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The point allocation System (Stats)Follow

#1 Aug 26 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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I think most don't know that this is in the game or don't know exactly how it works. So i am going to explain it and also give my 2 cent's why i think its failing at the current setup.

You get a certain amount of Points every level to put into basic stats and elemental resistances. 1-10 you get 6 points 10-20 you get 8 points per level.

You start with everything at 15 points. Thats 15 STR, VIT, DEX etc.

It costs 1 point to raise the stat until it reaches 40. Then it costs 2 points to raise the stat 1 point. I assume it will continue to rise like that.

At first look it seems to give you a great deal of flexibility to assign your stat points. Something that encourages diversity and individuality.

Taking a closer look however we find that this is just another time sink to slow you down.

Let's say you want to change form Gladiator to Conjurer to get Cure and maybe some other spell you want to use to make a Paladin like build.

Your Gladiator had 80 VIT and 60 STR. The rest is at 15. Obviously this won't be much use on your Conjurer so SE beeing nice added a little button that let's you re-distribute your points.

Awesome you say, indeed it would be if it would reset them 100%. Sad fact however is, it only allows you to re-distribute a certain amount.

But fear not, SE has a solution for you. You can press that little button every 30 Minutes, yay! Thank you SE.

This has been tested in B3 and it took said 80VIT/60STR Gladiator "just" 3 hours to switch to a 80INT/60MND Conjurer.

Discuss!
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#2 Aug 26 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE obviously wants players to be able to switch from Pugilist to Miner on the fly, but does not want players to be able to switch from Conjurer to Gladiator in the middle of long battles/Guildleves/Factions etc.

I doubt SE anticipated all the gear swapping that eventually developed in FFXI, but they seem intent on preventing job swapping in FFXIV.

In that sense the point allocation system is a complete success, not a fail.
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#3 Aug 26 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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KindjalFerrer wrote:

I think most don't know that this is in the game or don't know exactly how it works. So i am going to explain it and also give my 2 cent's why i think its failing at the current setup.

You get a certain amount of Points every level to put into basic stats and elemental resistances. 1-10 you get 6 points 10-20 you get 8 points per level.

You start with everything at 15 points. Thats 15 STR, VIT, DEX etc.

It costs 1 point to raise the stat until it reaches 40. Then it costs 2 points to raise the stat 1 point. I assume it will continue to rise like that.

At first look it seems to give you a great deal of flexibility to assign your stat points. Something that encourages diversity and individuality.

Taking a closer look however we find that this is just another time sink to slow you down.

Let's say you want to change form Gladiator to Conjurer to get Cure and maybe some other spell you want to use to make a Paladin like build.

Your Gladiator had 80 VIT and 60 STR. The rest is at 15. Obviously this won't be much use on your Conjurer so SE beeing nice added a little button that let's you re-distribute your points.

Awesome you say, indeed it would be if it would reset them 100%. Sad fact however is, it only allows you to re-distribute a certain amount.

But fear not, SE has a solution for you. You can press that little button every 30 Minutes, yay! Thank you SE.

This has been tested in B3 and it took said 80VIT/60STR Gladiator "just" 3 hours to switch to a 80INT/60MND Conjurer.

Discuss!


First of all, :rates up:
Thanks for something other then a 'surplus means this' thread.
Thanks for the information on the point system.
How do i feel.......I would usually say "SE has a reason for only allowing you to adjust so many points per 30 mins" but honestly I can't think of a justifiable reason for it.
No sir....I don't like it....I don't like it at all.
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#4 Aug 26 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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We're still dealing with the surplus EXP issue. One crisis at a time, please.

:P That...does not sound good. At least we can, umm, go fishing to help kill 3 hours? Yea? Nay?...
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#5 Aug 26 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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akirussan wrote:
SE obviously wants players to be able to switch from Pugilist to Miner on the fly, but does not want players to be able to switch from Conjurer to Gladiator in the middle of long battles/Guildleves/Factions etc.

I doubt SE anticipated all the gear swapping that eventually developed in FFXI, but they seem intent on preventing job swapping in FFXIV.

In that sense the point allocation system is a complete success, not a fail.


It makes me sad though. You get all these great classes to level up. A leveling system that encourages horizontal progression and diversity. But if you actually make use of the system they tell you to wait for some arbitrary timers.

This is not even the worst part. The real kicker is you have to do this every 30 minutes. You can't log out, well you can but you want to log in every 30 minutes or you never get this switched.

What saddens me most is that i can't just switch classes anymore. Why bother leveling them up if i have to spend 3 hours online to make the full switch?

How can a LS replace a mage if he gets disconnected or can't come on short notice if it takes a DD 3 hours to switch? You seriously think people will wait for that to get a planned event done?
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#6 Aug 26 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
SE obviously wants players to be able to switch from Pugilist to Miner on the fly, but does not want players to be able to switch from Conjurer to Gladiator in the middle of long battles/Guildleves/Factions etc.

I doubt SE anticipated all the gear swapping that eventually developed in FFXI, but they seem intent on preventing job swapping in FFXIV.

In that sense the point allocation system is a complete success, not a fail.

Taken from the FFXIV Official Website:

The Armoury system is one of the foundations of the FINAL FANTASY XIV experience, simultaneously being both the impetus behind character development and a key factor determining individual gameplay.

By merely equipping any of a variety of weapons or tools, players can instantly change their active skills, thus enabling them to dramatically alter their style of play as well as their character’s outward appearance. To take an example, let us follow a day in the life of Leeroy.

Leeroy recently chose to begin the journey down the path of the gladiator, trying his hand at the age-old art of swordplay for the first time. Even today, he woke at dawn to spend the daylight hours drilling relentlessly on the tiny wildlife just outside of town. Alas, opportunities often present themselves when least expected...

An Unheralded Invitation

Without prior notice, some friends invite Leeroy to partake in an expedition to some nearby ruins. Upon joining their ranks, however, he observes that the other party members are seasoned warriors and accomplished mages all. Dismayed yet not given to despair, Leeroy sheathes his sword and takes up his well-worn staff, assuming the role of thaumaturge, his most advanced class. He bids farewell to the rodents and worms and races to meet his companions, basking in the confident light of his spellcasting abilities.
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
This may quite possibly be the most epicly failed anti-antitroll trolling attempt.
#7 Aug 26 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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So from what I understand is that:

You start with a certain number attributes set.

But what do you mean that it costs 1 point to raise the stat, what are these points?

I understand that you can only move a percentage of your stats around, however the percentage is not known?

Also if they force you to change jobs, then when you do aren't you pretty much screwed?
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#8 Aug 26 2010 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Taken from the FFXIV Official Website:

The Armoury system is one of the foundations of the FINAL FANTASY XIV experience, simultaneously being both the impetus behind character development and a key factor determining individual gameplay.

By merely equipping any of a variety of weapons or tools, players can instantly change their active skills, thus enabling them to dramatically alter their style of play as well as their character’s outward appearance. To take an example, let us follow a day in the life of Leeroy.

Leeroy recently chose to begin the journey down the path of the gladiator, trying his hand at the age-old art of swordplay for the first time. Even today, he woke at dawn to spend the daylight hours drilling relentlessly on the tiny wildlife just outside of town. Alas, opportunities often present themselves when least expected...

An Unheralded Invitation

Without prior notice, some friends invite Leeroy to partake in an expedition to some nearby ruins. Upon joining their ranks, however, he observes that the other party members are seasoned warriors and accomplished mages all. Dismayed yet not given to despair, Leeroy sheathes his sword and takes up his well-worn staff, assuming the role of thaumaturge, his most advanced class. He bids farewell to the rodents and worms and races to meet his companions, basking in the confident light of his spellcasting abilities.


They lied.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#9 Aug 26 2010 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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I like how you just left out things. There are traits on every job that will reallocate stats. 10str becomes to int or vica versa. Oh, and that transcends how much it normally takes for a stat by the way. If you have 70str and 30int and you equip a 10int to str trait you will have 80str and 20int. Each redistribute at this point in time gives you 25% of your allocated points from each stat, unless I remembered it wrong.

Also, we currently have no clue how much stats effect stuff yet. I like how it's apparently the end of the world because your stats aren't perfectly maxed for you when you change a job. Just because your int isn't unbelievably high it doesn't mean you can't play conjurer after just switching from pugilist.

You couldn't even change your job like that on the fly in xi either. If you just wanted to quickly change sure, it wouldn't take too long. But if you wanted to max out your potential on both you have to get all your gear from your mule, and put all your current gear on that mule.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 11:00pm by Deadgye
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#10 Aug 26 2010 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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deathly809 wrote:
So from what I understand is that:

You start with a certain number attributes set.

But what do you mean that it costs 1 point to raise the stat, what are these points?

I understand that you can only move a percentage of your stats around, however the percentage is not known?

Also if they force you to change jobs, then when you do aren't you pretty much screwed?


15 in every stat is what every character starts with. 15 STR DEX VIT INT MND and PIETY. Also 15 Fire/Earth ...

You get 6 stat and 6 elemental points every time you Rank Up physical not class Rank.

It was hard to tell, for me it seemed like it just took some % amount from all stats you put points into. I could eyball it and say it was roughly 20%.

You are screwed until you re-assigned all stats to your likeing or if you switch between "familiar" classes. Like, PUG to MAR you won't have to change much. But well, that all depends on your Build and individuality.

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#11 Aug 26 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
15 in every stat is what every character starts with. 15 STR DEX VIT INT MND and PIETY. Also 15 Fire/Earth ...

You get 6 stat and 6 elemental points every time you Rank Up physical not class Rank.

It was hard to tell, for me it seemed like it just took some % amount from all stats you put points into. I could eyball it and say it was roughly 20%.

You are screwed until you re-assigned all stats to your likeing or if you switch between "familiar" classes. Like, PUG to MAR you won't have to change much. But well, that all depends on your Build and individuality.


That sounds dumb. So in other words you are gimped unless you pretty much play the same class. So don't try to level say for instance:

THR -> PUG (Wow, I have no STR/DEX)
PUG -> GLD (I sure do have a lot of DEX, but no VIT)
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
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Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#12 Aug 26 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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At a certain level you start getting 8 points instead of six each level. It's somewhere between 10 and 15.

Quote:
You are screwed until you re-assigned all stats to your likeing or if you switch between "familiar" classes. Like, PUG to MAR you won't have to change much. But well, that all depends on your Build and individuality.


Pretty bold words there, planning to back them up or are you just making guess work?
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#13 Aug 26 2010 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
I like how you just left out things. There are traits on every job that will reallocate stats. 10str becomes to int or vica versa. Oh, and that transcends how much it normally takes for a stat by the way. If you have 70str and 30int and you equip a 10int to str trait you will have 80str and 20int. Each redistribute at this point in time gives you 25% of your allocated points from each stat, unless I remembered it wrong.

Also, we currently have no clue how much stats effect stuff yet.


I left out the Guild rewarded stat coversions not to confuse anyone. Also you can't earn them before level 30 or 40 i forgot and are a miniscule 10 STR to 10 INT.

We also know that getting them requires a huge grind of guildleves as they cost 500 guild points and where given completely random form guildleves. This means you grind guildleves like mad to accumulate those points which are already limited to 8/48 hours and are class specific on top of that.

So, yeah i left those out because that **** is even more NOT CASUAL and a timesink!
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#14 Aug 26 2010 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You couldn't even change your job like that on the fly in xi either. If you just wanted to quickly change sure, it wouldn't take too long. But if you wanted to max out your potential on both you have to get all your gear from your mule, and put all your current gear on that mule.


I never had a mule, ever.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#15 Aug 26 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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KindjalFerrer wrote:
Awesome you say, indeed it would be if it would reset them 100%. Sad fact however is, it only allows you to re-distribute a certain amount.

But fear not, SE has a solution for you. You can press that little button every 30 Minutes, yay! Thank you SE.


Oh **** ya! Thank you so much for clearing this up! This had been bothering me but it sounds perfect now.

Some much needed good news!
#16w34v3r, Posted: Aug 26 2010 at 9:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Heh. I'm starting to think that's the trend of SE's marketing.
#17 Aug 26 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I left out the Guild rewarded stat coversions not to confuse anyone. Also you can't earn them before level 30 or 40 i forgot and are a miniscule 10 STR to 10 INT.

We also know that getting them requires a huge grind of guildleves as they cost 500 guild points and where given completely random form guildleves. This means you grind guildleves like mad to accumulate those points which are already limited to 8/48 hours and are class specific on top of that.

So, yeah i left those out because that sh*t is even more NOT CASUAL and a timesink!


You can get them as soon as 10, if not earlier. I got myself 300 pugilist points from doing one guild leve. If 10 stat points are so minuscule then why are you freaking out? Timesink? You use that word, but you obviously have no clue what it means.

deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
You couldn't even change your job like that on the fly in xi either. If you just wanted to quickly change sure, it wouldn't take too long. But if you wanted to max out your potential on both you have to get all your gear from your mule, and put all your current gear on that mule.


I never had a mule, ever.


You didn't max out the jobs in question then, did you? Red mage and thief both require a sh*t-load of gear.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 11:06pm by Deadgye
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#18 Aug 26 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
At a certain level you start getting 8 points instead of six each level. It's somewhere between 10 and 15.

Quote:
You are screwed until you re-assigned all stats to your likeing or if you switch between "familiar" classes. Like, PUG to MAR you won't have to change much. But well, that all depends on your Build and individuality.


Pretty bold words there, planning to back them up or are you just making guess work?


You are going to tell me you getting an invite as 80STR 60VIT conjurer that does as much damage as a level 1 Conjurer with its 15 INT?

I don't think i have to back up anything. If stats mean nothing then why have them in game, if they mean something then you need to re-assing. Is that so hard to understand.

I never got any points and i leveld PUG, CON, TAU and MAR to 20 ish. I got faction points, thats it. It was completely random and people in Beta confirmed that. some got plenty some a little and many got completely screwed.

Anyway i am out it's late.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 5:09am by KindjalFerrer
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#19 Aug 26 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You are going to tell me you getting an invite as 80STR 60VIT conjurer that does as much damage as a level 1 Conjurer with its 15 INT?


Because that's how stats work amirite? 15 int will make you do as much damage as a level 1 Conjurer. Glad you know that for sure, glad we cleared that up. It's not like you have 30 more abilities and multiple traits than a level 1 conjurer has.

Oh, and one redistribute would mean you have at least 48 int.

Quote:
I don't think i have to back up anything. If stats mean nothing then why have them in game, if they mean something then you need to re-assing. Is that so hard to understand.

It's not that stats have no meaning, it's that we have no clue how much of a difference they make. Is the difference between 80int and 48 int on a level 25 conjurer for 30 whole minutes really going to break the game?

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 11:15pm by Deadgye
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#20 Aug 26 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
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You didn't max out the jobs in question then, did you? Red mage and thief both require a sh*t-load of gear.


I had all my jobs over 50. RDM 70 was leveling BLM had him at 63, I think my thf was 57. I had a good bit of gear but I never ran out of room, of course I didn't care what people thought about me so I didn't have the best gear for half of my stuff. I had every +1 elemental staff though! I just sold and re-bought all the gear that was good enough.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#21 Aug 26 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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deathly809 wrote:
Quote:
You didn't max out the jobs in question then, did you? Red mage and thief both require a sh*t-load of gear.


I had all my jobs over 50. RDM 70 was leveling BLM had him at 63, I think my thf was 57. I had a good bit of gear but I never ran out of room, of course I didn't care what people thought about me so I didn't have the best gear for half of my stuff. I had every +1 elemental staff though! I just sold and re-bought all the gear that was good enough.


Then I doubt you'll have a problem since you didn't need to be the best in absolutely everything. I personally maxed out my thief. I was unable to carry everything I needed on me because it would be more than 80 items. I had to plan ahead of the situation and decide which gear sets to leave behind.
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#22 Aug 26 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah I've complained about this system in some old threads, but I do somewhat agree with it now. Both with the basic stats & elemental stats. It sure could make fighting elementals a bit of a joke. Most of the regular mobs probably have their weaknesses as well. You see that mob and quickly open the menu to adjust your stats accordingly. Sounds like you could really cheat the system by changing your stats to make every fight easier. That would be a pain in the *** to constantly do, but maybe some restriction to reallocation is needed.
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#23 Aug 26 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Then I doubt you'll have a problem since you didn't need to be the best in absolutely everything. I personally maxed out my thief. I was unable to carry everything I needed on me because it would be more than 80 items. I had to plan ahead of the situation and decide which gear sets to leave behind.


Even if I leveled everything to max I would probably refuse to carry all that crap. I feel that it was just a way to make people buy another character and well I was not going to do that.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#24 Aug 26 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree that SE should be trying to prevent things like the gear swap situation we had in FFXI, but having to move all your stats in small loads like that is just tedious and stupid. They can just as easily limit it by just allowing a full respec in town, or something like not being able to respec or weapon change withing 15 minutes of each other. In the later case, partial respec would be independant of this timer so that switching between classes with similar stats would be easier.

My worry here is that at later levels, when you have more points that need to be reallocated, that it will take even longer. I'm releived though, to find out that a full respec can be done given enough time. I'd heard that you could only ever respec a certain percentage of allocated points no matter how many times you did it.
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#25 Aug 27 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
KindjalFerrer wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
At a certain level you start getting 8 points instead of six each level. It's somewhere between 10 and 15.

Quote:
You are screwed until you re-assigned all stats to your likeing or if you switch between "familiar" classes. Like, PUG to MAR you won't have to change much. But well, that all depends on your Build and individuality.


Pretty bold words there, planning to back them up or are you just making guess work?


You are going to tell me you getting an invite as 80STR 60VIT conjurer that does as much damage as a level 1 Conjurer with its 15 INT?


you won't know.
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#26 Aug 27 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
JonnyWolf wrote:
I agree that SE should be trying to prevent things like the gear swap situation we had in FFXI, but having to move all your stats in small loads like that is just tedious and stupid. They can just as easily limit it by just allowing a full respec in town, or something like not being able to respec or weapon change withing 15 minutes of each other. In the later case, partial respec would be independant of this timer so that switching between classes with similar stats would be easier.



I agree there should be an option to allow full respect instantly from in town. That solves the gaming of things - but still gives more flexibility. You can still change classes on the fly but stats change slower. A nice compromise to prevent abuse without being annoying.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#27 Aug 27 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Considering that right now the stats don't even seem to do very much, it really doesn't matter. Seems like small bonuses.

Think of it like merits in XI (only currently, merits in XI are probably more important than stats in XI). You couldn't max merit as many skills or stats as you wanted. It didn't mean you were gimped on jobs that you didn't merit and that the system was utterly broken. And it's infinitely easier to change your stats in XIV than your merits in XI.
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#28 Aug 27 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Good
Kachi wrote:
Considering that right now the stats don't even seem to do very much, it really doesn't matter. Seems like small bonuses.

Think of it like merits in XI (only currently, merits in XI are probably more important than stats in XI). You couldn't max merit as many skills or stats as you wanted. It didn't mean you were gimped on jobs that you didn't merit and that the system was utterly broken. And it's infinitely easier to change your stats in XIV than your merits in XI.


Actually there is a thread somewhere on the Beta forum that shows testing of various level increments of stats and how they affect damage. Int does indeed up your magic damage and Str your melee.


Quote:
How can a LS replace a mage if he gets disconnected or can't come on short notice if it takes a DD 3 hours to switch? You seriously think people will wait for that to get a planned event done?



I think a fair solution for this would be to allow people to reassign their stats completely but only in a city (not camp). This way, it would be closer to a Job Change in XI. I don't think SE had it in mind for people to be at some big end-game or mission boss and be able to fully switch classes at will. If I had to guess, I suppose the 30 minute timer would be their way of limiting that.

Honestly though, I think points should just auto assign like they did in XI, only don't refill HP/MP or cure status ailments @ class change. Not to mention most abilities have a use timer put on them when you equip them. You won't be able to just start immediately firing away with everything.

*edit*
looks like people have already said the same thing about changing in town.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 1:07am by Osarion
#29 Aug 27 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
Personally I think this would work better:

The current system but allow you to choose from where you want to allocate the points from. Say you play a job that uses both INT and STR. You decide to switch to another job that uses STR and VIT but not INT. You could use the option to pull a set number of points from your INT pool to reassign to your VIT stat instead. How many points you can pull from your stats overall remains limited but increases as your physical level rises. The timer remains 30 minutes.

If you can at least choose which stats to pull points from is better than having it randomly pull points from a stat here and there. Another feature might be to make use of the surplus EXP by allowing players to spend a certain amount of that surplus EXP in town to redistribute all their stats or perhaps a larger portion. This too has a set time limit to prevent abuse. Of course how the whole surplus EXP thing might work in this scenario I couldn't say... Overall tho if they at least allow us to choose which stats to lower when reassigning our points then it would be more bearable over the current system.
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#30 Aug 27 2010 at 2:40 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
SE obviously wants players to be able to switch from Pugilist to Miner on the fly, but does not want players to be able to switch from Conjurer to Gladiator in the middle of long battles/Guildleves/Factions etc.

I doubt SE anticipated all the gear swapping that eventually developed in FFXI, but they seem intent on preventing job swapping in FFXIV.

In that sense the point allocation system is a complete success, not a fail.


I agree with you, they don't want class swapping on the fly...this can be remedied easily by allowing stat re-allocation by talking to an NPC in town. I think the way they're encouraging swapping classes, especially with [censored] surplus xp [censored] and how it works, I think they need to allow complete swapping of stat points to accommodate to any class play style.
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#31 Aug 27 2010 at 4:27 AM Rating: Good
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Like it was posted in another thread. There is a really simple way to do this.

Anyone with half a brain can see how being able to just switch out classes to their full potential in the field, in other words during fights, can possibly cause balancing issues.

Now with that said, what would be a good option would be to allow people to rearrange 100% of their stats while in a town. What I believe this will do is allow people to be the best at their selected class while still allowing them to be versatile in the field, albeit slightly gimp.

Also, I do hate to bring up the whole surplus EXP thing again but the way the allocation system works and the way surplus EXP works they end up contradicting each other.

On one end of the spectrum Square wants people to switch to different disciplines( surplus EXP ) but then punish them with not being able to play the other disciplines at their full potential.

Suffice it to say that if we are encouraged( read: forced into playing ) other disciplines than we should be able to play them to their fullest.
#32 Aug 27 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree there should be an option to allow full respect instantly from in town. That solves the gaming of things - but still gives more flexibility. You can still change classes on the fly but stats change slower. A nice compromise to prevent abuse without being annoying.


This is the compromise everyone should be unable to disagree with. Redistributing your stats while in town should give you 75-100% of your points back to allocate.
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#33 Aug 27 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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It seemed longer than 30 minutes (the redistribute cooldown) when I was doing this in beta. I could be wrong though. I will agree the system is stupid and completely contradictory to the "ease of changing classes" line. I also agree that a full reset of stats when in a town would be nice.
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#34 Aug 27 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
2 reasons why I don't think this is as big of a problem as people are making it.

1. Stat caps: right now the game doesn't tell you what the max skill level at each rank is, but it is capped. Such that as a conj leveling up, I could balance my magic stats and still have them ahead of my rank cap, to the point that I was wasting them by continuing to pump points into INT. Since in the beta you are gaining physical level faster than rank you should be more evenly distributing your points. This also has the effect that if you are a level 20 PUG and you want to try CNJ you can just switch jobs and you won't be that gimped for the first couple of levels, then if you plan on playing it more you can look into either allocating points to the appropriate stats or redistributing them.

2. Stat redistribution: There are 2 ways right now to change stats. Every 30min you can pull half out of 1 and put them anywhere, which will easily allow you to level a lower level job, just by pulling down 1 of your stats. However, once you are higher level you have the stat moving traits. In beta there were 2 versions 1 that would move 5 points and another that would move 10 points. Once you purchase these they can be equipped anytime and you will very quickly be able to convert a chunk of your physical stats over to magic or vise-versa.

Right now the system really only punishes people with 2 high level jobs that have opposing stats, this could easily be solved if they add more ranks of the stat transferring traits, which they probably already have planned.
#35 Aug 27 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
yeah I agree it doesn't bother me too much Lamnethx but it would still be non-game breaking and also convenient to have a faster way of changing stats within the city... More flexibility isn't a bad thing especially if it can maintain reasonable mid-battle and in the field limits.
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#36 Aug 27 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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dont forget how slow people are.

if you get invited to a group and change classes u get your first click. by the time u get to the group and its fully formed 30 mins have probably passed and you can click again. thats a lot of points already moved around.

HOWEVER i do feel like there should be an option in each main city to reset all points. they should also charge some gil for it. this way you need to go to a specific place and spend money to do it and only really save yourself 2 hours of time for max stat allocation.

honestly though i really dont see this becoming an issue at all for me just like the surplus exp.
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#37 Aug 27 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest I agree with the option of being able to change it all in a city and such.

Now, the reason why I'm posting is because IMO we still havent figured out why SE made it this way. For all the opinions about Elitism and min/max characters this appears to me to be the way SE disencourage this line of tough and try to lead players/characters to more of a average, Jack of All Trades.

This still enables you to spread out all your points so you can be as good a CNJ as a PUG.

Spread just between phisical or magic stats so you will be a good enough CNJ or THA.

Just focus on one/two stats and be the leet CNJ and not so very good at anything else.

Once again, I think this is SE's way to try and divert the comunity from the min/max netality and I for one appreciate it, as mentioned before THF had too many set ups and if you didn't then you were gimp, newb or even noob.
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#38 Aug 27 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Actually there is a thread somewhere on the Beta forum that shows testing of various level increments of stats and how they affect damage. Int does indeed up your magic damage and Str your melee.

Link? I felt the stats did a literal nothing because they never showed any increase on the character screen and I couldn't even detect a change in combat performance. Damage and accuracy were so incredibly varied it made it too hard for me to see any difference.


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- Note
In the Beta version, a character's race, clan, gender, nameday, and guardian do not affect his/her attributes.

I'm assuming this includes stats (str/int/etc.). If so, everyone won't start with 15 base stats.
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#39 Aug 27 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
If they wanted it to cost something, they could just make a full stat reset cost 5 anima. That way you could still do it everyday, but the game still discourages it.
#40 Aug 27 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
2 reasons why I don't think this is as big of a problem as people are making it.

1. Stat caps: right now the game doesn't tell you what the max skill level at each rank is, but it is capped. Such that as a conj leveling up, I could balance my magic stats and still have them ahead of my rank cap, to the point that I was wasting them by continuing to pump points into INT. Since in the beta you are gaining physical level faster than rank you should be more evenly distributing your points. This also has the effect that if you are a level 20 PUG and you want to try CNJ you can just switch jobs and you won't be that gimped for the first couple of levels, then if you plan on playing it more you can look into either allocating points to the appropriate stats or redistributing them.

2. Stat redistribution: There are 2 ways right now to change stats. Every 30min you can pull half out of 1 and put them anywhere, which will easily allow you to level a lower level job, just by pulling down 1 of your stats. However, once you are higher level you have the stat moving traits. In beta there were 2 versions 1 that would move 5 points and another that would move 10 points. Once you purchase these they can be equipped anytime and you will very quickly be able to convert a chunk of your physical stats over to magic or vise-versa.

Right now the system really only punishes people with 2 high level jobs that have opposing stats, this could easily be solved if they add more ranks of the stat transferring traits, which they probably already have planned.


Part of the main draw for ffxiv in SE's eyes is the ability to change jobs whenever you want. You are not fully changing jobs unless your stats change as well. The traits should be there to help boost your character further, not to act as a substitute because your stats won't change for 3 more hours.

Plus, you will spend a huge amount of time to get these traits just to compensate for a system that should be fixed in the first place. Certainly not casual friendly, it makes the whole stats more confusing than anything.

One solution would be to simply store the stats for every class and on changing "recall" them. You could still re-assign every 30 Minutes to optimize your specific class or class build but it would not affect a complete class change.

However, it has become quite clear that they have not really thought through any of their new ideas at all. Best example is the reaction to the surplus experience you can even Rank up on, that's just embarrasing.

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#41 Aug 27 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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@Kindjal: Eh? What do you mean with that last part?
#42 Aug 27 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:

deathly809 wrote:
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You couldn't even change your job like that on the fly in xi either. If you just wanted to quickly change sure, it wouldn't take too long. But if you wanted to max out your potential on both you have to get all your gear from your mule, and put all your current gear on that mule.


I never had a mule, ever.


You didn't max out the jobs in question then, did you? Red mage and thief both require a sh*t-load of gear.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 11:06pm by Deadgye


My buddy has 18 75+ jobs and also has never had a mule. He has good gear across the board and even quite a few jobs that are 3/5 or 4/5 on relic gear taking up mog safe space. He gets by. Personally, it does seem tough. I have all twenty jobs 75 or higher and I use mules, but if I really wanted to I could get by without any. You get 80 inventory spots, 80 mog safe spots, 80 storage spots, 80 mog locker spots and 80 mog satchel spots - 400 inventory spots in total. That's quite a lot of space and if you stay organized (and have good gear that is shared amongst multiple jobs), it is quite feasible to never use a mule.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 4:49pm by Vawn43
#43 Aug 27 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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ChoochZero wrote:
@Kindjal: Eh? What do you mean with that last part?


Sorry keep forgetting not everyone is on the Beta tester site. When this whole surplus discussion started on the Beta tester forums Komoko said something along the lines that the experience indeed goes to an experience pool but they havent thought of using it but will look into the suggestions players have made how to use it (Merits, Bonus exp and the like was suggested).

Now this clearly showed they had no idea what they where doing or why they put it into an experience pool that you can actually level up on. Yes people dinged Rank X Surplus in Beta 3.

This lead to discussions that this experience pool must have been used otherwise since it would be completely insane to remove experience from the player just to store it for the player and have him level up on it.

Still hurts my brain thinking about it.
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#44 Aug 28 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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KindjalFerrer wrote:
Now this clearly showed they had no idea what they where doing or why they put it into an experience pool that you can actually level up on. Yes people dinged Rank X Surplus in Beta 3.

Well, they don't want to put something too good in so players don't start grinding to get surplus for the bonus.

On topic.
I'm not too concerned about the stats as it can (and most likely will) change in the future. However, I think what they want is for players to be able to be the best at one thing if they want but not the best at somethinng completely different at the same time.
"He who chases two rabbits will end up with neither"
Players who'd like to play a hybrid or often switch between different classes can allocate their stat points equally so they can switch jobs on the fly without "gimping" themself too much. They won't be the "best" but they are very flexible instead.

In FFXI you also have a tank and backup tanks but you don't have your main Whm go switch to Pld just because your tank can't join. That's what backups are for.
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#45 Aug 28 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
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How about a possible scenario?

Jim-Bob's been levelling Conjurer. There's some ultra-cool leve or something that gives some really neat item for Conjurer, and it only involves killing an NM as a Conjurer, or something like that. Problem is is that this fight is deep in an area which would be very dangerous and time-consuming to traverse at this level! Well, Jim-Bob just switches to his Marauder, which, while less dangerous, has an easier time fighting through. At the location of the boss fight, Jim-Bob just switches back to Conjurer and is ready to go!

In this scenario, SE meant for this leve to be very very difficult since it gives such a neat reward. How many times has there been a really neat quest item, something everyone would want, that is very easy to get? But being able to completely change jobs in the field and have your stats be absolutely perfect for that job takes away some of the difficulty. You have to strategize and plan, maybe come up with builds for each job that take a middle road, say a Pugilist that can take as much advantage of Strength and Dexterity as it can Intelligence. That way you don't have to completely take out all your points from Intelligence to put into Str + Dex every time you switch.

Besides, in XI your stats got switched instantly when changing jobs because the Moogles are magical in that way. Here you're just putting away one weapon and picking up another.
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#46 Aug 28 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a question though. How many points do they allow you to relocate with each click of the button? That's if you remember.

In a way this has it's good effects and its downsides.

Good thing is that you can't go changing your job drastically in the middle of combat. (Unless you do Marauder > Pug or something).

Downside is if you got home at 8pm and your LS wants you to be a mage but you logged off the night prior as a PUG. Event starts in 20mins and there is no way you're going to have all your points changed over to your mage in time. Guess I'll just stick with Marauder and Pug to make this easy on me lol
#47 Aug 28 2010 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually there is a thread somewhere on the Beta forum that shows testing of various level increments of stats and how they affect damage. Int does indeed up your magic damage and Str your melee.


Differences in damage based on stats have been apparent since alpha. They just don't seem to be especially significant differences.
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#48 Aug 28 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Vawn43 wrote:
My buddy has 18 75+ jobs and also has never had a mule. He has good gear across the board and even quite a few jobs that are 3/5 or 4/5 on relic gear taking up mog safe space. He gets by. Personally, it does seem tough. I have all twenty jobs 75 or higher and I use mules, but if I really wanted to I could get by without any. You get 80 inventory spots, 80 mog safe spots, 80 storage spots, 80 mog locker spots and 80 mog satchel spots - 400 inventory spots in total. That's quite a lot of space and if you stay organized (and have good gear that is shared amongst multiple jobs), it is quite feasible to never use a mule.


Quantity ≠ Quality. You may have all those jobs at 75, but do you have all of those jobs at their maximum potential? Or are they a little bit less than what they could be at. That was the point I was making. To gear 1 job up to be the best it can be in every situation is also impossible as it would take more than 80 slots. When I went to an exp party I left my evasion gear at the mog house because I simply didn't have room for it. And just because you don't have the absolute best, that doesn't mean that you're "gimped".

Quote:
Part of the main draw for ffxiv in SE's eyes is the ability to change jobs whenever you want. You are not fully changing jobs unless your stats change as well. The traits should be there to help boost your character further, not to act as a substitute because your stats won't change for 3 more hours.

Because it's absolutely imperative that you have your stats perfectly optimized for the job you're switching to. So much so that nobody would even want you, right? Please.

Quote:
Plus, you will spend a huge amount of time to get these traits just to compensate for a system that should be fixed in the first place. Certainly not casual friendly, it makes the whole stats more confusing than anything.


Completely leves is spending a huge amount of time? I don't know about you, but the concept of "dailies" and such is something that sits very well with the casual community. It isn't like you have to spend 1-3 hours camping the guildleve counter every day hoping to claim the leve and then hoping that it drops you your trait.
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#49 Aug 29 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
Once you start to work out just how many stat points it takes to get noticeable differences in results, and you take into account the escalating costs/diminishing returns of higher stats, it will become pretty clear that there's not much advantage for hyper specialization in stats. It might take awhile to change from a build that's exclusively Strength and Stamina into a build that's exclusively Intellect and Mind, but the transition from a less extreme stat allocation to another less extreme stat allocation is fairly small, and having the well rounded stat allocation will cost you very little effectiveness in the first place, making it an easy choice to make.

Of course, if you really WANT to be hyper specialized in order to crank out the extra 2% damage or whatever, that's certainly your choice to make, but the cost of that marginal advantage is a marginal disadvantage if you decide to rapidly swap to another class without notice.

IMO it's not different than the racial choices we made in FFXI. I played a hume, for example, because I valued the balanced stat distribution and the ability to swap from job to job as needed. This mean that I some times did less damage as a MNK than an Elvaan or a Galka. It meant that as a RDM I had to place a little more emphasis on MP gear in order to do efficient converts than I would have as a Taru. It also meant though that unlike the Taru, I could swap from RDM to MNK any time I wanted and not feel completely gimped by my stats.

FFXIV gives us far more choice in this regard than FFXI ever did. If you don't like your specialized stat distribution, you can change it in only a few hours rather than needing to re roll a new character from scratch. You can play like a Galka today, and like a Taru Taru later on, or tomorrow. Or you can play like a Hume, all the time. There's a lot of interesting choices you can make.
#50 Aug 29 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Actually there is a thread somewhere on the Beta forum that shows testing of various level increments of stats and how they affect damage. Int does indeed up your magic damage and Str your melee.

Link? I felt the stats did a literal nothing because they never showed any increase on the character screen and I couldn't even detect a change in combat performance.



I doubt I could find the thread again if I looked. Trust me, there was a real thread about it. This'll just have to be one of those times where you trust that your fellow poster is not talking out his @$$ Smiley: cool
#51 Aug 29 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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From what I've read, stats play a very small role in altering your damage/accuracy. That's what I had noticed myself as well. At least, in the beta... which again begs the question: Why would they not release more core content if they want us to test it?

My personal experience is that I forgot to assign my stats for the first several levels. I think it was on marauder or something. Anyway, I took all of the points I had stocked up and put ALL of them into STR (went from 16 or whatever the base stat is to 40+). My damage was nearly unchanged.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 1:22am by bsphil
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