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#1 Aug 26 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno if this has been posted here before, or posted on the beta forums by someone here, or read on the beta forums from someone here, but I thought it was interesting and it sheds a more positive light on the surplus system which seems to make a lot more sense. It seems to have made some people there feel a bit better about the system when you look at it in another sense.

I didn't write this post I am just extracting it from another thread on the beta forums.

Quote:
When designing an MMO, one of the things that needs to go in is some sort of limit on the possible progression of players. Developers need to control the rate at which players can approach the endgame, and other milestones along the way. Usually this is done with an XP curve.

An XP curve is really nothing more than a time sink. Developers decide how long they want certain segments of the game to take--how long they want certain level ranges to last, and ultimately how long it should take players to reach endgame. They then balance the amount of XP it is possible to gain in a given timeframe with the amount required to move beyond a certain a certain point, or level up.

XP gain may give the illusion of progression but that's all it is--an illusion. Gaining XP is not progressing a character. It does not impart any new strengths or abilities by itself. Levels are the real progression. Levels provide increased statistics and new abilities.

In reality, a game is designed and played from level to level, not from one experience point to the next. Being level 57 with 8000 XP towards level 58 doesn't let you do level 58 content any more than being level 57 woth 0 XP towards level 58 does. Being level 58 lets you do level 58 content. The XP required to get from level 57 to level 58 is merely a time sink. You spend enough time grinding it out, and you get to be level 58.

Experience point income is balanced against the total XP required for a level up in such a way as to have players spending a certain amount of time between level ups. This is true in any MMO, and Final Fantasy XIV is no different.

However, FFXIV puts a spin on the system. The developers for FFXIV are looking at it from the perspective that levels are the progression, not XP. XP is certainly not useless, but it is merely a means to an end. They also, like all developers, have in mind a rate at which they want players to reach certain level milestones.

For most MMOs, with a purely XP-based system, if the developers decide that levels should be gained at the rate of 1 per week, players have to grind away all week, making no real character progress, until they get that 1 level at the end of the week. THAT is the progress--regardless of whatever number is in the XP box, it is the 1 level that ultimately matters. And if you can't grind away all week, you don't get it. If it takes you three times as long to rack up the necessary game time, you get no progress on your character at all for three weeks.

The fatigue system is also a time sink, but functions a bit differently. It still works off of the concept that players should only attain a certain amount of progression per week, but it doles out that progression more quickly up front. This has two important effects. First, it means that even those who cannot play 6-8 hours a day every day can make some progress. Not as much overall, but some. Second, it means that after the week's progression on one class has been reached, players are free to mess around with others--a level of freedom and diversification that most games don't have.

Make no mistake; if SE decides that you should only gain 3 levels in a class per week, then that is all you will gain. Without fatigue--with a basic XP system--all your play time in that week would be devoted to a single class as XP requirements increase to compensate, and wanting to level something else would mean sacrificing progression in that one class.

With the fatigue system, instead of sacrificing XP time to do things that don't involve leveling your main class, you get to have all the XP you'd normally get for the week anyway, and then focus on other aspects of the game. Want to level another class? Go do it. Want to quest? Sure. How about crafting? Also an option. Or maybe you just want to explore. In other MMOs, all of these activities come at the cost of XP. That is not the case here. And if you really want to grind away at one class well, you can hop on it at the beginning of the week, and still have time to hit it again later in the week after surplus has cleared from not leveling it. Bonus!

Final Fantasy XIV was designed with a certain philosophy. The fatigue system is part of enacting that philosophy. It is no more limiting than a standard XP system, as progression is balanced around it. It offers more freedom than conventional systems, simply by allowing for different allocations of play time with no penalty. Can it stand some tweaking and balancing? Probably. But doing away with it entirely will cause a progression rebalance what will completely undermine any kind of horizontal character development, as well as force unnecessary choices between whether to XP a main class, or do anything else. And the ultimate gain on main class progression will be no different.


Edit (summary): Basically, when you play other MMOs such as WoW or even FFXI, the amount of time it takes to get a level increases as you get stronger. For those who power level, much more time is dedicated to leveling, and you do not have time for anything else. It could take you several days to get a level in FFXI or WoW at a higher level by sacrificing everything else (quests, crafts, RP, whatever), but with surplus you level up at about the same time as those other games without having to stress about power leveling. And you have more time to do other stuff. Basically, it would take you the same amount of time to get to that high level but you also get to experience much more.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 1:55am by Rjain
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#2 Aug 26 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
Rjain wrote:

...

For most MMOs, with a purely XP-based system, if the developers decide that levels should be gained at the rate of 1 per week, players have to grind away all week, making no real character progress, until they get that 1 level at the end of the week. THAT is the progress--regardless of whatever number is in the XP box, it is the 1 level that ultimately matters. And if you can't grind away all week, you don't get it. If it takes you three times as long to rack up the necessary game time, you get no progress on your character at all for three weeks.

The fatigue system is also a time sink, but functions a bit differently. It still works off of the concept that players should only attain a certain amount of progression per week, but it doles out that progression more quickly up front. This has two important effects. First, it means that even those who cannot play 6-8 hours a day every day can make some progress. Not as much overall, but some. Second, it means that after the week's progression on one class has been reached, players are free to mess around with others--a level of freedom and diversification that most games don't have.

Make no mistake; if SE decides that you should only gain 3 levels in a class per week, then that is all you will gain. Without fatigue--with a basic XP system--all your play time in that week would be devoted to a single class as XP requirements increase to compensate, and wanting to level something else would mean sacrificing progression in that one class.

With the fatigue system, instead of sacrificing XP time to do things that don't involve leveling your main class, you get to have all the XP you'd normally get for the week anyway, and then focus on other aspects of the game. Want to level another class? Go do it. Want to quest? Sure. How about crafting? Also an option. Or maybe you just want to explore. In other MMOs, all of these activities come at the cost of XP. That is not the case here. And if you really want to grind away at one class well, you can hop on it at the beginning of the week, and still have time to hit it again later in the week after surplus has cleared from not leveling it. Bonus!

]



This is how I've totally interpreted it, and this explaination mademe think more positively about the system.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 10:53pm by Olorinus
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#3 Aug 26 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno. It's articulated well, but it just sounds like spin to me.

Quote:
With the fatigue system, instead of sacrificing XP time to do things that don't involve leveling your main class, you get to have all the XP you'd normally get for the week anyway, and then focus on other aspects of the game. Want to level another class? Go do it. Want to quest? Sure. How about crafting? Also an option. Or maybe you just want to explore. In other MMOs, all of these activities come at the cost of XP. That is not the case here. And if you really want to grind away at one class well, you can hop on it at the beginning of the week, and still have time to hit it again later in the week after surplus has cleared from not leveling it. Bonus!


Smiley: dubious

Being forced to either change classes or stop playing is not a freedom, I don't care how you swing it. Faster leveling progression for casual play can be achieved through an extant system: rested experience. And it does it far more directly and effectively, IMHO.
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#4 Aug 26 2010 at 11:53 PM Rating: Excellent
We just need to merge all these...

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 12:54am by Lamnethx
#5 Aug 27 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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For all the spamming Surplus experience threads this one is indeed a nice point of view.

I guess it's all about perception, but once more it's hard to have the right perception (or even a positive one) if you don't have the necessary information.

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#6 Aug 27 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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That's pretty much how I was starting to see it recently, but didn't have the right words to explain it like they did. When you think about it, the experience you get in game is pretty awesome and if there weren't some system like this in place people would reach max level ridiculously fast. It's just a new system for controlling level rates that sounds horrible on the outside looking in, but really isn't all that bad & should get better as they tweak it. It's not making you switch classes or log off unless the only reason you're playing the game is to level that 1 class and nothing else, which would be pretty silly. No doubt there will be lots of other things to do.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 2:09am by TwistedOwl
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#7 Aug 27 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
It's not making you switch classes or log off unless the only reason you're playing the game is to level that 1 class and nothing else, which would be pretty silly.


It may not be my particular cup of tea, but why would that be silly? I think people should be free to enjoy the game however they'd like, personally. If that means playing just one class exclusively for periods, then so be it.
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#8 Aug 27 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Default
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Well, if you get 0 EXP due to surplus on a particular class, it's not forcing you to stop playing that class. I mean, if you only play a class to level... well, ok. But you can still play, do quests, party with people, get loot from enemies, do all the same stuff.

I mean, the thing is to look at it in the sense of what this game is offering compared to something like WoW or most other MMOs in terms of EXP curve. Say the system was not there. The only way you're gonna get anywhere quickly with leveling is to do nothing but level. For a long time. Grinding, as people would call it. In this, even though they lock out the EXP from you (and it may possibly be used for something else in the future as they hinted), you still level up at about the same rate in comparison.

If they remove the system, they will probably knock up the EXP curve to insane levels, which just makes it another boring grindfest.
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#9 Aug 27 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
It's not making you switch classes or log off unless the only reason you're playing the game is to level that 1 class and nothing else, which would be pretty silly.


It may not be my particular cup of tea, but why would that be silly? I think people should be free to enjoy the game however they'd like, personally. If that means playing just one class exclusively for periods, then so be it.


I was thinking of the extreme version of that, someone wanting to only play as 1 class the entire time and never bothering to craft, do quests, missions & whatever else is in the game. I think that'd be silly. And again, the idea of being forced to stop doing one thing and try something else in game sounds horrible, but somehow I think it will work out with proper tweaking and won't be the horrible punishment that people fear it will be. Can't wait to test it out in the next beta phase...
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#10 Aug 27 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
Yeah but Eske every other game does it the other way - making you do that one job or sacrifice all your progress and start from scratch. It is just a different kind of "surplus experience" to make you level each class on a different character, for example. Every game has limits.

Having played the game for like all saturday and sunday and then a decent amount monday and some on tuesday, I got level 10 or 11 in botanist, 6 or 7 in puguilist, 9 in conjurer, and 5 in goldsmith... maybe 2 in alchemy

That's a lot of levels. I didn't get surplus even once.

Granted that sort of level progression is pretty fast - but it was fun. And it wasn't linear, but my character is so well rounded already. I was ready to take up mining because it is necessary for goldsmith, and I knew I'd eventually do blacksmith and carpenter because of the metals and the woods.

If they slowed down the progression a bit I probably would be just fine with that because it was pretty turbo. But I am done with games that torture me for five hours for every minor reward.
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#11 Aug 27 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Having played the game for like all saturday and sunday and then a decent amount monday and some on tuesday, I got level 10 or 11 in botanist, 6 or 7 in puguilist, 9 in conjurer, and 5 in goldsmith... maybe 2 in alchemy


I believe surplus starts kicking in around level 15 or so. At least that's what happened to me.
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#12 Aug 27 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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It would have to depend on how reckless SE is with the surplus system.

From a completely objective point of view, forcing people to do something else when they are paying to play a game is a recipe for disaster no matter how you wanna interpret it. If it doesn't affect you, then it's an entirely minuscule system that shouldn't be in the game, but from what I've seen it's meant to affect everyone.

It's like buying cake, and you wanna eat that cake, but then after SE watches you eat a slice of cake they take it away and tell you to eat an apple instead. I paid for my cake, and I wanna eat it.

I don't really care about the system, but it's a bad business method if not balanced correctly.
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#13 Aug 27 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
yeah I was level 13 physical level - but honestly I didn't really need that high of a physical level to play my DoM/DoW jobs. I got so much physical exp from gathering it was sick. I was getting 500 physical experience just by getting an item from a tree. That's riduculous! If after getting 14 levels after four days you are mad because your exp starts slowing down - wow, how long do you expect the game to last?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#14 Aug 27 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
I was thinking of the extreme version of that, someone wanting to only play as 1 class the entire time and never bothering to craft, do quests, missions & whatever else is in the game. I think that'd be silly. And again, the idea of being forced to stop doing one thing and try something else in game sounds horrible, but somehow I think it will work out with proper tweaking and won't be the horrible punishment that people fear it will be. Can't wait to test it out in the next beta phase...


See, I don't think that's silly either, and for the same reason as before. It's a leisure activity; if playing a particular way makes someone happy, then more power to them. I suppose that's neither here nor there though.

To the rest of what you said: I don't mean to suggest that this is a "horrible punishment." In fact, should I play the game, I don't think I'll even personally experience a single loss of exp due to fatigue. But I do think that it's a poor decision on SE's part that reflects badly on them for multiple reasons. Their lack of communication, their secondhand treatment of non-Japanese fans, their refusal to learn from/ignorance of good game precedent, and their stubborn adherence to their esoteric "vision" for the game, are all being brought to the forefront by this issue.

Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Yeah but Eske every other game does it the other way - making you do that one job or sacrifice all your progress and start from scratch. It is just a different kind of "surplus experience" to make you level each class on a different character, for example. Every game has limits.


Well, FFXI had neither surplus/fatigue, nor a limit to a single class per character. This strikes me as a step backwards.

I just don't see what benefit this brings that rested experience doesn't do better, and with less collateral damage.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 2:42am by Eske
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#15 Aug 27 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Yeah but Eske every other game does it the other way - making you do that one job or sacrifice all your progress and start from scratch. It is just a different kind of "surplus experience" to make you level each class on a different character, for example. Every game has limits.


Well, FFXI had neither surplus/fatigue, nor a limit to a single class per character. This strikes me as a step backwards.

I just don't see what benefit this brings that rested experience doesn't do better, and with less collateral damage.



The only thing I can think of is that they prefer for people to level more horizontally. If they don't have enough endgame, then rested exp doesn't help them much.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#16 Aug 27 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Good
which isn't to say they should be excused from having enough endgame - just if that is the case, I can understand why they are trying to fully slow us down.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#17 Aug 27 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Yeah but Eske every other game does it the other way - making you do that one job or sacrifice all your progress and start from scratch. It is just a different kind of "surplus experience" to make you level each class on a different character, for example. Every game has limits.


Well, FFXI had neither surplus/fatigue, nor a limit to a single class per character. This strikes me as a step backwards.

I just don't see what benefit this brings that rested experience doesn't do better, and with less collateral damage.



The only thing I can think of is that they prefer for people to level more horizontally. If they don't have enough endgame, then rested exp doesn't help them much.


That's my guess as well, and I'm not personally very satisfied by that explanation. If that's indeed the case, then I think the more savvy move would be to offer incentives to those playing multiple classes, rather than limitations on those who do not. And if they don't have enough endgame, well, that's an entirely other problem.

I sincerely hope that this is not motivated by a need to cover up a lack of content. I really do.
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#18 Aug 27 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
There are incentives to leveling other classes - you can equip almost every one of their abilities cross class in the case of DoW and DoM - and in the case of DoH - you need almost every class to make progress at all.

The only difference is there is also what people percieve as a "punishment" - but I think that perception is all bad marketing. The other part of the problem is different expectations. Because most MMOs FORCE you to pretty much level 1 type of role at a time, most people feel entitled to the same kind of character development in all games. This game has a different kind of character development. I feel like complaining about having to level horizontally in FFXIV is sort of like complaining that you can only catch certain kinds of pokemon at night in pokemon gold.

The game is all about leveling horizontally. Other games make you level vertically, and because people are used to that they barely think to complain about it.

It is no different, however. It is just a different axis. The progression is the same.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#19 Aug 27 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Default
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Rjain wrote:
I dunno if this has been posted here before, or posted on the beta forums by someone here, or read on the beta forums from someone here, but I thought it was interesting and it sheds a more positive light on the surplus system which seems to make a lot more sense. It seems to have made some people there feel a bit better about the system when you look at it in another sense.

I didn't write this post I am just extracting it from another thread on the beta forums.

Quote:
When designing an MMO, one of the things that needs to go in is some sort of limit on the possible progression of players. Developers need to control the rate at which players can approach the endgame, and other milestones along the way. Usually this is done with an XP curve.

An XP curve is really nothing more than a time sink. Developers decide how long they want certain segments of the game to take--how long they want certain level ranges to last, and ultimately how long it should take players to reach endgame. They then balance the amount of XP it is possible to gain in a given timeframe with the amount required to move beyond a certain a certain point, or level up.

XP gain may give the illusion of progression but that's all it is--an illusion. Gaining XP is not progressing a character. It does not impart any new strengths or abilities by itself. Levels are the real progression. Levels provide increased statistics and new abilities.

In reality, a game is designed and played from level to level, not from one experience point to the next. Being level 57 with 8000 XP towards level 58 doesn't let you do level 58 content any more than being level 57 woth 0 XP towards level 58 does. Being level 58 lets you do level 58 content. The XP required to get from level 57 to level 58 is merely a time sink. You spend enough time grinding it out, and you get to be level 58.

Experience point income is balanced against the total XP required for a level up in such a way as to have players spending a certain amount of time between level ups. This is true in any MMO, and Final Fantasy XIV is no different.

However, FFXIV puts a spin on the system. The developers for FFXIV are looking at it from the perspective that levels are the progression, not XP. XP is certainly not useless, but it is merely a means to an end. They also, like all developers, have in mind a rate at which they want players to reach certain level milestones.

For most MMOs, with a purely XP-based system, if the developers decide that levels should be gained at the rate of 1 per week, players have to grind away all week, making no real character progress, until they get that 1 level at the end of the week. THAT is the progress--regardless of whatever number is in the XP box, it is the 1 level that ultimately matters. And if you can't grind away all week, you don't get it. If it takes you three times as long to rack up the necessary game time, you get no progress on your character at all for three weeks.

The fatigue system is also a time sink, but functions a bit differently. It still works off of the concept that players should only attain a certain amount of progression per week, but it doles out that progression more quickly up front. This has two important effects. First, it means that even those who cannot play 6-8 hours a day every day can make some progress. Not as much overall, but some. Second, it means that after the week's progression on one class has been reached, players are free to mess around with others--a level of freedom and diversification that most games don't have.

Make no mistake; if SE decides that you should only gain 3 levels in a class per week, then that is all you will gain. Without fatigue--with a basic XP system--all your play time in that week would be devoted to a single class as XP requirements increase to compensate, and wanting to level something else would mean sacrificing progression in that one class.

With the fatigue system, instead of sacrificing XP time to do things that don't involve leveling your main class, you get to have all the XP you'd normally get for the week anyway, and then focus on other aspects of the game. Want to level another class? Go do it. Want to quest? Sure. How about crafting? Also an option. Or maybe you just want to explore. In other MMOs, all of these activities come at the cost of XP. That is not the case here. And if you really want to grind away at one class well, you can hop on it at the beginning of the week, and still have time to hit it again later in the week after surplus has cleared from not leveling it. Bonus!

Final Fantasy XIV was designed with a certain philosophy. The fatigue system is part of enacting that philosophy. It is no more limiting than a standard XP system, as progression is balanced around it. It offers more freedom than conventional systems, simply by allowing for different allocations of play time with no penalty. Can it stand some tweaking and balancing? Probably. But doing away with it entirely will cause a progression rebalance what will completely undermine any kind of horizontal character development, as well as force unnecessary choices between whether to XP a main class, or do anything else. And the ultimate gain on main class progression will be no different.


Edit (summary): Basically, when you play other MMOs such as WoW or even FFXI, the amount of time it takes to get a level increases as you get stronger. For those who power level, much more time is dedicated to leveling, and you do not have time for anything else. It could take you several days to get a level in FFXI or WoW at a higher level by sacrificing everything else (quests, crafts, RP, whatever), but with surplus you level up at about the same time as those other games without having to stress about power leveling. And you have more time to do other stuff. Basically, it would take you the same amount of time to get to that high level but you also get to experience much more.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 1:55am by Rjain
The problem with all of this is that it's too **** slow. How many of us can remember when 4k a hour was acceptable in FFXI? 6k was fricking uber. How many players did FFXI lose during the early years because of the stupid grind? Sounds a lot like FFXIV is just going to repeat history if you ask me, just in a different manner. I understand developers have their ideas and the like but unfortunately for them they either have to please the customer or have no customers left to please when it comes to MMOs. There is no room for the typical offline game ideal where a developer is selling their creation for a one time fee. You want people to keep paying you every month then you better deliver the goods, and we done found out the majority of gamers do not want to grind their exp. So, ultimately, again, it's looking like FFXIV is headed for a FFXI repeat, because no matter how you go about it, grinding is grinding. It's a slow painful process. So unless it's incredibly easy to level up i.e. not take several days to get one level at any point, EVER, I think there's going to be many disappointed gamers.

How many of us would still be playing FFXI today if we were still in the 4-6k a hour exp range? How many of you have quit long ago because of the grind? I rest my **** case. If nothing else this system just guarantees that in the future it will be adjusted to permit higher exp gains. It might take 4+ years, though.
#20 Aug 27 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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Eske, Star Breaker wrote:


That's my guess as well, and I'm not personally very satisfied by that explanation. If that's indeed the case, then I think the more savvy move would be to offer incentives to those playing multiple classes, rather than limitations on those who do not. And if they don't have enough endgame, well, that's an entirely other problem.

I sincerely hope that this is not motivated by a need to cover up a lack of content. I really do.


I hate to go conspiracy theorist but that thought's been crossing my mind as well. Another thing they don't mention, but seems to be 1 reason for these new systems, is the fight against RMT. This leveling system coupled with the retainer/market system & easily attainable gil seems to really ***** them over. Which I love, but then fear they may go too far and ***** us honest players over in the process. Hopefully it doesn't come to that....
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#21 Aug 27 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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I feel like complaining about having to level horizontally in FFXIV is sort of like complaining that you can only catch certain kinds of pokemon at night in pokemon gold.


This is probably my favourite comparison ever.

"Why should I be forced to catch a Pokemon at night? I should not have to be awake at that time to catch this Pokemon. I paid for Pokemon I am entitled to catch all the Pokemon at all times of the day and should not have to wait."
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#22 Aug 27 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Excellent
Voldermolt wrote:


How many of us would still be playing FFXI today if we were still in the 4-6k a hour exp range? How many of you have quit long ago because of the grind? I rest my **** case. If nothing else this system just guarantees that in the future it will be adjusted to permit higher exp gains. It might take 4+ years, though.


That is the whole point. What makes FFXIV not like FFXI is that instead of having timesink grinds it has surplus exp. - which means you need to play fewer hours to get new skills on a job but you are limited to a certain amount of skill progression in each job per week. This means you get more skills to try out per week and learn more powers per week and gain more craftskills per week. You just can't spam the same thing over and over and hope to get full credit for it.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#23 Aug 27 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
Rjain wrote:
Quote:
I feel like complaining about having to level horizontally in FFXIV is sort of like complaining that you can only catch certain kinds of pokemon at night in pokemon gold.


This is probably my favourite comparison ever.

"Why should I be forced to catch a Pokemon at night? I should not have to be awake at that time to catch this Pokemon. I paid for Pokemon I am entitled to catch all the Pokemon at all times of the day and should not have to wait."


Exactly.
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#24 Aug 27 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with all of this is that it's too **** slow.


I don't think you understood the point of what was written. The EXP curve in this game is a lot lower than FFXI/WoW. Instead of devoting countless hours to gain one or two high levels in a week like other MMOs, in this one you don't have to spend as much time, except you can't go any higher than that at once.
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#25 Aug 27 2010 at 1:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Impressive.

Good to see some reasonable people start using their brain after all the self-declared hardcore kings have committed public suicide.

I actually didn't expect this.
#26 Aug 27 2010 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, that's how a lot or all games are essentially (they need rules and restrictions) and in many cases people will find other things that they think a game should have despite the intent of the designer. In this case it's because people are trying to apply the 'norm' to a game which is trying not to adhere.

People believe that they should be allowed to play the game however they like as long as it fits their own vision. But what if my vision is that I should be allowed to fly at will and have unlimited money? Why can't I do that in this game and why is such a demand essentially any different from any other demand or change that has been talked about recently?

It's all about perspective and respecting their decisions. While you may not fully agree, some effort should be taken to understand why they have done what they've done.
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#27 Aug 27 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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As early as several years ago I was proposing timed progress caps, and this system is one take on that. Lots of people strongly opposed my suggestions about forcibly slowing player progress, so it's no surprise to see a similar response now.

And all games need limits. Varying levels of freedom and restriction are the defining elements of a game. If you can do anything you want, there is no opposition, no challenge, and no game. It's perfectly reasonable to limit the rate of progress, and in the case of an MMO, it's even desirable in many ways. There are good reasons for progress caps, and now that I know what the progression system is, rather than thinking it was just borked high and low, I'm much more optimistic about it.

Overall it will improve the game pacing and encourage diversification of activities... this doesn't just artificially extend the length of the game, but increases the overall amount of enjoyment to be had from the game. For players who want to hit the highest level the fastest so they can be thought of as the best, it's not as good. But THAT is good for most players, because games are actually more enjoyable for the considerable majority when competition is played down. It's also good for the -truly- hardcore, because hardcore doesn't mean getting to cap ASAP or playing absurdly long hours (a hardcore fan, maybe, but not a hardcore player)-- hardcore means developing a mastery of the game. It means developing skill. And you can develop and display that skill even at early levels, giving a different arena, or context, for that skill, which keeps the dynamic changing and expands the game's interest. Further, you can be recognized for having actual skill rather than having lots of play time.

There are lots of other advantages, but I won't write a dissertation about it. It's interesting to see how the game is shaping up. They seem to be employing a lot of concepts that I've advocated in the past. It's enough to make me suspect that someone is watching me >_>
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#28 Aug 27 2010 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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The whole point that keeps being missed by those who support this is that maybe there are people out there that don't want to level other things, who want to level one thing at a time and not get forced to do something else.

If they want to make it casual friendly they only need implement a rest system like they have in WoW. That way those who want to keep a steady pace on one class whether they be hardcore or casual players can do so equally. Casuals can come in and grab that extra boost to keep up with the hardcore player base while the hardcore players can keep on doing what they are doing. All Square would need to do is adjust the EXP boost one would get from rest accordingly.

The way they are doing it is backwards. They are FORCING people to level classes they may not want to. That, to me at least, does not make a fun game.
#29 Aug 27 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Good
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They are FORCING people to level classes they may not want to. That, to me at least, does not make a fun game.


My thought in a nutshell. I only have interest in one job in this game, maybe two. It saddens me that I could potentially before forced to sign off or just go do something else I don't want to do because my ability to progress has been halted. What's more is they still have not decided on what they should do with all the surplus points people may accumulate. To have surplus points simply thrown in the garbage because they can't think of something useful to do with it while forcing it on the players seems disrespectful to me.
#30 Aug 27 2010 at 5:27 AM Rating: Decent
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SE wrote:
When designing an MMO, one of the things that needs to go in is some sort of limit on the possible progression of players.
Yeah, the last thing players want to do is to progress at their own pace.
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#31 Aug 27 2010 at 5:39 AM Rating: Default
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This is probably my favourite comparison ever.

"Why should I be forced to catch a Pokemon at night? I should not have to be awake at that time to catch this Pokemon. I paid for Pokemon I am entitled to catch all the Pokemon at all times of the day and should not have to wait."


That doesn,t work tbh what it should be is you level a pokemon up to level 20 then the game tell you to swap pokemon and level something else
#32 Aug 27 2010 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
Rjain wrote:
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I feel like complaining about having to level horizontally in FFXIV is sort of like complaining that you can only catch certain kinds of pokemon at night in pokemon gold.


This is probably my favourite comparison ever.

"Why should I be forced to catch a Pokemon at night? I should not have to be awake at that time to catch this Pokemon. I paid for Pokemon I am entitled to catch all the Pokemon at all times of the day and should not have to wait."


Exactly.

Except that's actually a poor comparison because that isn't a limiter. That's just a condition in the game that requires nighttime. This does not halt progression nor demand you to change the way you play. Furthermore, Pokemon is a single player game that you can only pay once, and if you were crafty enough you can just alter the time on your game to make it nighttime.

FFXIV is an MMO that demands one to pay per month. If people are paying the game on a consistent basis, they want to get their money's worth. All these philosophies and comparisons fall short when you see this, which is why I believe Surplus will make or break this game depending on how limiting it is.
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#33 Aug 27 2010 at 6:10 AM Rating: Decent
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If surplus does break anything, then it will only affect those who intended to blast up to LEETUBERLV99 within a week's time.

Ah, and of course the gilsellers who will no more me able to powerlevel new characters every week.
#34 Aug 27 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see how this system slow progress? in fact i see it the same way as other games but with more options.

the exp needed is lower but the time allowed to play is limited, other games do it the other way around: the exp needed is high and with no time limit, so its the same.

but with this system you get to try other things, but with the old system if you want to try other things you lose time and then lose exp.

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#35Rjain, Posted: Aug 27 2010 at 9:04 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) See the people who are complaining about being forced to level something else and feeling we are missing the point are the people who are missing the point that it is not hindering you from progressing. If you only want to play one class, go right ahead and play one class, you don't HAVE to switch classes. Switching classes for the sole reason that you are not getting EXP is a bit silly.
#36 Aug 27 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rjain wrote:
See the people who are complaining about being forced to level something else and feeling we are missing the point are the people who are missing the point that it is not hindering you from progressing. If you only want to play one class, go right ahead and play one class, you don't HAVE to switch classes. Switching classes for the sole reason that you are not getting EXP is a bit silly.

True, everyone has their own opinions, everyone's personal tastes will differ. So there are those who only want to play one class, and there are those who want to experience everything the game has to offer. Being an MMO, there's a lot more to do than just level one class. There's a lot of other games out there where, if you like to do nothing but grind, you can have more than enough fun doing so.

The general summary to the situation is, if you only like to senselessly grind on one class all the time, this game is not for you. Do not play it. Do not pay for it. Do not complain that this is how the game is because it is not FFXI, it is not WoW, it is not any other MMORPG. This game stresses and pretty much REQUIRES you to level multiple classes for tons of reasons, the main one being that you basically make your own job class through character development and customization, incorporating skills from other classes.

The people who fail to see the above point need to find another game it is that simple.

All games have some sort of restriction. This is FFXIV's. Take it or leave it, it is not up to you, the player, to dictate how it works.


I suspected that eventually the other side of this argument would devolve into "If you don't like it, don't play."

If the game truly "requires" players to level multiple classes, then players would level multiple classes, regardless of a fatigue system. That's what happened in FFXI, after all. Switching classes for the sole reason that you are not getting EXP actually makes a fair bit of sense...I don't see what's silly about that.

It's the principal of the thing, I think. I believe that players feel like if the game should be played a certain way, then it should be constructed so that we naturally understand those requirements and react to them accordingly. To be coerced into doing so by penalty systems seems to be an insult of sorts. It's like we can't be trusted to play the game "properly" on our own.
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#37 Aug 27 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Default
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It is not their intention to penalize people. That is what I thought at first but as stated in the original post after thinking about it for a while it's just a more convenient twist on the traditional.

As someone stated, it's less EXP to level with a limit as opposed to more EXP to level with no limit.

So basically, if they remove the surplus system it will turn the game into another grindfest. Their action plan from the very beginning is the game will not be a grind fest.

Plus, if they remove the surplus system, they'd probably have to redo half the game's design for the EXP system would not work the other way around. It just completely defeats the game's goal.

The surplus system is malignant. I highly doubt it will be getting removed. The best thing people can do at this point is just look at the positive side of it, and there is a positive side to it.
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#38 Aug 27 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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I can see that. If SE under the current system believes that you should get 15 levels in the first week, then they are making it so that it is not time consuming to get those 15 levels, and you can take that level 15 class, and do up to level 15 content with it. Or, they remove the system, put more "grind" into it with much higher EXP requirements, so at the end of the week you are still level 15 (if you are a hardcore player, the casuals won't have been able to hit the mark in that case), but that's all you've had time for. Either way, you are going to progress at the speed they dictate, one just gives you the illusion of being able to work towards character progression "more," when in fact you're just working toward the same progression longer. Though, with a pure EXP system you can exploit it in unintended ways, like with Astral Burn...

I can still see the argument against it. Probably, our enjoyment is going to be determined by the psychology of it rather than the reality of it. We'll still feel punished even if we are level 15 at the end of the week in both scenarios. The cage just feels that much more visible with the surplus system; though, believe it or not, the "free grind" (with higher EXP requirements) is still a cage, we just can't see the bars so well. To some minds, that is a lot of what matters unfortunately. :(
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#39 Aug 27 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Rjain wrote:
It is not their intention to penalize people. That is what I thought at first but as stated in the original post after thinking about it for a while it's just a more convenient twist on the traditional.


It doesn't matter if it was their intention or not - the structure and framing of surplus makes it feel like a penalty.

Remember, actions speak louder than words - and as a corollary to that, how you do something matters more than why you do it.
#40 Aug 27 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't read every reply, because I'm pressed for time, but i just wanted to point out, that in my experience, developers have never put a restriction on levels per week, they have put restrictions on levels per game time spent. This is the first game I've seen telling me how much game time I can spend on a class productively in a week, which is my problem.


Honestly, I don't mind the system all that much, its not a deal breaker for me. It'll encourage me to spend time crafting sooner than i would have normally, which isn't all that bad. The issue I see is that this is going to chase off a good, and possibly significant, portion of the NA players who would have tried it out.

My other issue with it, is that it prevents people from power leveling a class to catch up with friends. I hope this system is done away with by the PS3 release.
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#41 Aug 27 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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My other issue with it, is that it prevents people from power leveling a class to catch up with friends. I hope this system is done away with by the PS3 release.


If they removed the surplus system, the only way you'd be able to "power level" is if you did something like a Summoner Burn as in FFXI, which at this point would probably be non-existant in this game. It would take just as long, if not longer, to reach the same level due to the insane increase in the EXP curve that would be inevitable with the removal of the system; therefore, you would have no time whatsoever to do anything else in the game but level.
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#42 Aug 27 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
SE wrote:
When designing an MMO, one of the things that needs to go in is some sort of limit on the possible progression of players.
Yeah, the last thing players want to do is to progress at their own pace.
Progressing at their "own" pace is an illusion. Developers always control the rate of progression by controlling the amount of exp required, the difficulty of earning it or introducing/removing roadblocks. If they remove this surplus system, what's going to change is they will just reduce the amount of exp you earn per kill/quest/mission/whatever, increase the amount of exp needed to go up a level, increase the difficulty of earning exp, or set up roadblocks of some sort at certain intervals. No matter which way you cut it, the only pace people will progress in levels is at SE's pace.
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#43 Aug 27 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, after reading the above, seeing the pre-release trailer and seeing the pre-release trailer again... and again. I honestly think Square Enix will make the system fair enough to where it will cater to hardcore and the casuals. I mean when I played Beta I really didn't level or kill anything unless a Guildleve had me doing it. I wasn't all random and fighting everything. I was actually spending a lot of my time exploring, talking to npcs and fishing. So in hindsight I think the system will be fine. There is going to be so much to do in the beginning non-exp wise it sounds like.

And honestly, it's probably what you would want to be doing as a big group of friends is exploring and knocking out the missions that are in the game as well as your daily guildleve. Like I said in another thread, I will give SE the benefit of the doubt and just see what Open beta is like.

They took the extra step and said they would adjust it accordingly. I think all we can do now is just provide feedback and hope for the best. Okay, off to watch that epic trailer again. I am thinking of simultaneously streaming it on JustinTV, Ustream, Livestream etc in the two weeks leading up to the release. Doesn't hurt to have newer friends and fans to play with.
#44 Aug 27 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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#45 Aug 27 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My other issue with it, is that it prevents people from power leveling a class to catch up with friends. I hope this system is done away with by the PS3 release.


If they removed the surplus system, the only way you'd be able to "power level" is if you did something like a Summoner Burn as in FFXI, which at this point would probably be non-existant in this game. It would take just as long, if not longer, to reach the same level due to the insane increase in the EXP curve that would be inevitable with the removal of the system; therefore, you would have no time whatsoever to do anything else in the game but level.


Sorry, by power leveling, I don't mean anything like the astral burn method, or various other quick leveling methods, I really just meant someone taking a long weekend, and spending a lot of time leveling to catch up. I was thinking of back to my old LS/Guild's where if a healer quit, someone in the group could quickly level a healer in a week or 2, then the group could continue on progressing.
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#46 Aug 27 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry, by power leveling, I don't mean anything like the astral burn method, or various other quick leveling methods, I really just meant someone taking a long weekend, and spending a lot of time leveling to catch up. I was thinking of back to my old LS/Guild's where if a healer quit, someone in the group could quickly level a healer in a week or 2, then the group could continue on progressing.


All I could suggest is to wait and see what it's like. When one is faced with a wall they can choose to either stand there and hit their heads against it, or they can walk around it, bash through it, or get a friend to help them climb over it. Regardless, there's always a way around a problem. This game works significantly different than other games in terms of parties and leveling and classes and pretty much everything else.
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#47 Aug 27 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Rjain wrote:
It is not their intention to penalize people. That is what I thought at first but as stated in the original post after thinking about it for a while it's just a more convenient twist on the traditional.

As someone stated, it's less EXP to level with a limit as opposed to more EXP to level with no limit.

So basically, if they remove the surplus system it will turn the game into another grindfest. Their action plan from the very beginning is the game will not be a grind fest.

Plus, if they remove the surplus system, they'd probably have to redo half the game's design for the EXP system would not work the other way around. It just completely defeats the game's goal.

The surplus system is malignant. I highly doubt it will be getting removed. The best thing people can do at this point is just look at the positive side of it, and there is a positive side to it.


Ah, but that's where your rose colored glasses do you no good.

Komoto wrote:
Surplus points currently have no use. However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system.


Penalizing people is EXACTLY the point of the system, as evidenced by the fact that Komoto came out and flatly said that they don't want to add a reward to it because a reward would be a GOOD thing that people would WANT and that they DON'T want people to want that.

So yeah, it has nothing to do with "look at the positive side of it". I'll just go Godwin's Law here and use the "But what about all the good things Hitler did?" analogy. No, I'm not comparing surplus XP to *****, I'm simply saying that some systems are just bad systems designed with the intent to punish people, and "looking on the bright side" does not make the punishment any better to those getting punished by it. Neither does "Well, it won't affect me, so I don't care about the people it DOES affect; I think it's a GREAT idea."

Point blank, there are two major camps on this issue. The biggest is the one that believes it to be a bad idea that needs to be changed drastically or removed altogether. A smaller camp is the group of people who will not be affected and therefore think that a system that punishes people is fine, just so long as it doesn't punish them.

I have yet to see someone come out and say "I plan to play for 50 hours a week, I'll probably get my XP nerfed to ****, and I think this system is awesome". The only people who are in favor of this system are the ones who do not think they will be affected by it. That, right there, should be a HUGE clue to how bad the system is.
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#48 Aug 27 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Default
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Since I'm in love with surplus, I decided to come here and throw in my 2 cents. There is no penalty to hardcore players here. There is only an illusion of a penalty. If instead of this system, they implemented a "bonus" experience system which rewarded 3x experience gain for the first 8 hours you played every week, then dropped that bonus to 2x at 10 hours played, then dropped it again to 1x at 13 hours played, then went from 1x to 10% normal experience at 15 hours, all the while allowing a bonus exp. refresh anytime you are not leveling, many viewpoints would change.

Allow me to demonstrate the math, assuming a rate of 2k normal experience per hour:

"Bonus" experience/Surplus system
hours 1 - 8: 2000(x3 bonus) per hour x 8 hours = 48,000
hours 9-10: 2000(x2 bonus) per hour x 2 hours = 8,000
hours 11-13: 2000(no bonus) per hour x 3 hours = 6,000
hours 14-15: 2000(x .1 for the "penalty") per hour = 400
Total exp: 62,400
Total hours: 15

"Normal" system
Hours 1-31: 2000 per hour x 31 hours = 64,000
Total exp: 62,000
Total hours: 31

As you can see, in order for the surplus system to be a penalty, you would have to grind upwards of 31 hours on one class per week. I don't think a lot of players are going to do this, however, I understand that there are those among us who would like to do this. Well, it may sound harsh, but perhaps there are other games which would better suit the way in which they would like to play.

Edit: a small multiplication error or a typo... sorry for that.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:14pm by bunsisbuns
#49 Aug 27 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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So if they lower the normal exp gained for standard kills/synths and create a bonus exp to reward people for switching classes more often, basically reversing the system...how is that not the same exact thing save for the pyschological idea that it's a reward instead of a punishment? The end result would be the same...

I also think the people outraged about it assume it's going to "punish" them a lot more than it is

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:11pm by TwistedOwl
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#50 Aug 27 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I have yet to see someone come out and say "I plan to play for 50 hours a week, I'll probably get my XP nerfed to ****, and I think this system is awesome". The only people who are in favor of this system are the ones who do not think they will be affected by it. That, right there, should be a HUGE clue to how bad the system is.


Usually when I play MMOs I play for about 10-14 hours a day leveling, so do my friends. This is not the case anymore due to the fact that I manage a business and I'm also a university student. I, nor my friends, have a problem with this system anymore.

At first, I was on the edge about the system. Then I greatly hated it and thought it was horrendous. Then I was on the edge again. Now, I've come to the point that if this system is NOT included in the game, I will be pretty ****** off, and so will a good deal of my friends.

Instead of weighing on the negatives to everything and actually spending some time to consider the benefits of this system, we realize that it is not a problem. It is only a problem to people who make it into a problem. I have no time for those people.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:12pm by Rjain
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#51 Aug 27 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Point blank, there are two major camps on this issue. The biggest is the one that believes it to be a bad idea that needs to be changed drastically or removed altogether. A smaller camp is the group of people who will not be affected and therefore think that a system that punishes people is fine, just so long as it doesn't punish them.

I have yet to see someone come out and say "I plan to play for 50 hours a week, I'll probably get my XP nerfed to ****, and I think this system is awesome". The only people who are in favor of this system are the ones who do not think they will be affected by it. That, right there, should be a HUGE clue to how bad the system is.


I'm not in either of the camps you mentioned, at least not strictly. I plan on playing this game something like 28~36 hours per week. Potentially even more than that in some cases. I was a hardcore player in FFXI as well. I would grind up one job I liked completely, and then grind up another job I liked completely. When I quit a year ago, I had 7 jobs leveled to 75 in that manner (though I didn't start playing at launch). I leveled (and enjoyed leveling) in such a manner that the current surplus system would be a hindrance to. However, the surplus isn't going to affect me personally. Not because I am a casual player; time-wise, I'm the opposite of the type of player they created this system for. I just plan on adapting to the system, and leveling the jobs I have interest in simultaneously to avoid surplus (without playing for any less time than I did in FFXI). I'm willing to do that, and I expect I will enjoy it, even though it was not my preferred method during the five or so years that I played FFXI.

However, I DO care about the effect the system might have on other people's experiences, and I hope that the system is adjusted in such a way that those people's fears/concerns are alleviated. If the system as it stands now is truly going to alienate all these forum-goers in the way they are expecting it to, then I hope it gets changed to something more palatable to them.

I won't be affected (by choice, not by chance) and I DO care. I'm just surprised there aren't more (vocal) people in my "Camp 3," who are just willing to go with the flow. (This may include the people who are willing to "give it a shot," but I'm moreso referring to people who know for a fact that they are willing to adapt to the system even if it doesn't suit previous playstyle preferences.) Is there anyone else?
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