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#102 Aug 28 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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CarthRDM wrote:
I really can't see how anyone can support surplus at it's current state unless SE gives way more content to the masses (which seems plausible) while at the same time think about the future assessments.
If it's good content, people will naturally stop leveling to go do it. On the flip side, if it's good content with a level requirement, people will want to grind out exp as fast as they can so that they can start the content...
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#103 Aug 28 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Default
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Every indication thus far is that they, like every other developer, decided how fast they wanted players to progress, and then tweaked the xp formula so that we could reach cap in FEWER TOTAL HOURS than in a normal system as long as we didn't focus solely on a single goal of leveling a certain class to max level ASAP.

All games involve restrictions and tradeoffs by their very nature. No one is being forced to stop progressing a single class for as long as they want-- that's exactly what surplus points are there for. Of course as an individual you subconsciously want it all now-- you don't want to delay gratification. But in the psychology of games, the faster you get what you want, the less game there is to play. The reason people are opposed to the idea is it makes the limitations more salient, even though limitations are in every game. It doesn't look like a rule designed to facilitate enjoyment, even though it is.

And far from being a fanboy here, not that anyone was accusing me of it, I've been very critical of SE in many ways. This is actually a very reasonable idea from an objective vantage.

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#104 Aug 28 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, xp is a way to control the rate that people advance. What people want though, is the choice to put in effort and get some sort of progress. What they are doing is removing that choice, and that's what people don't like.


If not for the surplus system those who don't want to spend their time grinding a single class but want their characters to progress have no choice.

If there were a bunch of people here that wanted to gank the nubs in PvP they would be told to go play a different game because that isn't what this game is about. Similarly, this game isn't about speed-grinding or power-leveling. This game gives people that want to do crafting and gathering and progressing several classes the choice to do that without falling far behind those who don't craft and only play a single class.
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#105 Aug 28 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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No one is being forced to stop progressing a single class for as long as they want-- that's exactly what surplus points are there for.


Excuse me, but you lost me there. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, your exp slows down because of the surplus. So you can't progress with a class for as long as you want when you hit the big surplus brick wall and start getting 0 exp.
#106 Aug 28 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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All games involve restrictions and tradeoffs by their very nature. No one is being forced to stop progressing a single class for as long as they want-- that's exactly what surplus points are there for. Of course as an individual you subconsciously want it all now-- you don't want to delay gratification. But in the psychology of games, the faster you get what you want, the less game there is to play. The reason people are opposed to the idea is it makes the limitations more salient, even though limitations are in every game. It doesn't look like a rule designed to facilitate enjoyment, even though it is.


I have to disagree with you that when you get what you want, there is less game to play. There is always the same amount of game to experience for everyone. level 1-MAX on each class, every quest/mission/storyline is there. Every other MMO I've seen has let people choose in what order they want to experience the content. What I think people are upset about, is that this reveal comes out a month before CE release, and with it being a negative aspect to alot of people, it feels like this was being kept from us. If they were so proud of their surplus system, they should have previewed it right up on the main page with Guildleves and Aetheroyte (however you spell that crystal).

I get that people are looking to the silver lining, of being encouraged (many would call it forced) to see other parts of the game sooner, But people could have done that by choice without the system. The best defense of the system I've seen is that "I wont play that much anyways, so it won't affect me", which I see as a pretty poor addition to the "pro" column. The worst defense I've seen of it is the selfish "this will stop 'hardcores' from seeing/doing content before me".

Surplus isn't going anywhere, and I won't let it ruin the game for me, and I hope others feel the same way, but at no point will I ever feel that it isn't a horrible business move for SE, and an all around stupid concept.
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#107 Aug 28 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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For someone who WILL hit surplus, a LOT, I still am coming over to the dark side. I like the system. Maybe not generically, but I finally get where they're going.

I'm hardcore, I guess. I'd come home from work, log in, and fish for four hours on the ferry or for my LuShang's when I got home from work just unwinding from the day. No automators, no bots, just me, my TV, some tunes. When I'd party if the party wasn't expecting to do 4 hrs + of xp'ing it wasn't worth me running to x, finding a healer for y, dealing with mommy sending DD#2 to bed... etc.

So, yeah, I'm in the hardcore category.

I actually LIKE the new system. As has been mentioned, repeatedly, you're going to be on some form of delay no matter what you do. Higher xp curves, lower xp rewards, or some kind of time delay. That's just the game. I'm not STOPPED from playing my fisherman if he stops getting xp, it just doesn't advance. So, I can still do some faction quests for points in areas that wouldn't xp me anyway, or go level my pugilist so I can survive the next area.

It had gotten to the point in XI where I felt if I didn't log on for a night I'd get left behind from a few groups I had enjoyed playing with. Now it won't happen. God forbid if I just wanted to go explore Xarcabard or something random. I won't have to grind ALL week to get the equivalent level ups I did in XI. Just a day, maybe two.

I can keep playing that class with no bonus if I felt like it, and if this were XI, I'd *HAVE* to, to have reached the level I already am. But now, it's a choice. I dinged level 15 4 days early so maybe I'll take said class and go explore that new area that's good for 15's. Go looking for that better camp spot, or new fishing hole, or whatever. ****, at least now we'll have time to work with the retainer system of doom.

The more I think about the alternative to surplus being much steeper xp increments, which I could do, the more I'm liking it. Mostly because now i have the choice to waste 7 days on my pugilist, only 2 of which got me to level x, instead of needing all 7 to get to level x.

They're not taking away my play style, they just shortened my curve and then stopped giving me increases for a while. I can live with that.

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#108 Aug 28 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I was wondering if we know how the "penalty" thresholds are figured. SE said that there are 8 thresholds in which you gain normal experience and 7 thresholds in which you gain reduced experience. Do we know at this point how the progression through the 7 penalty thresholds is paced?

To try to keep this from getting confusing, I will call the total experience (exp + surplus) earned experience and the amount applied to your class (the amount you receive after the penalty) gained experience. My question: is your progression through surplus thresholds calculated by earned experience or by gained experience?

Assuming that each threshold is 2k exp (not because I think it will be, but because it's easy to work with), and assuming that the progression is linear and each threshold assesses an additional experience penalty of ~14%

Do you level like this?
Thresholds 1-8 @ full experience: 16,000 earned, 16,000 gained
Threshold 9 @ 14% penalty: 2,280 earned, 2,000 gained
Threshold 10 @ 28% penalty: 2,560 earned, 2,000 gained
Threshold 11 @ 42% penalty: 2,840 earned, 2,000 gained
etc.

Or do you level like this?
Thresholds 1-8 @ full experience: 16,000 earned, 16,000 gained
Threshold 9 @ 14% penalty: 2,000 earned, 1,720 gained
Threshold 10 @ 28% penalty: 2,000 earned, 1,440 gained
Threshold 11 @ 42% penalty: 2,000 earned, 1,160 gained
etc.

The reason I ask this is it ends up making a few hours difference on just how long you can level a class. It's important to understand which system is in place in order to see just how this system will work, and what adjustments would have to be made to make it palatable for the more hardcore player.
#109 Aug 28 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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From my understanding (take that for what it's worth), between postings by others and from reading into SE's comments, it's the second one. If you avg 2k/hr, every 2k you *should* have earned pushes you into the next hour.
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#110RSquires, Posted: Aug 28 2010 at 10:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ^ Agree.
#111 Aug 28 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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It had gotten to the point in XI where I felt if I didn't log on for a night I'd get left behind from a few groups I had enjoyed playing with. Now it won't happen. God forbid if I just wanted to go explore Xarcabard or something random. I won't have to grind ALL week to get the equivalent level ups I did in XI. Just a day, maybe two.

I can keep playing that class with no bonus if I felt like it, and if this were XI, I'd *HAVE* to, to have reached the level I already am. But now, it's a choice. I dinged level 15 4 days early so maybe I'll take said class and go explore that new area that's good for 15's. Go looking for that better camp spot, or new fishing hole, or whatever. ****, at least now we'll have time to work with the retainer system of doom.





You're imposing your desire to stay leveled up with your friends as a fault of the game, and not your friends who play more than you. That's the problem I see with that argument.
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#112 Aug 28 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I also have another question: Assume that instead of a steady decrease as the surplus system appears to institute, there was a rested exp system, for the first 8 hours of leveling every class each week you gain double exp, then it drops to 1x (a 50% penalty).

We have already heard from surplus protesters that 50% is nearly unbearable. It sounds like surplus won't put you to 50% until about halfway down the decline, so would you prefer to reach the point at which it is unbearable sooner? That was just a side question. My main questions is: If you used up your rested experience for a class for the week, would you continue to grind at 50% experience (unbearable), or would you see that the primary progress benefit to that class has finished and move on to another class, or crafting, or gathering, or exploring, or questing, or missions?
#113 Aug 28 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I would continue at 50% until I was done whatever I was doing on that character at that time, be it leves, a party, helping friends. Below that, I'd log off, switch to something else, leave a group.
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#114 Aug 28 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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to the threshold math dude, im not sure how its computed over time, but the first threshold is basically 10% they round off weird at some times.
the procress doesnt seem exactly gradual, though there may be more gradations. but i remember like 10% 25% roughly, 50% and 66-70% roughly, after that i hbit the level i was trying for, and i didnt hesitate to port and switch jobs.
#115 Aug 28 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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You're imposing your desire to stay leveled up with your friends as a fault of the game, and not your friends who play more than you. That's the problem I see with that argument.


And you're right, if you're **** bent on speeding past folks, or being better and faster then the casual, that comment alone will kill a game for you. That I *did* keep up is not the issue. The issue here is that we can either have longer xp arcs, or shorter times to reach the ends of those arcs in.

Given the option of 10k to level 10, but only at 8 hrs of xp'ing per week, or 40k to level 10 and unlimited xp gain (note, not playing the character, which you can still do, just xp gain), I'll take the 8 hrs to 10k. That gives me the other theoretical 30 hours to either STILL play the job, just with no xp, or go do something else, like play with my friends WITHOUT caring about the 30 minutes we got burnt for looking for healer because our current one had to go walk the dog.

A lot of people are seeing at being unrewarded for playing the game. I just don't anymore. I see it as being rewarded quicker, but there's just a different governor on how much you earn at a time.

(Edit for typo)

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 12:41pm by GUDare
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#116 Aug 28 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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I have to admit it amazes me how everyone knows exactly how steep the exp curve would be without surplus. I didn't realize so many people worked with SE in designing this system to know what the alternative would be.
#117 Aug 28 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Nobody knows what the exp curve would have been without the surplus. It is just entirely safe to assume that it would be greater, as they have a need to limit the rate at which we progress through the game over time so that we feel those warm fuzzies.
#118 Aug 28 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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LOL, alright, Pac, point. Like anyone else I'm making assumptions. But if the average hardcore player goes 36 hours a week (4 a weekday + 8 each weekend), a 4x estimate seems reasonable to me to get the same result.
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#119 Aug 28 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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From my understanding (take that for what it's worth), between postings by others and from reading into SE's comments, it's the second one. If you avg 2k/hr, every 2k you *should* have earned pushes you into the next hour.


If this is the case, then I think that would be a shortcoming that they should address. Psychologically, people will find it more acceptable if the next 2k is a bit harder to earn than if x% of the next 2k was taken away from them. Mostly, what I see is that SE is doing a **** poor job of selling this system.

Quote:
to the threshold math dude, im not sure how its computed over time, but the first threshold is basically 10% they round off weird at some times.
the procress doesnt seem exactly gradual, though there may be more gradations. but i remember like 10% 25% roughly, 50% and 66-70% roughly, after that i hbit the level i was trying for, and i didnt hesitate to port and switch jobs.


I think this is the point of the gradual decline. Everybody gets to decide their own acceptable level of experience gain, and most will log or switch to something else sometime during the 90%, 75%, or possibly the 50% gain rate. The hard cap (0%) will not affect many if any at all. However, if you are truly dedicated to your class you will power on to the 0% rate, and you will get to max level quicker than everybody else.

Quote:
I would continue at 50% until I was done whatever I was doing on that character at that time, be it leves, a party, helping friends. Below that, I'd log off, switch to something else, leave a group.


Clearly this is a case where the surplus system is more beneficial to you than a standard rested exp system, because the 50% drop does not kick in until a few steps down the ladder. Once again, everybody gets to decide on what level of progress they find acceptable for each hour of their life they pour into this game.

The reason that WoW players don't stop grinding after they have exhausted their rested exp in most cases is for a few reasons:

1. They only get rested experience for not playing.
2. There are very few options to make progress with your current character.

With surplus experience, the bonus is applied to everybody's character weekly, regardless of how much or how little you play, and you have a good reason to stop grinding one class after the experience drop.
#120 Aug 28 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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RSquires wrote:
You know there is a surplus system in the game before it's even released.

You shot yourself in the foot with this.

Not everyone reads forums.
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#121 Aug 28 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
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You shot yourself in the foot with this.

Not everyone reads forums.


No, not everybody does, but the people claiming SE is forcing them to do something do.
#122 Aug 28 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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And you're right, if you're **** bent on speeding past folks


See, I don't care how fast other people are playing, I would like to progress at my pace, whatever that is.


Quote:

Clearly this is a case where the surplus system is more beneficial to you than a standard rested exp system, because the 50% drop does not kick in until a few steps down the ladder. Once again, everybody gets to decide on what level of progress they find acceptable for each hour of their life they pour into this game.


My problem with surplus is that after X exp on a class, it will stop. If this was a backwards rest system, I'd be able to grind through with 50% exp, but the way the system is, its stops. Its a soft level cap in place for each week.


Quote:
No, not everybody does, but the people claiming SE is forcing them to do something do


You do have a point, SE isn't forcing anyone, they're giving ultimatums.
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#123 Aug 28 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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bunsisbuns wrote:
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You shot yourself in the foot with this.

Not everyone reads forums.


No, not everybody does, but the people claiming SE is forcing them to do something do.


And what about the people who drop 50-75 bucks on the game and find out later that FFXIV has a system that no other game on the shelf at their local game store has that punishes you for liking one job too much?

They're just out 50-75 bucks? @#%^ 'em?

If nothing else, it's safe to assume that the people who will play who post on forums are less than 10% of the total playerbase; probably less than that even.

No matter how much you like it, you can look forward to the next few months of /shout in major cities being laden with people who have never heard of this asking "WTF is surplus XP?" and the ensuing arguments over it in shout.

It anything else, I suppose it will be a change of topic from the usual "WoW is better" that plagues every new MMORPG.

It's still one more thing that you're going to have to listen to people ***** about for months in shout unless you intend to fill up your ignore list really fast.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 3:51pm by Mikhalia
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#124 Aug 28 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
bunsisbuns wrote:
Quote:

You shot yourself in the foot with this.

Not everyone reads forums.


No, not everybody does, but the people claiming SE is forcing them to do something do.


And what about the people who drop 50-75 bucks on the game and find out later that FFXIV has a system that no other game on the shelf at their local game store has that punishes you for liking one job too much?

They're just out 50-75 bucks? @#%^ 'em?

If nothing else, it's safe to assume that the people who will play who post on forums are less than 10% of the total playerbase; probably less than that even.

No matter how much you like it, you can look forward to the next few months of /shout in major cities being laden with people who have never heard of this asking "WTF is surplus XP?" and the ensuing arguments over it in shout.

It anything else, I suppose it will be a change of topic from the usual "WoW is better" that plagues every new MMORPG.

It's still one more thing that you're going to have to listen to people ***** about for months in shout unless you intend to fill up your ignore list really fast.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 3:51pm by Mikhalia


Yeah that's somethin' to look forward to, there was going to be annoying stuff shouted with or without this system, but perhaps a lot more now. <Fun><Excitement>
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#125 Aug 28 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Excuse me, but you lost me there. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, your exp slows down because of the surplus. So you can't progress with a class for as long as you want when you hit the big surplus brick wall and start getting 0 exp.


The surplus is simply an unfinished system in the beta. The surplus points that you get don't slow down your exp-- they're a "consolation prize" of sorts for the fact that your xp has slowed down. It's just that right now, you can't see how many you have or spend them on anything.


Quote:
I have to disagree with you that when you get what you want, there is less game to play. There is always the same amount of game to experience for everyone. level 1-MAX on each class, every quest/mission/storyline is there. Every other MMO I've seen has let people choose in what order they want to experience the content. What I think people are upset about, is that this reveal comes out a month before CE release, and with it being a negative aspect to alot of people, it feels like this was being kept from us. If they were so proud of their surplus system, they should have previewed it right up on the main page with Guildleves and Aetheroyte (however you spell that crystal).


Actually, there is less game to play. The people who race to cap are going to bypass lower level content to the point that it is obsolete. It's still there, but is no longer a part of the game for them. They have no incentive to work for decent midlevel gear-- they'll level straight past that content. If they go back and do lower level events at higher levels, the difficulty won't be scaled to them, and that will result in less challenge and less game. Why do Camp Bearded Rock leves when you can do Skull Valley leves instead? The faster you reach higher levels, the fewer Bearded Rock leves will be done and the more Skull Valley leves will be done. This is a typical trend in MMOs, and results in the same total amount of playtime being distributed unevenly towards endgame content.

Quote:
I get that people are looking to the silver lining, of being encouraged (many would call it forced) to see other parts of the game sooner, But people could have done that by choice without the system. The best defense of the system I've seen is that "I wont play that much anyways, so it won't affect me", which I see as a pretty poor addition to the "pro" column. The worst defense I've seen of it is the selfish "this will stop 'hardcores' from seeing/doing content before me".


Yes, people could have, but they wouldn't. Let's not blatantly ignore human nature. You "could" keep leveling one class to cap-- it'd simply take you ten times longer than if you spread out your playtime. Why would you choose not to? Probably because it's not very productive progress towards your goals. And because almost everyone's primary goals are the same-- to reach endgame-- most everyone has difficulty justifying many side trips that don't work towards reaching the level cap. And now, they don't have nearly as much justifying to do.

As a simple example of these concepts, most people would probably LIKE to do the mission-style quests for all three of the nations, but that will take time away from their main goal to max their level. So they'll maybe do one of these, and/or they'll just come back to them after they reach their goal of capping their level. Only at this point, the content will be something they blow through BECAUSE they are at cap.

With the surplus system, those same people can easily justify capping a couple of classes for the week, and then doing all of the quests available to them, and then raising some money on better gear, and maybe then helping out a friend. Before, they would do nothing but grind to cap, completely surpassing all of that.

Of course, the system only works for the people who can appreciate what it does, but it shouldn't ruin the game for anyone. If grinding to cap is honestly the only part of the game you'll enjoy, you can still do that. Not being able to do it as much as you want shouldn't ruin the fun for you. It's not really any different than any other type of content on a timer. You couldn't do Dynamis, Assaults, Apollyon/Temenos, Einherjar or Salvage as much as you wanted to, either.

I can fully understand why people don't like the system, but it is largely a matter of perspective, rather than an inherently broken game mechanic. It's certainly not going to ruin the game.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 1:16pm by Kachi
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#126 Aug 28 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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The surplus is simply an unfinished system in the beta. The surplus points that you get don't slow down your exp-- they're a "consolation prize" of sorts for the fact that your xp has slowed down. It's just that right now, you can't see how many you have or spend them on anything.


They haven't decided what to do with that stored EXP yet but any kind of reward would only encourage people to keep grinding so that they can get said reward. It defeats the purpose of the system in the first place if that were the case. If the reward is too great people will grind to get it, if the reward is crap then people won't bother which again defeats the purpose.

Look, no matter how you look at it, it is a flawed system. I've provided two alternatives that could have been better. The thing is Square is **** bent on tossing in this system regardless of what the player base says and it's downright stupid on their part because, at the sake of sounding cliché ,they will risk losing people over this.

And I'll say it again, it's not a matter of EXP anyway it's having to stop doing what you like doing. The EXP just so happens to tie into it. Also make no mistake about it, when you hit that wall you will have to stop.
#127 Aug 28 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I think this conversation (not this thread, but across the many we are all posting on) has shifted from people thinking the system serves nobody to most everyone understanding that it serves many people, just not necessarily them. At this point in the conversation, we can continue to argue about who's right, which nobody is, or we can come to accept that this system will be loved by some, hated by some, and some will be indifferent.

There is still a great deal of value in fully understanding the system, but I believe we've analyzed and gotten all of the answers we can from the data that exists. We have hit a point in this conversation where our understanding of the surplus system will no longer grow until next week. In other words we have run into the 0% experience brick wall. I can live with that. I can still join into other threads about other topics, even though I like this one the best.

So... Good PT. Later.
#128 Aug 28 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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They haven't decided what to do with that stored EXP yet but any kind of reward would only encourage people to keep grinding so that they can get said reward. It defeats the purpose of the system in the first place if that were the case. If the reward is too great people will grind to get it, if the reward is crap then people won't bother which again defeats the purpose.

...

And I'll say it again, it's not a matter of EXP anyway it's having to stop doing what you like doing. The EXP just so happens to tie into it. Also make no mistake about it, when you hit that wall you will have to stop.


The reward SHOULD be "acceptable, not great." Here's my beef with what you've said. First of all, you won't have to stop when you hit the wall, because you'll be getting surplus. For the sake of argument, let's assume it's a mediocre reward like it should be, rather than something that encourages what the system tries to discourage. If you WANT to grind on one class because you LIKE playing on that one class, then you can still do that. You just don't have quite as much incentive.

I've already listed numerous examples of content in FFXI that are limited and you can't play as much as you want. Nobody ever seemed particularly upset by this.

If they take this system away, they'll probably replace it with one that causes it to take longer to hit cap and affords less free time and incentive for exploring other content along the way. This is either something that you see and think, "Oh, well when I look at it in its totality, it's actually a decent idea," or you think, "Man, I don't want to do ANYTHING but grind to cap on a single class. I'd rather do that for 12 hours to get to level 10 and be able to keep going than be able to get to level 10 in 8 hours and either get surplus/reduced xp or have to do something else."

There probably are better ways to do it, and I haven't read the specific suggestions. All I'm saying is that this is not the fundamentally disastrous idea that some people say it is-- simply a matter of perspective, and one that probably could have been shown in a more positive light had SE communicated better. It's fine if you hate it, but some people are hating it for the wrong reasons. They hate the way it sounds without considering the actual outcome.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#129 Aug 28 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

The surplus is simply an unfinished system in the beta. The surplus points that you get don't slow down your exp-- they're a "consolation prize" of sorts for the fact that your xp has slowed down. It's just that right now, you can't see how many you have or spend them on anything.


Surplus *was* a finished system. They made it, got it to within a few minor tweaks of being happy with it. It was ready to go. They are only thinking about changing it now because of the outrage. Surplus points were never a consolation, their original intentions were to do nothing but show you how much you are losing for sticking to one class.

Quote:
Actually, there is less game to play. The people who race to cap are going to bypass lower level content to the point that it is obsolete. It's still there, but is no longer a part of the game for them. They have no incentive to work for decent midlevel gear-- they'll level straight past that content. If they go back and do lower level events at higher levels, the difficulty won't be scaled to them, and that will result in less challenge and less game. Why do Camp Bearded Rock leves when you can do Skull Valley leves instead? The faster you reach higher levels, the fewer Bearded Rock leves will be done and the more Skull Valley leves will be done. This is a typical trend in MMOs, and results in the same total amount of playtime being distributed unevenly towards endgame content.


I think we're on the same page here of understanding, but have different opinions about it. We both agree the content doesn't disappear, but you're calling it obsolete. I disagree, when my Dragoon was in the 60s, I still leveled summoner and bard in sarutabaruta or Ronfur. My point was people are still going to level conj up to make the most of their thurm, but if they do that at level 10, or at level 30, should really be their own choice IMO.

With your comment that having a boosted phys level would allow people to skip leve area 1, for leve area 2, well I would argue that was a problem with the physical level system.

And of course most playtime is spent at the endgame. Once you're capped your stuck there. You can't spend but too much time at any mid level content because you bypass it.


Quote:

Yes, people could have, but they wouldn't. Let's not blatantly ignore human nature. You "could" keep leveling one class to cap-- it'd simply take you ten times longer than if you spread out your playtime. Why would you choose not to? Probably because it's not very productive progress towards your goals. And because almost everyone's primary goals are the same-- to reach endgame-- most everyone has difficulty justifying many side trips that don't work towards reaching the level cap. And now, they don't have nearly as much justifying to do.

As a simple example of these concepts, most people would probably LIKE to do the mission-style quests for all three of the nations, but that will take time away from their main goal to max their level. So they'll maybe do one of these, and/or they'll just come back to them after they reach their goal of capping their level. Only at this point, the content will be something they blow through BECAUSE they are at cap.

With the surplus system, those same people can easily justify capping a couple of classes for the week, and then doing all of the quests available to them, and then raising some money on better gear, and maybe then helping out a friend. Before, they would do nothing but grind to cap, completely surpassing all of that.

Of course, the system only works for the people who can appreciate what it does, but it shouldn't ruin the game for anyone. If grinding to cap is honestly the only part of the game you'll enjoy, you can still do that. Not being able to do it as much as you want shouldn't ruin the fun for you. It's not really any different than any other type of content on a timer. You couldn't do Dynamis, Assaults, Apollyon/Temenos, Einherjar or Salvage as much as you wanted to, either.

I can fully understand why people don't like the system, but it is largely a matter of perspective, rather than an inherently broken game mechanic. It's certainly not going to ruin the game.


You are right, some people wouldn't. And that shouldn't bother anyone. If a guy wants to skip a bunch of content, spend 3 months leveling up to cap before Star War's new MMO comes out, I think he should be able to. Maybe i want to level my lancer to 40, before going back and picking up some of the pugilist abilities I'd like to have. Maybe I'm so sick of skull rock and want to see the next zone, but I can't. Maybe my friend's level 20, I'm 17, but i can't quite catch up because I'm surplused down to 20% exp, or "capped" at 1%.

as far as surplus shouldn't ruin the game for people, I agree. I'll modify my play to fit within it, but other's wont. It'll alienate people away from the game, and I'll be sad to see that happen. I don't see a problem with timer/lockouts for endgame content, because thats all there is, you're already at the top of a ladder. However, if I'm out questing on Em mobs that gave 200exp each 2 hours ago, and give 150 now, it should be because I progressed past them, and not because the software thinks I've had more than my share.


I think most of your arguments are against "hardcore", rush to cap, finish all available end game content and complain the game is to short types of players. I agree that they'll miss out, but they're also not likely to be the players who doddle around leveling DoL and DoH jobs, since the cap on those is going to upset them just as much as the cap on DoW/DoMs. They're going to miss most of any game they play, and either their fine with it, or its their loss. Me I'm the kind of player who will get to most of it one day, but I'd rather choose when. I don't like that I can't play extra during thanksgiving break when I have the extra time. (and I should add, that by play, I mean play how I want, I'm aware I could go ***** around on some class I'm not interested in).

I still think the whole system is a slow raising level cap in disguise, in which case I'm angry. Or its a misguided attempt to reward players who play various classes (which I'm fine with, but surplus is a poor way of doing that).
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#130 Aug 28 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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CarthRDM wrote:
RSquires wrote:
You know there is a surplus system in the game before it's even released.

You shot yourself in the foot with this.

Not everyone reads forums.


No but I bet that those who don't, know someone who does and I'd be willing to bet that they have heard about this surplus system. Anyone who is fan of 11 and looking foward to 14 will know about this surplus.
And I know your argument will be "but SE has said they are trying to bring in new people, how are people going to react to a game they can only play so much...ect....ect...".
Odds when these people to go their local store to buy this game there will be hords of people tackeling them and shout "DON'T PLAY IT, IT FORCES YOU TO DO OTHER THINGS!!!!" then happily directs them to the shelf with WoW on it going: "here this games lets you play how I like to play".
All the while completely ignoring that fact that some people, not many apparently, will acutally level multiple jobs in a MMO.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 6:48pm by RSquires

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 6:50pm by RSquires

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 6:53pm by RSquires

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 6:54pm by RSquires
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#131 Aug 28 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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the key difference between it and a slow raise cap, is it never goes away. someone who waits 2 months isnt hindered by the old cap. Its basically a you can only progress this far per week ever thing

also content isnt based on your physical level, its based on when you hit the skill cap first for that discipline

if you hit 20 on a DOW/DOM job you have access to level 30 battle leves
If you hit 20 on a DOL you will theoretically have access to level 30 fieldcraft leves
As far as crafting, it works a little different, but new tiers of leves are randomly shuffled in every 5 levels.
story mode was available at level 1, and then at level 10 on any discipline

and keep this in mind, because the system is set up this way, it means that the higher level you get, the less content is available to you. When it takes 4 weeks to go from level 40-50 and you have had to play the same content over and over again, i wonder if you ll think its so cool (based on current exp prohections on the first 30 levels that is the projection however they could alter the curve if they are smart)

far as beta physical level unlocked nothing.

i think a lot of people on the side of surplus are just on it because they dont want to spread bad vibes about the game, and are hopeful. they look for good reasons for it to exist.

their basic thing they have grasped on to is, If there is no surplus, they will have to increase the exp caps.
this may be what SE thinks, but it is actually wrong. The amount of content doesnt change if you have to wait weeks to see it. Making people wait to play the job they want, and allowing them to see less content the more they play, is a bad formula. If they want to make a game that appeals to casuals, then setting then end point at 8 weeks for 1 week of content is a bad idea, people will lose interest. If they really think leveling other jobs can keep thier interest, then it would have done that anyway.

far as getting back an investment uhhhh thats what the 50-75 dollars is, it pays for thier initial investments, the 13 a month is for maintaining the servers and developing new content. This game has a lot of stuff, but on release, it doesnt have much more than most offline games they make.

Being that in truth they could take out surplus, and keep the same exp curve, which would probably appeal to casuals even more than hardcore, the only reason to want surplus, is to limit other people from passing you, or make them play your style.

So basically if you could choose between no surplus, and the same exp curve, or surplus with exp curve what would you choose? and why? think about your real motivations.
#132 Aug 28 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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yinstroo wrote:
So basically if you could choose between no surplus, and the same exp curve, or surplus with exp curve what would you choose? and why? think about your real motivations.


I honestly don't care either way about the surplus. Sure people are going to be able to play more then me, sure they are going to pass me in level and get to do things first, ya know what that means? Means by the time I go to do something, someone has already done it a week ago and posted a guide about it online, which in turn saves me the time of guessing at it. I find your post good in away but on the other hand not so much. Your ending comment leads me to believe that you think those of us who want or don't care about the surplus are doing it because we don't want others to get to far ahead of us. But wouldn't that work the other way around by say those that don't want it only want it gone so they can hurry past everyone else and be the first to do something. No matter how anyone looks at this, people that don't share their same views on this surplus thing are wrong, misguided or whatever reason we want to use. As I've said I don't care either way, surplus or no surplus. Still playing the game.
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#133 Aug 28 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you dont care either way, then you dont care, i could see why people wouldnt care, but other than an exp curve, i wonder why people who prefer the system prefer it. Because if SE believe this game has enough entertainment to level 4 jobs with a cap of 50, it actually will take the same time to do that in either scenario. If they are worried that it only is entertaining once, then they are in trouble in either case, because you will lose the people when they hit cap 50, or you will lose them before cap 50 with surplus if this is the case.
#134 Aug 28 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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yinstroo wrote:
If you dont care either way, then you dont care, i could see why people wouldnt care, but other than an exp curve, i wonder why people who prefer the system prefer it. Because if SE believe this game has enough entertainment to level 4 jobs with a cap of 50, it actually will take the same time to do that in either scenario. If they are worried that it only is entertaining once, then they are in trouble in either case, because you will lose the people when they hit cap 50, or you will lose them before cap 50 with surplus if this is the case.


I think the reason some people 'prefer' it is because it doesn't effect their game play or perhaps the popular choice, they feel they won't get left to far behind everyone else. Seems to be the only choices for wanting or not wanting the system; it either holds you back or it helps you keep up. Depends on your playing type I guess. And please don't say: "SE is forcing me to play the way they want me to" If so refer to my post I made a good ways back about SE 'forcing' you to do anything.
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#135 Aug 28 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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yinstroo wrote:
If you dont care either way, then you dont care, i could see why people wouldnt care, but other than an exp curve, i wonder why people who prefer the system prefer it. Because if SE believe this game has enough entertainment to level 4 jobs with a cap of 50, it actually will take the same time to do that in either scenario. If they are worried that it only is entertaining once, then they are in trouble in either case, because you will lose the people when they hit cap 50, or you will lose them before cap 50 with surplus if this is the case.


Hmmm, I don't think I would say I prefer it as a standalone part of the game. The system itself looks bad right away. What I prefer is what they're trying to do in the overall game and how this system works with the rest of it. I don't have to grind as long, I don't have to wait in jeuno forever for a party(one of those progression walls we don't physically see), I can seemingly accomplish so much more in a week than I ever could in XI. Like I mentioned in another post, you couldn't pick up XI & level straight to 75, you had to wait for parties, you had to do a subjob sidequest, airship pass sidequest for Kahzam, travel to the crags in new areas, limit break quests, etc.

All added together this is looking like a good system I can enjoy with much less hassle than XI. A lot of the arguments against it tend to be about one isolated hypothetical situation that ignores the rest of the game. From what I experienced in the beta these would be exceptions rather than the norm. However if people are testing this stuff out soon in Open Beta and showing better proof of how awful the system is I'll be listening. My main purpose for continuously posting on the subject(despite getting really tired of it) is because I think some good Zam people are close to missing out on a good game because they're assuming the worst. And at the very least the solution here should be to see what happens with Open Beta and go from there....
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#136 Aug 28 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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ahhh see thats thing i dont get, why do they want to keep up with people. SE also thinks in these terms, and maybe they are correct, they feel people measure thier progress by how far others are
But if this really is teh case, then the new problem will be people who feel they are unfairly held back because they adopted later, relative to some one on release they will always be newbs. Especially the ps3 people. the people who didnt want to play because it would take X amount of hours to catch up will probably overlap with the people who wont want to play because they will never catch up.

Some people do believe though this system is a release system that they plan to phase out anyhow, so maybe thats the master plan.
#137 Aug 28 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think it's so much a 'keeping up with the Joneses' idea that the casual defenders have, since the hardcore are going to be able to camp Behest quest givers for the mob that drops 'Gandalf's left sleeve of wizardry' for their conjurer garb. The casuals aren't going to keep up period. They already know that. Even if it's just on sub-job extra skills to include to be 'the baddest'.

What this does is instead of putting the leveling method at such a steep curve that it keeps the 'hardcore' paying for 4-6 months to go through the established content, and thus it'll take the average casual ~2 years, it lets them reach it in a reasonable amount of time while the 'hardcore' get to do other things as well.

Everyone forgets that SE is a business, and that business is entertainment over time to make money. Period. Without that the company fails and doesn't make games. They *must* get their dimes from you. So, with that simple fact out of the way (please, call it an opinion...) let's look at reality... and marketing.

WOW casual, can't raid 5 nights a week, doesn't get to play on the end game, has no chance in **** of getting out of the grind in a year, hears about FFXIV and its 'casual friendly' attitude. Holy crap. That's a LOT of new players. A LOT. They're not going to kill the fanbase if *my* expectations are accurate (now, yes, that's opinion). They'll probably double it.

The casuals will actually know what the inside of Dynamis looks like. Oh gods. Horrible. They got there in six months without poopsocking! How could you SE?! Oh, you're not wearing Wizards underwear from faction quest 422? and the Clock of timestopping? You're still not L33T, go home. Hardcores will still have their 'best of best' achievements. What this does is let SE get their money from everyone without the casuals never seeing half the content because of over-steep xp curves for year(s).

Gyeah. The more I think about this the more I think it's an awesome move on SE's part. *twitch* To think I utterly hated this the first time I found out about it.
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A possible retainer idea

#138 Aug 28 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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my premise, is minus the belief that they would lengthen exp curves, what is the benefit, because it doesnt neccessarily have to be the case. But even if you think it is, imagine it is not, then what is the benefit

also, leveling to level 75 in ffxi could take less time than it will to get 50 in this system. The whole super grind on FFXI isnt really the main thing, looks like about 231k to level 50, which at 8k an hour is like 23 hours. or 4 weeks of what they think is casual play now, at 28k an hour, on beta level exp, it will take you about 21 hours to get level 30. after doing this math, the illusion of the lower exp curve is apparently bull, the current curve is actually steeper than ffxi, and they limit your hours doing it.

check this, not mine but from level 1-30 its accurate from what ive seen http://viion.co.uk/upload/files/expchart.png

ffxi doesnt take 2 years, or even that many months, even for a casual to get to 75, even playing 8 hours a week of exp. the probelm with ffxi hardcores hasnt been about level for a long long time, if it ever was.

but yeah assuming your curve is the same, what is the advantage of this system

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 12:10am by yinstroo

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 12:11am by yinstroo
#139 Aug 28 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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[img=175504]

Now Yinstroo, ima let you finish, but FFXI HAD ONE OF THE BEST EXP CURVES OF ALL TIME!
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#140 Aug 28 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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yinstroo wrote:
my premise, is minus the belief that they would lengthen exp curves, what is the benefit, because it doesnt neccessarily have to be the case. But even if you think it is, imagine it is not, then what is the benefit

also, leveling to level 75 in ffxi could take less time than it will to get 50 in this system. The whole super grind on FFXI isnt really the main thing, looks like about 231k to level 50, which at 8k an hour is like 23 hours. or 4 weeks of what they think is casual play now, at 28k an hour, on beta level exp, it will take you about 21 hours to get level 30. after doing this math, the illusion of the lower exp curve is apparently bull, the current curve is actually steeper than ffxi, and they limit your hours doing it.

check this, not mine but from level 1-30 its accurate from what ive seen http://viion.co.uk/upload/files/expchart.png

ffxi doesnt take 2 years, or even that many months, even for a casual to get to 75, even playing 8 hours a week of exp. the probelm with ffxi hardcores hasnt been about level for a long long time, if it ever was.

but yeah assuming your curve is the same, what is the advantage of this system
Very interesting. That exp chart looks nasty, but from what I recall it's pretty accurate.
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#141 Aug 28 2010 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The casuals will actually know what the inside of Dynamis looks like. Oh gods. Horrible. They got there in six months without poopsocking! How could you SE?! Oh, you're not wearing Wizards underwear from faction quest 422? and the Clock of timestopping? You're still not L33T, go home. Hardcores will still have their 'best of best' achievements. What this does is let SE get their money from everyone without the casuals never seeing half the content because of over-steep xp curves for year(s).


Most people I've seen opposing Surplus don't care how fast anyone but themselves level up, they just don't want to worry about hitting brick walls. If I have surplus kick in after 18 hours in a week, but I'd planned to play 20 on a class, that's lame.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again here. If i want to do story missions before leveling subjob abilities, I don't see how that hurts anyone. If i want to get to a new leveling zone before I work on my armorsmith, Whats the big deal. SE's imposing limits that will tell people they are done enjoying the content they would like to spend their free time on. No game (i'm aware of) has done that before, because its lame.
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#142 Aug 28 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Most people I've seen opposing Surplus don't care how fast anyone but themselves level up, they just don't want to worry about hitting brick walls. If I have surplus kick in after 18 hours in a week, but I'd planned to play 20 on a class, that's lame.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again here. If i want to do story missions before leveling subjob abilities, I don't see how that hurts anyone. If i want to get to a new leveling zone before I work on my armorsmith, Whats the big deal. SE's imposing limits that will tell people they are done enjoying the content they would like to spend their free time on. No game (i'm aware of) has done that before, because its lame.


Pretty much my sentiments. I fully intend to see what the story line and quests of this game have to offer, it's not about trying to zip to the endgame as fast as possible. However, if I should happen to have a little extra free time on my hands, a scenario such as...

Game: I'm sorry you've hit your experience limit, please go do something else now.
Me: But I wasn't done yet, can't I just play for a li-
Game: I SAID GO DO SOMETHING ELSE G^*#(@*#$*&1!?1

A system that has the potential to tell me when I'm done doing what I want to do, doesn't sound very fun.
#143 Aug 28 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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yinstroo wrote:
my premise, is minus the belief that they would lengthen exp curves, what is the benefit, because it doesnt neccessarily have to be the case. But even if you think it is, imagine it is not, then what is the benefit

also, leveling to level 75 in ffxi could take less time than it will to get 50 in this system. The whole super grind on FFXI isnt really the main thing, looks like about 231k to level 50, which at 8k an hour is like 23 hours. or 4 weeks of what they think is casual play now, at 28k an hour, on beta level exp, it will take you about 21 hours to get level 30. after doing this math, the illusion of the lower exp curve is apparently bull, the current curve is actually steeper than ffxi, and they limit your hours doing it.

check this, not mine but from level 1-30 its accurate from what ive seen http://viion.co.uk/upload/files/expchart.png

ffxi doesnt take 2 years, or even that many months, even for a casual to get to 75, even playing 8 hours a week of exp. the probelm with ffxi hardcores hasnt been about level for a long long time, if it ever was.

but yeah assuming your curve is the same, what is the advantage of this system

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 12:10am by yinstroo

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 12:11am by yinstroo


Like I said before, I can't explain why this system and not something else except that this is what they chose. But while those graph numbers do show a big difference, they don't show the intangibles. Time lost in Jeuno or Whitegate waiting on that party, that may or may not ever come, in order to get that good rate of exp. Maybe a day gone by with very little accomplished. Where in XIV I can step outside solo and get that rate of exp. ****, I can craft and fish for that rate of exp. That's where the other good parts of the overall XIV system help me overlook the surplus system. But just looking at the surplus system on its own I tend to agree with you guys. I guess I'm also more hopeful that it won't affect people as bad as they think. Time will tell on that...

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#144 Aug 28 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Since I'm turning myself into one of the primary targets here, might as well respond, 'neh? :)

Yinstroo, I guess it depends on when you joined into FFXI and how quickly you could find groups and the like. I, and a number of other folks, all got pretty much shut down tight at level 40 because the majority of gamers were in endgame mode or just leveling subs. Not that groups were impossible, found some folks of like minds, but that's a different issue.

I didn't play the new expansions after N/A release. Rise of the Zilart/Chains/Aht Urghan were the expansions I had. Once you got to Aht Urghan yes xp was better. The 'early levels' were long, and I consider myself relatively hardcore, though I do work and can't live in the basement.

Quote:
my premise, is minus the belief that they would lengthen exp curves, what is the benefit, because it doesnt neccessarily have to be the case. But even if you think it is, imagine it is not, then what is the benefit


*IF* I am wrong, and it'd take a big wrong, about them removing surplus and NOT boosting xp/level to force renewals, then surplus would mean sh*tall to me, and probably most casuals, supporting the system. They'll get to endgame when they get there, and it's not an unreasonable trek for someone who can't study forum boards to know what their 'optimum' leveling areas are, best gear for level, and can't spend 8 hrs/week farming some pricy drop to buy said gear.

But, SE is a business. One way or another, it's going to take you x time to go through y content, and that price is along the lines of cost/# of expected subscriptions + (number from rear *******) $20. So if content costs $140/expected user (same *******), then they need to recover $60 for the game + 8 renewals ($13 * 8 = 102) for $160/subscriber. One way or another, they're going to try to make sure they get their 8 renewals.

@KujaKoF/Pacster: It's not that I don't sympathize with the viewpoint. I'm sure at some point I'm going to be ticked that either I get my pug in 8 hours this week too or he's screwed next week for my regular partying group and can't catch up later because I really just want to veg out and go fishing. SE's 'diminishing returns' system I'm sure is more there so people who group up or are mid-quest don't suddenly get nothing because of underestimation of previous gains.

However, this:
Quote:
SE's imposing limits that will tell people they are done enjoying the content they would like to spend their free time on


I have to disagree with. You're more then welcome to run your 0% xp'ing lancer (miner, weaver, whatever) and do what you like with it and enjoy it. You just won't continue to gain towards the next level. I guess because of the above, I see it from a completely different viewpoint. I got to level 15 in 2 days instead of 7, and now for 5 days I get to play with the extra abilities, I just can't progress further.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 1:24am by GUDare
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#145 Aug 29 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Like I said before, I can't explain why this system and not something else except that this is what they chose. But while those graph numbers do show a big difference, they don't show the intangibles. Time lost in Jeuno or Whitegate waiting on that party, that may or may not ever come, in order to get that good rate of exp. Maybe a day gone by with very little accomplished. Where in XIV I can step outside solo and get that rate of exp. ****, I can craft and fish for that rate of exp. That's where the other good parts of the overall XIV system help me overlook the surplus system. But just looking at the surplus system on its own I tend to agree with you guys. I guess I'm also more hopeful that it won't affect people as bad as they think. Time will tell on that...



your right, the main difference is that they have given casuals the ability to get exp that only experenced players with good groups used to be able to get. they reduce travel times *amima, and add exp rings*goddess favor at the start of game. not to mention solo battle is more interesting, and you get rewarded for smaller gains, ie new skill every two levels. this stuff all makes the grind seem a lot faster to most.
however, though i didnt do it before, the math shows, its the same as ffxi in terms of actual time to level for a good exp amount, think about it, if you played ffxi recently, how long did it take to get to level 30, in a good party, with exp rings and the like. How long do you think it takes a casual player to get level 30 in ffxi. The exp curve is the same or worse, the hassle to get good exp is lower. Good idea honestly, but that doesnt explain why surplus. Surplus isnt needed to make the curve lower, because its not a lower curve. its easier/more fun to travel it but its not lower.


So then one must wonder, why surplus?
I say, a perception that people will measure themselves against other people. SE probably figures, its not actually the hours to next level, its the idea that other people are higher, and trying to catch them will take a long time. thier assumption is people wont be mad at leveling as long as no one is that much higher

other advantages, its easier to adjust and deal with exploits and unforseen things if people can only get so far with it. as well as longer time to work on later skills, basically even if the level 50 skills dont work at launch, no one, no matter how smart, or how much time they have will see a level 40-50 skill for 5 to 6 weeks if exp at 30 stays the same and turns into a straight line. or any of the missions or content for that. problem is, this is only true for the game when its new, in a few months, none of those start up issues will matter.

I sure hope they have way more content than they had for ffxi from 30-50 because for most of us, it will take way longer to reach these levels. we ll basically get 30 in 2 to 3 weeks, 30-40 will take another 2 to 3 weeks but have the same amount of content as 20-30.



edit@ the balance in this game is a lil dif from ffxi, in that getting 1-12 is probably way faster than ffxi, but 12-20 is slower, and 20-30 is way slower

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 2:09am by yinstroo

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 2:11am by yinstroo
#146 Aug 29 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Pretty much my sentiments. I fully intend to see what the story line and quests of this game have to offer, it's not about trying to zip to the endgame as fast as possible. However, if I should happen to have a little extra free time on my hands, a scenario such as...

Game: I'm sorry you've hit your experience limit, please go do something else now.
Me: But I wasn't done yet, can't I just play for a li-
Game: I SAID GO DO SOMETHING ELSE G^*#(@*#$*&1!?1

A system that has the potential to tell me when I'm done doing what I want to do, doesn't sound very fun.


Realistically that's not going to happen. You'll see a gradual decline and decide if it's worth the additional work per reward to keep moving towards your goal or take a break.

Quote:

Surplus *was* a finished system. They made it, got it to within a few minor tweaks of being happy with it. It was ready to go. They are only thinking about changing it now because of the outrage. Surplus points were never a consolation, their original intentions were to do nothing but show you how much you are losing for sticking to one class.


That's contrary to my understanding of the situation. Do you have anything to support this or is it just speculation? The inclusion of surplus skill ups suggests that you're mistaken.

Quote:
And of course most playtime is spent at the endgame. Once you're capped your stuck there. You can't spend but too much time at any mid level content because you bypass it.


Exactly my point. And the faster you bypass it, the less total playtime that content gets, and the less total playtime the game gets... the less total content to experience. Unless you subscribe to the crazy theory that there will just be oodles and oodles of endgame content.

Per the rest of your post, I don't have time to address it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#147 Aug 29 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Good
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952 posts
Quote:
Maybe my friend's level 20, I'm 17, but i can't quite catch up because I'm surplused down to 20% exp, or "capped" at 1%.


Oh crap, I haven't even thought about this. Man the more I read the more I hate this.

Right now I'm torn, I really want to play the game but this system is irritating the **** out of me. What I may end up doing is getting the game and experience the story content then promptly quit in till new story content is introduced. That was the main reason I played XI but found other things to keep me entertained.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 2:59am by CupDeNoodles
#148 Aug 29 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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80 posts
I'm still convinced that the system they have out in place will work out fine, and just that internet speculation has blown it way out of proportion. Sure they could have handled the whole thing better, and maybe even worded the surplus system better but it's there for a reason. Square isn't a new company and while I haven't been a fan of all of their systems (FFXIII anyone?) I'm really holding off passing judgement until the game is released. I've bought enough quality products from them in the past to not at least preorder this game and give it a shot. Yes restrictions are bad, especially when trying to play catch up, but hopefully a level sync system of some sort will be put in place. The whole job swapping thing is there for a reason, and I really think that playing just one job exclusively may actually gimp a character because they won't have certain skills available to them. Remember gimped SJ's? Besides battling RMT and all the other speculation about the reasons for surplus, I think it's also SE holding our hands and guiding in the right direction. Should they have to do this? No. So I guess what i;m trying to say is while i don't agree with slapping limit's on anything, I believe the system is going to be structured well enough that the game isn't going to be broken in anyway.

Edited for spelling

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 3:21am by Sploder
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#149 Aug 29 2010 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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2,120 posts
yinstroo wrote:

your right, the main difference is that they have given casuals the ability to get exp that only experenced players with good groups used to be able to get. they reduce travel times *amima, and add exp rings*goddess favor at the start of game. not to mention solo battle is more interesting, and you get rewarded for smaller gains, ie new skill every two levels. this stuff all makes the grind seem a lot faster to most.
however, though i didnt do it before, the math shows, its the same as ffxi in terms of actual time to level for a good exp amount, think about it, if you played ffxi recently, how long did it take to get to level 30, in a good party, with exp rings and the like. How long do you think it takes a casual player to get level 30 in ffxi. The exp curve is the same or worse, the hassle to get good exp is lower. Good idea honestly, but that doesnt explain why surplus. Surplus isnt needed to make the curve lower, because its not a lower curve. its easier/more fun to travel it but its not lower.


So then one must wonder, why surplus?
I say, a perception that people will measure themselves against other people. SE probably figures, its not actually the hours to next level, its the idea that other people are higher, and trying to catch them will take a long time. thier assumption is people wont be mad at leveling as long as no one is that much higher

other advantages, its easier to adjust and deal with exploits and unforseen things if people can only get so far with it. as well as longer time to work on later skills, basically even if the level 50 skills dont work at launch, no one, no matter how smart, or how much time they have will see a level 40-50 skill for 5 to 6 weeks if exp at 30 stays the same and turns into a straight line. or any of the missions or content for that. problem is, this is only true for the game when its new, in a few months, none of those start up issues will matter.

I sure hope they have way more content than they had for ffxi from 30-50 because for most of us, it will take way longer to reach these levels. we ll basically get 30 in 2 to 3 weeks, 30-40 will take another 2 to 3 weeks but have the same amount of content as 20-30.



edit@ the balance in this game is a lil dif from ffxi, in that getting 1-12 is probably way faster than ffxi, but 12-20 is slower, and 20-30 is way slower

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 2:09am by yinstroo

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 2:11am by yinstroo


Yeah it definitely has a nice start-up that may suck people right in before the real grind. Being able to quickly gather all those nifty weaponskills & abilities from the various classes kept me happy.

On the why question, I think most of the theories I've seen have 'some' merit. Keeping the hardcore/casual players close, ******** RMT's power-leveling business(maybe even not wanting regular players to power-level their friends too easily), perhaps a lack of end-game content so keep players busy while that gets developed, it's a trial that will be removed if it doesn't work out, and(I don't like this 1) it's only in place until PS3 release to make up for the delay. Some of those get more into conspiracy theory, but people are confused and wondering why so that stuff's gonna come up. Even if it's taken away later and SE says "it wasn't working out" people may wonder if it was always meant to only stay around for a few months.

Only a few more days until open beta though.... <fun><excitement>

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#150 Aug 29 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
Quote:
That's contrary to my understanding of the situation. Do you have anything to support this or is it just speculation? The inclusion of surplus skill ups suggests that you're mistaken.


I gave it about 15 minutes, couldn't find the interview. It was a followup to Komoto's first explanation. He mentioned that they felt surplus was fine, but would look into tweaking the numbers to make it less restrictive. As far as surplus skillups, theres enough posts that say surplus currently does nothing, is worth nothing, and that SE's original belief was that using surplus as any kind of reward system was going against the intent of the system. Later they said they would look into it as a way to make people upset about surplus happier about it. There have been a few posts in these threads (they're all bluring together) that point out how dumb it is that surplus can level up, when it does nothing.


Quote:
Exactly my point. And the faster you bypass it, the less total playtime that content gets, and the less total playtime the game gets... the less total content to experience. Unless you subscribe to the crazy theory that there will just be oodles and oodles of endgame content.


Again I disagree. If I go Lnc 1-40, pug 1-40, mar 1-40, or I go lnc/pug/mar 1-10, then 11-20, then 21-30, then 31-40 I'm spending the exact same amount of time with each class at each level. the second way even discourages going to different areas, If i just went 11-15 in one zone with pug, I may as well do the same thing all over with mar. Whereas if I did it the first way, I may do each class's leveling outside of the 3 major cities. Then again, all leveling spots arent made equal, and we'll end up with several Dunes type zones.
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#151 Aug 29 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Default
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Rjain wrote:
Quote:
My other issue with it, is that it prevents people from power leveling a class to catch up with friends. I hope this system is done away with by the PS3 release.


If they removed the surplus system, the only way you'd be able to "power level" is if you did something like a Summoner Burn as in FFXI, which at this point would probably be non-existant in this game. It would take just as long, if not longer, to reach the same level due to the insane increase in the EXP curve that would be inevitable with the removal of the system; therefore, you would have no time whatsoever to do anything else in the game but level.



Why do people keeping saying this? There would be no exp curve change by taking out the surplus. You still need to level other classes for skills etc. so someone being able to power level one class would certainly not make them a strong character. No matter what they are still gonna have to go back and level other classes. Lets say for example they want it to take a month for you to level all the classes via the surplus system. Well if you take out the surplus system there certainly not gonna make it take a month to level 1 class.

Funny thing is all the casual players are excited about the surplus system, but maybe they should rethink that. It's only an illusion that you get to pretend to keep up with the hardcore players. If you play 8 hours a day then your gonna keep up with the hardcore players in 1 class, but the hardcore player is gonna be maxed on every class, have a ton more skills and a ton more gil. I personally don't care about the surplus, only reason I don't like it is because it's gonna have a lot of faults and going to result in a lot less players in the game. I do see the benefits to it but many will only get frustrated and only see the faults, expecially people that buy the game x months after its released.
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