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#52 Aug 27 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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I get it now.

7 days from level X to level Y is 7 days, whether you spend 7 days of straight grinding, or whether you spend 20 hours grinding with 6 days in between to focus on other things.

Maybe I'm in the minority here. . . but I actually ENJOY grinding ala FFXI. I feel they set the Experience to level bar WAAAY to high post level 60, but I still enjoyed the grind [obviously that's back when you could get parties]

So what happens in a few months when those people who enjoy the grinding start butting up against level caps because they've "done it all"? I'm not saying it WILL Happen, I'm simply projecting a "What if" scenario. You're capped horizontally, and now you have nowhere to turn to get your grind fix.

MAYBE It's the same thing as vertical leveling in the end [maxing out one class before moving on to the next] but wouldn't it have the same effect?

I know there are other things, but I want to separate the act of leveling from everything else in the game because it's one of the things I enjoy most. Now I'M getting cheated, not because I'm being forced to level something else, but BECAUSE I was forced to level other things, I've managed to level EVERYTHING since it takes exponentially less "Grind time" to achieve.

Does that make any sense?

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#53 Aug 27 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
seneleron wrote:

I know there are other things, but I want to separate the act of leveling from everything else in the game because it's one of the things I enjoy most. Now I'M getting cheated, not because I'm being forced to level something else, but BECAUSE I was forced to level other things, I've managed to level EVERYTHING since it takes exponentially less "Grind time" to achieve.

Does that make any sense?



It does make sense. Unfortunately if you get it your way the people that don't have as much time to grind don't get to enjoy even a fifth of the content. I accept that there should be rewards for people who have more time to put into them - and that not everyone deserves or gets to try everything or max out everything or have the best gears.

However, I do think FFXIV will strike a better balance than say FFXI - where I played for two years and didn't get to see even 1/20th of the content because the time sinks were so huge on everything.

If I can see 1/4 or 1/5 of the content by playing at my pace, I think that is reasonable. I'll probably be putting between 10 and 20 hours a week into playing - so if there is 4 times that amount of content available - someone could be putting in 80 hours a week and not running out of content - which does seem like it ought to be enough.

Each individual is hoping this game pleases them and suits their play time and expectations. SE can't please everyone 100 per cent - but I do think they are trying to be more cognizant of the large numbers of people out there that want to enjoy an mmo without playing all day every day. Part of being able to enjoy it however is feeling like content is reasonably accessible (not necessarily easy - but accessible) - difficult level capped dungeons and bosses are good for that, but making it so someone with a medium amount of time to spend gets to enjoy a significant portion of the game is also part of that.

There will still be grind - it will just be grind with more frequent rewards. Also SE is going to have new content and new jobs all the time. They are already talking about adding new classes.



Edited, Aug 27th 2010 2:12pm by Olorinus
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#54 Aug 27 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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As far as the thread itself goes tl;dr. As for the OP, I say bravo. No more rushing to the level cap. No more metagaming. I applaud them for saying "Hey, we listened to you but this is still our game too. We spent years on it and we'll be damned if you're going to ignore every aspect of the game itself between day 1 and the day you hit the level cap." Is it wrong for them to tell us that the level grind is not the game? Is it wrong of them to want us to experience the game they made, rather than the game that most MMO players play in every game? You know the one I mean. Grind like a madman to the level cap, then spend however long it takes to get the "primo" gear and loot and then hang out and tell everyone how awesome you are and complain about the game being broken, or whine how there's not enough endgame content when you skipped the meat of the game on the way. I sure as **** wouldn't design a game to pander to those kind of ingrates. This is Final Fantasy, not some WoW clone. Let it be Final Fantasy. There's lots of things to do besides grind. If you're bored, it's your own fault, and now you can't blame them. Point the finger where it belongs. At yourself.
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#55 Aug 27 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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uhhh the basic information is correct, but the assumption is incorrect.
Yes every game developer studies how much time they expect you to take to level, and adjusts the exp gained and mob level accordingly.
But there is no reason to believe
A)SE has a good idea of how much exp your can really earn in how much time
B)They will remove the grind and instead let you level up faster with this system

look at A) maybe some of you came late to FFXI but people were able to get way more exp in less time then they thought they would, this was during jp release, and they placed level caps in place. By the time it hit NA exp was around 4 or 5k exp in a good party. people learning the game, its now what, 10k on average? and you actually can earn more exp as you gain levels? this type of thing can never happen with this type of system. even if you earn exp effiecently, you just hit surplus faster. even if you put in more hours you will hit surplus and be forced to stop. and as the curve goes up, you will have no way to climb it faster.

looking at this game in the beta, many people, basically anyone who mostly leveled one job hit the surplus the reason? because SE underestimated how much exp per hour people could really get. So the truth is yeah, you were newbs, didnt know how to play and what to kill. how fast do you think you will hit the cap once you do? once people figure out how and where to level? it will be way faster than 8 hours in one week

looking at B) in the beta, in actual truth the system has not changed. sure you can get to level 10 fast, but getting to 20 is way slower, getting to 30 took most people who grinded hard, 2 weeks.
the exp curve gets exponetially higher as you go. the amount of exp that it takes for you to get from 1-24 is equal to the amount it takes to get from 25-31. with this established trend which is already ingame, by the time you are level 40 it would probably take you 1 week to get 1 level. no matter how effiecent an exp spot you found or how hard you level. eventually it will take you two weeks before you can get one level.
they didnt change the exp curve, they just told you the most your allowed to travel along it in one week.

in ffxi right now, i can get from level 10-40 in a couple days, in terms of hours, lets say 10 to 12 hours. even if i do that casually its about 1 week. for most people playing this game, it took them about a week to hit 24, how do you think that the exp curve is lower in this game? If this was thier goal the exp tnl would become more linear as you level, and flatten out, nothing in game has shown this, in fact all info for 2/3 of the level cap shows that it in fact a parabolic or exponential curve.

you also realize that any body who comes to this game later, can never catch up no matter how many hours or how well they play. If you get a buddy to join next month, he will always be a month behind you. PS3 users will always be 7 months behind.

take off the "i hope" glasses, people make mistakes, SE is making one now with this system.


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 6:34pm by yinstroo
#56 Aug 27 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Almost every supportive post about surplus either uses arbitrary xp formulas, or blames other players from keeping them from content. Blaming "hardcores" for rushing too fast, and taking over content is silly. They don't take out content once X guilds/LS have completed it. For people talking about enjoying the ride, they sure are upset about how much they haven't got to do yet.

Honestly, its the whole principle of surplus that bothers me. I don't care if its affecting me every week, or just on weekends, or only when I have a week off and am bored enough to spend it all on the game. I still think its a terrible idea to have XP shrink to zero (or 1%). Anything less than 50% XP is crazy. The dev's may as well just impose a level cap of 5, and increase it by 2 every week.

I get the point that I can still level other jobs in the meantime. But I have to, its not because my choice. Talking about that like its a perk, is like having a lazy eye and wearing a eye patch. You might be happy you get to look like a pirate, but you could have worn one anyways.

Mario doesn't stop you in world 2, and ask you to redo everything on Luigi.
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#57 Aug 27 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Default
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But again I reiterate this game is not WoW, it's not FFXI, it is not remotely close to either. In fact, out of every MMO I've ever played, it's nothing like any of them.

You like to play gladiator? Fantastic. Are you going to get away with only playing gladiator? No. If SE removes surplus, are you still going to get away with only playing gladiator? No.

It's not just surplus, it's how the game is designed. In order to be efficient with your class, you need to play other classes. You need to learn skills to mix and match. That is the game. If you are upset about this, well, either wait and try it out and see if you change your mind or don't play the game at all. This is how the game is, this is how the game will remain.

I mean, those who are outraged about it seem to forget all kinds of things about other games, and when confronted with such things will disregard it and say something like "It's not an MMO". Pretty sure there's not much of a difference. A limiter is a limiter, it has nothing to do with "EXP" or not, it is something that restricts or hinders you in some way.

Pokemon restricts you to only capturing certain Pokemon at certain times of the day.

The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask restricts all events to certain timelines and you are on a time limit throughout the entire game. In order to hinder the time limit, you must restart the game, saving only certain key features of your progress and erasing everything else.

Final Fantasy 8 and Legend of Dragoon feature little to no end game restricting you to have restart the entire game from scratch if you missed something important.

World of Warcraft features events and systems that if you miss out on you will have to wait at least one year to do again should you want the prize associated with it.

Final Fantasy XI has a weekly timer on quite a lot of things. One thing that annoyed people is the fact that unless you were a thief or were high enough level to farm keys, you could only obtain one Lamian Fang Key once a week until the timer reset to open the gates in Arrapago Reef.

Those are only a couple of examples. What does that have to do with this? "Oh but it's not forci---" yeah it is forcing you. It is deciding how you play. You are at the developers' unmerciful whim (oh how evil they are) about how you play the game. In every game. That exists.

Ever.

There are things people don't like about the games I just mentioned. There are people who support those things.

There are people who don't like surplus.

There are people who support surplus.

It is not SE's fault 70% of players don't understand surplus. A lot of people lately seem to be singing a different tune about it, not just here but on the beta forums and elsewhere. They are starting to go "hey this isn't so bad after all". If you decide not to jump on the boat, you can wait on the dock. It's your choice.

If you pay money for something, hopefully you did your research first. After you pay money for something you are not entitled to complain about it unless there is something legitimately wrong. You guys know what the system is. It was explained. If you don't like it, don't play it. You can say "oh I don't agree with it" but I highly doubt Square-Enix is going to cater to people who don't bother to understand it, especially not the whiners who feel they're entitled to everything.

It is a game.

It has rules.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 6:57pm by Rjain

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:04pm by Rjain
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#58 Aug 27 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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You like to play gladiator? Fantastic. Are you going to get away with only playing gladiator? No. If SE removes surplus, are you still going to get away with only playing gladiator? No.


See I agree with this 100%, but I'd like it to be my choice if/when I level other classes to support it. If my buddy is at some level 28 area, and I'm 26, It'd be nice if I could spend a few hours to catch up so we could play together the next day. A more real example, I'm starting with CE, my friends starting retail. For him to catch up, I'm gonna have to not play while he catches up, and then lets his thresholds reset to mine.
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#59 Aug 27 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Just to re-mention something, you don't wait a week for the timer to reset. The timer starts to reset when you're not leveling. The week thing is just a GUARANTEED reset.
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#60 Aug 27 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem is your assuming SE doesnt make mistakes, The record shows they do. look at the info on patches from jp game launch to na release. Some of those errors could have been avoided very easily, and the probelms could have been predicted.

I think this game is pretty good. It has a lot going for it. This system is an over arching system that can interfere with many of the systems good points. Its flaws will only magnify as the game goes on. At level 1-10 you dont notice it. 10-20 it starts getting you by 20-30 it totally controls how you play. by level 30 your only going to want to mount the huge exp curves once maybe twice. when you like your job, and it will take all week to level your probably going want to focus more time into it, but you cant.

Its shortsighted, its flawed, if they want this system to work it needs major tweaks, not to mention the type of community it will create. casuals are going to be expected to play with and on the level of hardcores, all the time. at least before they didnt need to deal with that till level cap. casuals will compete to buy items from people who will have way more money and resources than them, with no npc sources to get them.

how is the guy who can play 8 hours a week going to be able to pay the same thing someone who can play 30 hours a week?

how is he going to be able to play gladiator if it needs the 3 or 4 other jobs skills to work well as you think? (thankfully your actually wrong about needing to level multiple jobs to be good at one in this game)

Most of all, its pretty hard to explain this to anyone in a way that makes them think its a good idea to play the game. and thats a huuuuuuge flaw.

bad idea. hopefully the game is great enough that people will be willing to suffer, cause other wise it will fail.

oh yeah and the timer going down thing, as far as ive seen in beta is neglible. people didnt play for days and didnt see it drop a tier. i knew one dude who only played basically every two days for leves, once he had surplus didnt see it go below 10% till the reset

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:10pm by yinstroo
#61 Aug 27 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
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The problem is your assuming SE doesnt make mistakes


I think your problem is you're assuming that.

I have no clue how you got that from me, either you do not read my posts or you don't bother to try to understand what I am saying.

Of course Square-Enix makes mistakes. I do see flaws in FFXIV. At this point I hardly consider surplus one of them.

Quote:
(thankfully your actually wrong about needing to level multiple jobs to be good at one in this game)


I'm not sure you actually played or researched the game but ok. There's a lot of skills in each job which are critical for other jobs.

Quote:
oh yeah and the timer going down thing, as far as ive seen in beta is neglible. people didnt play for days and didnt see it drop a tier. i knew one dude who only played basically every two days for leves, once he had surplus didnt see it go below 10% till the reset


A guy on one of my servers had a very high amount of surplus and logged off the game, next day he went back to leveling just fine.
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#62 Aug 27 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rjain wrote:
This is how the game is, this is how the game will remain.


But that's a claim that you can't back up. And that's why saying "accept it, or don't play" is a false dilemma.
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#63Rjain, Posted: Aug 27 2010 at 5:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Not entirely. 3,000,000 players (not going to happen anyway) could sign a petition for surplus to be removed right now. Will they remove it because of that? Probably not. The system has not been tested, not enough people understand it, and the game has not even been released yet. A good deal of the game plays on this system. Just because people are complaining about it due to speculation or personal distaste does not mean it will be removed from the game.
#64 Aug 27 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately if you get it your way the people that don't have as much time to grind don't get to enjoy even a fifth of the content


Totally egocentric observation, but this means that there will still be people to grind with when I'm finally ready to level a different class :D They then get the benefit of my additional skills and increased abilities from my previous leveling excursions. This, in turn, lets XP flow faster, builds them up that much quicker, and gives them the opportunity to see how awesome experienced, well flowing parties can be :)



[edited to assassinate the evil rogue apostrophe!]

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:37pm by seneleron
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#65 Aug 27 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
seneleron wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunately if you get it your way the people that don't have as much time to grind don't get to enjoy even a fifth of the content


Totally egocentric observation, but this means that there will still be people to grind with when I'm finally ready to level a different class :D They then get the benefit of my additional skills and increased abilities from my previous leveling excursions. This, in turn, lets XP flow faster, builds them up that much quicker, and gives them the opportunity to see how awesome experienced, well flowing parties can be :)



Um, I am pretty sure you didn't mean it this way - but it isn't correct to assume someone who can only play a limited number of hours per week doesn't know how to party or play.

And that may be so, but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that just because you want to take 3 times as long to get every new ability doesn't mean other people will... and if the game is such a time sink that people with "only" 20 hours a week of gameplay can't access even 1/4 of the content over a series of years - you won't have many people to party with because they will quit out of boredom-rage.
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#66 Aug 27 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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but it isn't correct to assume someone who can only play a limited number of hours per week doesn't know how to party or play.


As SE has stated they're trying to attract "new and casual gamers", I think it's a rather fair assessment. Obviously there are a lot of casual gamers here on the boards that know full well what those "uber XP parties" are like. . . I didn't mean to implicate those people. I Probably could have phrased it better.

Quote:
but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that just because you want to take 3 times as long to get every new ability doesn't mean other people will


With all due respect, the way the fatigue system currently works means the above is *EXACTLY* what is going to happen to me. It's going to take me 3 times as long as it could have because I'm going to be butting my head against the *&# fatigue wall every time I turn around unless they relax the penalties way more than I believe they will [relax the penaly TOO much, and it defeats their purpose].







Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:52pm by seneleron
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#67 Aug 27 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

I'm not sure you actually played or researched the game but ok. There's a lot of skills in each job which are critical for other jobs.

Quote:
oh yeah and the timer going down thing, as far as ive seen in beta is neglible. people didnt play for days and didnt see it drop a tier. i knew one dude who only played basically every two days for leves, once he had surplus didnt see it go below 10% till the reset


A guy on one of my servers had a very high amount of surplus and logged off the game, next day he went back to leveling just fine.


i have played the game since alpha 1, i have leveled multiple jobs, i have played with people. i have researched other peoples data and my own. I know a fair amount about what is in the game and how things work

far as needing other jobs. its a benefit horizontally or for specializing your playstyle but due to the systems in place it is of varying use.
my data on this is an aside so i put in spoiler for you too look at if you wish.

because of the action point system no matter how many skills you have, you have a finite number you can allot, based on your level. you pick and choose skills, the game gives you about 3 points every 2 levels, and usually a 3 point skill every two levels, so when you use cross class skills, you usually ignore some of your actual class skills.
2 subjob skills are less effective, to varying degrees, most have about a 1.5x recast timer when used by another job, and reduced potency
3. every skill costs stamina, there is only so many things you can do in a fight, and if you do one thing, your sacrificing something else. you wont use 20 skills in a fight
4. most jobs only have one or two skills that are really usefull to another job, that they allow other jobs to use, and they are usually lower level.

this adds together to make it so, your basically not that much more powerful, you do however have more tools at your disposal for adapting to different situations. IE a gladiator can equip a lot of spells so he can cure himself. but in a balanced party, he probably wont need too, the cures are way more effective and mp effecient from another class. He also gets his own recovery skills, which are arguably better for what he is doing. for example, aegis boon heals and blocks at the same time, whereas cure requires that he stop all action and cast. for much less than half what a conjurer can do, on multiple targets.


the guy who logged off and came back after a high surplus, most likely logged off when the surplus reset, or when they reset the servers. It definately did not go down a tier in 1 day for me. or for most people i know. I have theory that they reset the surplus when they had to take down the servers a couple times, but there is a lot of different experiences with surplus, and they havent explained everything, so who knows.

im not a newb with my info, you can love it if you want but surplus interferes with many aspects of the game.
story is level based, exp is curved, exp to surplus is fixed this means as you get closer to cap it takes longer to exp, and while you have more to grind, you have less actual story the longer the game is out. So when it takes 2 or 3 weeks to get from level 30-40, you basically only can get 1 story quest for that period.
changing jobs, however stats are dont reset easily, this implies you should stick to certain things and only dabble in others, unless you want to reset your skills over a 4 hour period. but surplus tells you to level everything. ehhh
guild leves are also level tiered, so while in the beginning of the game you got to see 3 tiers of new leves in a week, after that you will progressively see less content, but be required to wait more time to see these new leves.

surplus discourages you from leveling a main job, and using it for anything else, once your cap is hit you get less baby exp when farming, less exp helping people do quests/leves. less exp doing your own quests, less exp while doing missions. because as they said your timer will slowly go down as you do nothing that gains exp. So when your friend needs help, sorry man my timer is going down, good luck, or i can help you on my level 5 miner?
this system doesnt work in line with everything else, its thrown on top of everything and it really doesnt mesh that well.


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 8:09pm by yinstroo
#68 Aug 27 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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With all due respect, the way the fatigue system currently works means the above is *EXACTLY* what is going to happen to me. It's going to take me 3 times as long as it could have because I'm going to be butting my head against the *&# fatigue wall every time I turn around unless they relax the penalties way more than I believe they will [relax the penaly TOO much, and it defeats their purpose].



Agreed, this is one of my main concern.
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#69 Aug 27 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
seneleron wrote:
Quote:
but it isn't correct to assume someone who can only play a limited number of hours per week doesn't know how to party or play.


As SE has stated they're trying to attract "new and casual gamers", I think it's a rather fair assessment. Obviously there are a lot of casual gamers here on the boards that know full well what those "uber XP parties" are like. . . I didn't mean to implicate those people. I Probably could have phrased it better.

Quote:
but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that just because you want to take 3 times as long to get every new ability doesn't mean other people will


With all due respect, the way the fatigue system currently works means the above is *EXACTLY* what is going to happen to me. It's going to take me 3 times as long as it could have because I'm going to be butting my head against the *&# fatigue wall every time I turn around unless they relax the penalties way more than I believe they will [relax the penaly TOO much, and it defeats their purpose].

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:52pm by seneleron


Yeah I didn't figure you were trying to slag people just for not having as much time to play.

You ARE right. If you only count getting abilities in one job, or if you refuse to level anything but your main job for sure, it WILL take you longer to level than it would if they took off the exp surplus system AND left TNLs the same.

I am pretty certain though that in real hours spent getting those levels (like actual gameplay on each job) you will have to spend less time to get those levels then in XI. It is too bad if you don't want to do anything but level 1 singular job but heck even in XI it wasn't viable to only level 1 job. Farming had to be done, for example. And subjobs had to be leveled.

Heck I can't tell you how much grief I got for REFUSING to level NIN because I didn't enjoy it... and my Blu never got party invites.


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 5:02pm by Olorinus
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#70 Aug 27 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rjain wrote:
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But that's a claim that you can't back up. And that's why saying "accept it, or don't play" is a false dilemma.


Not entirely. 3,000,000 players (not going to happen anyway) could sign a petition for surplus to be removed right now. Will they remove it because of that? Probably not. The system has not been tested, not enough people understand it, and the game has not even been released yet. A good deal of the game plays on this system. Just because people are complaining about it due to speculation or personal distaste does not mean it will be removed from the game.

It is a general practice that if you don't like something why bother subjecting yourself to it? I'm not trying to be an @#%^ when I say what I say, but it's just common sense. If something really bothers you so much that you are going to constantly debate it (not you personally, I am speaking in general) or complain about it, why bother? Just move on, find something else you enjoy.

Everyone has their likes and dislikes. They will clash, as inevitably seen here. The developer is the judge. They feel they made a good choice, they will see how it goes. And, given the amount of people I've seen lately who are starting to cool down on the surplus issue, I don't think they made a bad choice (although they could have explained it better to begin with).


I'm not saying that a change is likely, or that it will even happen. But you can't base an argument on a false claim that it won't happen. And yes, I think the only way to achieve that small chance of things changing is to complain about it.

To the rest: If something is too bothersome, and you are unable to change it, then yes, you'll stop doing that thing. But we don't know that it can't be changed, and we don't know if complaining about the system is ineffectual yet. It may very well be, but I'd never criticize others for wanting to at least try. Many people have a lot invested in this game already, mentally and physically. They're bound to be upset if they see things beginning to go in a direction that they don't like. And they're doubly bound to be upset when such a direction is only very suddenly revealed to them, as they have been left very much in the dark. It's difficult to just give up on a game that you've been so eagerly anticipated because things start to disappoint you. I think you should try to empathize a little bit more.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 8:07pm by Eske
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#71 Aug 27 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Point blank, there are two major camps on this issue. The biggest is the one that believes it to be a bad idea that needs to be changed drastically or removed altogether. A smaller camp is the group of people who will not be affected and therefore think that a system that punishes people is fine, just so long as it doesn't punish them.

I have yet to see someone come out and say "I plan to play for 50 hours a week, I'll probably get my XP nerfed to ****, and I think this system is awesome". The only people who are in favor of this system are the ones who do not think they will be affected by it. That, right there, should be a HUGE clue to how bad the system is.


I'm not in either of the camps you mentioned, at least not strictly. I plan on playing this game something like 28~36 hours per week. Potentially even more than that in some cases. I was a hardcore player in FFXI as well. I would grind up one job I liked completely, and then grind up another job I liked completely. When I quit a year ago, I had 7 jobs leveled to 75 in that manner (though I didn't start playing at launch). I leveled (and enjoyed leveling) in such a manner that the current surplus system would be a hindrance to. However, the surplus isn't going to affect me personally. Not because I am a casual player; time-wise, I'm the opposite of the type of player they created this system for. I just plan on adapting to the system, and leveling the jobs I have interest in simultaneously to avoid surplus (without playing for any less time than I did in FFXI). I'm willing to do that, and I expect I will enjoy it, even though it was not my preferred method during the five or so years that I played FFXI.

However, I DO care about the effect the system might have on other people's experiences, and I hope that the system is adjusted in such a way that those people's fears/concerns are alleviated. If the system as it stands now is truly going to alienate all these forum-goers in the way they are expecting it to, then I hope it gets changed to something more palatable to them.

I won't be affected (by choice, not by chance) and I DO care. I'm just surprised there aren't more (vocal) people in my "Camp 3," who are just willing to go with the flow. (This may include the people who are willing to "give it a shot," but I'm moreso referring to people who know for a fact that they are willing to adapt to the system even if it doesn't suit previous playstyle preferences.) Is there anyone else?



Count me in for Camp 3. I don't think the surplus will effect me during the week but it might hit me during the weekends or when i actually have off work for the holidays.
If the surplus does start effecting my Archer then I'll change jobs.
If for some freak of a reason I can't gain any exp what so ever on any job then I guess I'll go around help my friends on the game. Just because I'm playing the game doesn't mean I have to be getting exp all the time. I believe others used to do that on ff11, ya know, stuff that didn't involve getting exp. Granted there are people who will only want to get exp every second they are on and they have a right to complain about the surplus but it's how teh game is set up. You can either adjust to it or not play.
There is no real way to settle this argument because no matter what SE does there WILL be people that will ***** about how the game is set up.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 8:11pm by RSquires

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 8:12pm by RSquires
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#72 Aug 27 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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It seems to me that the only thing you cannot do within this system is level far beyond everyone else. If that is your goal you are screwed. If you have any other goal you should be fine. You can play as much as you want. If you only want to play one class you can do that. You will not increase level or rank but if you love playing just one class you can play it as much as you want. You just can't level a single class far beyond the majority of players. Someone may still be first to level cap but everyone else will be there very soon after.
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#73 Aug 27 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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because of the action point system no matter how many skills you have, you have a finite number you can allot, based on your level. you pick and choose skills, the game gives you about 3 points every 2 levels, and usually a 3 point skill every two levels, so when you use cross class skills, you usually ignore some of your actual class skills.


There are a lot of skills which can benefit you. It's somewhat similar to the subjob system in FFXI. I am not personally familiar with the gladiator class although I use it in most of my examples, but from what other beta testers have been saying there are skills which could be considered vital in pugilist, marauder, and conjurer which could significantly help a gladiator perform better at tanking.

You could essentially create a paladin with a gladiator.

Basically the game gives me the impression that you are creating your own job classes. The actual classes supplied to you hardly matter, they're basically just words. Square-Enix took all logical basis away from all classes and it is nothing like FFXI.
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#74 Aug 27 2010 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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its more oppressive than you think. If the system wasnt there EVERYONE would level faster, not just hardcores. you wont see it if you level 3 different classes in 2 days, but you ll see it in a week. and once you decide you like a class later, you ll see it a lot more often.

Its possible they could tweak it so no one sees it very often, but if they do that, why waste time developing the system at all. their idea is basically you should only be able to progress without penalty for 8 hours a week, but even in that, thier assumption of how much exp you can get is low, so its going to turn out to be really 5 or so hours a week. And going by beta, if they do find their number is off, instead of tweaking the surplus threshold, they will nerf exp gains (this is what they did in the beta when people started exping faster than they thought, its not me assuming) they have no desire to protect you from grinding

you also tend to live in fear of surplus, and that totally changes your playing style.

yes you can make a lot of different types of playstyles with more skills, but it doesnt make you that much better, ie, is a warrior better than a darknight? not really

you can take a marauder and use some thaum skills to make it play like a dark, but thats just changing you r role, and playing style , not making you betterr

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 8:23pm by yinstroo
#75 Aug 27 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
Mario doesn't stop you in world 2, and ask you to redo everything on Luigi.


LMAO, ok, for that one comment I'll vote for getting rid of the surplus. LOL
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#76 Aug 27 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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You ARE right. If you only count getting abilities in one job, or if you refuse to level anything but your main job for sure, it WILL take you longer to level than it would if they took off the exp surplus system AND left TNLs the same.

I am pretty certain though that in real hours spent getting those levels (like actual gameplay on each job) you will have to spend less time to get those levels then in XI. It is too bad if you don't want to do anything but level 1 singular job but heck even in XI it wasn't viable to only level 1 job. Farming had to be done, for example. And subjobs had to be leveled.

Heck I can't tell you how much grief I got for REFUSING to level NIN because I didn't enjoy it... and my Blu never got party invites.


In a sense, this argues my case :) I enjoy leveling mage jobs, and in FFXIV there are 2. Granted I don't know anything more about the game than I've seen in beta, but I fail to see how leveling gladiator is going to help improve or round out my conjaturge [Thaunjurer?] 10 hours a week for one class really isn't that much [assuming that beyond about 10 hours fatigue makes continuing virtually pointless] and I forsee myself with days where I'm stuck either crafting [not really my thing in FF games] or leveling other jobs that I don't enjoy [like your ninja] because I have no incentive to level my caster classes because the "incentive" has been nerfed or removed.

Mind you, a lot of how this plays out is going to be determined by SE's adjustments, and within 6 months of launch I'm sure it won't even remotely resemble what it does today. . . but I can still be not okay with it.

A friend of mine had a really good point though. Even if the current fan base hates it, if SE can attract new players, they still win. Most of the fans are going to stick around and wait it out, SE always has the option to change it if it ends up hurting sales. Personally, I think the hardware requirements and initial cost to get into the game are going to deter most casual gamers, but I digress ;)

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#77 Aug 27 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Well either way we all need to wait and see what happens since they're still making tweaks to things and figuring stuff out. Open beta should give everyone a more clear example, but even that will differ a bit from release.

I am not trying to make everyone become a fan of surplus, my original intention is to make people rethink it and to, in the very least, feel a bit better about it. Although that won't happen for everyone, at least some people will feel a bit more positive with another perspective.

I don't want to throw Square-Enix on the podium and make them look like holy examples of everything, because they're far from that, but consider how many people are working on this game. The director and producer are not the ones who make every decision in the game. Many of them have played video games, and are heavily involved in both hardcore and casual gaming themselves. Some people tend to think that just because they're making a game they have no clue what players like. That is true in some cases, mostly in the 80s and 90s, but they did their research. They are trying something new, and if it bombs then I'm sure they will come up with something better.

They have been working on the game for over five years. Since then the developers have experimented with tons of games and researched a lot of the player base. Not just Japanese either.
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#78 Aug 27 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Im not trying to destroy SE, and dont get me wrong this game has a lot of hard work and dedication put into it. a lot of good ideas, and some interesting new things going on. but this system is bad, its has the potential to ruin a good game, and waste all the other things that they put their heart and soul in. just like making ff13 super linear ruined the game inspite of many other good factors, for most people.
#79 Aug 27 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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seneleron wrote:
my conjaturge [Thaunjurer?]


Thaunjurer. Definitely.
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#80 Aug 27 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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yinstroo wrote:
you also realize that any body who comes to this game later, can never catch up no matter how many hours or how well they play. If you get a buddy to join next month, he will always be a month behind you. PS3 users will always be 7 months behind.


I was 100% fine with surplus, and thought all the negativity or positivity was simply a matter of perception until I read this. This is a point that will bother me about an otherwise ok system.

In FFXIV we are all rewarded with being able to level as fast as humanly possible in the game's framework, (which I still think is mostly marvelous, except for the following point:) Therefore we can only adjust our pace down in order to let others catch up.

I cannot help my new friends level "fast" so they can "catch up." And they cannot put in the extra effort to "hurry up" and join me. Now it can be argued that with a higher xp curve setting the pace instead of this system the same would still be true, (we are still only allowed to progress so fast) but because it is so "easy" to hit "max" level for a week, we can now assume I've always leveled at max pace. (I am awarded hardcore level pacing "for free")

Whereas in another MMO, assuming I'm not a hardcore player(wasn't leveling at 100% speed all the time before she joined) we could then use the extra benefit of an experienced player and the best starting gear money can buy to level her at 100% thus allowing her to reach my level in a shorter amount of time than it took me and "catch up."

If I am driving 40mph/kph and I go ten miles before she leaves the start, she can still arrive with me together at the finish line by driving 60mph/kph until she catches up... Unless both our cars both have a max speed of 40mph. Then I must stop, and pull over.
#81 Aug 27 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I cannot help my new friends level "fast" so they can "catch up." And they cannot put in the extra effort to "hurry up" and join me.


holy *$&% Tweezle, I didn't even *THINK* about that O.O

ABSOLUTE rate up ^^
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#82 Aug 27 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Tweezle120 wrote:
yinstroo wrote:
you also realize that any body who comes to this game later, can never catch up no matter how many hours or how well they play. If you get a buddy to join next month, he will always be a month behind you. PS3 users will always be 7 months behind.


I was 100% fine with surplus, and thought all the negativity or positivity was simply a matter of perception until I read this. This is a point that will bother me about an otherwise ok system.

In FFXIV we are all rewarded with being able to level as fast as humanly possible in the game's framework, (which I still think is mostly marvelous, except for the following point:) Therefore we can only adjust our pace down in order to let others catch up.

I cannot help my new friends level "fast" so they can "catch up." And they cannot put in the extra effort to "hurry up" and join me. Now it can be argued that with a higher xp curve setting the pace instead of this system the same would still be true, (we are still only allowed to progress so fast) but because it is so "easy" to hit "max" level for a week, we can now assume I've always leveled at max pace. (I am awarded hardcore level pacing "for free")

Whereas in another MMO, assuming I'm not a hardcore player(wasn't leveling at 100% speed all the time before she joined) we could then use the extra benefit of an experienced player and the best starting gear money can buy to level her at 100% thus allowing her to reach my level in a shorter amount of time than it took me and "catch up."

If I am driving 40mph/kph and I go ten miles before she leaves the start, she can still arrive with me together at the finish line by driving 60mph/kph until she catches up... Unless both our cars both have a max speed of 40mph. Then I must stop, and pull over.


Like you said, that assumes you've always been leveling at max pace. Exping to the point of reaching the 0exp wall every week. But if it turns out your regular playrate is more like driving 40mph while the exp/week that leads to hitting that 0exp wall is more like 60mph or more, then with help & going all out I guess they could catch up. They mentioned some issues that led to people hitting that wall sooner than expected in the recent phase so it'll be interesting to see what they change in OB to balance it out. No doubt anyone in the beta will be thoroughly testing it...
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#83 Aug 27 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Like you said, that assumes you've always been leveling at max pace. Exping to the point of reaching the 0exp wall every week. But if it turns out your regular playrate is more like driving 40mph while the exp/week that leads to hitting that 0exp wall is more like 60mph or more, then with help & going all out I guess they could catch up. They mentioned some issues that led to people hitting that wall sooner than expected in the recent phase so it'll be interesting to see what they change in OB to balance it out. No doubt anyone in the beta will be thoroughly testing it...


Yeah, how easy it is to go at "max" speed will matter most I guess, we'll just have to wait for the numbers...
#84 Aug 27 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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max pace is very easy to hit, for most people playing a game 1.5 hours a day or 4 or 5 on the weekends is common.
8 hours is their goal per week, i will tell you from experience that once you get past 10% you will be deterred, once its up to 50% you will probably be like im done and if you push to to 60% you will be crying inside. 60% probably only requires 12ish hours a week.
the next problem is its not hours, its expected exp hours, as people get better at the game, and understand it, they will hit these "hours" faster.

in beta 2 a friend lent another friend of mine thier account so they could try the game out. we ran him through the first leves, and told him a pretty good spot to level at for his class (lancer does extra dmg through piercing) he hit level 14 in about 4/5 hours. this is before they had the leve exp buff, and also he was fighting mobs that werent low level. he then asked me what surplus was. I told him no one knows, but that he should probably level a sub job for some skills to use on lancer.

point is, he hit the imaginary 8 hour exp limit in about 4 hours, because he knew what he was doing. this was outside of the errors they think caused people to hit surplus fast.

so its currently not to hard to see the beginning of surplus, unless you play in an extremely horizontal play style, or are not particularly trying to get exp, you will see surplus by the end of the week. and that means basically you are traveling pretty close to the speed limit.

your friend who comes a month later, you basically just have to wait for them to catch up, they may be able to cut a week off that month if you only went to like 10% surplus each week, and they are willing to go to 100%
#85 Aug 27 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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yinstroo wrote:
you also realize that any body who comes to this game later, can never catch up no matter how many hours or how well they play. If you get a buddy to join next month, he will always be a month behind you. PS3 users will always be 7 months behind.

I like that the game does not support power-leveling. If someone starts 2 months after me and I want to play with them I will need to find a way to do that within the framework of the game.
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#86 Aug 27 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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Spending time "refreshing" your surplus early by playing other classes will be important I think... AT least for us DoH we can just got DoL for a bit. the players who prefer pure DoW will have to pick two similar classes to work with I guess.
#87 Aug 27 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like that the game does not support power-leveling. If someone starts 2 months after me and I want to play with them I will need to find a way to do that within the framework of the game.


If by power leveling you mean leveling fast and effiecently yeah it doesnt support that, if you mean someone standing oustide and curing them, yeah thats still in game.
#88 Aug 27 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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yinstroo wrote:
max pace is very easy to hit, for most people playing a game 1.5 hours a day or 4 or 5 on the weekends is common.
8 hours is their goal per week, i will tell you from experience that once you get past 10% you will be deterred, once its up to 50% you will probably be like im done and if you push to to 60% you will be crying inside. 60% probably only requires 12ish hours a week.
the next problem is its not hours, its expected exp hours, as people get better at the game, and understand it, they will hit these "hours" faster.

in beta 2 a friend lent another friend of mine thier account so they could try the game out. we ran him through the first leves, and told him a pretty good spot to level at for his class (lancer does extra dmg through piercing) he hit level 14 in about 4/5 hours. this is before they had the leve exp buff, and also he was fighting mobs that werent low level. he then asked me what surplus was. I told him no one knows, but that he should probably level a sub job for some skills to use on lancer.

point is, he hit the imaginary 8 hour exp limit in about 4 hours, because he knew what he was doing. this was outside of the errors they think caused people to hit surplus fast.

so its currently not to hard to see the beginning of surplus, unless you play in an extremely horizontal play style, or are not particularly trying to get exp, you will see surplus by the end of the week. and that means basically you are traveling pretty close to the speed limit.

your friend who comes a month later, you basically just have to wait for them to catch up, they may be able to cut a week off that month if you only went to like 10% surplus each week, and they are willing to go to 100%


I see...
My numbers from the beta avoided surplus because I have what you called an extremely horizontal playstyle. With some key abilities spread throughout the different classes it's really beneficial to do so. Everyone should want to level pug to 6 for 2nd wind at least, that's 1 awesome ability. In open beta I'm probably going to go outside of how I would normally play just to test it further and see how restrictive that cutoff can be.

EDIT
As for the power leveling, I keep saying it on a lot of threads, maybe already in this one even, but I'm not sure about other people, but I'm actually willing to be slightly inconvenienced if it means ******** RMT over. Keyword there being "slightly", if it screws us over at the same time then that sucks...

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 11:48pm by TwistedOwl
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#89 Aug 27 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Excellent
I feel they're missing the point of the complaints. Yes, xp is a way to control the rate that people advance. What people want though, is the choice to put in effort and get some sort of progress. What they are doing is removing that choice, and that's what people don't like. Its ok to make it a lot of effort per progress, people just feel that the progress is more valuable, but taking away the ability to put in effort and get something out of it is undermining the fundamental thing that makes people play MMOs.
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#90 Aug 27 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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The people who like the surplus xp system are most likely the people who wouldn't be affected by it anyway.
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#91 Aug 27 2010 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I feel they're missing the point of the complaints. Yes, xp is a way to control the rate that people advance. What people want though, is the choice to put in effort and get some sort of progress. What they are doing is removing that choice, and that's what people don't like. Its ok to make it a lot of effort per progress, people just feel that the progress is more valuable, but taking away the ability to put in effort and get something out of it is undermining the fundamental thing that makes people play MMOs.


What this guy said, 100%.
#92 Aug 27 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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bout the RMT issue, i dont really see how this helps stop RMT, rmt is more about money than exp, and back when i played games they would usually choose to do the most easy and repetive tasks. RMT were never as high level as most of my friends were in xi(we played at launch) because they were more concerned with killing too weak mobs for guaranteed money.
this still exists in this game, crystals/shards are more valuable the more people have to craft, and this system encourages crafting.
Also having multiple crafts at the weekly exp cap.... thats where the real money is, combined with the farming they will be doing, they will be pretty unstoppable.
In the beta people had a decent amount of cash from doing guild leves, but since there was no weapons, and most people didnt have high level crafts, when some one did figure out how to make a weapon/or made one they sold it for a lot of cash. 22k for a level 8 wand 80k for a level 22. most people would happily give all the money they made in leves in two weaks for that weapon, and honestly its logical. your skill ups in battle is partially based on dmg and acc
The Rmt has an even greater advantage horizontal leveling than otherwise. everybody needs weapons, only few can make them, and have the materials to do so without running out. Since everybody wants the same stuff at the same time
#93 Aug 27 2010 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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yinstroo wrote:
bout the RMT issue, i dont really see how this helps stop RMT, rmt is more about money than exp, and back when i played games they would usually choose to do the most easy and repetive tasks. RMT were never as high level as most of my friends were in xi(we played at launch) because they were more concerned with killing too weak mobs for guaranteed money.
this still exists in this game, crystals/shards are more valuable the more people have to craft, and this system encourages crafting.
Also having multiple crafts at the weekly exp cap.... thats where the real money is, combined with the farming they will be doing, they will be pretty unstoppable.
In the beta people had a decent amount of cash from doing guild leves, but since there was no weapons, and most people didnt have high level crafts, when some one did figure out how to make a weapon/or made one they sold it for a lot of cash. 22k for a level 8 wand 80k for a level 22. most people would happily give all the money they made in leves in two weaks for that weapon, and honestly its logical. your skill ups in battle is partially based on dmg and acc
The Rmt has an even greater advantage horizontal leveling than otherwise. everybody needs weapons, only few can make them, and have the materials to do so without running out. Since everybody wants the same stuff at the same time


It hurts part of their business, which is people paying them to powerlevel their characters. I think that's totally screwed if this system is in place. Easily attainable gil in theory could help prevent the need for people to buy gil. The new crafting & gathering systems aren't something they can easily bot like in XI. A lot of these new systems seem to be an attempt to ***** them over in some form...they'll try to find ways around it though.
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#94 Aug 27 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
they'll try to find ways around it though.
They'll come up with something else and be just fine, and the genuine player base will be the only ones that suffer.
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#95 Aug 27 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
they'll try to find ways around it though.
They'll come up with something else and be just fine, and the genuine player base will be the only ones that suffer.


I sure hope not, trying to stay positive on the whole matter. It'd be dishonest of me to say I didn't see the possibility of that happening though.
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#96 Aug 27 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
bsphil wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
they'll try to find ways around it though.
They'll come up with something else and be just fine, and the genuine player base will be the only ones that suffer.
I sure hope not, trying to stay positive on the whole matter. It'd be dishonest of me to say I didn't see the possibility of that happening though.
They did it over and over in FFXI.
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#97 Aug 27 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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RMT will always be an issue. If money is easy to make, things will get inflated and people will buy gil. If it takes longer per level, people will still be willing to pay to get content done for them while they work. People with more money than time, who want to trade will always be able to do something about it. As long as the game rewards 40 hours a week, more than 10 hours, people will be willing to pay for other's time.

I would really, really like to hope that this system had nothing to do with RMT, because it would fail at that just as bad as reducing the 'casual'/'hardcore' gap.
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#98 Aug 27 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not sure about the "those who support it are not affected by it" argument.

We're not affected by it because we don't let it affect us.

As I stated earlier, me and my friends used to play MMOs 10-14 hours daily. A lot of my friends still do. Most of that was leveling. I don't personally have that much time anymore but when necessary I can still spend a lot of time leveling.

If it doesn't affect me, someone who is used to spending 10-14 hours daily grinding, how does it affect any other hardcore players? I mean obviously there are people who differ from playstyle to playstyle than me but considering how obsessed I was with playing particular classes for so long, and I'm not complaining about it... well, something's up.

Again as I mentioned earlier, a lot of games have restrictions. Be it subtle restrictions, be it very obvious restrictions. Whether it's EXP, or time playing, or some mechanic which makes things more challenging, whatever. It in some way forces you to do something.

I mean, as much as I respect everyone's opinions this is starting to get silly. Try as people will, those who argue against surplus are most likely going to keep hating it and those who argue defending it are probably going to keep supporting it. It is futile to argue. It is also not going to change anything about the system regardless.

Everyone's best bet is to wait for the game. If you play the game and love it, great. If you play the game and hate it, that's fine. If you cancel your pre-order before then, power to you.

Open beta starts in a few days, people will get a better taste of the game then. Pretty much everything speculated until then is moot.
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#99 Aug 27 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rjain wrote:
It is futile to argue. It is also not going to change anything about the system regardless.
This in itself is a huge problem with SE.
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#100 Aug 28 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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Wow ok, some people just aren't getting it. The reason this system sucks is NOT because of the EXP itself, it is because they are FORCING you to do something else.

You cannot encourage versatility through forcing people into doing other things. You do it by giving them incentives. One way would be to allow people to level what they want unhindered while saying for instance, if you switch to another class you will get double the EXP for said class for an allotted time.

You ENCOURAGE you don't PUNISH.
#101 Aug 28 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rjain wrote:
I'm not sure about the "those who support it are not affected by it" argument.

We're not affected by it because we don't let it affect us.

This can translate to, "I have my head up my ***."

I personally don't care about grinding, and I more particularly don't care about being the best. I wanna play FFXIV for the storyline, just like with any other Final Fantasy. So I could care less about surplus.

Objectively speaking however, surplus is just a bad concept for it's system. I've seen many arguments for and against it but the cons far outweigh the pros. Disregarding all of that however I still want to remind everyone that we're paying to play this game every month. People should play how they want without arbitrary limitations just because of this fact. I really can't see how anyone can support surplus at it's current state unless SE gives way more content to the masses (which seems plausible) while at the same time think about the future assessments.
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