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Gil & finding the road to profit!Follow

#1 Aug 31 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I left World of Warcraft recently and have always been in love with the Final Fantasy "series". A big problem was not having enough gold for upgrades, gems, enchantments, etc. My question for those who have played the Beta's... Will Gil be so hardly relied upon like gold was in WoW? Or will you just require enough that you can get from killing monsters and completing quests?

I ask this because with any game that has a major market economy, controlling it can be a proftiable thing. I am the type of person that will start off trying to make money while others are learning how to wield a sword.

If it will be a big role in the game, then what are your thoughts on obtaining it, at a high rate?

Any speculation is welcome and encouraged!

-Rel
#2 Aug 31 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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There is diminishing returns on everything, so if you're looking to maximize you will need to do everything. As with any MMO, the demand in the market determines value. Since there is no economy and everyone starts at the same spot, likely there will be a large number of players all competing for the exact same resources, which will of course diminish over time.
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#3 Aug 31 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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lol if you had a hard time making gold in WoW, you're most likely going to have a hard time making gil in FFXIV - from beta, if its any indication, it seems to be an easier road than FFXI when it comes to making money but I doubt it'll be too much easier at the end of the day.
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#4 Aug 31 2010 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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ITT:

1. Gil
2. ???
3. Profit!
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#5 Aug 31 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with the WoW gold was much easier than XI sentiment, it felt like Blizzard was giving me a trust fund compared to what I had to do to be self-sufficient in XI.

But to your real question its hard to tell in the infancy of an economy what is gonna be a great money maker and what isn't. For instance, do guildleves give gear or just monetary rewards? If they give gear, you likely aren't gonna make a killing selling low level armor and weapons, unless that gear is markedly worse than something you can make. Generally I have found it's always safer to go the consumables route with my crafting, people are always gonna run out of Ammo,casting reagents etc.
While your profit per transaction is probably gonna be lower on the consumable route you should have a guaranteed consistent market, unless of course SE has made consumables readily available from NPC vendors than scratch that idea.

Generally though for me I always try to find a niche and then exploit it, try to remain flexible sometimes areas of the market that were once lucrative dry up after a patch changes how X item works. Working and trying to exploit the economy is almost a game in itself and its one of the facets of a MMORPG that I really enjoy.
#6 Aug 31 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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The only thing I can say about money gil and FFXIV, it's that starting from the beginning give you a moderate advantage over those who come later.

For example in FFXI when the time of the big inflation (Xmas 2005) some people walked away rich enough to found relics and dynamis LS's, most of them were 75 before the inflation, hence they could spend make gil from a reliable source.

While it's true that glitches and bots in gardening, finish and what not contribute to some of those fortunes, the fact is that many opportunities will arise during the time the game is online, being there from the begging will give you a 100% chance to take advantage of them.

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#7 Aug 31 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
Honestly I wouldn't compare it to WoW at all, but even so. Gold was a big thing in WoW, even if you raided you still needed gold to be at your peak. Repairs, reagents, consumables, all of it requires gold at some point. Even if you leveled a craft and gathering profession, you still spent gold. Even you gathered your own mats for pots, you spent the time herbing you could've been doing dailies or something of the like. From what I've see in XIV, it will even be more dependent on money than WoW. There are repairs, even if some leves reward gear, it might not be optimal for your class(gathering skill gloves when you're playing a disciple of war) so you will be most likely relying on crafters for gear, with cooking and alchemy I'm sure there are going to be consumables. If you're an archer, you need arrows so there's reagents. At the moment XIV is a much more hardcore game compared to WoW.

So if you were having issues making money with WoW, you either had the wrong profession (Looking at you engineering) or you had no idea how to read a market. Honestly, I don't see you surviving XIV's economy if you had problems in WoW. There will be people who will sell non HQ items for a loss to kill any idea of breaking even on a normal craft. There will be price wars between crafters and possibly between crafters and rmt if they manage to establish a foothold. As an avid crafter, all I can say is it will be glorious. So if you plan to 'control' the economy, I wish you luck because there are going to be people looking to ruin you.
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#8 Aug 31 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
The first thing that people need to realize about currency is that currency that's given to you by the game only matters to the extent that there's some thing to spend it on.

So, although the initial temptation is to say that gil is "easier" to make in FF14, because guild leves reward thousands of gil per completion, what you have to remember is that the raw quantity of gil is meaningless without some context. Having 20 million gil might seem like a lot unless every one else also has 20 million gil, then it's just average, and no better than if you and every one else had 1 million gil instead. After all, if every one has a lot of gil, then there will be a lot of gil "chasing" each player supplied item in the game, and prices will be very high.

In fact, the only reason that gil has any value at all is because it is taken out of the economy by NPCs. Since NPC prices will tend to be static and PC prices will tend to fluctuate with the supply of gil, it is the cost of NPC services that creates a value for gil in the first place.

So we need to wait and see what gil can actually be spent on before we can comment on the real ease of obtaining it. Imagine that a trip on an air ship costs 100,000 gil per trip, and leves continue to reward only a few thousand gil per completion. Suddenly, the cost of an air ship ride is sky high, the value of gil is incredibly low, and gil is "hard" to make (that is, it's hard to get enough gil to buy the things whose price does not fluctuate).

In terms of gaining a relative advantage in wealth (having 100 million when every one else has 20 million) there's not much of a secret to it. Figure out what other people want, so you know what they'll pay the most for. Provide those things for them. Spend your money on increasing your ability to provide the things that people want, rather than on trinkets that you don't really need. Basically, make as much money as possible while spending the least. What do people want? They'll want whatever makes them most effective, whether that be armor, weapons, food and drink, potions, ammunition, or any thing else.

Consumables have always been a good way to make money in any MMO, because the market will always exist, unlike the market for lasting goods which can become glutted over time. Consumables will rarely make you rich quick, because no one will use consumables that they don't think they can replace, which means they can't be too expensive. And yet, as long as they are being consumed, there will always be a demand. The market may have a glut or a shortage today, but as people move in and out of the market, it will equalize. Consumables make nice steady income over time.

Weapons, armor and other permanent equipment tend to be boom or bust. One of the quickest ways to get wealthy in any MMO is to find a good that is in high demand, quickly obtain the exclusive ability to provide that good while the market is hot and the cost of entry is high, and crank out as many of that good as you can sell for a high price. As soon as more than a handful of other people can provide the same enduring goods that you can, the market will generally yield to competition (unless every one can be convinced to join a cartel). From that point on, the profit for such items will tend to decrease relative to the cost of components. One can still make good money crafting a good, but the ability to do so will more often be tied to the ability to obtain ingredients at a better price than the competition.

Another way to make money is by providing raw materials to crafters. Being a gatherer has down sides, because you are ultimately tied to the demand of crafters. If no one wants what you have to provide, or they are able to effectively force a small price upon your good, you have little recourse but to accept their price or simply hold onto your goods. As such you are at the mercy of the whims or crafters and the market at large. On the plus side, by gathering, you risk very little except your time. You do not have to make any tricky decisions about how many raw materials to stockpile or when to purchase them for a good price. You simply head into the wild and gather the materials for others, and you make what the market will bear. Even if you make a disappointing amount for your efforts, you will never actually take a monetary loss. This makes gathering an even safer endeavor than crafting consumables, though often times less reliable.

There are of course many other methods to make money. You can simply kill enemies and sell what loot you find, often called "farming." You can play the market itself, producing nothing, but buying items that are being sold below their market value and re selling them at a more "fair" price (and pocketing the difference as your fee). This is probably the riskiest method in any game for making money, but it's also potentially the quickest way to get rich, if you're good at it. Being good requires a LOT of effort and a strong understanding of the marketplace, as well as a relatively stable economy.

The bottom line, no matter what strategy you pursue, is to know your goals, have a plan to achieve them, and keep your eyes on the prize. Very few people have ever gotten or stayed rich, in real life, or in an MMO, unless they made it a priority.



Edited, Aug 31st 2010 10:13pm by KarlHungis
#9 Aug 31 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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OniElvaan wrote:
So if you plan to 'control' the economy, I wish you luck because there are going to be people looking to ruin you.


So true. I remember in ffxi when certain groups of crafters on a server and would just decide to randomly ruin the price of certain items just because they could. It was amazing how many powerful people there were in that game ready to slit your throat if you dare to mess with their corner of the market. Can't wait for that in FFXIV. >.>
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#10 Aug 31 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Comprehensive and well written, Karl. Rate up. I specifically would be forced to impress on people the need for NPC removal of gil from the game to remove 'old man' inflation. If you get gil for every damned thing you sneeze on, even if it's a little bit, and there are NO large chunks of gil removal built into the game for desired items (think anime refills once you've blown your teleportation storage out), over time the inflation will outright obliterate what any player could reasonably make from the npc world.

Example: In Bastok, when I first joined, the established market for beehive chips, something a level 3+ could drop, was ~25k/stack on my server. 12 of 'em. In comparison to the time it took to farm them, I could do around 12 low end npc quests... and net ~2k gil. The 'starter armors' being sold were primarily HQ's, because who wants to buy generic rags when they've got gil in an established market... and cost around 5k/each. The local NPC armor sales were trash.

Hopefully SE remembers the drastic result that their markets ended up in last time and work to build more gil sinks into regular play, even if it's high level play.
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#11 Aug 31 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you all for the quick replies! I guess I should have taken a bit more time to state more clearly what I was trying to say. In no way was I referring FFXIV to WoW because they do not equal or mimic each other at ALL. I just wanted to refer into the currency aspect, as well as professions. It seems its really too early to tell if a Fisher will make more money vs a Blacksmith, and so on and so forth.

Also, I guess the word "controlling" was the wrong word to use as no one person can really control the market of a good or several goods because one person can change that because they feel like messing up someones gain.

When I said "A big problem was not having enough gold for upgrades, gems, enchantments, etc." I honestly didn't mean myself, should have taken more time to explain.

@desmar, when you say diminishing returns, you mean... time it takes to make or create something till you can make it again?

@SolidMack, never had a hard time with gold in WoW, just wasn't stated clearly, :/

@kenage, I do agree that those who come first will have a better advantage and is the main reason why I'm making this post today. Knowing what others need before they need it will probably serve a great deal in making gil

@Karl, Thanks, that was some well learned information (some new, some old) and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out for me and for others.

As some of you have said, I do hope that there are Gil sinks and large ones enough to keep whatever market there is stable enough so that 1,000 gil and 100,000 gil are not that big of a difference.

Thanks to everyone who replied, in a negative or positive fashion :), all of your opinions were greatly appreciated.

Also, being the type of person I am, I plan on having every profession / job and being very good at it, with time of course. Any comments on what you plan to do and why is welcome!
#12 Aug 31 2010 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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Along with the surplus experience, there has been a noticeable decrease in the returns from gathering professions. Like in the first hour you get like 10 ores per hour from a mine. Eventually that amount will decrease, but only relative to you. Others that are just starting out would get the full amount, relative to their skill.

So to optimize in exclusively making money, you would have to maximize your returns, and when they begin to diminish, switch professions or even classes. You'll also want to complete leves as these have a 48 hour cooldown on them and generate money.
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#13 Sep 01 2010 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmm... was this type of diminishing returns system implemented in FFXI? (I never played it) It seems sort of weird to me that they would do this, but I'm guessing they are trying to create a wide diversity among players, which is a good thing and will help in the end game. I guess it wont be too bad, considering I wont be playing 8 hours straight, but in a weeks time I'm sure I could hit the cap on a couple things.

Still waiting on the Beta to download, will be able to input my own information when I can actually play!
#14 Sep 01 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Diminishing returns on gathering things...so they want to control how much money you can essentially make also. If im reading this correctly that is. I just don't understand where this game is going such a huge title now with all this crap being implemented. It feels like the past couple years waiting on this is starting to look like the biggest waste of time ever. /sigh
#15 Sep 01 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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Reladin wrote:
Hmm... was this type of diminishing returns system implemented in FFXI?


What he means is you can buy:
Endgame Sword, does 100 damage, easy to get and costs 1000 monies
Sharp Endgame Sword, does 102 damage, fairly difficult to get and costs 10000 monies
Really Sharp Endgame Sword, does 105 damage, extremely rare and costs 50000 monies

Really Sharp Endgame Sword is better than Endgame Sword by 5%, yet costs 50 times as much. There are those who will consider this a good investment, and those who will consider it a waste of money. Thats what he means by diminishing returns in these contexts, the money required goes up rapidly while the size of the upgrade provided goes up only very slightly.

So in WoW terms (this isnt perfect just an example, aint played in ages!) you can have a blue gem that gives you +18 strength and costs 20g on AH, and an epic gem that gives +20 strength that costs 200g on the AH. You're paying ten times the cost for only 10% increase.

Edited, Sep 1st 2010 10:21am by Kordain
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#16 Sep 01 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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This is all speculation but maybe, just MAYBE on down the road, they may increase the time between returns? Remove them? Getting my hopes up too high...

I guess though with all the professions and gil making opportunities, if you line them all up and go down the line by the time you get back to the beginning they will have reset, or so I hope.
#17 Sep 01 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You're thinking too much like a WoW player :)


Heh, yeah I guess I am... when you play an MMO for 4 years, you tend to compare it to other MMO's unfortunately. I am just so excited in the difference and style of game play.... cant wait!

Quote:
Endgame Sword, does 100 damage, easy to get and costs 1000 monies
Sharp Endgame Sword, does 102 damage, fairly difficult to get and costs 10000 monies
Really Sharp Endgame Sword, does 105 damage, extremely rare and costs 50000 monies


Wouldn't that be just what's known as a sink? And not diminishing returns? Are you referring to a NPC that you would buy this from?
#18 Sep 01 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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Reladin wrote:

Wouldn't that be just what's known as a sink? And not diminishing returns? Are you referring to a NPC that you would buy this from?


Doesnt matter if its from an NPC, a PC crafter, the AH, or where ever. If you are forking over cash for goods, you are seeing a diminishing return for your money spent. If you didnt, you'd expect for twice the value you'd get twice the sword.
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#19 Sep 01 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
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he was talking about gathering materials after an certain amount of time you start to get LESS because of diminishing returns. Meaning you can only gather materials for that select amount of time before you get little to nothing which is just ridiculous. I hope SE gets there head of there *** and realize this will make them lose a TON of money.
#20 Sep 01 2010 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Ahh, I wasn't thinking of diminishing returns in that sense, thanks for informing me of it that way.

Kordain wrote:
Doesnt matter if its from an NPC, a PC crafter, the AH, or where ever.


If you buy an item from an NPC the monies spent on that item are literally taken out of the economy, if its bought from another player, its just circulating, correct?

In every game there is always going to be diminishing returns on an items especially higher quality items. If you have a chest piece that has 100 + Sta, and the best item within that same slot in the game has +107 Sta, you better bet your *** your going to have to pay to get that extra 7 Sta. Thats not the type of returns I was mentioning, but you are in fact right about that.

When you hit that 8 hour or w.e cap that you gain no exp anymore, can you still, within your craft, continue to make items, or does it stop as well? Because even if you gain no exp, you can still pump out the items you have already learned to make and continue to make gil?
#21 Sep 01 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Woobz wrote:
he was talking about gathering materials after an certain amount of time you start to get LESS because of diminishing returns.


Yeah, that is one aspect to which I was trying to get an answer on. If what you say is true, that is really going to hurt the game. Although if it has a timer like combat experience, so say after 8 hours it starts to diminish, I dont think it would be a huge problem since not many casual/even hardcore will play 8 hours straight, gathering herbs lol.
#22 Sep 01 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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thats 8 hours for 1 week until it resets... im not sure on if you can still make items and such im assuming you can but if you can only gather so many materials its going to limit you anyways. I read somewhere earlier that MOST armor and weapons will be crafted which means a limit on items you can gather and make... makes no sense what so freaken ever. Ill try to find where i read that but either way this surplus is going to ruin the game. thats just in my opinion honestly.

side note - many players want to just play crafting without leveling any other classes for a while. So i can see 8 hours getting blown through in no time then you have to wait to level that again until next weeks reset... enough said

Edited, Sep 1st 2010 10:55am by Woobz
#23 Sep 01 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Default
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i kinda want gil to be hard to get in FFXIV too lol you were famous in your server when u paid crazy amount for a piece of armor , i know i paid 21mil gil for an astral signa ( which took me 3month to gain working my *** off) so all my hard work paid off at the end and it felt great


im already have some of my hustler plans for FFXIV lol
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#24 Sep 01 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Default
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i don't mind it being difficult to make gil and buy high end armor's i think its better makes it feel you like you actually accomplish something and not just have it given to you. I love seeing people run around and be like wow... you just know he has been threw **** to get that stuff and has earned it. I miss those feelings in any of these recent mmo's its been sad in the mmo for a while now. I personally hope SE takes a step back and see's things they are turning a blind eye two and do what they do right. I just don't want to have to play on SE time. Side thought if its so easy to get max lvl why would you hinder leveling when it takes hardcore gamers 2 weeks to get it and casual 5 weeks oh my big difference you know just means hardcore players can make gear and stuff and the price's will drop with the big increase in armor for the casual players that they can get cheaper gear etc. Seen this happen so many times in so many titles. Just fix it SE please.
#25 Sep 01 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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My experience with games at launch has been that building up any savings is a poor use of wealth. Buy equipment to help leving or materials to skill crafts. Or use that money for consumables needed to help with exploration. This is especially true in any game where gear is not BoE.
#26 Sep 01 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I think, as with alot of MMO's, the money will be found in player to player transactions. I havent played 14 yet, will tonight. But i have played FFXI for, years, and wow for a little over a year so im pretty familiar with both. As for making gil in final fantasy 11, its all about either crafting or farming mats for the crafters. Thats where your going to get your big bucks. Based off how 14 is looking, im thinking there will be more money in farming for the crafters, due to the initial rush of players starting the game that "OMG I WANA DO GOLDSMITHING". So theres probably money in farming, as for crafting, not sure on which one will put out alot of money, no one knows.

As for ways to make money using the game story line and the crystals and such, im sure you can make a few coins there but in most MMO the big bucks are in supply/demand on AH player to player transactions, not "Go here do quest, get 1k gil". But i could be way wrong, we will see.
#27 Sep 01 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Question for Karl since your response was so well thought out.

Without an AH, I'm at a loss as to how to set prices. Should this piece of armor sell for 10k or 5k? Without browsing all the retainers, is there any other way to know?

Thanks!
#28 Sep 01 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
LalafellYahwey wrote:
Question for Karl since your response was so well thought out.

Without an AH, I'm at a loss as to how to set prices. Should this piece of armor sell for 10k or 5k? Without browsing all the retainers, is there any other way to know?

Thanks!


what I did was put it on for what I thought was a fair price. If it sold in 1 minute, the next one I put on I increased the price. If it sold in 1 minute, the next one I put on I increased the price.

Basically since you can only have 10 items on your bazaar at once, you want to find a balance between how long something clutters your bazaar and how much you get for it. For myself I pretty much purposely undersold things because I was still making a good profit and I was having a quick turnaround.
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#29 Sep 01 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm, did you station yourself in a highly traffic area, like the gates or the camps? Or did you just sell all this while running around?

Thanks!

#30 Sep 01 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
LalafellYahwey wrote:
Hmm, did you station yourself in a highly traffic area, like the gates or the camps? Or did you just sell all this while running around?

Thanks!



I just put it on my bazaar wherever... but when I went afk I would hang out by the aetheryte
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#31 Sep 01 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks! I'll try that.

I wish the Zam item DB was live again, that way I can compare stats on various gear to find out what people would want the most.
#32 Sep 01 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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can always use your retainer.
#33 Sep 01 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
LalafellYahwey wrote:
Question for Karl since your response was so well thought out.

Without an AH, I'm at a loss as to how to set prices. Should this piece of armor sell for 10k or 5k? Without browsing all the retainers, is there any other way to know?

Thanks!


Without an AH, it's going to be very hard to determine a market price. What this means if you're selling is that you'll probably get more for your goods if you sell them in a prime location. You may not even want to sell finished goods on a retainer if you can instead remain logged in with a bazaar set up in a high traffic area such as an aetheryte camp or a main traffic area within a major city. If you're buying, you may need to dig through a lot of retainers in the market wards or just try to come to an arrangement with gatherers on a set price for their goods.

Keep in mind that until S-E puts in some money sinks, the price of every thing will keep going up and gil will have very little real value. Early on it's probably best to spend money as you get it to buy equipment or materials that will help you level your combat or crafting abilities.
#34 Sep 01 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Basically since you can only have 10 items on your bazaar at once


waaaaaah? yay restrictions.

so there is no auction house AND we have less room in our bazaar?
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#35 Sep 01 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
Basically since you can only have 10 items on your bazaar at once


waaaaaah? yay restrictions.

so there is no auction house AND we have less room in our bazaar?


They REALLY want you to use retainers to buy and sell. It's just that retainers currently suck.
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