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Choosing an HDTV that's good for gaming?Follow

#1 Aug 28 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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So I'm still shopping around for an HDTV that's good for gaming, though try as I might it's sometimes difficult to understand what specifications I should be looking for. In particular, I'm unclear on what specs determine the speed at which the signal from my PC will be displayed to the screen (to avoid lag between the two). Some TVs have a spec called 'Display Speed/Rate' with a number of milliseconds, which I interpret to be information I'm looking for. I understand that Refresh Rate can also play a small role in this, but I'm not sure how much. A better refresh rate should also reduce blurring during special effects and other fast motion, is my understanding.

Plasmas seem to be the safest bet... they have the best refresh rates, and my understanding is that the display is near-instant. And they also tend to be cheaper, so that's nice.

LCD and LED LCDs tend to be the worrisome ones. I'm not sure how "fast" is fast enough. Will I notice 5 milliseconds? 10? I also understand that many of these now have a game mode which sacrifices some image quality to increase the display speed. While I'll predominantly be using the TV for the PC (FFXIV/streaming video), I'll also be playing console games, some of them twitchier than XIV.

I'm looking at getting something in the 47-50" range if that matters.

I welcome any advice/insight, and thanks!
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#2 Aug 28 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
I would love to see information on this too, since I am not fully happy with this monitor I bought (though it was cheapish and large-ish) - so I have it in my mind that in the future I'll be looking at this option.
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#3 Aug 28 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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me as well, probably not for at least a year but my current HDTV that I use as my monitor get this really annoying flickering towards the top of my screen when playing starcraft 2 or guild wars, but ONLY those 2 games, XI and XIV I haven't seen it. Happened on my old computer and this computer, I stopped trying to fix it, nothing worked, though it's weird that it only does it in those 2 games.
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#4 Aug 28 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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My own personal opinion.. But projection tvs have always been better for me for PC... dont know why but it always seemed blurring when using the plasma/LCDs... of course I havent used a new LED tv.. that might be your best picture...
#5 Aug 28 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Can I ask how much you are looking to spend? LCDs are good for gaming, LEDs are better all around (no I have no proof of this, it's simply common opinion in my circle of friend/co-workers who are gamers)

All that aside, if you are looking to spend a pretty penny and be ready for the 3D movement that seems to be the future of gaming, May I suggest the Samsung Series 8. The 50" is going for $2299. Built in Ethernet port, 4 HDMI ports, 7,000,000: 1 contrast ratio.

It was written up in GameInformer this month, and while I normally don't put stock in what they go on about, it'll give you a nice read of what's to enjoy in it.
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#6 Aug 28 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Plasmas tend to burn any static image on to the screen. My girlfriend played FFXI on a 50" Samsung plasma and we had the send/receive image and the hp bars burned in for quite a while. It took a couple months for the burn in to completely vanish. Newer plasmas may be a bit better with burn in reduction.
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#7 Aug 28 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm curious. Does pc specs matter when choosing a larger monitor or TV? If so, you may want to include what your pc specs are.

I have a 19" el cheepo 1440x900 native monitor. The picture looked great with my set-up. I wheeled my pc over to my plasma, which is a 52" panasonic viera, and I felt like my pc was responding slower. It could have just been me though. That being said, it still looked fantastic (720 on both)!!

My specs are:

Windows 7 Ux64
965 @ 3.8
Hawk 5770 @900/1250
4gb 1333 ddr3
650 watt raidmax psu
Benchmark score: right around 4500 on low

Edit: My response was not meant to look like a hi-jacking, but after reading it I couldn't but notice that it does. Not my intention :)

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 8:58pm by jhariya
#8 Aug 28 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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samsung T240HD works perfectly for me even on fps games where there's really fast movement. No ghosting or anything and it got great reviews for a gaming monitor
#9 Aug 28 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
I have a 50" Samsung Plasma 720p, paid around $600-650.

I have minor image retention of hp bars and such after long gaming runs (2 hours plus) but it goes away after about an hour of normal tv watching.

This article has a lot of good information for those worried about burn-in.

PS...You can just turn on a movie if you do get image retention, don't bother buying a disc.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 9:25pm by Yabusame
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#10 Aug 28 2010 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
So I'm still shopping around for an HDTV that's good for gaming, though try as I might it's sometimes difficult to understand what specifications I should be looking for. In particular, I'm unclear on what specs determine the speed at which the signal from my PC will be displayed to the screen (to avoid lag between the two). Some TVs have a spec called 'Display Speed/Rate' with a number of milliseconds, which I interpret to be information I'm looking for. I understand that Refresh Rate can also play a small role in this, but I'm not sure how much. A better refresh rate should also reduce blurring during special effects and other fast motion, is my understanding.

Plasmas seem to be the safest bet... they have the best refresh rates, and my understanding is that the display is near-instant. And they also tend to be cheaper, so that's nice.

LCD and LED LCDs tend to be the worrisome ones. I'm not sure how "fast" is fast enough. Will I notice 5 milliseconds? 10? I also understand that many of these now have a game mode which sacrifices some image quality to increase the display speed. While I'll predominantly be using the TV for the PC (FFXIV/streaming video), I'll also be playing console games, some of them twitchier than XIV.

I'm looking at getting something in the 47-50" range if that matters.

I welcome any advice/insight, and thanks!


Samsung or Sony.

Also LCD is better for PC display than Plasma.

Repost time.

Lobivopis wrote:
Be aware that HDMI supports two ways of encoding color. RGB (which is what PC monitors use) and YCbCr (which is the color space used by compressed video formats)

It is important that you understand this because video cards will sometimes choose a less than optimal color space format when hooked up to an HDTV. You can usually force the pixel format in your video card's driver settings.

Explanation of YCbCr here

If you have to use YCbCr the use YCbCr 4:4:4 not YCbCr 4:2:2. 4:2:2 means that the color (CrBr) are half the resolution of the brightness (Y).


There will also (at least on ATI cards) be an option for "full range" and "studio range" when outputting RGB pixels

Full range means that brightness level RGB 0,0,0 = absolute black and RGB 255,255,255 = maximum white


Studio range means that absolute black = RGB 15,15,15 and maximum white = RGB 240,240,240

Ideally you want RGB full range. But you need to have your HDTV and your video card both set to use the same brightness range (i.e. full range or studio range). Most HDTV's will have an option for full range/studio range somewhere in the setup menus. (on Samsung TV's it is called "HDMI Black Level")

If you are using a DVI to HDMI cable then it will always be RGB full range.


Also, turn off *ALL* "image enhancement" image sharpening, dynamic contrast etc. when using an HDTV as a PC monitor. It will just degrade the image quality. There will usually be an option in your HDTV's setup called something like "Movie" or "Natural" that disables most of this. Then it's just a matter of setting image sharpening to 0%, disabling "dynamic contrast" "edge enhancement" etc.

What you want is to display exactly the image that your PC is sending to the TV with no changes.




Tools you can use to adjust your brightness/gamma. Please note if you have any edge "enhancement" or image sharpening these will not work right. (but you should have all those turned off anyway)

Lobivopsis wrote:

Looks like I'm going to have to pull out my gamma correction/adjustment links again.

First of all, if you are using an LCD monitor set your desktop to the native resolution of your display.

Now we adjust your black point and white saturation level.

Black point test:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/monitor_black.htm

White saturation test:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/white.php

Another black point test:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

Luminance sensitivity test:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/monitor_sensitivity.html



Get your black point and white saturation correctly adjusted and then you need to adjust the gamma curve to 2.2


http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#gammachart
http://www.photoscientia.co.uk/2point2.htm
http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/gamma/gamma.html
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php


Do NOT use "Game Mode" (this looks like crap)

"Image enhancement" is really "image de-enhancement" turn it all off.

Anything with the word "enhancement" or "dynamic" is garbage, for the love of God turn it off.

People that set their TV to "Vibrant" mode and then crank up the brightness to maximum make baby Jesus cry.


EDIT: There is currently a bug with ATI's drivers that cause the "full range" pixel format option to not work. (don't laugh Nvidia users your drivers don't even have an option for full range) If you use a DVI to HDMI cable then this won't affect you (because DVI is always RGB full range)

EDIT: You want to set your HDTV to display the image with no overscan. On Samsung TV's this is under the "Size" option and is called "Just Scan". Most HDTVs will have an equivalent setting to this.

EDIT: You really shouldn't have to adjust your gamma curve if you have the black point and white saturation set correctly. A screwed up gamma curve is usually a sign that you have the white saturation (the maximum white) set too high and clipping is occurring)

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 11:19pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#12 Aug 28 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm using a Sony bravia HDTV 56" (I think) and it runs the game great and looks good (without any tearing after turning V-sync...not that tearing was really an issue in FFXIV but it was for me in Crysis, now its fixed)...so I would suggest Sony but obviously they're on the expensive end.
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#13 Aug 28 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
This is what I've been playing on lately (outside of my Alienware 3D monitor). Besides my PS3 and X360, I use feed HDMI through my receiver to this to play all my PC games, online or offline. I haven't noticed any problems with lag, even with FPSs, so I don't think you have anything to worry about with that.

Also, though the link I gave was from Amazon, I've seen them listed for much cheaper elsewhere.
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#14 Aug 28 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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While I'm partial to Samsung, I can get nearly 50% off an LG TV. For example, I can get a 47" LED @240hz for $700. It's pretty hard to pass up.

So nobody has experienced any noticeable lag with LCD TVs? I'm not super concerned with image quality-- I just don't want to wind up in a situation like my brother where I invest in a nice TV that I can't even play certain games on because of the screen lag. My understanding is that this isn't as much an issue for a 1080p signal, but consoles that run games in 480/720p experience lag when they convert the signal.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Aug 28 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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Pick a model, go to www.avsforum.com and find the official thread on it. Someone has probably already asked the input lag question there, but if they haven't, post it. Lag specs aren't published by manufacturers, so you need to find someone who's tested it.

You probably won't go wrong with that LG.
#16 Aug 29 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh, my wording was misleading. I can get a lot of LG TVs for almost half off, not just that particular one. Though that particular one is looking pretty appealing.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Aug 29 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/tv-video/televisions/plasma-tv/PN50B850Y1FXZA/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail

This is what I'm using.

You said that you want use it for mainly gaming. So I would go with the LCD for cost reasons.

If you want to see Blu-Ray at max awesomeness, then you may want to spend more for plasma. The colors are very deep and vivid.
#18 Aug 29 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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From what I've seen, plasmas are cheaper than LCDs, but either way, the great offer I get on LGs is pretty limited in the big screen plasma selection. My only affordable choice is a 50" with internet connectivity for $900. And while internet connectivity is a nice feature, it loses a lot of appeal when the TV will be hooked up to a tower anyway.

I'll do some reading around about input lag. For the picture, I'll mainly decide based on how it looks in the store with respect to viewing angle.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Aug 29 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Nearly all 720p LCD HDTVs actually use 1360x768 panels. If you are going to get a 720p LCD set make sure it can actually receive a 1360x768 signal. Some 720p sets can only receive 720p or 1080p and then scale the image to fit 1360x768.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 8:58pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#20 Aug 29 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm only looking at 1080p TVs, but that's good to know.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 Aug 29 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are concerned about IR (image retention) I would say LCD is certainly the best bet. I personally went with a Samsung LCD strictly for the fact that I tend to play for looooooooong periods of time on occasion. However, if you are wanting the absolute best picture for the cheapest price, go for a Panasonic plasma. Aside from the discontinued Kuro plasmas that run about $5000 now, the panasonic are by far above and away the best picture you are going to get with the super fast refresh rates etc for 1/4 that price and are even much cheaper than most lcd. Honestly the pannys are very very close to the kuros and you will be hard pressed to find a difference in PQ. If you go that route i would certainly recommend a burn in program that you will need to run for about 200 hours before I would push XIV for hours upon hours though
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