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#1 Aug 27 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
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In the past week I'm read a lot of comments, sugestions and demands from the players towards the developers and SE in general and personally I don't understand.

Did anyone make any demand of FFXIII during development? Do you make any demand of any product of any kind you think of buying in the future? Computers, cars, TVs?

As I see it we either look at the product and buy/rent it or not. Instead of demanding this and that I think we should wait and see the game. Then we can choose to buy/play it or not and let that be the voice of the consumer.
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#2 Aug 27 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Yea sure, but Toyota didn't invite me to drive their car before it was on sale and ask for suggestions.
#3 Aug 27 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Do they do beta tests for stand alone games where they involve people from all over?
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#4 Aug 27 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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Yea sure, but Toyota didn't invite me to drive their car before it was on sale and ask for suggestions.


Neither did SE, you chose to apply for Beta as your choice. Just because you decided to help find bugs and balance in the game doesn't give you the right to demand anything (IMO), just to sugest changes.

My point is that it appears the comunity is so enraged that they do no longer even make sugestions, just make critic after critic about it.

Quote:
Do they do beta tests for stand alone games where they involve people from all over?


To my best knowledge every game has it's testers. FFXII had was we call the in-house beta.
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#5 Aug 27 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
Yea sure, but Toyota didn't invite me to drive their car before it was on sale and ask for suggestions.


This times a hundred. They "asked" for player feedback and they are getting it, for better or for worse :P. How much of it they take to heart and make changes based on that feedback is in their hands. They still have to walk the fine line of not ignoring the playerbase while at the same time not catering to every demand.
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#6 Aug 27 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
Quote:
Yea sure, but Toyota didn't invite me to drive their car before it was on sale and ask for suggestions.


Neither did SE, you chose to apply for Beta as your choice. Just because you decided to help find bugs and balance in the game doesn't give you the right to demand anything (IMO), just to sugest changes.

My point is that it appears the comunity is so enraged that they do no longer even make sugestions, just make critic after critic about it.

Quote:
Do they do beta tests for stand alone games where they involve people from all over?


To my best knowledge every game has it's testers. FFXII had was we call the in-house beta.


Well, they did invite people to the beta. People wouldn't be in it if they didn't. It's not like you can invade the beta.

I think that so-called "demands" are made of the game with the understanding that it's a personal opinion, and that it affects only whether or not said player will purchase the game.

MMORPG's are a different breed. They change and evolve according to feedback given by players, even after the beta stages. That being the case, it's important for SE to be aware of the current attitude of players towards the game. If they're disgruntled, then it's important that they express it so that SE is aware of a potential problem.

If everyone was mum about every negative feeling they felt, the game would only change based upon the developer's impression. It would be lacking what I consider to be the most important opinion pool: that of the very population playing the game.
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#7 Aug 27 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Default
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It's not that I think people should just keep their discontent to themselves.

Trying to find a real life comparison with what I've been reading latelly and I can only come up with one, mob mentality.

People just jump into the bandwagon and start screeming bloody murder about a game that hasn't even been released.
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#8 Aug 27 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
It's not that I think people should just keep their discontent to themselves.

Trying to find a real life comparison with what I've been reading latelly and I can only come up with one, mob mentality.

People just jump into the bandwagon and start screeming bloody murder about a game that hasn't even been released.


You must understand though that if an issue is significant enough to enough people, it's going to raise a bit of a clamor. The volume of that noise is important, because that's really the only way that SE can gauge the public reception to their actions.

Withholding the rage until release is not healthy for the game. It's actually MUCH better for these issues to be raised beforehand. There isn't much indication from SE currently that significant changes will be made to the system (and past experience shows that we probably shouldn't expect it). I don't know if anything will change their mind, but people pitching a small fit about it might. Best to do that while something can still be done to remedy any concerns, before the game ends up in the hands of reviewers.

Games can die a quick death if early returns at release are not good. Raising a bit of heck right now might annoy some people, but it just might get the message across to SE. The onus is on the company to decide what (if any) further actions to take.

One might take the recent example of Blizzard's retraction of elements from their "Real ID" system in response to public outcry as demonstration that it works. We may not have seen such a quick and deliberate response from Blizzard had things been limited to a few calm suggestions. That would have been a poor indicator of player attitudes. Now Blizzard understands its consumers better, and the consumers understand Blizzard better.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 5:08pm by Eske

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 5:10pm by Eske
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#9 Aug 27 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
It's not that I think people should just keep their discontent to themselves.

Trying to find a real life comparison with what I've been reading latelly and I can only come up with one, mob mentality.

People just jump into the bandwagon and start screeming bloody murder about a game that hasn't even been released.


There's just as large of a "mob" jumping onto the bandwagon and screaming bloody murder about people who have legitimate concerns about a game that is less than a month away from release and their only defense for the game is "it's still in beta".

Open your eyes, if you don't bring attention to idiotic ideas NOW they'll still be around at release and ruin the game. This is why they have betas.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:13pm by Yogtheterrible
#10 Aug 27 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Hugus wrote:
It's not that I think people should just keep their discontent to themselves.

Trying to find a real life comparison with what I've been reading latelly and I can only come up with one, mob mentality.

People just jump into the bandwagon and start screeming bloody murder about a game that hasn't even been released.


There's just as large of a "mob" jumping onto the bandwagon and screaming bloody murder about people who have legitimate concerns about a game that is less than a month away from release and their only defense for the game is "it's still in beta".

Open your eyes, if you don't bring attention to idiotic ideas NOW they'll still be around at release and ruin the game. This is why they have betas.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:13pm by Yogtheterrible


Eh, one of my concerns is that some of the people raging the loudest either way haven't played in the beta to see for themselves and often times have a misinformed view of the systems in game to begin with. Or when given information they ignore it or don't understand it. I won't be that upset if those cries go ignored by SE.
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#11 Aug 27 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Hugus wrote:
In the past week I'm read a lot of comments, sugestions and demands from the players towards the developers and SE in general and personally I don't understand.

Did anyone make any demand of FFXIII during development?


No one was really allowed to give feedback. Maybe that's why so many people seem to dislike it.

Quote:

Do you make any demand of any product of any kind you think of buying in the future? Computers, cars, TVs?


As much as possible, yes.

Quote:

As I see it we either look at the product and buy/rent it or not. Instead of demanding this and that I think we should wait and see the game. Then we can choose to buy/play it or not and let that be the voice of the consumer.


And if every one simply chooses not to play it, who is served by that?

MMOs naturally evolve and change over time. The idea of waiting for some arbitrary moment when it is okay to give feedback is silly, which is of course why there is a beta in the first place. There's nothing wrong with making an early judgment as long as we are willing to revise our judgment as the product evolves.

If you want to wait until the game is released before you make any judgments, that's certainly your right, but it's not irrational for others to make an earlier judgment.
#12 Aug 27 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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This thread is stupid.

Without hearing the feedback from the community and trying to change things to how people want it to be then SE will lose subscriptions. Without enough subscriptions the game will fail and be a huge waste of their time. So it's in their best interests to listen to the "demands".

People calling them "demands" on the other hand is just lame and it's more like "feedback put in an aggressive tone because I'm an ignorant ****".

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#13 Aug 27 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
Yea sure, but Toyota didn't invite me to drive their car before it was on sale and ask for suggestions.


They were afraid that you wouldn't survive the test drive and would have been unable to buy the vehicle.
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#14 Aug 27 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
Yea sure, but Toyota didn't invite me to drive their car before it was on sale and ask for suggestions.


Neither did SE, you chose to apply for Beta as your choice. Just because you decided to help find bugs and balance in the game doesn't give you the right to demand anything (IMO), just to sugest changes.


How are you determining "demand" vs "suggestion?" Are people saying "I DEMAND!" literally or is that simply an emotional context that you've attached to their suggestions? If some one says "You can do what you want, but I won't buy it unless you do X" is that a demand or a suggestion? If some one knows what a product needs in order to meet their needs, and a company wants to sell them a product, then why shouldn't the customer speak up? How can a company ever decide whether it's worth adjusting to the customer if it doesn't know what the customer wants?

Quote:

My point is that it appears the comunity is so enraged that they do no longer even make sugestions, just make critic after critic about it.


If the suggestions have been made, but ignored, because a sense of urgency is lacking, which is more useful? Is it to keep making suggestions or is it to instill a sense of urgency? Being constructive is obviously the ideal approach, but when the problems and the solutions have been identified to the point of exhaustion, what is left to do except complain or leave?

Quote:

Quote:
Do they do beta tests for stand alone games where they involve people from all over?


To my best knowledge every game has it's testers. FFXII had was we call the in-house beta.


Beta testing implies testing by outsiders. The purpose is to get opinions especially of those who are not part of the development and who are very likely the target demographic for the product. In-house testing does exist, but it is not beta testing.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 5:35pm by KarlHungis
#15 Aug 27 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
Actually, that's why I'm working on my own games. I got sick of not being heard, so I'm hearing myself and those working with me. Hopefully you'll see us on XBLI someday.
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#16 Aug 27 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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PLDXavier, Defender of Justice wrote:
Actually, that's why I'm working on my own games. I got sick of not being heard, so I'm hearing myself and those working with me. Hopefully you'll see us on XBLI someday.


Awesome, wish I could do that. I'd be great with the story and being an idea guy, perhaps a director type, but not so much with the programming & technical stuff. People would hate me on message boards like this because I'd probably be far worse than SE in regards to ignoring the fans and simply making a game I want to play. No doubt making much harsher tweets than Tanaka could ever do...
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#17 Aug 27 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
Did anyone make any demand of FFXIII during development? Do you make any demand of any product of any kind you think of buying in the future? Computers, cars, TVs?


Um, are you serious? Yes, of course I do. I demand that my car be gas efficient, and have reliable parts, and have certain features that I like. And, unsurprisingly, the car companies respond with that.

I demand a LOT of my computer. I demand top graphics, and the ability to multi-task as much as I could ever want. I demand being able to surf the web without having to wait. And, unsurprisingly, computer companies respond with that also.

The point of ANY consumer product is to please the consumer. If you don't listen to your customers, you will definitely fail.
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#18 Aug 27 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a joke thread, right?

MMORPG =/= RPG
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#19 Aug 27 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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The point of ANY consumer product is to please the consumer. If you don't listen to your customers, you will definitely fail.


But with MMOs this is both a true and false statement. If they listen to the consumers to the point of makeing the game that the consumers say they want it will fail, no questions about it. MMO development is an honest case of ussual the person makeing it knows better than the people buying it.

MMO consumers are a strange breed, few of them actualy know what makes a good game but all of them are pretty insistant that they know best. If the game can be ajusted to be more appealing to the consumer without damaging the vision of the Devs then that is ussualy a good thing, harming that vision is going to harm the game in the long run.


I do agree though that part of the point of testing is to get feedback. It would be nice if people could remember the differance between helpfull testing and mindless bull more often though.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:05pm by zurinadrg
#20 Aug 27 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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This thread :

SE :"Hey tell us what you think of our game please. Let us know what we could put in that will make you want to buy it more"
US: "I can tell you what is already in it that makes me want to buy it less"
OP: "HOW DARE ALL OF YOU !"
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#21 Aug 28 2010 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
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I guess my initial point was that although the great majority of points of view and posts on this thread were posted with maturity, presenting people's points of view and explaining them that wasn't my experience in the posts about surplus/fatigue and such.

Quote:
Wow that was kinda douche baggy of him. Blame the foreigners. Sure. It's THEIR fault the JP beta testers are very confused. There's no way it could be the unexplained ghost nerf of level grinding...


Quote:
I like how he is only mad because it's spread to the JP community, they don't care about the non JP playerbase... say what you want but just don't spread rumours the JPs can pick up on!

Square as always are really stupid, they are in the final stages nearing release and something VERY important to the success of the game is being left unexplained. If this is in final people won't buy the game and if it fails at the begining people are very unforgiving, even if they do fix it later the damage will be done.


Quote:
It's too bad that Tanaka's big "lesson" is that "foreigners are bad" instead of "We should do a better job of explaining penalty systems."


In my opinion posts like the ones above (taken from only one thread out of the multitude that appeared last week) don't help to explain anything and only to enflame a situataion that all agree is delicate already.
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#22 Aug 28 2010 at 7:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Single player games do get tested too, mostly as others have mentioned by internal testing but sometimes externally too. I still have my Crimson Skies beta install somewhere around here, Microsoft sent it out to a few hundred TechNet subscribers who were interested :)

If I was given a copy of XIII and asked to comment on it before release I surely would have. To the OP, you realise people are complaining/praising/feedbacking on XIV because they have been asked to do so by Square Enix, right?
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#23 Aug 28 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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How are you determining "demand" vs "suggestion?" Are people saying "I DEMAND!" literally or is that simply an emotional context that you've attached to their suggestions?


Greatly put. Also it seems the community of people are split. Definitely not down the middle though. You got the people that don't like the system and are voicing their problems with it and then you have the ones actually doing the complaining about the people voicing their problems. It's simple. Don't read their threads once you start seeing them voice their problems. That are hundreds of other threads. To me you just want your own attention. I have no problem reading what people hate about the game and I won't bash them for it. It's what SE wants/NEEDS. They spent millions of dollars in man hours in developing the game. If they want to make all the money back that they spent and more then they HAVE to listen to what the community wants. Otherwise years of their lives will be gone.
#24 Aug 28 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
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So yes even the people with completely uneducated responses voice should be heard. I agree though that they shouldn't be blaming any specific person like you showed in a couple quotes from another thread. I don't care if Tanaka(sp?) hates foreigners. I don't care if he has a American that he locks in his closet and pulls him out every night to whip him brutally. I just care about the games success lol
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