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#102 Aug 28 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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actually id say it was pretty false that high levels abused NA, least on my server, because fact is, we got things a lot cheaper because they had already established an economy, why do you think weapons and items were generally cheaper on AH than in stores.
Crafters basically sold most of thier things at cost , or lower. Only overcharged on HQs

But it is true, we didnt get a chance to make the economy, This time we will, and boooy if they dont put items in stores, its gonna be pretty tough. least for like first 3 weeks
#103 Aug 28 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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I'd heard accounts of server that had price gouging going into the NA release. Now I'm sure most price increases were simple supply and demand not balancing out yet, but I've also heard a few specific items double or tripling in price for release. Even if there was nobody taking advantage, its still not fair to have one language start 6 months before another.
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#104 Aug 28 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
This has yet to be seen.


And so does this....

bsphil wrote:
That's assuming people are going to go "oh well I can't level anymore, time to go exploring/questing/etc!" People who want exp and can't get it anymore are just going to log off. Over time when they keep getting restricted from doing what they want to do, they'll just cancel their account after being fed up with the system.


Seriously, you just can't please all of the people, all of the time. If this game isn't for you, move on. People chalk that up to some cliche thing to say, but it's true. If this game doesn't offer what you want, find one that does. That's the glory in all this, we all have a choice.
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#105 Aug 28 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've been following one of the longer surplus/fatigue threads on GameFAQs, and it reads like reasonable questions on one side and a witch hunt and retribution against hardcores and players with time to play on the other. At least ZAM's rating system keeps the posts about this argument to a more respectful and intelligent level.

It's going to be interesting to see public chats the first few weeks of the game...
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#106 Aug 28 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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WooShoo wrote:
I've been following one of the longer surplus/fatigue threads on GameFAQs, and it reads like reasonable questions on one side and a witch hunt and retribution against hardcores and players with time to play on the other. At least ZAM's rating system keeps the posts about this argument to a more respectful and intelligent level.

It's going to be interesting to see public chats the first few weeks of the game...


Perhaps years of pent-up frustration being unleashed upon the hardcore crowd. The "other side" sees a system they like, that the hardcores can't stand, and now they're able to finally say "If you don't like it, quit whining & gtfo." Maybe enjoying it a little too much?
Isn't that also the same crowd that originally believed they'd only get to play 1 hour at a time though? Might explain a few things...

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 9:36pm by TwistedOwl
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#107 Aug 28 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Kadin wrote:
Seriously, you just can't please all of the people, all of the time. If this game isn't for you, move on. People chalk that up to some cliche thing to say, but it's true. If this game doesn't offer what you want, find one that does. That's the glory in all this, we all have a choice.
That's the stupidest **** I've heard on the topic yet. Who cares if SE ****** off a bunch of customers, if they don't like it they can play a different game? What kind of business model is that?

The people who are upset about fatigue are people who are looking forward to the game and are crushed to hear that they're getting forced into a crappy leveling system. If you want to say that this is going to be just like rested xp in the long run, why not just use that instead? It doesn't punish anyone yet still helps those without a lot of time to play. The "hardcore" players are free to grind all they want and the "casual" players get a boost to not be completely left behind. Yes, "casual" players won't make it to the level cap as fast as the "hardcore" players will. Good. They don't deserve to.
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#108 Aug 28 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
That's the stupidest sh*t I've heard on the topic yet. Who cares if SE ****** off a bunch of customers, if they don't like it they can play a different game? What kind of business model is that?


That's your response, and mine was the stupidest? Can you name me one company in the whole wide world that doesn't have some ****** off customers? A worse business model is trying to change things on every whim of every little customer. A company just can't please everybody, but some people have a problem dealing with the fact that the world doesn't revolve around them. Then they find an internet forum and *****. If I don't like the way Wal-Mart bags my groceries, you know what an adult does? They stop going to Wal-Mart. Maybe that's not a valid arguement on an internet forum, but it's how it works in the real world. There's plenty of other supermarkets that would be more than happy to have me, and Wal-Mart will continue to chug on just fine without me. Many other people are just fine and dandy with the way Wal-Mart bags their groceries.

In short, grow up (not you specifically Bsphil) and realize the world doesn't revolve around your every want and need.
#109 Aug 28 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think its more about finding a better compromise with their system, considering they take away your exp and instead give you surplus that they don't want you to use.

Nobuaki Komoto wrote:
Surplus points currently have no use. However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system. We want to take our time and thoroughly investigate this issue.


In short, they're giving us these points that we can't spend, but they don't want to make something we want to spend these points on. Why give us surplus points at all? Just cut our exp and be done with it. I can already see people asking around town "what do I use these surplus points on?" for the next two or three months. Can you imagine how they feel when we tell them "oh, you can't spend those points, its just the game's way of taking away your exp, go play another class or stop playing the game if you don't like it."
#110 Aug 28 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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ThePacster wrote:
I think its more about finding a better compromise with their system, considering they take away your exp and instead give you surplus that they don't want you to use.

Nobuaki Komoto wrote:
Surplus points currently have no use. However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system. We want to take our time and thoroughly investigate this issue.


In short, they're giving us these points that we can't spend, but they don't want to make something we want to spend these points on. Why give us surplus points at all? Just cut our exp and be done with it. I can already see people asking around town "what do I use these surplus points on?" for the next two or three months. Can you imagine how they feel when we tell them "oh, you can't spend those points, its just the game's way of taking away your exp, go play another class or stop playing the game if you don't like it."


Not sure what they're thinking there. They may be able to find some "consolation prize" type stuff to spend the points on. That way people aren't playing with the mindset "Man I need to get my surplus up so I can afford item X!", but if you happen to find a situation where you want to earn surplus points they can be put to something mediocre... perhaps a "I earned 10,000 surplus points and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" shirt. Actually some people might strive to get that lol....but you know what I mean. Or maybe they remain worthless -shrugs-

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#111 Aug 28 2010 at 9:08 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Kadin wrote:
bsphil wrote:
That's the stupidest sh*t I've heard on the topic yet. Who cares if SE ****** off a bunch of customers, if they don't like it they can play a different game? What kind of business model is that?


That's your response, and mine was the stupidest? Can you name me one company in the whole wide world that doesn't have some ****** off customers? A worse business model is trying to change things on every whim of every little customer. A company just can't please everybody, but some people have a problem dealing with the fact that the world doesn't revolve around them. Then they find an internet forum and *****. If I don't like the way Wal-Mart bags my groceries, you know what an adult does? They stop going to Wal-Mart. Maybe that's not a valid arguement on an internet forum, but it's how it works in the real world. There's plenty of other supermarkets that would be more than happy to have me, and Wal-Mart will continue to chug on just fine without me. Many other people are just fine and dandy with the way Wal-Mart bags their groceries.

In short, grow up (not you specifically Bsphil) and realize the world doesn't revolve around your every want and need.
SE doesn't have a big enough MMO playerbase to get by with ******* off a bunch of its most dedicated players. They're not even bothering to market the game. They're just relying on people in the MMO community (primarily from FFXI) to support the game, but they're trying to appeal just to casuals like it's WoW or Farmville.

It's an awful idea.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 10:10pm by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
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#112 Aug 28 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
SE doesn't have a big enough MMO playerbase to get by with ******* off a bunch of its most dedicated players. They're not even bothering to market the game. They're just relying on people in the MMO community (primarily from FFXI) to support the game, but they're trying to appeal just to casuals like it's WoW or Farmville.

It's an awful idea.


My mistake, I didn't realize you had studied SE's financial statements. How are Blizzard/Activision's and Farmville's financial statements? How are Nintendo's financial statements? As much as you and me dislike the move to casual gaming, it's where the money is right now. SE is a business that needs to make money to satisfy their investors. Unless you hold SE stock, unfortunatly we are not investors.
#113 Aug 28 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Kadin wrote:
bsphil wrote:
SE doesn't have a big enough MMO playerbase to get by with ******* off a bunch of its most dedicated players. They're not even bothering to market the game. They're just relying on people in the MMO community (primarily from FFXI) to support the game, but they're trying to appeal just to casuals like it's WoW or Farmville.

It's an awful idea.


My mistake, I didn't realize you had studied SE's financial statements. How are Blizzard/Activision's and Farmville's financial statements? How are Nintendo's financial statements? As much as you and me dislike the move to casual gaming, it's where the money is right now. SE is a business that needs to make money to satisfy their investors. Unless you hold SE stock, unfortunatly we are not investors.
If that's what they're after, as I said in the text you quoted, they aren't bothering to market the game. If you want to bring in casual players at the rate that WoW does, you need to take a few pages out of Blizzard's marketing and HR department. Their existing fanbase isn't what they're looking for, but they aren't trying to find a new one.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#114 Aug 28 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree, even FFXIII had TV advertising in NA, and I would think in the long run that an MMO would be more profitable for them. And Blizzard didn't just do gameplay or CS's in their ad's either, they got Mr. T and William Shatner! Love em or Hate em you know everyone remembers the MOHAWK HAND GRENADE! It's effective advertising.
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#115 Aug 28 2010 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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I just don't want this game to collapse faster than Aion, but its looking like it will. Yes, judging by advertising, and beta press, this game will do worse than failed wow clone/killer, I can't even remember what aion was supposed to be.
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#116 Aug 28 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I can't see it collapsing right away, Final Fantasy has such a die hard core of fans that will play it no matter what. It just may not do as well as Square hopes it will. I'm just worried that if it doesn't meet their expectations, they may not support "the money hole" with as many expansions or even content updates, thus discouraging even the core group from continuing on due to lack of content.
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#117 Aug 28 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I can't even remember what aion was supposed to be.
WoW with wings.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#118 Aug 28 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I can't see it collapsing right away, Final Fantasy has such a die hard core of fans that will play it no matter what. It just may not do as well as Square hopes it will. I'm just worried that if it doesn't meet their expectations, they may not support "the money hole" with as many expansions or even content updates, thus discouraging even the core group from continuing on due to lack of content.


and that was my worry too. MMOs these days seem to live and die with the strength of their release. Surplus reads as a restriction/limitation/punishment to alot of people, and thats likely going to kill initial buys/tries for this game. Surplus fits the definition of negative reinforcement, thats not a great way to sell subscriptions.
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#119 Aug 28 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah and as much as I don't like the idea of surplus, I think it's just SE trying hold peoples hands since (from my understanding, correct me if i wrong) some ability's will be able to be shared between jobs. And I even read a post speculating that the advanced jobs may work on a system like Final Fantasy Tactics, That required you to be Level X in some job, and Level Y in another in order to unlock advanced Job Z. I think that would be a really cool idea and it totally fits in with the idea they are trying to push behind the surplus system. However, no matter how you look at it restrictions (negative restrictions) aren't going to sell the game. I think it should have been set up as bonus exp for changing jobs, and no cap on just straight out leveling. I think it wouldn't take long for people to realize what they are missing out on by only playing one job, but if that's how they want to play then they should be able too!
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#120 Aug 29 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Default
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When you're XP gain caps at 1% per mob, thats an actual barrier.


A barrier to what? It doesn't stop you from grinding mobs. It's a barrier to progress within a time frame, yes, but as has been pointed out a hundred times, all games have barriers to progress that are based on the length of time that players will attempt to progress. The argument basically boils down to, "But I can't progress as fast as possible!" The answer is that you CAN progress as fast as possible. Like in any game, the developers decide the terms of what is possible. Some say you have to grind for 500 hours over an indefinite period to get to cap. SE (just an example here) is saying you have to grind for 200 hours over a period of at least three months to get to cap.

It's understandable that someone who views the game as a race would not like a pacing mechanic, but that's all this is. SE isn't likely to cater to players who race to the end of their content, realize that there isn't enough of it yet, get bored, and quit. Because even though there are lots of players who set those goals and think that's what they want, in actuality they won't get as much enjoyment out of the game for those very reasons.

In other words, the argument against the system is, "I'm impatient and cannot savor the game."

Quote:

I'm a student. If I have exams I need to study for one week, and loads of free time next week to make up for missing stuff, or catching up to friends, I'd like to be able to. Being capped at 1% exp after ~15 hours won't let me do that. Thats why I'm upset with the system.


I can understand that. Personally were it my system, I would create a moving cap, such that your 8 thresholds would be saved and you would have 16 next week. Beyond that, I might even make the cap move universally based on the release date. i.e., if you start a month after release, you automatically have 32 thresholds of maximum xp. That trades off some of the benefits of the system to allow for late joiners to catch up more quickly.

That said, I'm a student too, and not very sympathetic to your troubles. I may not reach my caps each week-- probably won't. Honestly, as a grad student, probably shouldn't even poke my heads out of books and research articles long enough to even turn the game on. But if I do end up in your situation, I'll take my time to do things other than level my "main." It's not like I won't be able to play with my friends otherwise. They can't get THAT far ahead of me. Realize that in a traditional system, in the week you couldn't play, your friends probably FLEW by you with no hopes of you catching up.
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#121 Aug 29 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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Where is this 1% cap coming from. I was under the impression that the cap is 0 exp as in you can't level at all, which most certainly is a barrier no matter how you slice it. Trying to create a new system for leveling or changing the exp curve is great and all, but simply giving a person nothing for their time feels insulting.

Nobuaki Komoto wrote:
...we came up with a hypothesis regarding what amount of skill points and experience one was likely to earn in an hour. Think of this as a rate at which a player can fight battles, do Guildleves or skill-up.

Then, using that supposed amount, we made it so you can earn 8 hours worth of skill points and experience at 100% of this rate. The subsequent 7 hours' worth will gradually see one's attainable skill points and experience points fall to 0.


Example.

SE decides an average person should be able to get 1000 exp an hour. With this in mind, you can earn 8000 experience points (8 hours worth) at 100%. The subsequent 7 hours' worth gradually declines until it reaches 0. Not 1%, 0.

Stepping away from the strictly casual versus strictly hardcore gaming for a second (whatever you happen to define these two terms as). In my opinion, SE telling a player that in one weeks time they are only allowed to have X amount of experience regardless of how much effort they want to put into the job / class / profession that they sincerely enjoy using, is flawed.

What's more, in place of experience they give you surplus points that have no effective use by design.

Nobuaki Komoto wrote:
Surplus points currently have no use. However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system. We want to take our time and thoroughly investigate this issue.


To give a person something (surplus points) that by design has no intended purpose since giving it a purpose would make people want it for their efforts is also flawed.

I am not saying get rid of the surplus system per say. However, if we are going to receive 0 experience points and X amount of surplus points for our effort, they either need to make surplus points actually worth something for our time, or change the game notification to say.

You have 100% fatigue.
You gain 0 experience points.

instead of saying

You gain 0 experience points.
You gain 500 surplus points (that you can't spend on anything by design)
#122 Aug 29 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Sploder wrote:
I can't see it collapsing right away, Final Fantasy has such a die hard core of fans that will play it no matter what. It just may not do as well as Square hopes it will. I'm just worried that if it doesn't meet their expectations, they may not support "the money hole" with as many expansions or even content updates, thus discouraging even the core group from continuing on due to lack of content.


It would be hilarious if FFXIV eventually ends up with fewer subscribers than FFXI. FFXI still has around 300k subscribers. Games like Age of Conan and WAR have less than 100k and Aion is rapidly falling to that.


If FFXIV ends up like that. Ouch, I'll feel sorry for the devs.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 4:04am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#123 Aug 29 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, it really would suck. I'm hoping it lasts as long as FFXI did because I've been on there since 2004, and while the expansions and updates were somewhat slow, at least they are still coming out with new content for it even with 14 right on the brink of release. SE gets props for that for sure, instead of ditching it all together to try and influence people to switch over to their new release.
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#124 Aug 29 2010 at 1:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know.

I'm still going to play this game on the 22nd, but like I stated before, I STILL don't fully understand this system, and I don't care to learn.

Meaning it needs to be simpler or it needs to be removed.

There are 30 threads on this yet none of them make sense!

The ONLY reason why I'm playing this game is because I love FF.

If I was a newbie to FFXIV I would be WTF? Limiting playtime, I'm out.
#125 Aug 29 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Default
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They aren't kicking you off after X amount of time. It sucks that you can cap out physical exp (but exp curves have been covered in depth by many already) and exp on jobs, but if that happens then switch jobs. I can't see a downside to being versatile. Not too mention if ability's can be shared between job's then leveling others can benefit your main much like a subjob would! I don't like the fact that limit's are in place, but I'm pretty sure they are there for a reason. If you didn't have a subjob leveled in FFXI you wouldn't have even been able to make it to the cap let alone get a party invite. I know it's not FFXI, or even trying to clone it, but the system is there for a reason besides just hindering people.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 3:33am by Sploder
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#126 Aug 29 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sploder wrote:
They aren't kicking you off after X amount of time. It sucks that you can cap out physical exp (but exp curves have been covered in depth by many already) and exp on jobs, but if that happens then switch jobs. I can't see a downside to being versatile. Not too mention if ability's can be shared between job's then leveling others can benefit your main much like a subjob would! I don't like the fact that limit's are in place, but I'm pretty sure they are there for a reason. If you didn't have a subjob leveled in FFXI you wouldn't have even been able to make it to the cap let alone get a party invite. I know it's not FFXI, or even trying to clone it, but the system is there for a reason besides just hindering people.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 3:33am by Sploder


My point is, the more complicated something is the more it will be reduced to something like; 'limiting playtime' and/or defined by the community as it has been as a negative thing. (Because it is negative, compared to other exp systems)

It is in SE's best interest to take a serious look at this system.

WoW blue EXP bar. I haven't played for a while but when I come back I have (this) much until my extra EXP runs out. Simple/positive gain.

FFXI EXP rings. +50% EXP lasts for 3hours and could be used 7 times and can be recharged in a week. With accrued conquest points. Not as simple but pretty straight forward. Plus it is a positive gain.

FFXIV. 100% experience for the first 8 hours. The seven hours after your exp will approach zero. After a week the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.
Any experience earned past that (8 hour?) point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly. Not so simple and a negative system.

I will see moderate players say, "Why is my EXP going down?" I want to level my PUG to 13 this weekend but now I have to play Conjurer? But I don't have gear for Conjurer? I don't want to have to re-spec?

I WILL play other classes, because they are fun, because I will want a particular skill, because I will want to make money, because the community will prefer a certain skill set.

How many 75NIN/2WAR did any of you see in FFXI without a system like this? The community ultimately decides things like this.

If SE's reason is to limit that drive in me to play for 13 hours a day that's not their business. If SE's reason is to limit the gap of casual and hardcore, then I don't know. The hardcore will always be hardcore. They will have more skills and abilities and therefore still be higher than I am.

And as I stated if its to make me play other classes, then I'll do it without this surplus system, and so will most of the community, in time.




Edited, Aug 29th 2010 4:08am by Kierk
#127 Aug 29 2010 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I completely agree with the fact that the whole system should be accomplished via reward system, rather than negative system that limit's players. And like you said the hardcore are always going to be hardcore. I can honestly say that i will probably play a solid 4-5 hours a day weekdays, and a good chunk of the weekend. When it comes down to it, via all the exp curve discussions, I would much rather spread my time out over many classes, than have a steep curve in place to keep people from rushing through. They are going to limit you one way or another, whether it's through the surplus system, or a huge exp grind. I know i started out way on the "hater" side of the surplus argument, but the more I read into it, I can see how it will actually be quite beneficial.
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#128 Aug 29 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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the whole lower exp curve because of this system is false, with current trends, the exp curve is just as hardcore as ffxi currently is, or worse. I did the math. its just going to take 90% of the people a whole lot more actual time to get through the grind. because right now, although its the same exp curve, they have limited your exp to the person who plays the game 8-12 hours a week.
how many hours does it take you to get to level 30 in ffxi, probbaly 16-24
how many hours does it take you to get to level 30 in ffxiv at best 16-24

its not easier, it just feels easier. most people didnt get level 25+ in beta in two weeks. i think in ffxi, i got 25 in like 7 hours, the worst of it being levl 1-12 2 hours to get 12-17 and like 2 more hours to get 17-25
the final level in ffxi, 44k exp? 20k bird parties? do you really think you will be able to get level 49-50 in this game in 2 hours?
#129 Aug 29 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
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Sploder wrote:
I completely agree with the fact that the whole system should be accomplished via reward system, rather than negative system that limit's players. And like you said the hardcore are always going to be hardcore. I can honestly say that i will probably play a solid 4-5 hours a day weekdays, and a good chunk of the weekend. When it comes down to it, via all the exp curve discussions, I would much rather spread my time out over many classes, than have a steep curve in place to keep people from rushing through. They are going to limit you one way or another, whether it's through the surplus system, or a huge exp grind. I know i started out way on the "hater" side of the surplus argument, but the more I read into it, I can see how it will actually be quite beneficial.



I think for the most part you're right, although I think for SE it's the surplus in addition to an EXP grind.

But as an aside, I didn't really like leveling up most of my subs in FFXI. I wanted to be a NIN damnit, and that's what I wanted to be. WAR sub was tolerable, crafting sucked, WHM was horrible. IF and that's a big IF, the jobs in FFXIV are fun and we are in fact able to solo, (meaning if it wasn't at all like FFXI) then it might be OK.

But again, let's say I leveled Gladiator and Maurauder, but it turns out at level 20 groups want a Pugilist skill, I might not be able to grind it out in a weekend. I have to wait a couple of weeks and to me, that won't be acceptable.

In the end (and maybe in open beta) we'll see what really will happen, and I hope that my cynicism will be quelled.
#130 Aug 29 2010 at 4:24 AM Rating: Default
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I think people need to remember, unlike many MMORPGs where you play one class at a time, FFXIV is designed to give players maximum advantage from customising their characters with skills across different classes. Hence, gaining experience on one class isn't necessarily the most optimum form of advancement.

As an analogy, look at FFXI and the subjob system, and in particular the melee jobs (because I have limited experience with magic orientated classes so can't really provide much insight there). In order to optimise any particular melee job (because everything is situational) you would end up levelling just about every subjob.

For example...say you were levelling Samurai. You'd probably start with Warrior as your main SJ through to about 50, then you might tinker with Dragoon as your SJ. By the time you hit endgame, you'd probably end up levelling Ninja for damage mitigation/tanking ability...and most Samurai would level Dancer for Campaign/solo purposes.

So...applying that to FFXIV, you're only helping yourself by obtaining cross-class skills which will optimise your character for each different situation.

Anyway, I wrote this post to divert all the argument from casual vs hardcore. Too much negativity at the moment...we don't even know how this system will evolve.
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#131 Aug 29 2010 at 5:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dik wrote:
I think people need to remember, unlike many MMORPGs where you play one class at a time, FFXIV is designed to give players maximum advantage from customising their characters with skills across different classes. Hence, gaining experience on one class isn't necessarily the most optimum form of advancement.


That doesn't support the implementation of surplus exp though.

If having multiple classes is the optimum path, players would do so anyway. The issue that people are having is being forced by the system to do something else when we may not be in the mood to do.

Here's what happened to me in Beta 2. I heard from others in chat that a storyline quest opened up at Rank 20. I was already leveling Pugilist and Conjurer for their skills, but my highest class rank was on my Gladiator at 16 or so. That story quest was motivation enough for me to switch back Gladiator and level up to Rank 20 on that. Back in Beta 2, no one knew what surplus did other than that it reduced skill gains, but distinctly remember seeing surplus gains in my chat log during this grind.

With the help of guildleves that were off cooldown, I hit Rank 20, but now I know that the grind wouldn't have been so lengthy if it wasn't for surplus.

And after I hit Rank 20 on Gladiator? I went back to skilling up Pugilist and Conjurer anyway because I wanted their skills for Gladiator. Then I hit surplus on Conjurer, but I think I'll stop my story there.

Surplus is an annoyance at best. SE will need to make it fully clear what surplus is and how it works at release in order to avoid mass confusion amongst new players. Not everyone reads forums after all.
#132 Aug 29 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

*ANYONE* that defends this fatigue system that they have in place (which is a penalty system, don't kid yourself) is a complete and utter idiot. You need to actually get off of the collective ballsacks of the development team and use your brain. This system isn't to moderate your playtime. It isn't to get you to try out other classes. It isn't to prevent people from throwing their lives away towards a game.

This system is implemented because there will be absolutely zero endgame content for months. This completely eliminates any and all chance of someone hitting the class cap within a week of pure grinding. It buys them time to attempt to fix all of the content they didn't test in beta, and scramble for actually finishing launch content.

The fatigue system is for the benefit of the developers -- NOT for you.
#133 Aug 29 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't care whether the developers benefit from it also.
All I'm interested in is that I do... (o.0)/
#134 Aug 29 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Dik wrote:
I think people need to remember, unlike many MMORPGs where you play one class at a time, FFXIV is designed to give players maximum advantage from customising their characters with skills across different classes. Hence, gaining experience on one class isn't necessarily the most optimum form of advancement.

As an analogy, look at FFXI and the subjob system, and in particular the melee jobs (because I have limited experience with magic orientated classes so can't really provide much insight there). In order to optimise any particular melee job (because everything is situational) you would end up levelling just about every subjob.

For example...say you were levelling Samurai. You'd probably start with Warrior as your main SJ through to about 50, then you might tinker with Dragoon as your SJ. By the time you hit endgame, you'd probably end up levelling Ninja for damage mitigation/tanking ability...and most Samurai would level Dancer for Campaign/solo purposes.

So...applying that to FFXIV, you're only helping yourself by obtaining cross-class skills which will optimise your character for each different situation.

Anyway, I wrote this post to divert all the argument from casual vs hardcore. Too much negativity at the moment...we don't even know how this system will evolve.
If it's worth leveling multiple classes to learn new skills for one "main" class, people are going to do it whether there is a system in place to force them or not. Besides, the fatigue system isn't forcing you into making good decisions, just decisions. After you're kicked off of your main class you can easily level a separate class that gives very little benefit to that main class.

The "hardcore" players will be leveling multiple classes anyway. I had 8 level 75s by the time I quit FFXI. It was the "casual" players who could never level their other jobs up. The system will just force the "hardcore" players into doing something they were already going to be doing, but at a slower rate.

StrijderVechter wrote:
This system is implemented because there will be absolutely zero endgame content for months. This completely eliminates any and all chance of someone hitting the class cap within a week of pure grinding. It buys them time to attempt to fix all of the content they didn't test in beta, and scramble for actually finishing launch content.
Remains to be seen. There is literally zero information available on what "endgame" will be, and there can be a number of good and bad reasons for that. Knowing SE, it's plausible, but with such a complete void on the topic it's hard to say anything for sure about that.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 11:28am by bsphil
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#135 Aug 29 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
I don't care whether the developers benefit from it also.
All I'm interested in is that I do... (o.0)/


And how exactly would you benefit from this?

No, seriously. As one of the casuals myself, I am asking: How, specifically, does it benefit you personally, to have an arbitrary exp/time limitation imposed, aside from the lulz of seeing all the "hardcores" raging at having their leveling rate throttled?
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#136 Aug 29 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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RajiFarlander wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
I don't care whether the developers benefit from it also.
All I'm interested in is that I do... (o.0)/


And how exactly would you benefit from this?

No, seriously. As one of the casuals myself, I am asking: How, specifically, does it benefit you personally, to have an arbitrary exp/time limitation imposed, aside from the lulz of seeing all the "hardcores" raging at having their leveling rate throttled?


This is the thing that I can't understand about the system. It doesn't actually help the casuals. There's not a bonus, only a penalty. It doesn't matter how they cap my physical level. If the whole concept of this system is to level horizontally, as opposed to vertically, then doesn't forcing the grinders to level other classes give them the distinct advantage that they're trying to remove?
#137 Aug 29 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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the 1% cap came from my understanding that surplus only goes to 99%, It could be 100%. either way, its basically a dead stop. nobody is going to kill 100 mobs for the exp they should have got from 1.

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#138 Aug 29 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Reading all these arguments about surplus/fatigue (not just on this forum), I get the impression that the 'hardcore' players are just a bit frustrated that they can't rush past the 'casual' players, and that everyone will be on a more level playing field.

I consider myself to be 'hardcore' more than 'casual', but I don't really have a positive/negative opinion about this system. I plan on leveling many classes. Since most people have said that it doesn't give you a huge bonus having the physical level of 20 on a class that's rank 10 (for example), I don't see why having this limited matters all that much. The one class I leveled in beta was pugilist, and my physical level was always ahead of my class rank anyways.

As an alternative to fatigue/surplus, SE could have just simply increased the exp required to rank up, or simply decreased the amount of skill/exp you obtain per kill. Would you rather have prolonged experience sessions, or bonuses to exp at the beginning (akin to EXP bands in XI)? I for one would rather have the bonuses at the beginning, saving me time on exp so that I can enjoy the other aspects of the game, such as excellent story lines and lore that SE produces in most of their work. If XIV is anything like XI, there will be plenty to do besides level.
#139 Aug 29 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll say again, the rating down of people just because you disagree with them needs to stop. Rate-downs are for trolls, ********, spammers, and the unbearably idiotic. Rate ups are for good posts. Welcome to zam.
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#140 Aug 29 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't like the fatigue system but I will still play FFXIV because I wanted to try a new mmo. With all these threads about the fatigue system, be it negative or positive, I see "hardcore" players being demonized as being bad for this game and previous games. Previous posts point out that hardcore players don't want the fatigue system because they won't be able to level just ONE class. My experience playing alongside "hardcore" players that these type of players DO EVERYTHING to an extreme. Meaning that they will grind out xp while getting whatever is needed to stay ahead of the playerbase. Be it leveling subjobs, etc.

Fatigue system or not, hardcore players will level other classes because that is their mentality. A previous poster pointed out that many casual players are the ones who don't level other classes because they don't have enough time to stop the progression of the main class to level a subjob. I don't see that stopping in FFXIV.

Those who are against the fatigue system either adapt to the game or not play it, plain and simple. Hardcore players will be forced to level 4-5 classes while waiting for fatigue timers to reset. That is what I am planning to do. With all the additional class skills open to me, I will be able to cuztomize my hotbars with a wider range of skills and battle regimen. To me, that is something hardcore players might think about as casuals will be casuals and won't be able to match the number of availiable skills to them.
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#141 Aug 29 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I'll say again, the rating down of people just because you disagree with them needs to stop. Rate-downs are for trolls, @#%^s, spammers, and the unbearably idiotic. Rate ups are for good posts. Welcome to zam.


Rate-ups and rate-downs are for whatever the rater want them to be for, as long as it's not karma-camping posters or threads.

It's not your place to tell people how to rate posts.
#142 Aug 29 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I'll say again, the rating down of people just because you disagree with them needs to stop. Rate-downs are for trolls, @#%^s, spammers, and the unbearably idiotic. Rate ups are for good posts. Welcome to zam.


Karma system working as intended.



Sorry but you made it sooooo easy.
#143 Aug 29 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Rate-ups and rate-downs are for whatever the rater want them to be for, as long as it's not karma-camping posters or threads.


That's not the intended purpose of the system. You know that.

And I believe per the zam definition, there is plenty of camping at play here.

@Redyoshi, I know.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#144 Aug 29 2010 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Reading all these arguments about surplus/fatigue (not just on this forum), I get the impression that the 'hardcore' players are just a bit frustrated that they can't rush past the 'casual' players, and that everyone will be on a more level playing field.


While I'm sure there are a few people who actually want to be the first, I don't think most players actually care how fast others play. I think I've read one post complaining about casuals being the same level as him, and I think that guys a jerk. The only people posting about other players, are the few people posting that they don't want "hardcores" going past them. I think anyone concerned with how others are progressing are kinda selfish.
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