SE cancelled it correct? WAIT A MINUTE...

I liked the earlier quote too where it was stated that an acceptable time for a hardcore to get a level was 4-5 hours of grinding and a casual feels that 30mins to an hour is, and that if casuals don't get that with rested exp, they will quit.

I am going in to work tomorrow morning and telling my boss that despite me only working for 1 hour, I expect to get paid for a full day's wage.

Everywhere else in the world understands that more time = more results, when DONE CORRECTLY (for all those who are again gonna bring up work smarter not harder). If you take a casual and a hardcore of equal skill, resources (barring time, see later) and ability, the one who puts in more time gets a better benefit. Why is this so hard to understand? That's how it should work.


I gotta agree with this analogy. I can't go into work and tell my boss that I can't be expected to work for 8 hours a day or more like those "hardcore workers" do, so I only want to come in for 1-2 hours, and want to get paid the same as them.

You work more, you get more money.

You play more, you get more loot.
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#237 Aug 26 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
Auruelis wrote:
Quote:
It isn't that I am jealous, christ - it is that I WANT TO HAVE FUN WHEN I PLAY AND FARMING FOR 20 HOURS FOR A BASIC LEVEL FRIGGING 20 PIECE OF GEAR ISN'T FUN.


But with Surplus in play, you'll probably play as a Botanist/Weaver/whatnot and have the necessary skills to craft your own gear. So, there really shouldn't be any problem.


Exactly. Which is one of the many reasons I like surplus - because players are rewarded for trying different things -whereas in FFXI - my play style - where I played a lot of different jobs made me weaker than everyone else who just tried to rocket to endgame.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#238 Aug 26 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
XI is a different kettle of fish. The people who like XI will stay there.


So you want to play XIV the way you think you should be able to play it, but if someone else wants to play XIV the way they think they should play it, they are wrong and you are right?


No, it isn't about wrong and right. Luckily for me SE wants to make money on this game and I am in the demographic that will make them money. So this feature of the game doesn't bother me.

It is unfortunate that you are not in the same demographic as me. Honestly if people don't like the feature they should show SE how what they want will make the company more money than what I want.

I don't think people are wrong for wanting to play the way they want to play - but I don't think I am wrong or a bad person for wanting to enjoy this game either.


The problem with that is not that you want to enjoy the game, but that you want other people to NOT enjoy the game. By saying you like the system, you are declaring that you want a system that will cause players to be unhappy, but so long as YOU are not that player, you don't care about who it affects.

That's what I'm getting out of it. "It doesn't affect me, so I am fine with it. Just so long as it affects everyone else"
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#239 Aug 26 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
KujaKoF wrote:
This wont even prevent discrimination by "hardcores" against "casuals" if thats even what they're going for. If I want to level PUG, and it caps, I'm gonna level Marauder/lancer or something else. Then I'd be a rank 20 pug with a wider range of abilities, while the "casual" pug is stuck with just the basics.



which is fine. You still get rewarded for your labour, as you should - but you just don't get to dominate on physical level as well as being more versatile. I think it is a reasonable compromise.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#240 Aug 26 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

The problem with that is not that you want to enjoy the game, but that you want other people to NOT enjoy the game. By saying you like the system, you are declaring that you want a system that will cause players to be unhappy, but so long as YOU are not that player, you don't care about who it affects.

That's what I'm getting out of it. "It doesn't affect me, so I am fine with it. Just so long as it affects everyone else"


But you want a system that made me unhappy. How is that different?
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#241 Aug 26 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
**
296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
It isn't that I am jealous, christ - it is that I WANT TO HAVE FUN WHEN I PLAY AND FARMING FOR 20 HOURS FOR A BASIC LEVEL FRIGGING 20 PIECE OF GEAR ISN'T FUN.


Beyond the fact that your "problem" has absolutely nothing to do with how fast others progress, if you aren't having fun, then you don't do it. Or, if you see the benefit, you don't complain.

Besides, that's an economics problem. This has NOTHING to do with the economy. That very situation could arise in this system. And I take it you aren't too concerned with those starting after release, are you?
#242 Aug 26 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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317 posts
Quote:
which is fine. You still get rewarded for your labour, as you should - but you just don't get to dominate on physical level as well as being more versatile. I think it is a reasonable compromise.


You won't get rewarded for your labor, if I sit there for weeks on end only leveling PUG, after a while I don't get rewarded for my labor.

I am pretty sure you just mean they won't be better than you and that makes you happy.
____________________________
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl

Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#243 Aug 26 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
Well, as fun as it is to get hammered on by 10 people at a time, I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#244 Aug 26 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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122 posts
I don't think this will effect the gap in levels between hardcore and casual.

Casuals wont get near the surplus, and even if hardcores are continuously riding the surplus line, [which I don't think they will be], they will be progressing significantly faster than casuals.

I think we will have a very wide spread of level on most servers. This will just serve to prevent exploits and curb RMT.

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#245 Aug 26 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

The problem with that is not that you want to enjoy the game, but that you want other people to NOT enjoy the game. By saying you like the system, you are declaring that you want a system that will cause players to be unhappy, but so long as YOU are not that player, you don't care about who it affects.

That's what I'm getting out of it. "It doesn't affect me, so I am fine with it. Just so long as it affects everyone else"


But you want a system that made me unhappy. How is that different?


Not having surplus XP does not negatively impact anyone.
Having surplus XP negatively impacts many players and has no positive impact for anyone.

I know that you live in an area where you like to ride your bike; how would you feel if biking were banned and you were required to use a car to travel, because people who did not like bike riding didn't feel it fair that there are all these bikers around?

That's the problem. This is a system with NO benefit to anyone, only penalties.

Flip the system around and make it have bonus XP for playing less time, not XP penalties for playing more. Then you get your bonus and no one gets penalized.

Why does someone else have to suffer for you to enjoy the game?
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#246 Aug 26 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

The problem with that is not that you want to enjoy the game, but that you want other people to NOT enjoy the game. By saying you like the system, you are declaring that you want a system that will cause players to be unhappy, but so long as YOU are not that player, you don't care about who it affects.

That's what I'm getting out of it. "It doesn't affect me, so I am fine with it. Just so long as it affects everyone else"


But you want a system that made me unhappy. How is that different?



You made you unhappy. People being higher level than you shouldn't matter to you. Do you think no one can enjoy XIV if they don't join at PC release? Because all those people would have to deal with the issues you speak of. If they are building a game no one can enjoy without being tied for the top physical level, this game's going down like Titanic.
#247 Aug 26 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


You work more, you get more money.

You play more, you get more loot.


Actually in the real world it works like this:

you get paid more salary per year, you make more money

The real money makers in this world don't get paid by the hour. Anyone who has ever tried to get ahead by working more on a minimum wage job knows that there are not enough hours in the day to catch up with someone who makes more per hour than you.

Anyway, so the analogy doesn't hold up.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#248 Aug 26 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Well, as fun as it is to get hammered on by 10 people at a time, I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.


Fine with me. Perhaps next time you'll take the hint that your opinion doesn't equal a majority. Going by your numbers, most people think differently than you, so SE would do well to listen...
#249 Aug 26 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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ascorbic wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

The problem with that is not that you want to enjoy the game, but that you want other people to NOT enjoy the game. By saying you like the system, you are declaring that you want a system that will cause players to be unhappy, but so long as YOU are not that player, you don't care about who it affects.

That's what I'm getting out of it. "It doesn't affect me, so I am fine with it. Just so long as it affects everyone else"


But you want a system that made me unhappy. How is that different?



You made you unhappy. People being higher level than you shouldn't matter to you. Do you think no one can enjoy XIV if they don't join at PC release? Because all those people would have to deal with the issues you speak of. If they are building a game no one can enjoy without being tied for the top physical level, this game's going down like Titanic.


Indeed. I don't get the need to get all worked up over the fact that some people are a higher level than you. What's the solution here; don't let anyone at all level up until EVERYONE on the server is level 2? And then when a new player starts the game, delevel everyone to 1 so they don't feel left out?

Play the game at your own pace, and let other people play the game at theirs. Some people will level faster than you will, some will level slower than you will.
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#250 Aug 26 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
ascorbic wrote:


You made you unhappy. People being higher level than you shouldn't matter to you.


You are making you unhappy. Not being allowed to level endlessly without penalty shouldn't matter to you.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#251 Aug 26 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


You work more, you get more money.

You play more, you get more loot.


Actually in the real world it works like this:

you get paid more salary per year, you make more money

The real money makers in this world don't get paid by the hour. Anyone who has ever tried to get ahead by working more on a minimum wage job knows that there are not enough hours in the day to catch up with someone who makes more per hour than you.

Anyway, so the analogy doesn't hold up.


You make a good point, but that doesn't really help your argument either. Some people are just plain better off than others. Why should it affect my personal life that some people are making millions of dollars a day? I make a certain amount of money. Some people make more and some people make less. I don't feel the need to begrudge people who are better off than I am.

I just try as hard as -I- can and try to enjoy my life.
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