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I finally get it!!Follow

#1 Aug 26 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I FINALLY GET IT!!!!...i think. the whole purpose of the system is to give people a chance to enjoy the rest of the game without having to grind. There trying to give us the same ammount of lvls in a shorter time.If they eliminate this sytem, they will have to increase the amount of EXP to next level.So by the end of the week we will still be at the same level... just wasted that much more time trying to get there.

This is what beta is meant for, trying to find this balance. I guarantee that once people start to lvl there going to gauge where people are and adjust acordingly. Remember.. this is software coding, things like these get changed with version updates constantly in the begining. Also.. do you know how many skill up parties i was in not gaining any exp? Atleast with this system your still gaining some form of advancement(Surplus Exp).

All in all its a unique twist on leveling that may have many pros adjusted correctly. No need for knee-jerk reactions just quite yet. This is not a punishment to Hardcore players, nor an advantage to casual gamers. You hardcore gamers with more time will still have certin advantages. Let me list some pros and cons

HARDCORE PLAYER ADVANTAGES

*More skill ups\abilities
*More time farming\gaining money.. thus better gear
*Better understand of game and(hopefully)better at the game
*More friends
*More Story unlocked
to be honest this list can get pretty long


POSSIBLE DISADVANTAGES

*party needing a job you've already leveled on
*hitting cap before your desired level(this is all dependent on personal play style)
to be honest these have been the major gripes about this sytem
I would love to have people add constructive\non bias pros and cons.

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#2 Aug 26 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
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Finally someone else that shares the view most likely intended. I agree we will all look back on these early days of ffxiv and laugh at how ppl thought it was bad idea. Change is always gonna be met with resistance.

Remember in ffxi when abyssea first rolled out and folks were ******** about 30mins per stone. Now folks are in there for hours upon hours on end. So I agree that we have to play it in its final build first and then see where we are at that time. Only then would it make sense to complain if that is what some players want to do.

I got a taste of beta and now I want more lol.
#3 Aug 26 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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To plagiarize a post from the official forums:

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It's an arbitrary restriction that doesn't need to be there.

To say "if it wasn't a fatigue/surplus system, then it would just be a longer xp curve, so it's the same either way" is simply not true. It's a serious stretch of perception at best.

A longer xp curve doesn't stop rewarding full xp after 8 hours, doesn't stop rewarding any xp at all after another 7 hours, and doesn't have a 1 week recycle period.

The Surplus system does nothing for the players - casual or otherwise - that they couldn't or wouldn't do on their own anyway. It simply forces them to do it on a set time-frame.

As they've explained it so far, it's a superfluous and needlessly intrusive system that functions more like a virtual baby-sitter than it does a game feature.



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#4 Aug 26 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hate to come off like an a-hole, but honestly if SE was really concerned about preserving the gaming experience for casuals, they would institute "Rested Exp" like most MMORPGs released in the last few years.

I had a fantastic time in the beta, but the release of FFXIV feels pretty rushed at the moment. Surplus is most likely SE's way of slowing down the hardcore players so they don't grind to cap before the game has been out more than a month and turn away potential customers by complaining all over the internets about the total lack of endgame content in the initial release.
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#5 Aug 26 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
akirussan wrote:
Hate to come off like an a-hole, but honestly if SE was really concerned about preserving the gaming experience for casuals, they would institute "Rested Exp" like most MMORPGs released in the last few years.

I had a fantastic time in the beta, but the release of FFXIV feels pretty rushed at the moment. Surplus is most likely SE's way of slowing down the hardcore players so they don't grind to cap before the game has been out more than a month and turn away potential customers by complaining all over the internets about the total lack of endgame content in the initial release.


Yep. The other way they could do it is by making it take three times as long to get each level. Which wouldn't alienate the hardcore players but it sure would tick off the casual players.
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#6 Aug 26 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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To call the system arbitrary, I think you would have to demonstrate that there is no need to limit the speed at which people progress through the game. Since all MMORPGs do this, I think it's safe to call this need established. Now, you are left with the how:

Option 1: Tuning the level curve high
This is the Final Fantasy XI method. You create a steep leveling curve to keep your customers on their goal long enough to get a good return on your development dollar. Casual players find this very hostile, as they don't feel they can make any progress toward their goal.

Option 2: Tuning the level curve high, with a rested experience system
This is the WoW method. You give the casual players extra experience at the beginning of their sessions to help them progress toward their goal. The rested experience they receive depends on how long it has been since they last played. This gives a bonus to the casual player, while leaving hardcore players alone. Also, this is less beneficial to casual players if they play in short bursts, but play more often.

Option 3: Tuning the level curve low, with a cap placed on vertical progression over time
This is the Surplus Experience system in Final Fantasy XIV. It effectively limits the speed at which all players may progress to the maximum level. It allows all players to devote less time to "grinding" while leveling at a similar pace (real life time) as the other systems. This is beneficial to casual players as they can accomplish their goals in their limited playtime. It has the negative effect of putting a hard cap on vertical progression over time. Hardcore players find this hostile as they perceive no received benefit for the extra time they are willing and able to put in.

If this were any other game, then I would strongly agree that surplus was inappropriate, however this is not any other game. This is Final Fantasy XIV. Horizontal progression appears to be an essential component. You have dozens of ways you can spend your time, and they all benefit you. You are essentially being given free time to farm, gather, craft, or level an alt class (whose abilities you can use). If that just isn't good enough for you, this system allows you to battle on after hitting the cap and close your eyes after each fight, pretending that you're gaining levels at the same rate you would be if this game had a more traditional progression system.
#7 Aug 27 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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@bunsisbuns

You are just forgetting that "being able to stand up to THE GRIND" is what makes hardcore players so "hardcore", at least in their definition. In another thread, there was some guy who lamented that "now there is no more way to distinguish a noob from superior players like me, because we all progress at the same rate". Fast levelups is the thing those guys live on. Like medals for marine. Content and story, and even teamplay outside the borders of your own degenerated clan/group of nerds and such simple things as "playing for the sake of having fun" become secondary at that point. For them, it's to a much larger degree about the reward of being "superior", "better", "leet", "the first to the top" and "the only ones". Which doesn't go too well with FFs focus on friendly cooperation in the first place.

In my opinion, they would be better of with a game that is more focused on PvP (or group vs group) elements in the first place; but then again, maybe they fear the "real" competition by other hardcore players in games like Eve, Aion, and, concerning PvP, even WoW, and thus flee to a less competitive environment like FF? You know, better be a big fish in a little pond than...?

Those who are most adamantly against the surplus system always claim there is no need to (benefit to) limit the "hardcores" from progressing as fast as they like. That is not entirely true. For every "hardcore" player that loves the fact he can "dominate" the high level content (equipment/story/levels) there are 10 "casuals" who are not happy at all that they will, in all likelyhood, never have access to more than half of the storyline content there is, simply because the "hardcores" burn through the content so fast that developers are required to throw in new stuff at a rate and difficulty (and most of all: spare time requirement) that requires you to play more than 24 hours a week to keep up.

Btw, the hardcore obsession with maximally efficient and fast progression also killed off concepts like Skillchains, tanking and experimentation. Because whacking little pink birds for 1000 hours straight will bring you closer to the magic cap a bit faster. In turn, of course, the magic cap had to be raised for everyone. I'm not so sure I would entrust those guys the future of the MMORPG I'd like to play for its unique storyline content (which I expect there to be eventually).
#8 Aug 27 2010 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
@bunsisbuns

You are just forgetting that "being able to stand up to THE GRIND" is what makes hardcore players so "hardcore", at least in their definition. In another thread, there was some guy who lamented that "now there is no more way to distinguish a noob from superior players like me, because we all progress at the same rate". Fast levelups is the thing those guys live on. Like medals for marine. Content and story, and even teamplay outside the borders of your own degenerated clan/group of nerds and such simple things as "playing for the sake of having fun" become secondary at that point. For them, it's to a much larger degree about the reward of being "superior", "better", "leet", "the first to the top" and "the only ones". Which doesn't go too well with FFs focus on friendly cooperation in the first place.

In my opinion, they would be better of with a game that is more focused on PvP (or group vs group) elements in the first place; but then again, maybe they fear the "real" competition by other hardcore players in games like Eve, Aion, and, concerning PvP, even WoW, and thus flee to a less competitive environment like FF? You know, better be a big fish in a little pond than...?

Those who are most adamantly against the surplus system always claim there is no need to (benefit to) limit the "hardcores" from progressing as fast as they like. That is not entirely true. For every "hardcore" player that loves the fact he can "dominate" the high level content (equipment/story/levels) there are 10 "casuals" who are not happy at all that they will, in all likelyhood, never have access to more than half of the storyline content there is, simply because the "hardcores" burn through the content so fast that developers are required to throw in new stuff at a rate and difficulty (and most of all: spare time requirement) that requires you to play more than 24 hours a week to keep up.

Btw, the hardcore obsession with maximally efficient and fast progression also killed off concepts like Skillchains, tanking and experimentation. Because whacking little pink birds for 1000 hours straight will bring you closer to the magic cap a bit faster. In turn, of course, the magic cap had to be raised for everyone. I'm not so sure I would entrust those guys the future of the MMORPG I'd like to play for its unique storyline content (which I expect there to be eventually).


Wow you can almost feel the bitterness and anger in that post.

You are doing what you're accusing the hardcores of doing, taking a game way too seriously.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#9 Aug 27 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Nah.
I'm just accusing them of taking the "game" out of "the game" ^.^/
#10 Aug 27 2010 at 1:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Nah.
I'm just accusing them of taking the "game" out of "the game" ^.^/


I thought it was a good post. That kind of mindset definitely added to FFXI feeling more like a job rather than being fun. I'm hopeful that doesn't happen in XIV. And while many people say they agree, they still seem to want to carry that over into XIV nonetheless. I get a kick out of some of the LS recruitment threads that pop up now & then speaking of dominating the game and wanting me to fill out a job application to join...
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#11 Aug 27 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Default
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The system isn't arbitrary-- there are many good reasons for it. While it's understandable that you might not agree with those reasons, it's still not an arbitrary restriction. Restrictions are essential to games-- otherwise you're a god in a sandbox and there is no challenge to be overcome.

I really think this only hurts the people who want to race to cap, and those people should just try to take the opportunity to appreciate the lower level content as the system intends them to. I know lots of people were planning to level their Lancer to cap within the first couple of weeks or so, and in earning those misplaced bragging rights, cheating themselves out of a lot of the game's content. So I actually don't feel too bad for them. It's in their own best interest so long as they can appreciate it for what it is-- a chance to do a variety of things without significantly impeding their race to the end.
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#12 Aug 27 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Decent
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@TwistedOwl

You mean posts like this one ^.^/?

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/97317-Equinox-Premier-Hardcore-Linkshell-(Also-seeking-crafters)

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:35am by Rinsui
#13 Aug 27 2010 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
@TwistedOwl

You mean posts like this one ^.^/?

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/97317-Equinox-Premier-Hardcore-Linkshell-(Also-seeking-crafters)

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:35am by Rinsui


Wow, yeah exactly like that. I see those and I have to wonder if they're a joke at first because that's exactly what I would make as a joke LS recruitment thread to poke fun at people treating the game like a job. No offense to the hardcore/serious folk here at zam, but it's definitely not for me.
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#14 Aug 27 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Default
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I couldnt resist and added a new coment to that recruitment post. Will possibly get me another temporary ban (or this time even a permanent one) - but that's what I'm ready to I pay for having fun. \(^o^)/


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:48am by Rinsui
#15 Aug 27 2010 at 1:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Another one of these threads. I suppose I'm still on the side against the surplus system, at least they way it seems to be implemented. I understand this game is apparently pushing for horizontal character progression, but just how horizontal are they going to push me? What if I don't want to use every craft, play every job, do every side quest, etc.? I enjoy exploring and looking around for content, but I sincerely enjoy my vertical progression as I tend to only play 1 job (and I did, playing Summoner exclusively for over 6 years in FFXI). Am I a hardcore player? I suppose it depends on what you define as hard core, god knows I don't know. I'm not in a race to the top level, but if I should happen to have a nice vacation or a free weekend, I'd like to know I have the liberty to do a bit of adventuring and grinding assured that my character progression doesn't come to a screeching halt, forcing me to do something else I didn't really care to do.

Now I'm going to play this game, and see just how much of an effect if any this is going to have on me. But if anything, there is only 1 real reason I do not like this surplus system. From what I've seen, if I'm going about on my adventure and I see something along the lines of:

You gain 300 points of polearm skill points.
You gain 200 surplus points of polearm skill points.

Where are my "surplus" points going? I feel it is wrong to simply take my points and throw them in the garbage because they feel I don't have the right to progress further in level. If they conceive of a way to benefit from my surplus points in a way that is fair to both "casual" and "hard core" gamers, I think I'll be fine. If not, I will be disappointed.
#16 Aug 27 2010 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Limbus. At the moment that's where they are going.
Once they implement Limbus into FFXIV, maybe then you can reclaim then.

But seriously: I do understand your point (I think), and partially I agree. I also don't like the notion of "having to play job X when all I want is to play job Y. But I guess that's the game. And I can live with that.

At the moment - it seems - you can progress hardcore only horizontally. Level 12 jobs to cap in a time a casual could barely level 1. Then again, this will give you access to skill ("subjob") combinations a casual will never have. That's the part the casual in me doesn't like. But it's a compromise I can live with.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 4:09am by Rinsui
#17 Aug 27 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Good
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I've said this before and I'll just post it again here: they made FFXIV for Final Fantasy fans, this is why this system will succeed largely. FFXIV has no chance of failing because they have in no doubt made the ultimate casual online role playing game and at the same time there is plenty of room in there to add hardcore content to the mix with the guildleve system in place. This is the best thing any Final Fantasy fan can ask for.

EDIT: adding onto this a little...**** in FFXI I managed to play the game for 3 years and some odd months and I didn't even make it past rank 6, for those on the outside, this means I didn't finish the storyline. Its not because it wasn't interesting, because in all honesty the first 6 ranks are the best storytelling I have ever seen in an MMO. This also isn't because I sucked - but its because everything was very hard to accomplish, very time consuming...I loved FFXI and I put a lot of time into it but unless you were extremely committed, you didn't get much accomplished. FFXIV will change all that and I think that's awesome.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 4:29am by SolidMack
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#18 Aug 27 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
adding onto this a little...**** in FFXI I managed to play the game for 3 years and some odd months and I didn't even make it past rank 6, for those on the outside, this means I didn't finish the storyline. Its not because it wasn't interesting, because in all honesty the first 6 ranks are the best storytelling I have ever seen in an MMO. This also isn't because I sucked - but its because everything was very hard to accomplish, very time consuming...I loved FFXI and I put a lot of time into it but unless you were extremely committed, you didn't get much accomplished. FFXIV will change all that and I think that's awesome.


Not to disagree with you, but putting a big stop sign on our vertical progression doesn't necessarily mean things in FFXIV won't be time consuming or hard to do. For all we know, the quests to progress through the story line could be just as long and just as taxing. It just means people can't level 1 particular job, skill, etc. to their liking as far as I can see.
#19 Aug 27 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Not to disagree with you, but putting a big stop sign on our vertical progression doesn't necessarily mean things in FFXIV won't be time consuming or hard to do. For all we know, the quests to progress through the story line could be just as long and just as taxing. It just means people can't level 1 particular job, skill, etc. to their liking as far as I can see.


No I understand but I'm assuming that the surplus system is in place so that instead of it taking me, the player, 2 000 000 xp to reach max level, It will only take me 500 000 xp (as an example)...a more attainable number for almost anyone who spends any time in the game. In FFXI I was considered committed to the game, hardcore more or less, and still I didn't manage to dissect all the game had to offer. In this way the game will allow casuals and hardcore to reach end game and get to experience whatever the game has for them...at least that's how I view it right now, and it makes sense to me now, but we'll see how it all plays out.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 4:44am by SolidMack
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#20 Aug 27 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Amen ^.^
#21 Aug 27 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I think this is a good thing. For one, SE could be doing this because they currently don't have end-game content prepared yet, so they don't want the hardcore gamers to "pwn you noobs".

Long story short, if this game turns out to be just for the casual gamer, I'm fine with it. I wasted enough of my life on FFXI being hardcore that I never want to live that life again. I think a few hours a day would benefit us a bit more as far as getting back to OUR real life instead of sitting in front of a computer/ps3 (sorry x box) all day. And before the comments to that last sentence pop up saying "Dude, you have control over logging off", go check your hours played on FFXI, then proceed to STFU.

Oh, btw, by doing other activities, you can refresh your "fatigue"...learn to read.
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#22SolidMack, Posted: Aug 27 2010 at 4:02 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I showed up to 1 class of my 6 class schedule during grade 12 because of FFXI, it was nothing short of a miracle I passed that year of high school. After quitting FFXI, as much as I loved the game, I never wanted to go back (although there were times I was draw in again)...I'm completely with you on this - a casual MMO, why not.
#23 Aug 27 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
SolidMack wrote:
a casual MMO, why not.


Because every other MMO lets you progress vertically and ONLY vertically so why should I pay for a game that will let me progress just as fast but only on a different axis?

Smiley: dubious


Seriously though - the people that are complaining that they just want to level 1 class - they want to play the wrong MMO - it would be like me complaining that WoW won't let my gnome be a paladin - or switch from warlock to mage or whatever whenever I want.

This is a game made for people that want lots of flexibility - lots of different skills on one character. In a perfect world perhaps everyone would like every system in every game.

However in the real world there are a lot of games that don't suit certain types of players. There isn't much that can be done about that.
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#24 Aug 27 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Default
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Seriously though - the people that are complaining that they just want to level 1 class - they want to play the wrong MMO


If you don't like it then leave. Never gets old... :/
#25 Aug 27 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Seriously though - the people that are complaining that they just want to level 1 class - they want to play the wrong MMO - it would be like me complaining that WoW won't let my gnome be a paladin - or switch from warlock to mage or whatever whenever I want.

This is a game made for people that want lots of flexibility - lots of different skills on one character. In a perfect world perhaps everyone would like every system in every game.

However in the real world there are a lot of games that don't suit certain types of players. There isn't much that can be done about that.


+1 (+2 if I could)

The way I see all this is that we need to stop thinking about FFXIV in the traditional MMORPG way. SE is giving us a completely different experience with this game. I truly believe, with the way classes are set up to utilize abilities from each other, that a player who spends time spreading their levels out among several classes will be far better off than the player who chooses only one class to level. It really seems like this is what SE is striving for.

I can also understand that people aren't going to like that play style, different strokes for different folks, no one really wants to be told how to play a game they are paying good money for. I would say to those people to at least give it a try before they give up on the game completely. A lot of development has gone into this game and I really believe it will be amazing even if it takes a bit of time to get things ironed out after release.
#26 Aug 27 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Seriously though - the people that are complaining that they just want to level 1 class - they want to play the wrong MMO


If you don't like it then leave. Never gets old... :/


Seriously though - I didn't enjoy WoW. Instead of asking the developers to remake the game (possibly breaking it for people who DO like it) I decided not to play. The fact is not everyone is going to like every game. If you don't like this system I can't help you much.

It isn't as though if you just convinced me surplus is a horrible system that SE is going to change their mind about this. F

rankly - I think they have designed the game with this system in mind. I severely doubt they are going to rip it out - and if they do - players like me - who would rather play a game where you get new fun abilities all the time at the cost of not being able to zerg level 1 ability to endgame with huge leveling time sinks, will be sacrificed.

Pretty much every other game on the market is designed with people zerg leveling one job or class to endgame. Why is it such a bad thing if just ONE MMO on the market does something differently. If you don't like it there are tons of other MMOs that will let you zerg to endgame on 1 class. Like every mmo.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#27 Aug 27 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
Kegoru wrote:

The way I see all this is that we need to stop thinking about FFXIV in the traditional MMORPG way. SE is giving us a completely different experience with this game. I truly believe, with the way classes are set up to utilize abilities from each other, that a player who spends time spreading their levels out among several classes will be far better off than the player who chooses only one class to level. It really seems like this is what SE is striving for.

I can also understand that people aren't going to like that play style, different strokes for different folks, no one really wants to be told how to play a game they are paying good money for. I would say to those people to at least give it a try before they give up on the game completely. A lot of development has gone into this game and I really believe it will be amazing even if it takes a bit of time to get things ironed out after release.


This is just it - hardcore players will still be able to play all week if they want. The only difference is their level progression will be horizontal, not vertical. They will still be reawrded for the time they put in. The only difference is people who can play less will get to enjoy getting new abilities more frequently in the time they have instead of endlessly grinding for 1 level a week.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#28 Aug 27 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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I think the issue for hardcores could be easily be fixed if the game allowed you to chose to play in "Hardcore" mode. If you wanted to play in this mode you would never see "surplus exp". The only difference would would be that the exp needed to reach the next level would be multiplied by fourteen for the hardcores. I chose fourteen since we get about 12 hours of exp before surplus stops advancement. In a week there are fourteen twelve hour periods. This would allow the "hardcores" to grind 24 hours a day, seven days a week and still preserve the leveling rate that the game wants. Of course you would need to give them a little * by there name so everyone would know they did it the hard way.
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#29 Aug 27 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you don't like it there are tons of other MMOs that will let you zerg to endgame on 1 class. Like every mmo.


Who said anything about zerging to end game? I just think this is a poor way to "encourage" people to try various content.

Edit: @Tacotaru
The surplus isn't necessarily related to time, its a set amount of exp.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 1:03pm by ThePacster
#30 Aug 27 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Seriously though - the people that are complaining that they just want to level 1 class - they want to play the wrong MMO


If you don't like it then leave. Never gets old... :/


Seriously though - I didn't enjoy WoW. Instead of asking the developers to remake the game (possibly breaking it for people who DO like it) I decided not to play. The fact is not everyone is going to like every game. If you don't like this system I can't help you much.

It isn't as though if you just convinced me surplus is a horrible system that SE is going to change their mind about this. F

rankly - I think they have designed the game with this system in mind. I severely doubt they are going to rip it out - and if they do - players like me - who would rather play a game where you get new fun abilities all the time at the cost of not being able to zerg level 1 ability to endgame with huge leveling time sinks, will be sacrificed.

Pretty much every other game on the market is designed with people zerg leveling one job or class to endgame. Why is it such a bad thing if just ONE MMO on the market does something differently. If you don't like it there are tons of other MMOs that will let you zerg to endgame on 1 class. Like every mmo.


Sorry to be trite, but that's a false dilemma.



Edited, Aug 27th 2010 1:15pm by Eske
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#31 Aug 27 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's truly socialism at its best. It's forcing equality in the game by forcing people to use their time for other things, like crafting, farming etc. so that the game isn't dominated by the few and everyone is good at everything. Since we will have a billion blacksmiths per server now instead of just 5, we will get to purchase our endgame weapon for 1 gil instead of 1 million. YAY
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#32 Aug 27 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
@TwistedOwl

You mean posts like this one ^.^/?

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/97317-Equinox-Premier-Hardcore-Linkshell-(Also-seeking-crafters)

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:35am by Rinsui


Suirin wrote:
Etheria wrote:

It's unfortunate but it looks like we lost our alchemist due to real life issues. So we are looking for a pristine alchemist application to replace him!


That's unfortunate. Did he discover he actually had a real life or what?


That's the last two posts on the thread, it just cracks me up...
#33 Aug 27 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's truly socialism at its best. It's forcing equality in the game by forcing people to use their time for other things, like crafting, farming etc. so that the game isn't dominated by the few and everyone is good at everything. Since we will have a billion blacksmiths per server now instead of just 5, we will get to purchase our endgame weapon for 1 gil instead of 1 million. YAY


As Per Merriam Webster:
Definition of SOCIALISM
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Definition of CAPITALISM
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

---

Nope, doesn't sound like socialism to me. Limitations are capitalistic, not socialistic. Socialistic environments are unlimited equality, Capitalistic environments are limited equality as stated by distributing body.

Sorry, common misconception. The feature you are looking for is actually the third definition of Socialism. You want to have limitless return for limitless work. This is the most direct definition of marxism.

SE has actually created a more capitalistic environment through this. By creating an environment where supply and demand are controlled, skill and accomplishment are paramount to dedication (I can't tell you how many times I have heard the saying work smarter not harder).
#34 Aug 27 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Can you please post the definition of sarcasm too
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#35 Aug 27 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Can you please post the definition of sarcasm too


If only someone could code a sarcasm detector for forums.

Sarcasm detector? That's a REAL useful invention. *computer explodes*
#36 Aug 27 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Can you please post the definition of sarcasm too


I would, but than I would have to start quoting Alanis Morissette... And well, that's just too much for a Friday.

GAH, now I have that dang song stuck in my head:(
#37 Aug 27 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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The stupid thing about all this is the people who defend this system as some kind of encouragement to level more classes. To be frank I intended on leveling most (if not all) my classes up anyways, I just don't like the idea that if I should choose to take a couple of days to rank up a particular class I can't because I'll hit the surplus cap. Encouraging people to play different classes and punishing them if they don't are two very different things that SE (and some raging SE fanbois) seem to lack the ability to grasp.
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#38 Aug 27 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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They just don't want super insane hard core freaks to be maxed out while 80% of the servers are still not even half way levelled while working through the game at a normal pace. Why is this so hard to comprehend? They are only alienating a small percentage of their player base in an effort to maximize the fun for the larger percentage.

Really, for every messageboard loudmouth there are probably 50 satisfied subscribers. This is why SE either seems to ignore you or throw you a unsatisfying bone.
#39 Aug 27 2010 at 2:45 PM Rating: Default
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Wow no matter how much you tell people that surplus xp isn't going to be a big deal if its anything as it was in beta, they still only wish to hear what they want to hear and discard everything else. Some of you people need more than video games in your life and you'll be ok.

Quote:
Encouraging people to play different classes and punishing them if they don't are two very different things that SE (and some raging SE fanbois) seem to lack the ability to grasp.


The only raging fanboys I see here are the ones against surplus xp. The ones "with it" are just "the cup is half full" kind of people...in all seriousness though, when half of the complainers haven't even played the game, they're in no position to say anything about surplus xp and how it will affect them. Again, a little less gaming in your life and a little more of everything - cuz while we're raging, you're running around sub-defaulting every post you don't like even though that's not what the rating system in ZAM is there for.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 4:49pm by SolidMack
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#40 Aug 27 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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SolidMack wrote:
Wow no matter how much you tell people that surplus xp isn't going to be a big deal if its anything as it was in beta, they still only wish to hear what they want to hear and discard everything else. Some of you people need more than video games in your life and you'll be ok.


I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, but suggesting that people who disagree you need to "get a life" is not going to endear anyone to your point.
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#41 Aug 27 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, but suggesting that people who disagree you need to "get a life" is not going to endear anyone to your point.


Don't worry you can sleep easy, I wasn't talking about you...and I don't want to "endear" anyone to my point...this conversation is getting very old anyway. And I play video games quite a bit, I meant they need to stop acting as if video games are their life rather than a hobby, surplus xp isn't going to kill anyone any time soon.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 4:59pm by SolidMack

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 5:03pm by SolidMack
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#42 Aug 27 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
SolidMack wrote:
cuz while we're raging, you're running around sub-defaulting every post you don't like even though that's not what the rating system in ZAM is there for.



Yeah I must have gone from sage to scholar about 10 times in the last two days.

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#43 Aug 27 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
Wow no matter how much you tell people that surplus xp isn't going to be a big deal if its anything as it was in beta, they still only wish to hear what they want to hear and discard everything else. Some of you people need more than video games in your life and you'll be ok.


I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, but suggesting that people who disagree you need to "get a life" is not going to endear anyone to your point.


Sounds like frustration setting in because these discussions seem like we're running in circles. In between the well thought out posts helping to explain things one way or another, there's a large group of people who seem to ignore all of it and simply act like a it's an us vs them discussion. No information is going to change their perception of the issue.
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#44 Aug 27 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
TwistedOwl wrote:


Sounds like frustration setting in because these discussions seem like we're running in circles. In between the well thought out posts helping to explain things one way or another, there's a large group of people who seem to ignore all of it and simply act like a it's an us vs them discussion. No information is going to change their perception of the issue.


What is particularly frustrating is that I almost feel like people are taking their anger out on those that don't see surplus as a big problem. Like if only we didn't believe the system wasn't a problem SE would change their minds.

I am pretty sure that regardless of what anyone thinks SE is going to keep this system, so it hardly seems like attacking those who think it may actually be either neutral or even good is worthwhile.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#45 Aug 27 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, but suggesting that people who disagree you need to "get a life" is not going to endear anyone to your point.


Don't worry you can sleep easy, I wasn't talking about you...and I don't want to "endear" anyone to my point...this conversation is getting very old anyway. And I play video games quite a bit, I meant they need to stop acting as if video games are their life rather than a hobby, surplus xp isn't going to kill anyone any time soon.


I didn't think you were. Just pointing out that you really shouldn't go all ad hominem on people just because you don't like their point of view. Nobody I've heard here has said anything that indicates that they take video games too seriously. We're on a video game forum, after all...the conversation scales to fit the subject matter.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 5:20pm by Eske
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#46 Aug 27 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:


Sounds like frustration setting in because these discussions seem like we're running in circles. In between the well thought out posts helping to explain things one way or another, there's a large group of people who seem to ignore all of it and simply act like a it's an us vs them discussion. No information is going to change their perception of the issue.


What is particularly frustrating is that I almost feel like people are taking their anger out on those that don't see surplus as a big problem. Like if only we didn't believe the system wasn't a problem SE would change their minds.

I am pretty sure that regardless of what anyone thinks SE is going to keep this system, so it hardly seems like attacking those who think it may actually be either neutral or even good is worthwhile.


I don't think anyone should be attacking anyone either, though for the most part I feel that conversation has been pretty civil both ways. For what it's worth, I think you and TwistedOwl have both been polite about your point of view (probably not an easy task, all things considered).
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#47 Aug 27 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
Glad you noticed. I did try but it is hard because people who are angry really just don't want to hear a point of view which negates their anger. Some people also have less problem with it for themselves but have had friends cancel their preorders - which if you were looking forward to playing with people - that would suck.

Unfortunately canceled preorders and the like are probably more an indication of the overreaction of the community rather than an indication of the scope of the actual problem in how it will affect the average player.
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#48 Aug 27 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Indeed it's been tough to not join in with the flame wars and stoop down to the childish level some took it to with rate-downs & such. Olorinus felt that worse than anybody I think lol...if you look around the various posts they've changed from scholar to sage so often this week. We haven't agreed very often on this Eske, but we've been able to avoid it gettin' ugly which is great...
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#49 Aug 27 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's easy to see why people are getting so flared up over the whole thing. Here is a game that many have already invested a lot of time and maybe even money (upgrading their computer) and are planning on investing even more time and money into over the next few years. Combine that with the way SE really kind of dropped the ball with this whole (no explanation about the whole system until it was too late) tempers can begin to flare. I think we all just need to take a step back and breathe before we start flaming and pushing those little red arrows.
#50 Aug 27 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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I agree that SE totally dropped the ball with the way they treated the community on this one. I also agree that I would not be happy to be one of the people who built a computer specifically for this game, then found out about surplus and didn't like what they heard. I hope that SE will find a way to make this negatively impact as few people as possible while preserving the positive aspects of it. As it stands, it's probably not as good as I think it is, nor is it probably as bad as some people think.
#51 Aug 27 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I didn't think you were. Just pointing out that you really shouldn't go all ad hominem on people just because you don't like their point of view. Nobody I've heard here has said anything that indicates that they take video games too seriously. We're on a video game forum, after all...the conversation scales to fit the subject matter.


I wasn't getting argumentative with anyone because of that, I was however upset that when someone doesn't like my opinion they rate me down, so now we're not allowed to have an opinion on the matter any more. Please try and understand what i'm saying before trying to set me straight here.
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