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Lackluster jobs for a FF game?Follow

#1 Aug 30 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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What's your honest opinion? Hasn't FF always been about the cool, fantastical jobs in the games? Let's look at the SNES games for a minute.

-----FF4-----
Paladin
Dark Knight
Dragoon
Monk
Summoner
White Mage
Black Mage
Archer
Bard
Ninja
Sage

-----FF5----- (only listing new jobs)
Thief
Samurai
Berserker
Mystic Knight
Time Mage
Beastmaster
Chemist
Dancer
Mime

-----FF6----- (only listing new jobs)
Engineer
Gambler
Artist



I just feel like the classes this time around are so bland. They took away the unique classes (like bard, summoner, beastmaster, etc.) and the ones that remained, got generic renames (dragoon loses wyvern, becomes lancer. Warrior becomes Gladiator, Monk becomes Pugilist, Ranger becomes Archer, etc.)

Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to the game and to some classes, I just don't like how it doesn't feel like a final fantasy franchise job system. These job names could have been used by any MMORPG without the public even asking a single question.


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#2 Aug 30 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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I somewhat agree. The counterarguments would be:

1) There's will likely be expansions to add more.
2) Since you can create a character to be whatever you want it to be by mixing abilities, you can have whatever job you want.

But I still agree to an extent.
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#3 Aug 30 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Different approach is different. Still, i get what you are saying, but even all of those old classes sucked at lvl 1. I'd say a SMN with no avatars or spirits could be considered lackluster.
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#4 Aug 30 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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FFXIV is all about building your own class.

I'm gonna be a Pugilancer or Alchemarauder, dont you think they are fantastical?
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#5 Aug 30 2010 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Alchemarauder


How awesome would it be if Alchemist gave you an ability called "mix" which you can mix and craft things on the fly during a battle...that'd be awesome if each of the crafting classes had battle perks like that, it would be even more incentive to level them up. Mix and match items to craft an "X-potion" mid battle to cure yourself, or maybe a "bomb" to finish off the mob.
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#6 Aug 30 2010 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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I felt the same way at first. Then I saw that they were focusing on players being weaponmasters, instead of classes. While they are tying certain abilities and sets of abilities to weapons, for the most part we're left to customize our own. If you want to make a DRK, you play marauder with magic. Paladin would be a sword/mace class with heals. We're not getting pre-built stuff this time around.

I doubt we'll ever get to see those fancy classes added to the game, but we're going to get the tools to make those archetypes if we really want. At the same time, I think they'll feel forced, and likely underpowered compared to the classes we can make without using those old archetypes in mind.
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#7 Aug 30 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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Time for a breakdown.

Hugznkisses wrote:
What's your honest opinion? Hasn't FF always been about the cool, fantastical jobs in the games? Let's look at the SNES games for a minute.

-----FF4-----
Paladin
Dark Knight
Dragoon
Monk
Summoner
White Mage
Black Mage
Archer
Bard
Ninja
Sage


Paladin, Dark Knight, Dragoon and Summoner were pretty interesting and followed tradition throughout the FF universe, but Summoner was always a "panic button" type of class that doesn't mend well into the MMO universe at least FF wise, it was a pet job in XI that got little to no love from the community till Astral burning (aka exploiting what made SMN in FF..SMN.)

White Mage is nothing but a mage that uses curative abilities.

Black mage is nothing but a mage that uses dark arts (Elemental nukes/debuffs)

Bard is a supportive class that attacked with a harp and buffed, chances are we will see a class like this again but anything can sing and give boosted stats to a party, doesn't necessarily need to be a "Bard" it could be Minstrel for example.

Ninja is a weird class, since XI people blurred what a Ninja was in the FF universe because it played vastly different.

Archer of course is a ranged attacker..nothing more. So while it seems Archer/Ranger is in XIV it's a mixed bag of the older FF jobs abilities.

Hugznkisses wrote:


-----FF5----- (only listing new jobs)
Thief
Samurai
Berserker
Mystic Knight
Time Mage
Beastmaster
Chemist
Dancer
Mime

-----FF6----- (only listing new jobs)
Engineer
Gambler
Artist


Thief will likely come, but Pugilist you can always view as a mix between Monk/Thief, this is why you can't peg the classic names, because a lot of classes are mix bags of older FF classes. Also the "HA THIS GAME IS FFXI-2!" people would never shut up.

Berserker for example is basically warrior, which in XIV = Marauder.

Mime is hard to do in an MMO balance wise but a Blue Mage styled class would fit the bill.

Artist I assume = Pictomancer? That's another SMN type of class which means a general pet class with mixed evocation type of skills would fit the bill for many of these classes.

Chemist = Alchemist.

Time Mage used magic that was given to WHM and RDM throughout the series or just a general line of magic (Green Magic? I forget)

Also:

Prior to XI, Dragoons/Lancers never had a pet, they were just known for their jump ability in terms of uniqueness. So the classes themselves exist as a mix of many older FF jobs, but the if anything Paladin actually became Gladatior, not Warrior. If you wanted to you could actually "make" the classic jobs, e.g a Dagger Class could be given the Steal ability you learn from Pugilist and so forth.

So I say it still has the FF feel to the jobs, just the naming won't be the same because everything was mashed together and given a generalized name.
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#8 Aug 30 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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This is really a new and improved version of the sub job system. I FFXI, the SJ system was new, and really quite revolutionary. It opened a lot of doors for char development. In the end though, people ended up being restricted by their SJ's.
Now, with this new concept, every class is a main/SJ class, and people will no longer have to worry about being chained to /whm or /nin. There will still end up being abilities that you are expected to have, but you can still pretty much
shape your own char pretty easily.

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 12:09pm by Teneleven
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#9 Aug 30 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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The system actually reminds me alot of the FFIX system, where you can equip anything you've learned. Only we're not restricted by a main class only having access to certain things.
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#10 Aug 30 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXI started out slow as well, in terms of jobs.
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#11 Aug 30 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not a new system at all...

Quote:
The main feature of its gameplay was the revamped Job System (originally in a different form in Final Fantasy III and introduced in the original Final Fantasy), allowing all characters to potentially master up to 22 Jobs. The player starts out with no Job classes (they are defaulted as "Freelancer," a class which can be reverted to later on), and as they travel to new Crystal locations, they acquire new Jobs. A separate form of Experience, ABP, was created for the advancement of the characters' Job levels, while they continued to earn regular Experience Points. The system also introduced a streamlined method of "multi-classing," allowing each character to learn Job-specific abilities and carry one or two over when they changed their class. The Job System would disappear in the series for a short time, but would reappear in the Final Fantasy Tactics series, Final Fantasy XI, and Final Fantasy X-2.


From Final Fantasy V

And I don't see the point about complaining about the classes. These starting classes are a very nice base to expand on later. FFXI didn't have the classes from the start either.
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#12 Aug 30 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with what people have said so far... I guess there is more focus on creating your own class rather than following cookie cutter builds. That is okay.

I guess my next question is how long will it take to get new classes? How long did it take in FFXI?
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#13 Aug 30 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Hugznkisses wrote:
I agree with what people have said so far... I guess there is more focus on creating your own class rather than following cookie cutter builds. That is okay.

I guess my next question is how long will it take to get new classes? How long did it take in FFXI?


XI new jobs (with the exception of one of the first updates before zilart) came almost every expansion, which was about a year after initial release. CoP gave no new jobs..ToAU gaves new jobs which was 3 years after zilart release and WoTG gave new jobs which was a year after ToAU release iirc. So it depends on what XIV's expansion/update (they said new classes in updates) scheduling is.

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 10:02am by Theonehio
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#14 Aug 30 2010 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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Pugilist is seriously the worst name out of the new jobs. When I was fighting monsters in beta, I felt as though I should have been sporting a handle-bar mustache and strolled up to ask the mobs to a bout of fisticuffs.

I think SE had fun with a Thesaurus.
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#15 Aug 30 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Hugznkisses wrote:
I agree with what people have said so far... I guess there is more focus on creating your own class rather than following cookie cutter builds. That is okay.

I guess my next question is how long will it take to get new classes? How long did it take in FFXI?


XI new jobs (with the exception of one of the first updates before zilart) came almost every expansion, which was about a year after initial release. CoP gave no new jobs..ToAU gaves new jobs which was 3 years after zilart release and WoTG gave new jobs which was a year after ToAU release iirc. So it depends on what XIV's expansion/update (they said new classes in updates) scheduling is.

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 10:02am by Theonehio


I believe it has been stated that there will be new jobs in an early patch.
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#16 Aug 30 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought the same thing, but when FFXI came out the starting jobs were equally as lackluster if not more...

All the mages were based on a color: red,black,white
and the melee were: mnk,thf,warrior,

if those aren't the most lackluster and unimaginative classes of all time then i don't know what are.
#17 Aug 30 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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F: Right now there’s only two Discipline of Magic classes available. Will there be any more than these?
DK: We’d like players to enjoy these two classes for a while. The caster class system is still being tweaked. However, this doesn’t mean we’re going to wait for the release of an expansion to release the class; it’ll be out when the timing is right.

F: So you’re saying that there will be more Disciples of Magic?
DK: Yes. They might come in a patch, they might come in an expansion. We’re not sure yet.


http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=128236251358019452
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#18 Aug 30 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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The more I look at all the options to mix-n-match between the classes I think if they stay lackluster it's more because of the person using them, rather than the classes themselves. Like it's been mentioned there are probably other classes coming and potential advanced jobs that will help this, but even as it stands now, there's some really cool combinations waiting to be made.
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#19 Aug 30 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, in 14's job system there's more variety potential with all the choosing/mixing of abilities .
#20 Aug 30 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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The problem with me is they lack.. OOMPH right now. Yea I can make a gladiator with all kinds of "cool" abilities, but so can everyone else with every other class, the only thing making me a gladiator is the weapon in hand. The result is, individual classes really lack any impact, and hybrid classes lack anything truly defining.

I'm hoping at higher levels each class has more unique things that separate them from each other, so we know the difference between a conjurer and thaumaturge is more than just "one uses a cross and cone spells, other uses a staff and circle spells"
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#21 Aug 30 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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All the mages were based on a color: red,black,white
and the melee were: mnk,thf,warrior,

if those aren't the most lackluster and unimaginative classes of all time then i don't know what are.


You can say the names are lackluster but all of said classes play completely different, all have a unique roll and special spells/skills that make them THEM. I don't feel I'm deep enough into XIV to make any kind of real judgement yet, but I hope the difference between a gladiator and a lancer is more than the weapon in hand.

We'll see how it goes with XIV though, the system is so fresh its hard to make an accurate comment on it.
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#22 Aug 30 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Silverwyrm wrote:
The problem with me is they lack.. OOMPH right now. Yea I can make a gladiator with all kinds of "cool" abilities, but so can everyone else with every other class, the only thing making me a gladiator is the weapon in hand. The result is, individual classes really lack any impact, and hybrid classes lack anything truly defining.

I'm hoping at higher levels each class has more unique things that separate them from each other, so we know the difference between a conjurer and thaumaturge is more than just "one uses a cross and cone spells, other uses a staff and circle spells"


Maybe that's part of the point of the system. Really good combinations will be unique at first, but of course they'll be copied eventually and then you have a lot of people with the same setup. How do I stand out? Well, since things are more involved you stand out by being the best at using those abilities. Your gameplay adds to the impact and defines that setup...it doesn't define you. I think that's pretty cool...

The main thing that distinguishes between classes is really just the weapon in hand....but what makes that lancer over there seem so much cooler than this lancer here? There's the interesting part...
You decide the unique role your lancer has, the game doesn't decide it for you...


Edited, Aug 30th 2010 5:08pm by TwistedOwl
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#23 Aug 30 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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I agree that even most weapons/classes abilities seem kinda weak right now, I'm sure we're seeing whats equivalent to level 25s worth of abilities in FFXI terms. Outside of Lancer, nothings really exciting me, with the exception of some really powerful abilities in each class (second wind, Blindside, bloodbath). I think we're going to need to see some rebalancing of skills, or more details on some ideas. I'd love to know more about Marauder's standing still buff, and pugilist's stances.
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#24 Aug 30 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm hoping at higher levels each class has more unique things that separate them from each other, so we know the difference between a conjurer and thaumaturge is more than just "one uses a cross and cone spells, other uses a staff and circle spells"


This is my biggest concern with the current system.

As a Lancer, I don't want to be held to the expectations of having the same role as a Maurader or any other class combination. If I am, then there is no point to having a class system to begin with. Sure, having the ability to mix and match is a definite plus for character development, but almost to the point of being so general due to the extensiveness of the system.

I am very optimistic for the future of the class system, however. This leaves much room for SE to define and refine the classes to give them each their own special feel while possessing immense flexibility.
#25 Aug 30 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Not all Final Fantasy games have jobs like listed in the OP. Some did, such as 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, and 11. Others had characters that had certain traits from these jobs, but were combinations of the jobs without specific job names, such as 7, 8 and 12 and allowed the player to create their own combination of old jobs. For example, in those games you could teach your character who uses hand-to-hand black magic or your sword-wielder summoning magic. The end result was just your character with no specific job. I think 14 is taking an approach more like those games listed later.
#26 Aug 30 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Teneleven wrote:
Different approach is different. Still, i get what you are saying, but even all of those old classes sucked at lvl 1. I'd say a SMN with no avatars or spirits could be considered lackluster.


I wish people would stop posting stuff like "Different approach is different", "forum troll is a troll", "obvious observation is obvious", etc...

I find the whole thing very 2008 and used. Like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry and George do 'the voice', eventually it's just played out. I find it very pretentious.
#27 Aug 30 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
Honestly there are tons of good skills even at low levels and the fact that native skills work better on their native class means that there really is still a flavour for each class. Like as a thaum. I am not going to equip stoneskin in a party if we have a conjurer in the pty already because on conjurer stoneskin is AOE - on me it is self-target. So main class is still going to matter a lot. I may, however use blood rite on a conjurer because even if it is a bit nerfed from THM it is still often worth it to dump an extra nuke spell in favour of increased spell power.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#28 Aug 30 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Different approach is different. Still, i get what you are saying, but even all of those old classes sucked at lvl 1. I'd say a SMN with no avatars or spirits could be considered lackluster.


I wish people would stop posting stuff like "Different approach is different", "forum troll is a troll", "obvious observation is obvious", etc...

I find the whole thing very 2008 and used. Like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry and George do 'the voice', eventually it's just played out. I find it very pretentious.


In this case it makes a good point though. A lot of the negativity about the new systems comes from being used to the same old ways. Here you have a new, interesting system with loads of room for creativity, but mostly what you hear is complaints that it's not like the old ways. Which is totally the opposite of what people were loving & saying about the game a month ago. "XIV's a new game, don't judge it yet! I like that it's gonna be different!"....to...."Why can't it be more like XI? I don't like where this is going!"

Maybe people need some kind of rehab from the old ways to see the good in it...
We shall call that rehab center....Open Beta...

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 5:42pm by TwistedOwl
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#29 Aug 30 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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chocobo knight anyone?! >_>
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#30 Aug 30 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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i'm really hoping for a pet job in the first expansion :x.
#31 Aug 30 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Default
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i would put this new system above 11's. 11 was very rigid. a melee DD was a melee DD was a melee DD. you subbed X or you subbed Y thats it. everyone was the same in endgame(down to appearance). you seem to get more customization out of 14's system(even down to armor dyes)
#32 Aug 30 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
If they had called Thaumaturge Black Mage, i think people would be much quicker to cookie cutter it and say it needs to fill a particular role. On the other hand, nobody has a preconception of what a thaumaturge should be, so they're going to try much more interesting combinations of class skills to build their own idea of what they want to do.

I think that's why they purposely tried to pick class names with little preconception instead of the standard popular FFXI class names. Then, you can build the classes if you want out of all these skills to choose from and call yourself that.
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#33 Aug 30 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pugilist is seriously the worst name out of the new jobs. When I was fighting monsters in beta, I felt as though I should have been sporting a handle-bar mustache and strolled up to ask the mobs to a bout of fisticuffs.

I think SE had fun with a Thesaurus.


I found a rare image of a Pugilist in AF.

Screenshot


I think the pants add +2 Dexterity (DEX), +3 Fisticuffs (FST), and +1 Wedgie (WEG).

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 6:37pm by Eske
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#34 Aug 30 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I found a rare image of a Pugilist in AF.


what does the mustache add :x
#35 Aug 30 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:
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I found a rare image of a Pugilist in AF.


what does the mustache add :x


+10 ability to drive a steamboat (STB), if I recall correctly.
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#36 Aug 30 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
Quote:
I found a rare image of a Pugilist in AF.


what does the mustache add :x


+10 ability to drive a steamboat (STB), if I recall correctly.


Only with the Crumb Retainer +1.

The NQ only gives 5.
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