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Surplus isn't the biggest problemFollow

#1 Aug 26 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Default
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Gonna make this short and sweet as I'm about to go out for lunch. I see a lot of people complaining about surplus, and they have a right to, it is a stupid idea, blah, blah, blah, you've already heard all of the reasons why surplus is bad. My problem isn't surplus though, it's the guildleve system. You get 8 leves and as far as I could tell you could only have 4 leves for actual combat (at least, that's what I was always limited to). Every day these leves get reset but you can only do 8 in a 48 hour period. My problem is I finish these leves in 20 minutes and I'm left with nothing to do as I refuse to grind out xp. I know you can get in a group (apparently not in the last beta period) and do those same guildleves over using other people's leves...so...I have 20 minutes worth of content that I'm supposed to do over and over...that's pretty much grinding.

So yeah, this is my concern, what are your thoughts? Have I missed something? Off to lunch now.
#2 Aug 26 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
There are threads discussing the guildleve system, so I'll keep this short, but you get 8 regional leves (those can be divided however you want between combat leves and DoL leves) and 8 town leves, which are for DoH stuff. Yes, they only recharge every 48 hours, but you don't have to have leves to kill stuff either.
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#3 Aug 26 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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So yeah, this is my concern, what are your thoughts? Have I missed something? Off to lunch now.


Yes, the design of guildleve system is what's going to kill the game if not taken care of, if anything.

When guildleves take 5minutes to clear, 48h cooldown is absurd. It should scale.

Rank 1 leves = 2h cooldown

Rank 10 leves = 4h cooldown

Rank 20+ leves = 48h cooldown.

If rank 20 leves take 15-25 minutes to complete, the system works much better and it will be more beneficial to party.
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#4 Aug 26 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
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Do leves in a PT...
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#5 Aug 26 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
I don't want to go the "it's always been that way" route, because I hate that argument. But I feel grinding has stuck around for so long because it works so well.

Grinding is probably the most "entertainment-friendly" way of keeping a player from more advanced content or beating the game. I don't think SE (or any company for that matter) is up to the task to provide us with 5-8 years of content that's straight up quests and missions without making grinding a major chunk of the gameplay. One of the things I really regret in FFXI was that I only got to the mid 40s in level, so I never got to finish any of the missions and get the whole storyline. But can you imagine how quick the game would be over if each mission rank was 2 or 3 levels instead of 10?

I would say the closest games that I could think of as example to what I think you'd like would be FF Tactics or any of the Fire Emblem games. These games are mainly comprised of their quest/mission levels and fights and, for the most part, don't require or allow grinding. If you really stretch these games out, they'll last maybe 100 hours... that's not a heck of a lot of playtime over even a year, let alone 8 years. There would have to be a constant barrage of expansions, maybe one every 2 or 3 months, to keep the feverish players leveling up with new quest and missions. It would be too costly for SE and for players, so I think that's why they fall back on grinding to slow you down. That's my two cents, at least.
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#6 Aug 26 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Just running out of leves is only half the problem. The other problem I ran accross was a complete lack of mobs to even grind on. My first set of leves got me to phys lvl 6 and lvl 5 Marauder, but then I was stuck running around looking for mobs to kill.

In the general area around the Bearded Rock there were literally only about 20 mobs, and over half of them were Dodos that I could not kill at lvl 6. There were about 6-7 rats. All mobs were spaced out so far that it took about 20-30 seconds just to run to another mob. Every other MMO I have played has many times more noobie mobs with fast respawn rates to grind away on.

So what exactly was I supposed to grind on? How exactly are 500 noobs at lvl 5 going to grind on half a dozen rats? Am I the only one that sees a problem here? Is there some location I didn't see with lots of level appropriate mobs to grind on?

Playing in beta has made it so I will not be buying this game on release until I see many things changed/fixed. Yeah, yeah, it is beta, but not having anything to do is not a tweak that needs to be made...it is a fundamental game breaking issue.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:30pm by Enscheff
#7 Aug 26 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I love grinding. It's one of the biggest reasons I had so much fun in 11 and 12 and hated 13.
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#8 Aug 26 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I love grinding. It's one of the biggest reasons I had so much fun in 11 and 12 and hated 13.


Same for me. I always said that my favorite part of FFXI was grinding out new jobs. (A vast majority of people I played with disagreed with my view, but I still got a kick out of it.) I'll still be doing the same thing in FFXIV, I just won't be doing it "one at a time" this time around.

Edit: In retrospect I think it's funny that in FFXI people complained about how much they had to grind, and now people are complaining about how they can't grind as much as they want. Not that these are the same people flip-flopping, just that in both cases the people dissatisfied seemed to be the majority.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:39pm by Kaelia88
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#9 Aug 26 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Enscheff wrote:
Just running out of leves is only half the problem. The other problem I ran accross was a complete lack of mobs to even grind on. My first set of leves got me to phys lvl 6 and lvl 5 Marauder, but then I was stuck running around looking for mobs to kill.


First off I don't think the mob placement is going to be the same on release. Second, I did log in when the server was showing low and I actually found 3 camps between beard and skull that popped very fast and provided good xp for a 10/11 marauder. I had searched long and hard before and not found any, but when it was dead I found all three in seconds walk from eachother. I'm not overly concerned about solo camps like I initially was.
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#10 Aug 26 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly there are plenty of things to do in game. I understand if you dont "want" to do them as its your decision. I would simply suggest using leves as a boost to xp not a primary way of doing it.

In my super short 4 day beta 3 playtime, I managed to gain physical lvl 20 complete Treasures of the Main and Legends Adrift quests (which is a good gil earner 4k reward for those) and I dabbled in all DoL and DoH. I didnt do DoW much outside of Lancer to 7 and Pug to 6. The majority of my time I spent fishing for fun and I enjoyed Mining and Botany. I got Botany to 13 Mining to 11 and Fishing to 8.

All these things were highly enjoyable and aside from the UI lag. The beta ran hiccup free. I never crashed and I never had anything more than a stutter of lag or slowdown while in town.

I think FFXIV is "meant" to be played in a variety of ways as opposed to FFXI which was 90% grinding and most never got to see any content if they didnt atleast get a job lvld to mid-high lvl. I think the devs are trying to balance things to reward lots of different playstyles but as the old saying goes "you cant please everyone." Leves are fun and I admit the cool down is a tad excessive, which can be fixed by just having a ton of different leves available with cool down only affecting the repeating of certain leves. All in all I have faith that it will get better once more ppl get to play and open beta will probably usher in minor changes as most of the game would probably be near final build.
#11 Aug 26 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Same for me. I always said that my favorite part of FFXI was grinding out new jobs. (A vast majority of people I played with disagreed with my view, but I still got a kick out of it.) I'll still be doing the same thing in FFXIV, I just won't be doing it "one at a time" this time around.


Grinding never really bothered me. ****, I soloed DNC to 75 and full merits...that was a grind and a half.

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Edit: In retrospect I think it's funny that in FFXI people complained about how much they had to grind, and now people are complaining about how they can't grind as much as they want. Not that these are the same people flip-flopping, just that in both cases the people dissatisfied seemed to be the majority.


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#12 Aug 26 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Honestly, I love grinding. It's one of the biggest reasons I had so much fun in 11 and 12 and hated 13.


I agree that I too did enjoy the exp grind of ff11. It made it all the more sweeter to get a new ability or spell you've been waiting for. But I also feel that it doesn't need to be as big a deal as it was in ff11.
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#13 Aug 26 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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It's b...

The game is not out yet. I'll be damned if they don't add more leves, add harder leves, add more mobs in starter zones, add more starter zones, etc.

Better learn balance. Balance is key. Balance good, game good. Everything good. Balance bad, better pack up, go home. Understand?
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#14 Aug 26 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Back from lunch, I see some of you agree and some of you like grinding and others don't really have anything constructive to say.

It's great that you guys like grinding, more power to ya, but I don't like killing hordes of rats and moles just so I can get a level. In my mind it's pointless and I find it boring. If I wanted pixelated murder I would pick up Torchlight because at least it gives you a reason to destroy hordes of skeletons, dwarves and demons but even then I get bored easily. Give me a compelling reason to kill those cute little rams as well as a little bit of a storyline to break up the monotony and I'll do it but otherwise I'd rather just let them be.

I could do these leves in groups, yes, but they are all the same leves over and over and once everyone in your group has completed their leves (a group of 5 could finish all of their leves in an hour) you have to find another group. Either way it's still a mindless grind as it's the same 4 leves over and over again.

The point is, as this game currently is (yes, I know it's still in beta), the only people who will want to play FFXIV are those who still enjoy grinding. SE is going to have to increase the number of leaves available, increase the number of leves you can hold, and remove the artificial limits placed on the guildleve system in order to get anyone other than those who still play FFXI to play the game, assuming they are willing to leave FFXI or play both.

The game is great, it looks great, combat is great, crafting looks ok but hard to start...it's just the way it is right now I don't have the desire to play it for more than half an hour a day, which is fine some days, but other's I may want to spend a couple hours at it. This is my largest concern with the game and if it doesn't change I just can't justify buying it.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 3:53pm by Yogtheterrible
#15 Aug 26 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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Kaelia88 wrote:
Quote:
Honestly, I love grinding. It's one of the biggest reasons I had so much fun in 11 and 12 and hated 13.


Same for me. I always said that my favorite part of FFXI was grinding out new jobs. (A vast majority of people I played with disagreed with my view, but I still got a kick out of it.) I'll still be doing the same thing in FFXIV, I just won't be doing it "one at a time" this time around.

Edit: In retrospect I think it's funny that in FFXI people complained about how much they had to grind, and now people are complaining about how they can't grind as much as they want. Not that these are the same people flip-flopping, just that in both cases the people dissatisfied seemed to be the majority.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:39pm by Kaelia88


Just a couple of points:

There's grinding then there's grinding.

If it's fast paced and I'm getting EXP and good loot, I could grind all day.

If it's, taking 3 minutes and I leave and come back just to get 10xp and an onion bulb, then I ain't happy.

The other point is needing to grind and wanting to grind. In FFXI there was no other choice. If I can gain 1000xp in a fetch quest (which I have no idea if FFXIV will include quests like this) then that breaks up the grind, thus making the rest of it somewhat tolerable.
#16 Aug 26 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Just a couple of points:

There's grinding then there's grinding.

If it's fast paced and I'm getting EXP and good loot, I could grind all day.

If it's, taking 3 minutes and I leave and come back just to get 10xp and an onion bulb, then I ain't happy.

The other point is needing to grind and wanting to grind. In FFXI there was no other choice. If I can gain 1000xp in a fetch quest (which I have no idea if FFXIV will include quests like this) then that breaks up the grind, thus making the rest of it somewhat tolerable.


Don't hate on the onion bulbs! I soloed as a RDM/BLM for a few levels haha.
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#17 Aug 26 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Honestly, I love grinding. It's one of the biggest reasons I had so much fun in 11 and 12 and hated 13.

FFXIII did have grinding, only you didn't grind for EXP, rather gil.

But there are better reasons to hate FFXIII.

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