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#52 Aug 27 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
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I didn't think you were. Just pointing out that you really shouldn't go all ad hominem on people just because you don't like their point of view. Nobody I've heard here has said anything that indicates that they take video games too seriously. We're on a video game forum, after all...the conversation scales to fit the subject matter.


I wasn't getting argumentative with anyone because of that, I was however upset that when someone doesn't like my opinion they rate me down, so now we're not allowed to have an opinion on the matter any more. Please try and understand what i'm saying before trying to set me straight here.


Ok, I understand that. I don't like it when folks express disagreement by anonymously rating down either. But if I may, a little advice: reacting that way to rate-downs will just exacerbate the problem, trust me.

Haters gon' hate, as they say. Smiley: wink You'll find that if you're as polite and respectful as possible, the odd rate-down will amount to nothing over time.
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#53 Aug 27 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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I want to thank everyone for responding to this post. I am still intrested in some constructive Critisism on the pros and cons of a system like this. And remember.. this is still in BETA and even after release things can still chance. Also id like to note.. even with the flare up of opinions, we still managed to keep it fairly civil. I do admitt and agree that it can be limiting in VERTICAL growth. I think a major concern comes down the HARDCORE feeling that SE is trying to dictate how they play the game. To be fair.. every game or even life has these types of restrictions(yes even if were paying money). It doesnt mean we have to like it one bit. But we have a choice to make the best of what is given us. This is going to be an awesome game in my opinion. Alot of unique idea's.

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#54 Aug 27 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Indeed it's been tough to not join in with the flame wars and stoop down to the childish level some took it to with rate-downs & such. Olorinus felt that worse than anybody I think lol...if you look around the various posts they've changed from scholar to sage so often this week. We haven't agreed very often on this Eske, but we've been able to avoid it gettin' ugly which is great...


Yeah, it's nice. It might sound odd, but I actually like it when we've got some controversy here. It makes things more exciting; I like debating stuff.
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#55 Aug 27 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just a couple of things to clarify:

1.) I am in fact in the beta and have hit surplus. I have experience with the system and I know what I'm talking about when I make a statement about it. I leveled several jobs in the beta (LNC, PUG, THM, CON, Weaver, Leather, Mining, Blacksmithing) and I still ran into Surplus on more than one job in a matter of 3 or 4 days. Anything that I say is either personal experience or opinions about specific statements made by others. (Be it by other players, other ZAMmers, or by SE and their staff).

2.) Anyone who uses an excuse to justify a punitive system of experience gain that involves it "being good for us" or "encouraging us to get off the computer" or "get a life" loses all credibility with me right away.

3.) I have never rated you (or anyone) down because I disagree with a well thought out, well researched, thoughtful opinion. I do rate people down because of misinformation, insults, or general ***-hattery.

4.) I have never rated you down period. But if someone does choose to rate you down for whatever reason (no matter how immature or frivolous), GET OVER IT. Despite what you may think, you will not die because someone rates you down on an internet forum.
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#56 Aug 27 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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SickleSageKiroh wrote:
Just a couple of things to clarify:

1.) I am in fact in the beta and have hit surplus. I have experience with the system and I know what I'm talking about when I make a statement about it. I leveled several jobs in the beta (LNC, PUG, THM, CON, Weaver, Leather, Mining, Blacksmithing) and I still ran into Surplus on more than one job in a matter of 3 or 4 days. Anything that I say is either personal experience or opinions about specific statements made by others. (Be it by other players, other ZAMmers, or by SE and their staff).

2.) Anyone who uses an excuse to justify a punitive system of experience gain that involves it "being good for us" or "encouraging us to get off the computer" or "get a life" loses all credibility with me right away.

3.) I have never rated you (or anyone) down because I disagree with a well thought out, well researched, thoughtful opinion. I do rate people down because of misinformation, insults, or general ***-hattery.

4.) I have never rated you down period. But if someone does choose to rate you down for whatever reason (no matter how immature or frivolous), GET OVER IT. Despite what you may think, you will not die because someone rates you down on an internet forum.


Did you level these classes equally? When you were dealing with surplus, what were your class levels? How many hours per day did you play, ex. Monday - 5, Tuesday -6, etc.
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#57 Aug 27 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just a couple of things to clarify:

1.) I am in fact in the beta and have hit surplus. I have experience with the system and I know what I'm talking about when I make a statement about it. I leveled several jobs in the beta (LNC, PUG, THM, CON, Weaver, Leather, Mining, Blacksmithing) and I still ran into Surplus on more than one job in a matter of 3 or 4 days. Anything that I say is either personal experience or opinions about specific statements made by others. (Be it by other players, other ZAMmers, or by SE and their staff).

2.) Anyone who uses an excuse to justify a punitive system of experience gain that involves it "being good for us" or "encouraging us to get off the computer" or "get a life" loses all credibility with me right away.

3.) I have never rated you (or anyone) down because I disagree with a well thought out, well researched, thoughtful opinion. I do rate people down because of misinformation, insults, or general ***-hattery.

4.) I have never rated you down period. But if someone does choose to rate you down for whatever reason (no matter how immature or frivolous), GET OVER IT. Despite what you may think, you will not die because someone rates you down on an internet forum.


Remember this is BETA... they are counting on your feedback to adjust these levels. I guarantee its not easy to find a happy medium for everyone. One statement was made that the exp was not ajusted correctly on easy mobs. It was giving everyone way to much exp per kill, thus causing people to reach Surplus too soon. Have patience.. it will be adjusted, maybe not to your 100% liking, but to an acceptable level. If we post something negative about something we didnt like.. lets all try and post something that we DID like.
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#58SolidMack, Posted: Aug 27 2010 at 5:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This wasn't my point at all but it seemed to have went over your head...it doesn't matter anyway. Aslo, glad you played beta, so did I and a million other people on these forums now, so everyone "knows what they're talking about" when it comes to surplus xp - but mostly everyone just thinks they know what they're talking about. All I was saying in this topic is that we'll see how everything plays out in the long run - a few weeks of beta doesn't give you the whole picture. That's it.
#59 Aug 27 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I want to thank everyone for responding to this post. I am still intrested in some constructive Critisism on the pros and cons of a system like this. And remember.. this is still in BETA and even after release things can still chance. Also id like to note.. even with the flare up of opinions, we still managed to keep it fairly civil. I do admitt and agree that it can be limiting in VERTICAL growth. I think a major concern comes down the HARDCORE feeling that SE is trying to dictate how they play the game. To be fair.. every game or even life has these types of restrictions(yes even if were paying money). It doesnt mean we have to like it one bit. But we have a choice to make the best of what is given us. This is going to be an awesome game in my opinion. Alot of unique idea's.


I'll try to add some constructive stuff to your post, because it was an interesting read, and this has become just like the rest of the posts on the subject.

I would like to disagree with your point that "every game has these types of restrictions". Every game has restrictions, but nothing I've ever seen has had one this large, and game changing. Just about every game I've played, has let you download the software, start you off at level 1, and let you go from there. This is the first time I've seen a game fundamentally change the gameplay based on how much time you've spent.

Another thing I'd like to comment on, is the ideas of Vertical and Horizontal progression/growth. I hate the terms, and at the end of the day, I feel I should get to do what I want with my character, and spend my time as I choose. Saying it promotes Horizontal progression instead of Vertical progression implies that its just as useful/fulfilling/enjoyable, when its not. One of my favorite parts of games is to see new content, I don't like the idea of running 6 classes in the same area all week, before spending all next week in a different one.


Anyways, I'll add some pros and cons now.


Pros:

Possibly less time spent leveling each job. I say possibly, because I'm not sure how this will work out, and if its really better than the freedom to level at will.
Honestly this is the only pro I can even think of.

Cons:

Hitting ceilings, and/or getting stuck behind friends.
Being stuck in the same area for a while.
keeping multiple sets of gear/equipment.
possibly getting stuck playing classes one doesn't like (eg. someone only wants to level DoM)




Now I'd like to criticize some of your pros and cons, that I see holes in.

Quote:
*More time farming\gaining money.. thus better gear


this isn't necessarily true. Had you been able to continue leveling, you could be able to farm more valuable things, in addition to getting XP.

Quote:
Better understand of game and(hopefully)better at the game


while I agree with a better understanding of other classes basics, I don't find that redoing content will give you better understanding of the game as a whole.

Quote:
More Story unlocked


I believe the story/missions are going to be closer tied to physical level, and not having more classes, so I don't think this is true at all.

Quote:
More friends


It doesn't matter which levels you meet people at, you're likely encountering people at all levels.





Anyways, I hope this does come across as constructive, it was my intent, but I am dead set against the system, and its alot easier to find flaws in something when you don't like it.
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#60 Aug 27 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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The classes were not leveled equally, mostly because crafting is such a pain. >_<
Conjurer was 16, PUG was 13, THM was 12. Those were the only 3 classes I hit surplus on. The crafting classes were all under level 5 as well as LNC.


I played about 6-8 hours per day for 3 days and about 3 hours the 4th day. Conjurer went from 12-16 grinding through surplus. The first day was almost entirely Conjurer (6 hours) and Weaver for an hour or so, 2nd day was Conjurer for 3 hours, Thaum for 4 hours, another hour or so spent crafting (leather and weaver). 3rd day was PUG for 2 and a half hours, LNC for an hour or so, Conjurer for about 2 hours (no leveling on CON, spent most of my time on conjurer that day curing random people and chatting). And the last day I spent another 2 hours on PUG and about an hour on Thaum (spent like 30 minutes on mining before I got tired of it xD).

Conjurer went from 12 to 16 grinding through surplus before I hit so much that I couldn't take it anymore, Thaum hit surplus sometime during 11 (I didn't even notice until I was about to log) and PUG hit it right before I hit 12.

Edit: I'm happy to see OB starting soon so I can see if they decided to do anything to/with surplus xp. Hoping they do something good.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:53pm by SickleSageKiroh
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#61 Aug 27 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
KujaKoF wrote:
Saying it promotes Horizontal progression instead of Vertical progression implies that its just as useful/fulfilling/enjoyable, when its not.


It may not be more useful/fulfilling/enjoyable to you, but to be fair, others think differently. There is no right or wrong about it - it is a personal taste issue. Pretending that it is a fact that progression along a vertical axis is better than progression on a horizontal or diagonal axis doesn't really add anything to the debate.
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#62 Aug 27 2010 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

It may not be more useful/fulfilling/enjoyable to you, but to be fair, others think differently. There is no right or wrong about it - it is a personal taste issue. Pretending that it is a fact that progression along a vertical axis is better than progression on a horizontal or diagonal axis doesn't really add anything to the debate.


Ok but my point is people who do enjoy what you call horizontal progression can do so with/without surplus. People who don't like it, don't get that option. This I don't find all that fair.

As to your axis comment, trying to apply math to "horizontal" and "vertical" progression, which are just nicknames for 2 types of game play progress is irrelevant.
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#63 Aug 27 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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SickleSageKiroh wrote:
The classes were not leveled equally, mostly because crafting is such a pain. >_<
Conjurer was 16, PUG was 13, THM was 12. Those were the only 3 classes I hit surplus on. The crafting classes were all under level 5 as well as LNC.


I played about 6-8 hours per day for 3 days and about 3 hours the 4th day. Conjurer went from 12-16 grinding through surplus. The first day was almost entirely Conjurer (6 hours) and Weaver for an hour or so, 2nd day was Conjurer for 3 hours, Thaum for 4 hours, another hour or so spent crafting (leather and weaver). 3rd day was PUG for 2 and a half hours, LNC for an hour or so, Conjurer for about 2 hours (no leveling on CON, spent most of my time on conjurer that day curing random people and chatting). And the last day I spent another 2 hours on PUG and about an hour on Thaum (spent like 30 minutes on mining before I got tired of it xD).

Conjurer went from 12 to 16 grinding through surplus before I hit so much that I couldn't take it anymore, Thaum hit surplus sometime during 11 (I didn't even notice until I was about to log) and PUG hit it right before I hit 12.

Edit: I'm happy to see OB starting soon so I can see if they decided to do anything to/with surplus xp. Hoping they do something good.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:53pm by SickleSageKiroh


The time you played doesn't suggest you'd be in surplus, but you must have had more success than I did grinding mobs. When I was playing, it was almost impossible to claim anything. However, I didn't get any higher than level 10.

I saw surplus at one point playing Gladiator, but this went away after a killed a mob of a different type, so I thought that had something to do with it, but it could have been my imagination. Or it could have been that it had been awhile before I could claim something. I do know that xp dropped after a good amount of time was spend grinding, and I thought it was because mobs were becoming easy prey.

They will obviously make and trial changes to the system as time goes by.

I will only be able to squeeze in 4 hours max per weekday and about 6-8 max on saturday and sunday, for a total of 36 possible hours maximum if I squeeze in every possible minute (no social life, no business trips, no vacations, no spending time with wife or son). Since 100% of my game time won't be grinding mobs, I think I'll be safe if no changes are made, but you never know. I am guessing they will improve the system based on all of the feedback, and provide more xp, but they probably won't get rid of it altogether.

I see you're from Mo-town, I'm from Fresno. Which server do you plan on choosing if you decide on sticking with the game?
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#64 Aug 27 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Well I will at least be playing the game for a little while just because I like the graphics/storyline, I'm not saying it's a bad game y'know? I just don't like or agree with that one particular aspect of gameplay.

I was gonna play on Gabranth because that was the server I played the CB on (it was the first on the list). I don't have any friends or family playing so I'll just go with whatever server I can meet lots of people on and have fun with.
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#65 Aug 27 2010 at 8:19 PM Rating: Default
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SolidMack
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Quote:
Quoted Text
I wasn't getting argumentative with anyone because of that, I was however upset that when someone doesn't like my opinion they rate me down, so now we're not allowed to have an opinion on the matter any more. Please try and understand what i'm saying before trying to set me straight here

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:20pm by Bezmir

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:23pm by Bezmir
Quote:
Quoted Text


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:23pm by Bezmir I lol everytime I see a rate up or rate down post.

Why would you even care if you are getting rated up or down?
I don't look at how others are rated before I read what they have to say.

I just don't understand why people take it so personal.
Can you explain this to me a little because I would really like know why.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:24pm by Bezmir

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:25pm by Bezmir
#66 Aug 27 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bezmir wrote:
SolidMack
Scholar

Quote:
Quoted Text
I wasn't getting argumentative with anyone because of that, I was however upset that when someone doesn't like my opinion they rate me down, so now we're not allowed to have an opinion on the matter any more. Please try and understand what i'm saying before trying to set me straight here

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:20pm by Bezmir

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:23pm by Bezmir
Quote:
Quoted Text


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:23pm by Bezmir I lol everytime I see a rate up or rate down post.

Why would you even care if you are getting rated up or down?
I don't look at how others are rated before I read what they have to say.

I just don't understand why people take it so personal.
Can you explain this to me a little because I would really like know why.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:24pm by Bezmir

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:25pm by Bezmir


Smiley: eek That was an epic quote fail!


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:30pm by Eske
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#67 Aug 27 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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*More time farming\gaining money.. thus better gear

Also not sure this is true. At least with gathering professions there is a harvesting cap you will hit. Some of us hit it and were conjecturing elsewhere.

This cap was confirmed in one of Mr. Komoto's statements, taken from beta site:
Quote:

The diminishing results experienced during gathering are a function related to that class alone, and have no connection to this progression system. We are in the process of adjusting this system, and plan to make changes based on tester feedback.


Now, whether that cap after they adjust it even affects me is something to test in open beta. It is a cap that sets in softly like the diminishing experience, you start to get failures. If you keep harvesting a long time after that you get mostly failures. I'm curious to track loot drop frequency over long playtimes in OB and see if that seems to have a rule of diminishing returns applied as well. All drops whether harvested or looted seem to be crafting raw materials in any case.

They really want us to play this game without grinding, for levels or loot it seems. Since the same beta board statement mentioned increased exp gains in beta three distorting the intended curves, I expect surplus and harvesting caps to kick in much later in open beta. I have no objection to horizontal growth and a long list of classes to try. I'm actually not really worried about surplus and am curious how it will play out for game balance in the long run. I'm more worried about the gathering restrictions since I have my eye on many crafting classes and would hate to get stuck due to no ability to gather for some period until a timer reset. But even that after they adjust it may be a non-issue, I'll just have to wait and see.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 11:43pm by Hechicera
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#68 Aug 27 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I know lots of people were planning to level their Lancer to cap within the first couple of weeks or so, and in earning those misplaced bragging rights, cheating themselves out of a lot of the game's content. So I actually don't feel too bad for them. It's in their own best interest so long as they can appreciate it for what it is-- a chance to do a variety of things without significantly impeding their race to the end.
That's assuming people are going to go "oh well I can't level anymore, time to go exploring/questing/etc!" People who want exp and can't get it anymore are just going to log off. Over time when they keep getting restricted from doing what they want to do, they'll just cancel their account after being fed up with the system.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 10:50pm by bsphil
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#69 Aug 27 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Saying it promotes Horizontal progression instead of Vertical progression implies that its just as useful/fulfilling/enjoyable, when its not.


It may not be more useful/fulfilling/enjoyable to you, but to be fair, others think differently. There is no right or wrong about it - it is a personal taste issue. Pretending that it is a fact that progression along a vertical axis is better than progression on a horizontal or diagonal axis doesn't really add anything to the debate.


(I've been trying to avoid getting caught up in this, but...) It's funny how often I have seen those against the surplus/fatigue system use this argument (Olorinus' quote - underlined portion). So, to be fair, two questions:

-How does having this system not hurt those in favor of leveling one class*?
-How does not having this system hurt those in support of this system**?

*hardcore players, those who wish to spend the majority of their time on one class, or those with more time
**casual players

I have my own answers to those questions, but I'd like to see what others write first so that my opinions may not influence their initial answers.
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#70 Aug 28 2010 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
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WooShoo wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Saying it promotes Horizontal progression instead of Vertical progression implies that its just as useful/fulfilling/enjoyable, when its not.


It may not be more useful/fulfilling/enjoyable to you, but to be fair, others think differently. There is no right or wrong about it - it is a personal taste issue. Pretending that it is a fact that progression along a vertical axis is better than progression on a horizontal or diagonal axis doesn't really add anything to the debate.


(I've been trying to avoid getting caught up in this, but...) It's funny how often I have seen those against the surplus/fatigue system use this argument (Olorinus' quote - underlined portion). So, to be fair, two questions:

-How does having this system not hurt those in favor of leveling one class*?
-How does not having this system hurt those in support of this system**?

*hardcore players, those who wish to spend the majority of their time on one class, or those with more time
**casual players

I have my own answers to those questions, but I'd like to see what others write first so that my opinions may not influence their initial answers.


1. The game isn't really based on leveling 1 class. As a matter of fact, if you only level 1 class, you will be gimped beyond being gimp. If people only want to level 1 class, the system can't hurt them, because they are hurting themselves.
2. If this system wasn't in place, you may find it difficult to find a good party. What you will end up with is a portion of people with one high level class that are too high to party with, or a bunch of people to party with, that don't even have cure abilities. Let's not forget that MP works different in XIV. Having self heals on a melee class is going to be a big help... no, it's going to be required.
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#71 Aug 28 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
-How does having this system not hurt those in favor of leveling one class*?

Saying it "hurts" is a misnomer, first of all. It doesn't "hurt" anyone. It inconveniences people who just want to level one class. I am not denying that.

-How does not having this system hurt those in support of this system**?

Since every other MMO uses a vertical axis - it would eliminate the ONE possible choice that people like me might have had. People who want to level vertically can do so in every other MMO that I know of. People who want to level diagonally are either punished by not being able to access content or even find parties most of the time (FFXI) or simply not able to level horizontally at all(every 1 character, 1 class MMO) in every other MMO that I know of.

Furthermore - if the developers intentions with this system is to control the rate of progression (which it clearly is) then if they eliminate surplus exp, the alternative is to lengthen the progression by either nerfing exp gain at all times or by increasing the amount of exp. per level. Which means people who don't have a lot of time to play (whether they like leveling vertically or diagonally) will not be able to accomplish much in a small time frame.

Regardless of what I think about it or whether people think a game not being designed with them in mind "hurts" them - the developers will have their way. So I don't really think attacking people that don't mind the system is productive. It seems like people feel personally insulted that I am not bothered by this system.

I am sure that I will hit surplus sometimes - I WILL most of the time be playing way more than 8 hours a week - so I will have to change jobs too. I just don't see the big hairy deal. People can say "well I don't like it" - but I don't like pretty much every other MMO on the market - but I am not trying to tell people who like the way they are to change them to suit me.

I can't help it that I am pleased the developers of this game are trying something new which will probably suit my playstyle, just like WoW players can't help it that I don't like being limited to 1 class per character and only playing certain classes on certain races. I am not on WoW boards telling people there how inconsiderate they are to like a game that doesn't suit my playstyle.

I know the difference is here people have been looking forward to the game without knowing much of the mechanics. I have sympathy for those who are upset and surprised by these mechanics, but I don't think I ought to feel bad for actually thinking that the developers are on the right track.





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#72 Aug 28 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I just don't understand why people take it so personal.
Can you explain this to me a little because I would really like know why.


Sorry I may have come off wrong, I didn't mean I was gonna cry that I got rated down but my first post was hidden because it was rated down to sub-defaulted- so instead of people providing constructive critism with or against me, those against me decided they didn't like my opinion and rated me down which isn't what the rating system in place on ZAM is for - its there to rate down people trolling/flaming/etc. Anyway you're right this was all really stupid to begin with.
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#73 Aug 28 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Since every other MMO uses a vertical axis - it would eliminate the ONE possible choice that people like me might have had. People who want to level vertically can do so in every other MMO that I know of. People who want to level diagonally are either punished by not being able to access content or even find parties most of the time (FFXI) or simply not able to level horizontally at all(every 1 character, 1 class MMO) in every other MMO that I know of.

Furthermore - if the developers intentions with this system is to control the rate of progression (which it clearly is) then if they eliminate surplus exp, the alternative is to lengthen the progression by either nerfing exp gain at all times or by increasing the amount of exp. per level. Which means people who don't have a lot of time to play (whether they like leveling vertically or diagonally) will not be able to accomplish much in a small time frame.


Perhaps you could elaborate on how FFXI punishes players for wanting to level diagonally? I don't really see any correlation. Inability to access content/find parties seemed to me to stem more from very regimented party structures and a time-consuming party-building process. I'm not sure how a fatigue system really addresses those things.

To the second paragraph: that's why I'm advocating a rested experience system. That will help people who don't have a lot of time to play to achieve more in a smaller amount of time. And as I mentioned before, I think it does less collateral damage.
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#74 Aug 28 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Default
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:

Perhaps you could elaborate on how FFXI punishes players for wanting to level diagonally? I don't really see any correlation. Inability to access content/find parties seemed to me to stem more from very regimented party structures and a time-consuming party-building process. I'm not sure how a fatigue system really addresses those things.

To the second paragraph: that's why I'm advocating a rested experience system. That will help people who don't have a lot of time to play to achieve more in a smaller amount of time. And as I mentioned before, I think it does less collateral damage.


In FFXI you get pretty much no benefit for leveling 10 classes to level 30 rather leveling 1 class to level 75 (or whatever the cap is now) - you can't access more content, the space between levels (after 20 anyway) is demoralizingly slow, and if you don't have 5 hours to party, forget it.

Also you can't make any gil to speak of.

Rested exp doesn't solve the issue. First of all it still punishes people who play often but not for long periods of time. Second of all it doesn't hinder the rate of progress - which means the developers would make the TNL's bigger - which means instead of getting a shiny new ability pretty frequently - I get one maybe once a week after grinding endlessly... just like XI - I'm sorry but those exp rings were pretty much like rested exp - and they did nothing to make the levels closer together.

Besides. Why are you trying to convince me to hate this system? I am not SE. Can't you just appreciate that I can see the benefits - and that it suits me and my playstyle?
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#75 Aug 28 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Good
Let's put it this way - I appreciate some people won't like this system - no matter what and I don't pretend it doesn't inconvenience [some] players and prevent them from playing the way they want to.

I'm used to games not being designed with players like me in mind. I'm used to the people that like the systems that don't work for me not having any sympathy whatsoever - and never advocating for the kind of game I want to play.

So I can understand where people are coming from with their frustration. Unfortunately for some people this is their first experience running into a system that hasn't been designed with their playstyle in mind. I accepted that I would never get to experience most of FFXI given my playstyle.

So I don't think it is much for me to ask those that are raging to take a deep breath, and consider that every game doesn't have to be the exact same as everything else on the market. It doesn't have to privledge the same kind of playstyle. It is not wrong to try something different. And if you don't like it after trying it - there are a lot of other games out there that will let you play the way you want to.



Edited, Aug 28th 2010 12:15am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#76 Aug 28 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:


To the second paragraph: that's why I'm advocating a rested experience system. That will help people who don't have a lot of time to play to achieve more in a smaller amount of time. And as I mentioned before, I think it does less collateral damage.


For example if I was gardening or choco raising and I log in to feed my choco and water my garden in the morning and at lunch time - boom! no rested exp for me. Rested exp only works in a game where every little action you do doesn't give you exp.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#77 Aug 28 2010 at 1:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
In FFXI you get pretty much no benefit for leveling 10 classes to level 30 rather leveling 1 class to level 75 (or whatever the cap is now) - you can't access more content, the space between levels (after 20 anyway) is demoralizingly slow, and if you don't have 5 hours to party, forget it.

Also you can't make any gil to speak of.


I kind of feel like there was some benefit to diagonal progression with the whole subjob thing (plus occasionally to level a new class to help reach goals, like how everyone and their mother leveled RNG to 30 for level-capped stuff). The bit about 5 hours to party and slow gil-making seemed to affect everyone unilaterally to me, people who progress vertically, horizontally, diagonally, or sinusoidally. So I don't know if those are really a punishment on diagonal progression, specifically.

Olorinus wrote:
Rested exp doesn't solve the issue. First of all it still punishes people who play often but not for long periods of time. Second of all it doesn't hinder the rate of progress - which means the developers would make the TNL's bigger - which means instead of getting a shiny new ability pretty frequently - I get one maybe once a week after grinding endlessly... just like XI - I'm sorry but those exp rings were pretty much like rested exp - and they did nothing to make the levels closer together.


Is that really a punishment though? To me it just seems like 'not getting a reward', meaning neutral. I must admit that I do see merit to the following part though. If through the fatigue system you can gain a level in hypothetically, 3 days, and then you can't level that class for the next two, while with the rested exp system you can gain that same level in 5 straight days, then I certainly see legitimacy in preference of the fatigue system. Personally, I just don't like what I perceive to be an authoritarian governing of both the leveling and class selection process, nor do I like that there will likely be periods where we are simply unable to play the way we might want to be playing.

I do see that particular dilemma as an "agree to disagree" thing though. I certainly respect your opinion on it.

Olorinus wrote:
Besides. Why are you trying to convince me to hate this system? I am not SE. Can't you just appreciate that I can see the benefits - and that it suits me and my playstyle?


Erm...I need the conflict.



It sustains me.




Edited, Aug 28th 2010 3:19am by Eske
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#78 Aug 28 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:


To the second paragraph: that's why I'm advocating a rested experience system. That will help people who don't have a lot of time to play to achieve more in a smaller amount of time. And as I mentioned before, I think it does less collateral damage.


For example if I was gardening or choco raising and I log in to feed my choco and water my garden in the morning and at lunch time - boom! no rested exp for me. Rested exp only works in a game where every little action you do doesn't give you exp.


Well, couldn't the system be implemented so that it measures the length of time between your leveling sessions, and not your log-ins?
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#79 Aug 28 2010 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:

The bit about 5 hours to party and slow gil-making seemed to affect everyone unilaterally to me, people who progress vertically, horizontally, diagonally, or sinusoidally. So I don't know if those are really a punishment on diagonal progression.


Yeah this is fair. However the FFXI subjob system can't compare at all with the FFXIV job points system when it comes to adding value for your cross-classing. I mean a lot of the jobs were next to useless as subs, period.

I really appreciate that you can see where I am coming from about preferring to get some progress (which has a cap) faster and then need to do something else than spending a long time to make the same progress (with no cap).

To be honest it is just a playstyle thing that can't be solved. Some people are going to like it - some people are going to hate it. If there were more hours in the day I wouldn't be so concerned, but I don't think that social games should be limited only to the people that can play mega hours.

I do think SE is trying to make the rewards of leveling up a lot of jobs instead of just one all the way fair to people who play more, however. If this was FFXI - the abilities you got in return were not very balanced for the effort put in. In this game almost every skill you get can move over - so it is way more rewarding than the subjob system.

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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#80 Aug 28 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
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or sinusoidally


Lol people coming into this thread now are thinking they need their math degrees for this one.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 4:13am by SolidMack
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#81 Aug 28 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
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As tempted as I am to jump in and give my 2 penneth here, I'm pretty sure my opinions have been expressed by other people. So rather than dissect this and its pros and cons, I thought I'd think of some alternatives.

For starters, if this system is based on the law of diminishing returns, how about instead of applying it to individual classes, it gets added to mobs/areas instead? This would actually add a thin layer of realism, and could even be phased the way leves are.

For instance, say you're grinding on dodos (yeah, I'm the only person on the forum who wasn't in CB, excuse my shoddy example). You/your group now see mobs in this area, but anyone not in your party sees different mobs. For a certain amount of time/kills (obviously scaled differently depending on group size), mobs all give 100% exp, then over time this diminishes; the mobs that spawn are physically weaker and weaker, until finally they're 'temporarily extinct', or something to that effect, for everyone in your party. "You already hunted xyz dodos, come back tomorrow/next week when the population has replenished!"

However if a person was to join the group too late, then they would still not be able to hunt the mob in question; possibly a flaw, possibly an incentive to make dedicated groups, which is the point of this argument right? Also if a person in group is too far away, they miss out on the exp altogether, but still lose the mobs.

Also, as this applies to one mob type, and it could take hours for said mob to be depleted, your group is always free to leave and camp a different area, starting from scratch. Eventually of course there is a point where there's not much they can hit, but this point would be reached much later.

Possible problems with this idea;

- It potentially still allows hardcore players to overtake the casuals (and reducing exp basically creates the same problem again, because how would a casual catch up unless they had some kind of exp buff?)
- It doesn't support changing classes (unless everyone switching class changes the issue, in which case refer to the above)
- World may look less diverse if mobs are depleted on your side
- Mobs on timers would disappear with day/night/moon phase etc
-

Possible benefits;

- No kill stealing as all mobs are phased
- Environments could be phased with mob kills - imagine (for the sake of example) a dark forest area. As mobs are killed, the environment slowly and surely 'lightens', more and more neutral creatures move into the area, flowers bloom etcetera.
- Adding the above phasing concept to a wider questline, "Please rid my land of these creatures!", although this treads a bit on mmo stereotypical quests
- Add elemental mobs/areas, encourage the players to spend time kitting themselves out and allocating their stat points before grinding (immersion)
- Add %possibility of rare marks appearing to protect these mobs, with varying difficulty/rewards


Another idea, not quite as good IMO: Literal fatigue. After you grind mobs for xhours/exp, your character becomes 'too tired to fight'. It takes an hour or two of in game time before he/she's replenished, and this can be boosted by visiting a city, tent etc. This is probably an irritating concept, but would be more popular than 7 day cooldowns on exp.

To be honest though, I think this is as much a problem with lack of end game/later content at launch, in which case there is no real solution apart from delaying launch, and noone wants that.

This is way too much writing and thought for 0917.
#82 Aug 28 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to try and put this as simple as I know how. Lots of you agree with the system. You say it's a game and you should just enjoy it and you're glad it will slow them down and force them to enjoy the content and blah blah blah. That's selfish. In a way you're a hardcore gamer at heart but just don't have the time that a hardcore gamer has. To me it sounds like envy.

I think it might help out partying more. You can make more EXP in a party in the 8 hours allotted than to be alone. Unless they restricted how much EXP you can make in a week as well. . .then they have just gone too far overboard with the whole thing.
#83 Aug 28 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Unless they restricted how much EXP you can make in a week as well. . .then they have just gone too far overboard with the whole thing.


That's what surplus is. Any one class can not get more than X exp until it resets either by waiting for the week to be over or changing classes. People seem to keep misconceiving this as a time constraint when its really an exp restraint. They just happen to use figures of time in their examples when it was explained.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 10:43am by ThePacster
#84 Aug 28 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teneleven wrote:
1. The game isn't really based on leveling 1 class. As a matter of fact, if you only level 1 class, you will be gimped beyond being gimp. If people only want to level 1 class, the system can't hurt them, because they are hurting themselves.
This has yet to be seen.
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#85 Aug 28 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Some more questions for those that favor the system:

1) It has been said this is to keep the 'level gap' between hardcores and casuals smaller, encouraging easier LFG situations. However, the argument is also continually made that casuals far outweigh hardcores. So how does this system address this 'concern' at all? Can't all of the players who are interested in horizontal progression simply...party amongst themselves easier?

2) It has also been repeatedly stated that absent this system, the XP curve for TNL would be increased. This line of thinking is based on slowing down the hardcores and staggering endgame content so they don't quit. However, as evidenced here, a good amount of hardcores aren't even thinking of STARTING, plus with the current system most would quit after diminishing returns on the class they want to level, far before they would hit endgame with an increased cap. This seems to be the exact opposite effect, keeping players from quitting. How does the system not take this into account?

3) Related to above, everyone keeps saying that the XP curve has to go up if surplus is abandoned. Why? The only argument this makes sense for is keeping hardcore progression to endgame capped...all of the other arguments (encourages horizontal, balanced parties, etc.) don't apply since absent surplus they are still possible and even encouraged (see #1 above about casuals grouping with casuals). Since we don't know with 100% certainty that SE wants to cap hardcore progression for endgame as a reason to have surplus, how does this system address this?

This isn't a system that punishes hardcores at the benefit of casuals; it's simply a system that punishes hardcores. If it were the former, then yes we could easily chalk it up to catering to a different playstyle. It just doesn't make any sense at all to assume that a) surplus is the only option for casuals and b) if it were removed that we would have to replace it at all.

It would make far more sense to have physical rank exp and class skill points scale entirely based on the mob itself and simply make higher level mobs harder to solo. It encourages party play and BALANCED party play at that, as tougher mobs will require a more diverse skillset of each party member. INCENTIVE is always the preferable option to punishment. SE does it backwards all the time.
#86 Aug 28 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
I've pretty much tried to explain to death so if you can't get this from one of the million other posts I and other people have made, I can't help you.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#87 Aug 28 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do think SE is trying to make the rewards of leveling up a lot of jobs instead of just one all the way fair to people who play more, however



I am all for rewarding people for playing more classes. However, every cross class skill you get is gimped, either with increased cooldown, or by weak magic power. I predict most people are still only going to be using 5-10% off class abilities.

This system is punishment to most, at best its negative reinforcement to those willing to level 4 other classes if it reduces surplus time on our "main" class.

At the end of the day, to me it boils down to a soft level cap every week. If that's the effect SE wants, they should just implement that and stop trying to confuse people with an over elaborate system.
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#88 Aug 28 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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@Olo: I know, and have read and posted in such other threads, specifically responding to yours as well. I've yet to see any answer given for the specific questions I just posed.
#89 Aug 28 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Chooch: The short form of the answer to your question is a relatively simple one.

Squeenix expects to make x dollars off a person while they level to endgame content, which is their return on the development of the leveling areas and all the little things that are between Tutorial and FF14's dynamis equivalents.

Endgame content is there to KEEP a player paying after they have gone through the 'game', per se. They want to make money off the game play. How many shooters/solo RPG's, etc have you blown through in a month when you buy a game off the shelf. They don't have the content (usually) to keep you around longer if you hammer the game.

All discussions on how limitations should be implemented aside, there's ALWAYS an 'xp/hour' expectation that's calculated behind these games. Just ask the guys over at Runequest. They're freeish and they still use xp gains as limiters. If they catch up casuals or slow down hardcores, they're still looking to get x cash out of each person before they're done with the 'regular' gameplay.

Thus, there will always be a limiter, of some kind, looking to make any player play for x # of renewals before they're 'done' with the developed content. The game purchase itself is not going to pay for the development and artistic time involved.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 1:49pm by GUDare
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#90 Aug 28 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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ChoochZero wrote:
@Olo: I know, and have read and posted in such other threads, specifically responding to yours as well. I've yet to see any answer given for the specific questions I just posed.


ChoochZero wrote:
Some more questions for those that favor the system:

1) It has been said this is to keep the 'level gap' between hardcores and casuals smaller, encouraging easier LFG situations. However, the argument is also continually made that casuals far outweigh hardcores. So how does this system address this 'concern' at all? Can't all of the players who are interested in horizontal progression simply...party amongst themselves easier?

2) It has also been repeatedly stated that absent this system, the XP curve for TNL would be increased. This line of thinking is based on slowing down the hardcores and staggering endgame content so they don't quit. However, as evidenced here, a good amount of hardcores aren't even thinking of STARTING, plus with the current system most would quit after diminishing returns on the class they want to level, far before they would hit endgame with an increased cap. This seems to be the exact opposite effect, keeping players from quitting. How does the system not take this into account?

3) Related to above, everyone keeps saying that the XP curve has to go up if surplus is abandoned. Why? The only argument this makes sense for is keeping hardcore progression to endgame capped...all of the other arguments (encourages horizontal, balanced parties, etc.) don't apply since absent surplus they are still possible and even encouraged (see #1 above about casuals grouping with casuals). Since we don't know with 100% certainty that SE wants to cap hardcore progression for endgame as a reason to have surplus, how does this system address this?

This isn't a system that punishes hardcores at the benefit of casuals; it's simply a system that punishes hardcores. If it were the former, then yes we could easily chalk it up to catering to a different playstyle. It just doesn't make any sense at all to assume that a) surplus is the only option for casuals and b) if it were removed that we would have to replace it at all.

It would make far more sense to have physical rank exp and class skill points scale entirely based on the mob itself and simply make higher level mobs harder to solo. It encourages party play and BALANCED party play at that, as tougher mobs will require a more diverse skillset of each party member. INCENTIVE is always the preferable option to punishment. SE does it backwards all the time.


Olorinus and others have already answered those questions if you read between the lines. And that's probably why most are getting tired of answering these questions. It's the same circle of questions with different wording over & over. To the point where it just feels like I'm wasting my time trying to convince you guys to play the game when I'm really starting to not care if you play or not.

If SE has a suggested exp/week ratio that should be controlled, and they have mentioned that...then wouldn't removing the surplus system mean changing other numbers to accommodate? Makes sense to me if they're set on having such a controlled system in place.

All of the assumptions against the system seem to be based off the fact that people will reach surplus exp absurdly fast and have nothing to do the rest of the week which is not a good interpretation of the system and I don't think it's anywhere close to being that bad.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 1:53pm by TwistedOwl
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#91 Aug 28 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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That's assuming people are going to go "oh well I can't level anymore, time to go exploring/questing/etc!" People who want exp and can't get it anymore are just going to log off. Over time when they keep getting restricted from doing what they want to do, they'll just cancel their account after being fed up with the system.


No, that's assuming nothing about those people. At some point, they will get fatigue on a class. From there, they can stay on that class and earn surplus, continue to progress by leveling a different class, or do something else altogether. Smart money would be on them leveling a different class, because as others have suggested, they'll end up being gimpy without other classes leveled anyway. And that isn't really something that remains to be seen-- limiting yourself to one class WILL be the loljob of XIV. It will be similar to leveling to 75 in XI with an inappropriate subjob, if not worse.
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#92 Aug 28 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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bunsisbuns wrote:
I also agree that I would not be happy to be one of the people who built a computer specifically for this game, then found out about surplus and didn't like what they heard.


Sorry if this sounds cold but why would I have any sympathy for those people? If throwing down $1000-2000 on a new computer is a lot for you then maybe you should wait to hear enough about the game to ensure you'll be satisfied. That's my take on it anyway.
#93 Aug 28 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I thought it was a good post. That kind of mindset definitely added to FFXI feeling more like a job rather than being fun. I'm hopeful that doesn't happen in XIV.


I know I'm quoting something back from page 1 and we've moved far beyond that topic, however, I just wanted to say that I completely agree with the quoted statement. Five of my close friends and I played FFXI together. 2 of them lived in the game, Myself and another were playing a lot but still had lives to live, and the last 2 played very little and quit after just a couple of months. Long story short, the 2 who lived in the game don't speak to each other IRL anymore due to crap that went on in-game. LS/Dynamis/parties etc. I'm all for enjoying your free time as you see fit, but the 6 of us grew up together on the same block. We've known each other since we were in single digits. For something as petty as not getting the "payment" you thought you should for recruiting people, to end a friendship that's almost 20 year old is insanely stupid.

I'm not sold on the system either way yet. I honestly don't know enough about it to lean for or against it for myself. From what I do know about it I'm not sure if it would really effect me anyway. If I can dedicate 15-20 hours to the game then I don't really see it all being on the same class anyway. But that's just me.
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#94 Aug 28 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Option 1: Tuning the level curve high - FFXI
Option 2: Tuning the level curve high, with a rested experience system - WoW
Option 3: Tuning the level curve low, with a cap placed on vertical progression over time - FFXIV

Options 1 & 2 let the player decide what they want to do with their time. With Option 3, Square is deciding for them.
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#95 Aug 28 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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For many people it's worth it just to have a low level curve. Nevermind that they aren't actually deciding what you do with your time, just deciding how much progress you can make.

This isn't an issue for people who simply enjoy playing the game (they can still keep grinding for reduced xp and surplus bonuses)-- it's only an issue for people who are concerned with progressing as quickly as possible, (which is silly considering that SE determines how quickly is possible anyway) and not even as a matter of efficiency, but on a calendar. i.e., you can still spend exactly the same amount of hours progressing (though it will be less with the low level curve), but the calendar date you get there will be later.

It's a perceived barrier, not an actual barrier. When you stop perceiving it, it goes away. So there's a handy tip for those that don't like it.

My personal suspicion is that most people who vehemently oppose the mechanic intended to grind to cap as quickly as possible, putting in absurd play time. With this system, absurd playtime isn't the advantage that it normally is, and that bothers them. They'll no longer be entitled to the bragging rights of being one of the first, since many people will reach cap at roughly the same time. They aren't sure how they'll be able to distinguish themselves as players. Basically, they view the game as something of a race that they were sure to place well in, and now their head start has been basically taken away.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, actually. I just find a certain level of disingenuousness in the suggestion that this is a broken mechanic due to that perception.

Personally I just hope that there is plenty of other content to enjoy after I hit the slow down.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#96 Aug 28 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Nainz wrote:
Quote:
Option 1: Tuning the level curve high - FFXI
Option 2: Tuning the level curve high, with a rested experience system - WoW
Option 3: Tuning the level curve low, with a cap placed on vertical progression over time - FFXIV

Options 1 & 2 let the player decide what they want to do with their time. With Option 3, Square is deciding for them.


Up to a point, you're only forced to switch if you reach that 0exp wall. Not everyone will hit that. I don't know about WoW, but we can take a look at XI.

There were exceptions, but for the most part you waited around a lot for a party in order to level because soloing was really rough up until recent years with FoV & such that helped a bit. Still wasn't ideal. You work through some Dunes parties and hopefully have your items to unlock a subjob...if not it's time to go gather them and maybe start leveling a sub through the Dunes. Now you go through Qufim and are ready to level beyond 25+ for the first time, but every party wants to go to the jungle. Time for a sidequest to get those items for your airship pass. Through all of this it would be wise to take some time off to gather some dungeon maps and visit various crags for teleporting so you don't end up being that guy in the pt who can't teleport with the group for that next leveling location.

At higher levels, you hit walls and had to do limit break sidequests to progress further. And I'm sure there's lots of things I'm leaving out, but that's a quick take on it. Sure you weren't really forced to do these things(save for the limit breaks) however you'd be having an extremely tough time advancing if you didn't. And in many cases you took time out to do these extra things not because you really wanted to, but because it was pretty much required. I know I didn't want to do all that crap...

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 5:42pm by TwistedOwl
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#97 Aug 28 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's a perceived barrier, not an actual barrier. When you stop perceiving it, it goes away. So there's a handy tip for those that don't like it.


When you're XP gain caps at 1% per mob, thats an actual barrier.


Quote:

My personal suspicion is that most people who vehemently oppose the mechanic intended to grind to cap as quickly as possible, putting in absurd play time. With this system, absurd playtime isn't the advantage that it normally is, and that bothers them. They'll no longer be entitled to the bragging rights of being one of the first, since many people will reach cap at roughly the same time. They aren't sure how they'll be able to distinguish themselves as players. Basically, they view the game as something of a race that they were sure to place well in, and now their head start has been basically taken away.


see thats just generalizing. That number of people is probably the same size as the group of people in support of surplus, just to prevent the evil "hardcores" from taking over, and experiencing everything first, therefore ruining it for the rest of them.

I'm a student. If I have exams I need to study for one week, and loads of free time next week to make up for missing stuff, or catching up to friends, I'd like to be able to. Being capped at 1% exp after ~15 hours won't let me do that. Thats why I'm upset with the system.
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#98 Aug 28 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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2,120 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
I'm a student. If I have exams I need to study for one week, and loads of free time next week to make up for missing stuff, or catching up to friends, I'd like to be able to. Being capped at 1% exp after ~15 hours won't let me do that. Thats why I'm upset with the system.


Until you see for yourself how restrictive the system is against you achieving that goal, you don't know for sure. If you try it and confirm your suspicions, then be upset...
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#99 Aug 28 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
Quote:

Until you see for yourself how restrictive the system is against you achieving that goal, you don't know for sure. If you try it and confirm your suspicions, then be upset...


And I agree with you there. I will wait until the game is released before my final play or not worth it judgment. However, going by what has been said so far, I believe what i said to be the case. the interview said they want to cap off max exp at 8 thresholds + 7 more at reduced rate per class per week. Now they've also said they will look into it, but I don't believe there will be a drastic improvement. Believe me, I'll be thrilled if the system comes out and its something I can work with, but with SE's lack of explanations to NA customers, and general disregard for the NA customer's suggestions isn't encouraging.

I also wanted to use my situation as an example of how this affects people other than "hardcores" racing to level cap. I'm actually starting to think this game is designed for people who are gonna play in 3-4 hour chunks ever day or 2, and not to be so kind to players who wanted to play in larger chunks of time once or twice a week.
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#100 Aug 28 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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2,120 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:

Until you see for yourself how restrictive the system is against you achieving that goal, you don't know for sure. If you try it and confirm your suspicions, then be upset...


And I agree with you there. I will wait until the game is released before my final play or not worth it judgment. However, going by what has been said so far, I believe what i said to be the case. the interview said they want to cap off max exp at 8 thresholds + 7 more at reduced rate per class per week. Now they've also said they will look into it, but I don't believe there will be a drastic improvement. Believe me, I'll be thrilled if the system comes out and its something I can work with, but with SE's lack of explanations to NA customers, and general disregard for the NA customer's suggestions isn't encouraging.

I also wanted to use my situation as an example of how this affects people other than "hardcores" racing to level cap. I'm actually starting to think this game is designed for people who are gonna play in 3-4 hour chunks ever day or 2, and not to be so kind to players who wanted to play in larger chunks of time once or twice a week.


People will definitely be testing the heck out of this system in the upcoming weeks and that will "hopefully" settle things a little bit. A word from SE about the future of the system would of course go a long way to clearing things up as well
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#101 Aug 28 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
I'm just glad we're getting a simultaneous release this time around. It was pretty weak having an established economy benefiting higher levels on day 1 of NA release in FFXI. SE should stop treating NA customers as second class consumers, and start releasing all their games at the same time, instead of keeping NA back a quarter to show a better yearly earnings report.
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