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will the economy fail?Follow

#1 Sep 03 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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So far i haven't seen any new gear, crafting is slow and laggy, the marketplace is slow and laggy. Theres no AH or way to determine prices or supply and demand without days of trial and error. there are no wind crystals like anywhere at the start.....
how did this work out in closed beta?
It seems like an overly complex system that will only lead to problems.
Do they intend to make an auctionhouse?

Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 3:42pm by Azurymber
#2 Sep 03 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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As my thread below suggests, I totally agree on the wind shard thing... Stopping me from leveling craft completely, and can't find a decent source besides 2-4 per hour of mining or random killing..
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#3 Sep 03 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Fail" seems like the wrong word. It's more like there won't be an economy.

At the moment, I won't even go into the market wards. You could dig around in there for two hours and not find one example of what you're looking for, much less at the right price. And as much as I enjoy earning money in games, I simply won't touch crafting or gathering classes in any serious way until there's a viable way to buy and sell goods. All of my dealings are with NPC vendors, which obviously makes things pretty limited. I imagine most people are doing the same.

Quote:
Do they intend to make an auctionhouse?

I don't recall the exact interview, but it sounds like the answer is "probably." But they're not in any rush to do it. It likely won't even be in the game at launch, which is pretty shocking to me.
#4 Sep 03 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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This is where the "Company" aspect of the game comes in. Your Company will develop into its own economy with gatherers, crafters, and farmers (fighters). I forsee 3 or 4 big companies developing on each server and competing with each other. So not only will we have an individual aspect of the game, we'll have economic warfare, too... (That's just my guess).
#5 Sep 03 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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This is the best way for the economy to develop in my opinion. Since the world is COMPLETELY new, it will take time for any type of supply to build up. And people who out level the supply will be fighting against the grain the whole time. Also, this is still a beta, and there is still content locked. I am sure we will get a better idea of things by December:).
#6 Sep 03 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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if theres no ah at launch i have a feeling the game will flop. Mainly because no one wants to play a game where they use lvl 1 gear the entire time.

ffxi was so simple. to level crafting you needed to start with crystals (eassy to get) and basic mats from the SIMPLE surrounding areas. this game has like 100 diff items coming from each initial area. its a bit rediculous.

I think SE actually thinks that some people will like -only- be crafters and not really level a job....
#7 Sep 03 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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ohh im a bit confused. can someone explain what companies are or link me to an explanation of them?
#8 Sep 03 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Azurymber wrote:
there are no wind crystals like anywhere at the start.....


In closed beta in Limsa I got lots of wind shards. I don't know if it is just that ul'dah and gridania don't have any really available at the level I'm at... but it is frustrating because I want to goldcraft and ya know the goldcrafting guild is IN UL'DAH - so why can't I get a basic frigging ingredient of pretty much every low level goldcraft recipe. Fail.

Otherwise the game is good. I am going to try going to Limsa to look for wind shards
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#9 Sep 03 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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From what I understand companies are like guilds, in the true sense of the word, while LS's are going to be for social and organizing missions/events.

Dunno how this will all play out.
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#10 Sep 03 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I was windering about the economy, myself. As a non-crafter, my question to crafters would be.... If the game releases with the system of crafting and how the selling/buying/trading of manufactured products stands now. How soon would items be readily availaible to the masses and at what cost?

I understand that prices will vary from player to player. But I would hate to see the overpricing of items that plagued my experiences. Now, I understand prices only reflect what people are willing to pay for.
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#11 Sep 03 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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I think SE was so paranoid about RMT that they axed the AH... I see it coming back, but I also see them greatly improving the retainer system too, either way I think it's going to get fixed for the better. I don't see the current system, if it's even implemented correctly, staying for too long.
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#12 Sep 03 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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NecoSino wrote:
This is where the "Company" aspect of the game comes in. Your Company will develop into its own economy with gatherers, crafters, and farmers (fighters).

That part of your post more or less encompasses what I was going to say, that being the economy will be what the players make of it.
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#13 Sep 03 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
Anaris85 wrote:
I was windering about the economy, myself. As a non-crafter, my question to crafters would be.... If the game releases with the system of crafting and how the selling/buying/trading of manufactured products stands now. How soon would items be readily availaible to the masses and at what cost?

I understand that prices will vary from player to player. But I would hate to see the overpricing of items that plagued my experiences. Now, I understand prices only reflect what people are willing to pay for.


I'd say you better make friends with crafters or learn to craft if you don't want to pay through the nose for things to begin with. Fact is at the beginning especially the prices for even basic stuff is going to be sky high. As someone who plans to dabble in crafting I plan to charge less than some folks but I am definitely going to try to make a good profit on things. However I will give deals or do trades with my friends in game.

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#14 Sep 03 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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well heres an economic analysis:

in order to reach equilibrium (think average auction house price), people will 'guess' what prices to sell goods at. Lets use wind crystals as a current example:

I get 10 wind crystals and know they are rare so i sell at 500gil each.
They sell in 30min
Therefore i know theres high demand (ppl want them) so next time i try at 2000gil
they don't sell for 40 hours
so next time i sell for 1000 gil
and they sell in a few hours.
I then check other ppl and notice they are all selling them for around 1000
i continue to sell for 1000 untill i notice them selling fast again.
i check around me and no ones selling them so i up the price...
etc....

its a stupid system compared to the Auction House which creates a clear and clean economy
#15 Sep 03 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
I'd say you better make friends with crafters or learn to craft if you don't want to pay through the nose for things to begin with. Fact is at the beginning especially the prices for even basic stuff is going to be sky high. As someone who plans to dabble in crafting I plan to charge less than some folks but I am definitely going to try to make a good profit on things. However I will give deals or do trades with my friends in game.


You and your friend would just form a company then. Some would gather, some would produce, and the surplus would be sold. This is what I'm really looking forward to developing upon release and why I think the AH system won't be necessary.
#16 Sep 03 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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People need to stop making these threads, this is the second time today I've had to post this:
Quote:
Regarding auctionhouses:

Regarding Final Fantasy XIV and the market system is something we would like to consider the equivalent to the auction house we had in Final Fantasy XI. Only that you'll also be able to fix your equipment and things like that. It is something we really want people to enjoy. Also after the release of the game we will see how it goes and for example find out what kind of search options players will want and need and improve the situation. We don't really want to introduce the auctionhouse from the beginning because that is going to determine the economy system. So we want to improve it slowly and adjust it accordingly.


Source: http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11066-gamescom-2010-coverage/
#17 Sep 03 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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I like it how it is right now TBH. The only real worry I have is finding gear, but TBH I'd also rather not worry about making money or any of that just to be competitive. I like the atmosphere in the game right now where there's no real pressure to get this much money to buy this much gear or to level a craft for cash. I can go out and fight stuff like I want to do, not play Final Economics 14. Which was one of my main gripes about FFXI besides the constant LFG sessions, haha

I don't really have anything against crafters and whatnot BTW, I'm just used to older RPGs where money was nearly a non-issue...even WoW has it down because in that game unless you're farming for mounts or need repairs money isn't very important.
#18 Sep 03 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Supply and demand boys and girls...Economics 101

Whether it be like the Auction in XI or the Retainers in XIV...the market will eventually create itself out of necessity. The pieces yet to be put in place to make the market work...and SE has already said they are working on it. When the search tools are implemented, you may actually enjoy this system better. We should end up with a global search tool to search everything and you will also learn where your favorite retainers are for more consistent one on one buying.

I'm not too worried assuming SE does what they say they would do.
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#19 Sep 03 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Something everyone should note also is that:

Many games have functioned and/or are functioning well with a setup just like Market Wards, this is not the first.

Two examples would be the original Everquest(which added one later, but when they didn't it was great still) and Maple Story. In Maple Story the economy was ridiculous, but not due to the Markets. It was more due to the Scrolls for enchanting weapons and armor which were very rare and had ridiculous fail chances, causing any good equipment to cost millions.
#20 Sep 03 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Supply and demand boys and girls...Economics 101

Whether it be like the Auction in XI or the Retainers in XIV...the market will eventually create itself out of necessity. The pieces yet to be put in place to make the market work...and SE has already said they are working on it. When the search tools are implemented, you may actually enjoy this system better. We should end up with a global search tool to search everything and you will also learn where your favorite retainers are for more consistent one on one buying.

I'm not too worried assuming SE does what they say they would do.


Heres the problem. this is open beta. theres less than 20 days to release. And we know for a face SE sucks at game-economies. FF-11's economy was a HUGE disaster. After exploits in the npc pricing system led to a town of 300+ botters 24/7 resulting in a HUGE gil increase, they failed to drain the economy of all that excess gil. And what did that lead to? Hoarding by CGFs + gil sellers. And what did that lead to? Mass inflation and the collapse of FFXI's economy for 2-3 years. And by mass inflation i mean an axe that was 200k when up to 10mil+

Economies are COMPLICATED. Betas are the perfect time to test them for exploits or problems. If SE just launches an entire trade system without testing it there will probably be serious problems that will make the game annoying to play at times.
#21 Sep 03 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:


its a stupid system compared to the Auction House which creates a clear and clean economy


What you just explained is an auction house run economy -.- it was a smart post 'til the sentence i quoted above...the things is, barely anyone is going to check every other person's prices to dictate a price for an item they're selling - not only is that stupid but its also stupid. The way it is now, people will weigh how much the materials/time spent crafting an item (as an example) cost them and mark it up differently than almost every other person selling that item...this way there is a lot of disparity in sale prices and nothing is dictated by one single person under selling everyone else or one single person inflating the economy single handedly.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 4:27pm by SolidMack
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#22 Sep 03 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What you just explained is an auction house run economy -.- it was a smart post 'til the sentence i quoted above...the things is, barely anyone is going to check every other person's prices to dictate a price for an item they're selling - not only is that stupid but its also stupid. The way it is now, people will weigh how much the materials/time spent crafting an item (as an example) cost them and mark it up differently than almost every other person selling that item...this way there is a lot of disparity in sale prices and nothing is dictated by one single person under selling everyone else or one single person inflating the economy single handedly.


that doesn't create an economy then, without knowledge of what other people are selling for you can never reach a supply-demand equlibrium. Rather you get a luck-of-the-draw based system where no item has a true value or stable value. This means no one really farms items and therefore if you want to craft something to level up you need to go farm yourself. This destroys any chance "disciples of war / magic" have at finding a source of income forcing everyone to be fairly self sufficient.

Or in other words. You cant go "make gil" with an intent to make x amount and use it to buy something.
If theres an AH you can look and see that 12 wind crystals = 1000 gil approx. So you know if you farm 120 you will make approx 10k. then you go do that and get 10k and buy the 10k axe you wanted.

This system is full of uncertainty, it will work out like an AH in the end, just after weeks or months of price changes. it will be annoying to sell anything or make gil. and a lot of people will quit the game.

It might work out if SE adds in new things, but those new things are likely to be exploited if not tested, and its clear SE is not testing them.
#23 Sep 03 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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I made money just fine in Closed Beta without even using a retainer. Just put stuff in my player Bazaar...
#24 Sep 03 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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were there people crafting weapons... like at higher levels? in CB.
making money at the start isnt that bad. its that without an organized economy it seems like it would be very difficult for any crafter to level up properly, which im assuming means lack of end-game gear since no vendors seem to sell stuff

Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 4:50pm by Azurymber
#25 Sep 03 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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I like it how it is right now TBH. The only real worry I have is finding gear, but TBH I'd also rather not worry about making money or any of that just to be competitive. I like the atmosphere in the game right now where there's no real pressure to get this much money to buy this much gear or to level a craft for cash. I can go out and fight stuff like I want to do, not play Final Economics 14. Which was one of my main gripes about FFXI besides the constant LFG sessions, haha

I don't really have anything against crafters and whatnot BTW, I'm just used to older RPGs where money was nearly a non-issue...even WoW has it down because in that game unless you're farming for mounts or need repairs money isn't very important.



The thing is if SE wants to make a game where people can main as gatherers and crafters there needs to be a point to crafting (ie you can make a living at it) - if you make money trivial or crafted gear unimportant you destroy any point to crafting for the most part.

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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#26 Sep 03 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
Azurymber wrote:


This system is full of uncertainty, it will work out like an AH in the end, just after weeks or months of price changes. it will be annoying to sell anything or make gil. and a lot of people will quit the game.



Honestly I think this makes buying and selling a game in its own right which I think is fun. You may not like it but others like myself like the idea. I never had problems in the other beta phase. If I wanted something I kept an eye out for it. I sold things at prices I knew would sell, and bought things for what I was willing to pay. Simple.

AH is sort of boring. As someone who is interested in crafting I like the idea that at least so far I've actually been able to make more money than I pay out in materials. That's awesome. And if SE wants people to feel like crafting is a real class you can play on your own - they need to make it that way - because it isn't viable to main as a crafter if all your materials cost more than finished products (like it was in FFXI for crafts until pretty much after level 60)

Also as for prices of raw materials - a baseline is set by how much you can npc it for. Obviously no one is going to put something on their bazaar for less than they can sell the item to an npc for... so that gives an easy start to things.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#27 Sep 03 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Obviously no one is going to put something on their bazaar for less than they can sell the item to an npc for... so that gives an easy start to things.


made over 10mil on ffxi by buying things from ah that were under npc price. lol
#28 Sep 03 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
Azurymber wrote:
were there people crafting weapons... like at higher levels? in CB.
making money at the start isnt that bad. its that without an organized economy it seems like it would be very difficult for any crafter to level up properly, which im assuming means lack of end-game gear since no vendors seem to sell stuff



I saw level 20ish stuff which given how short OB phases were is pretty high level. I'm not worried about it. If anything crafters have more incentive to figure stuff out and get ahead because the first people selling high level items will be able to get seriously rich until supply meets demand
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#29 Sep 03 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
Azurymber wrote:
Quote:
Obviously no one is going to put something on their bazaar for less than they can sell the item to an npc for... so that gives an easy start to things.


made over 10mil on ffxi by buying things from ah that were under npc price. lol


actually I did that too... but for people who are seriously worried about economy - that is the first thing they are going to figure out... well actually the first thing to figure out is what stuff do crafters need right away? And then see what it npcs for and if you can buy it from an NPC how much does it cost?

Then set your price somewhere in the middle. Yeah - it is complicated - but like I said before, it is a game in its own right. I like that the game is being set up so if you are a sharp merchant you can actually get pretty rich
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#30 Sep 03 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
which im assuming means lack of end-game gear since no vendors seem to sell stuff


There are other ways to get gear, and who knows how vendors change again for retail; in closed beta vendors didn't even sell as much armor as they do in open beta - this is bound to change even more for retails but I hope you didn't expect end game gear from vendors? plus by the time anyone hits end game you can be sure plenty of things will have changed and crafters will have hit their stride, an economy of some sort would've formed...imo, its gonna be up to you to gear yourself - meaning how you interact with others, what you do to help others and in turn how they help you back. Someone mentioned organizations, being part of one and playing an integral part in *something* or another could reflect on your success later on...hopefully Linkshells have that mentality and if they don't they will learn quickly.
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#31 Sep 03 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think it will fail this time.

SE learned a huge lesson with FFXI. The reason the economy took a dump was for various reasons.
Two of which being bots and terribly low drop rates for awesome gear and even some of the decent gear. Terrible combination because that just allows the gil sellers to exploit the economy.

By the time square did anything to fix this it was to late. They took WAY to long to respond. I played FFXI when it came out on PC and watched the economy just inflate over time. Everyone I knew in the game including forum posts on boards such as this one knew of bots. In the game fishing, camping NMs and the gouging prices in the AH had gone on for years.

They finally took action and started banning gil sellers and botters. They said they were investigating the whole time. But to me it seems they only acted when it really destroyed the economy and people were leaving in mass exodus.

I'm sure they don't want to repeat that mistake and will do what they can to keep their user base strong and growing.
#32 Sep 03 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't think it will fail this time.

SE learned a huge lesson with FFXI. The reason the economy took a dump was for various reasons.
Two of which being bots and terribly low drop rates for awesome gear and even some of the decent gear. Terrible combination because that just allows the gil sellers to exploit the economy.

By the time square did anything to fix this it was to late. They took WAY to long to respond. I played FFXI when it came out on PC and watched the economy just inflate over time. Everyone I knew in the game including forum posts on boards such as this one knew of bots. In the game fishing, camping NMs and the gouging prices in the AH had gone on for years.

They finally took action and started banning gil sellers and botters. They said they were investigating the whole time. But to me it seems they only acted when it really destroyed the economy and people were leaving in mass exodus.

I'm sure they don't want to repeat that mistake and will do what they can to keep their user base strong and growing.


That kind of thing is a common mistake made by game developers. For instance in Warhammer everyone complained about the Witch Elf class a whole bunch, then Mythic super-duper-ultra-nerfed it to where it was a piece of utter garbage. People who played the class complained that it was terrible and gave legit reasons why, as well as critical bugs associated with the class that had always been there, but Mythic didn't do anything to fix the class until the Witch Elf players started quitting in droves.

EDIT: Also don't overestimate a game company. Mythic also did the same exact thing as above with the Berserker class in DAoC, so they didn't learn. =\ Hopefully SE does better.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 6:11pm by BRizzl3
#33 Sep 03 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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It seems that if an Auction House is not in the Retail release in about 3 weeks that a lot of people will probably want to take up Smithing and Armoring. It's not like you are wasting your time doing it. I believe you still get Physical experience points in the process. And you would be self-independent and be able to help friends on a whim if they needed something made or repaired.

I love an Auction House like everyone else but having to rely on other people might actually not be so bad this time around especially if you just find a link shell and everyone tries to work on dividing the crafts among each other. As well as maybe planning out job for groups and harder content.

Is it really going to be that bad that you'll have to rely on other people in a MMO?
#34 Sep 03 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The thing is if SE wants to make a game where people can main as gatherers and crafters there needs to be a point to crafting (ie you can make a living at it) - if you make money trivial or crafted gear unimportant you destroy any point to crafting for the most part.


You have a point, but there are ways to keep crafting viable without making it a part of the game that you have to delve into and understand or die. I know y'all are gonna chew me out for this comparison, but in WoW they have enchanting which remains useful to everybody no matter what, and has good buffs exclusive to enchanting, so even if dropped gear is way better than gear you can craft from smithing, for example, there will always be a moneymaking venue in enchanting.

Not only that, there were insanely good pieces of gear that were even better than early raid drops that you had to actually maintain levels in a craft to use. I remember leveling my engineering to 300 just so my hunter could use these really sick goggles. With FFXIVs new armoury system, you could conceivably have pugilist gear that requires x levels in weaving or what have you to equip.

You can create incentives to craft and incentives to buy crafted items without turning the game into a second job, is the point I'm trying to get across. I dunno about you guys, but having serious discussions about applying real world economic principles to that of a video game just makes my head hurt, haha. I play games to escape that sort of crap, not to do it all within the game. Some people like MMOs for crafting...**** I've even heard of people becoming like gil billionaires in FFXI just leveling their crafts and not paying any attention to job levels. But at the same time I just wanna go out, kill monsters, and save the world, haha.
#35 Sep 03 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Altough personally I like crafting because of the feeling of acomplishment in being able to wear "cloths" made by yourself I know most people delv into it because of the possible monetary gains it can provide.

As this is Beta and characters/wallets will be cleared at release most of the "professional" crafters do not have the inclination to do it full time.

I actually like the way that SE as shoed the market ward to function but I'm just afraid it wont be a really viable mechanic (stalls instead of just retainers - dedicated/decorated stalls) because without a search engine then it might just be too much of time sink for players to look through it all. The thing is, with the search engine then all the renting/upgrading your stall will be for naught as people will not be looking at the area but going through the search engine.

Maybe I'm wrong and SE can balance the two sides of the coin but I can't see how they can do that.

If indeed the market mechanics goes as I assume it will the only people that will be able to maintain a constant revenew will be DoL/DoH which present a constant quality (price wise included) and quantity of products on offer.
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#36 Sep 03 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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The whole system is based on a player built economic structure. Our crafting division for example already has planned out how this will work.

Internal Economy:

1. Melee supply the crafters with crystals and Material drops in return they get new armor, weapons and repairs for free.
2. Harvesters will supply crafters with materials in exchange for better tools, armor and repairs.
3. Crafters will accompany "raid" groups to supply them in the field with Food and Repairs.

External Economy:

1. "The Company" will claim 1 or 2 Wards.
2. Retainers are at the little stalls and next to them no random retainers spread everywhere.
3. Wards will be split into areas for Armor, Weapons, Food, Components and Raw materials and retainers named accordingly.
4. One area will be reserved to People looking for repairs to place their retainers there. Crafters will check these Retainers on a regular basis for work.

This will be announced in /sh and on the various server forums so players know where to go. Everyone will know Main Frips and Lower Frips Ward are owned by "The Company".

Was that really so hard to figure out? Players just have to get organized. The game is kind of "sandbox-ish" when it comes to the economy.

KJ
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#37 Sep 03 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Azurymber wrote:
if theres no ah at launch i have a feeling the game will flop. Mainly because no one wants to play a game where they use lvl 1 gear the entire time.

ffxi was so simple. to level crafting you needed to start with crystals (eassy to get) and basic mats from the SIMPLE surrounding areas. this game has like 100 diff items coming from each initial area. its a bit rediculous.

I think SE actually thinks that some people will like -only- be crafters and not really level a job....

Quote:
Heres the problem. this is open beta. theres less than 20 days to release. And we know for a face SE sucks at game-economies. FF-11's economy was a HUGE disaster. After exploits in the npc pricing system led to a town of 300+ botters 24/7 resulting in a HUGE gil increase, they failed to drain the economy of all that excess gil. And what did that lead to? Hoarding by CGFs + gil sellers. And what did that lead to? Mass inflation and the collapse of FFXI's economy for 2-3 years. And by mass inflation i mean an axe that was 200k when up to 10mil+

Economies are COMPLICATED. Betas are the perfect time to test them for exploits or problems. If SE just launches an entire trade system without testing it there will probably be serious problems that will make the game annoying to play at times.


Love when people don't know what they're talking about. First off, XI didn't have an active AH at launch. Second, shards were plentiful in the last closed beta section; as per my own first hand experience. I doubt their drop rate was just randomly nerfed. Materials are hard to find currently, but what the **** do you expect from a game that just started? There's no supply yet.

XI's economy was a huge disaster? lolwut. Did you even play the game or did you just hope on in 2006 and quit in 2007? There amount of exploits in npc pricing during 7+ years of game time can be counted on one hand. Cherry Pies(?), that Tavnazian npc. Do you know where the gil increase game from? It wasn't from playings botting nonstop. It was from a ******** of rmt that SE failed to ban because they were still getting paid. Those people that had multiple accounts and characters running in parallel, abusing things that normal people wouldn't even think of abusing. It had nothing to do with the economy being badly planned. Mass inflation is only a bad thing when everything doesn't scale accordingly, and it most definitely did. Economic collapse for 2-3 years? I'm almost positive you didn't even play the game. The only thing that collapsed, were the in-game wallets of the people who kept their money in stocks(gear) when SE was removing a ******** of gil from the game by finally banning people involved in rmt.

Supply and Demand works perfectly fine, and without an auction house the economy will function properly. After an update or two the AH will be implemented and it will become easier to follow the economy. It's like nobody here knows how an economy actually works. All I hear is "WAAAH THERE"S NO SUPPLY" or "WAAAH I CAN"T FOLLOW THE ECONOMY". At the start of a game, the only people who can follow the economy properly are those who are doing it like their job, like they're merchants. After those core people establish the base of an economy it will become more friendly and everyone will be able to take part in it easily.
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#38 Sep 03 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I dunno why people are complaining about wind shards. I haven't been paying attention this time but on closed beta I had like 300 wind shards within 5 hours of playing, if that.

I have several hundred other ones now but I'm pretty sure I came across a lot of wind shards too.
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#39 Sep 03 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
KindjalFerrer wrote:

The whole system is based on a player built economic structure. Our crafting division for example already has planned out how this will work.

Internal Economy:

1. Melee supply the crafters with crystals and Material drops in return they get new armor, weapons and repairs for free.
2. Harvesters will supply crafters with materials in exchange for better tools, armor and repairs.
3. Crafters will accompany "raid" groups to supply them in the field with Food and Repairs.

External Economy:

1. "The Company" will claim 1 or 2 Wards.
2. Retainers are at the little stalls and next to them no random retainers spread everywhere.
3. Wards will be split into areas for Armor, Weapons, Food, Components and Raw materials and retainers named accordingly.
4. One area will be reserved to People looking for repairs to place their retainers there. Crafters will check these Retainers on a regular basis for work.

This will be announced in /sh and on the various server forums so players know where to go. Everyone will know Main Frips and Lower Frips Ward are owned by "The Company".

Was that really so hard to figure out? Players just have to get organized. The game is kind of "sandbox-ish" when it comes to the economy.

KJ


Yay! Someone who gets it.
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#40 Sep 03 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Internal Economy:

1. Melee supply the crafters with crystals and Material drops in return they get new armor, weapons and repairs for free.
2. Harvesters will supply crafters with materials in exchange for better tools, armor and repairs.
3. Crafters will accompany "raid" groups to supply them in the field with Food and Repairs.

These plans will almost certainly fall apart once the true value of goods and services is established. For instance: the crystals stumbled across by the average melee job might be worth much less than typical equipment repairs, or they might be worth much more. The exchange will be unfair. People will get ****** off.

This will happen with any exchange you can name. In the second example, what value of materials will harvesters supply to crafters, and in exchange for what value of tools, armor, and repairs? If there's a big discrepancy, there's going to be trouble.

What you're basically talking about is establishing communism within your linkshell. I'm not saying it would be impossible to make it work, but it would take intense micromanagement. It would be vastly easier and more fair with a proper free market system.

Organizing the wards is a good idea, though. I think it probably won't be realistic for a single linkshell or company to take over a ward, but it might be possible to establish customs for organizing them (equipment in some wards, crafting items in others, further divided into categories by north and south within each ward).
#41 Sep 03 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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Deadgye

FFXI economy was a huge disaster. Saying it wasn't is ignorant(not dumb).

It was the very hot topic for a long time. I'm a long time FFXI player since launch and I loved the game very much. But the way they handled it was very poor. The economy crippled the game in a very bad way.

Coupling LFG issues hehe. But that varies from person to person.

But the issue of the economy wasn't the problem really. I was more erked by SEs delayed reaction and how out of control they let it get.

All I want is SE to be proactive when it comes to issues like this.
#42 Sep 03 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Default
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Borkachev wrote:
Quote:
Internal Economy:

1. Melee supply the crafters with crystals and Material drops in return they get new armor, weapons and repairs for free.
2. Harvesters will supply crafters with materials in exchange for better tools, armor and repairs.
3. Crafters will accompany "raid" groups to supply them in the field with Food and Repairs.

These plans will almost certainly fall apart once the true value of goods and services is established. For instance: the crystals stumbled across by the average melee job might be worth much less than typical equipment repairs, or they might be worth much more. The exchange will be unfair. People will get ****** off.

This will happen with any exchange you can name. In the second example, what value of materials will harvesters supply to crafters, and in exchange for what value of tools, armor, and repairs? If there's a big discrepancy, there's going to be trouble.

What you're basically talking about is establishing communism within your linkshell. I'm not saying it would be impossible to make it work, but it would take intense micromanagement. It would be vastly easier and more fair with a proper free market system.

Organizing the wards is a good idea, though. I think it probably won't be realistic for a single linkshell or company to take over a ward, but it might be possible to establish customs for organizing them (equipment in some wards, crafting items in others, further divided into categories by north and south within each ward).


What's wrong with communism?

Seriously though, it was not meant as a rule set in stone. The idea is to keep resources within the shell to support everyone. Harvesters are most likely also either crafters or Melee that run by nodes while exp'ing.

If a crafter makes a high level armor for a melee/harvester he benefits in 2 ways. Higher materials and a steady "income" for repairs.

Crafters can exchange harvests as they see fit. Both Weaver and Culinarian want to do botany, but they both get worthless items (for their craft) that they might want to exchange. The Culinarian and Weaver essentially get twice the amount of usable goods.

You get the idea.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 2:52am by KindjalFerrer
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#43 Sep 03 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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What's wrong with communism?


Well it certainly doesn't work in real life. See USSR lol.
#44 Sep 03 2010 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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sparkytenks wrote:
Deadgye

FFXI economy was a huge disaster. Saying it wasn't is ignorant(not dumb).

It was the very hot topic for a long time. I'm a long time FFXI player since launch and I loved the game very much. But the way they handled it was very poor. The economy crippled the game in a very bad way.

Coupling LFG issues hehe. But that varies from person to person.

But the issue of the economy wasn't the problem really. I was more erked by SEs delayed reaction and how out of control they let it get.

All I want is SE to be proactive when it comes to issues like this.


Whatever. Just like poor people think the real world economy is broken and well-off people think it works just fine. The people who complained about the FFXI economy wanted something for nothing. Which is fine - but what they didn't realize was that the "something" was only "something" because you couldn't get it for "nothing". If everything was sold cheap from an NPC then it would be a very boring game because nothing would seem special. No saving up for nice (rare) items.
#45 Sep 03 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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The economy can't fail. Y'all are over complicating things. There are items and there is currency. Supply and demand dictate the rest. The value of the gil might bounce around for a little while but eventually it will stabilize and move relatively slowly from then on.

Y'all act like there will be some kind of grid lock where no one will let go of their gil and no items will be exchanged. Such a scenario is practically impossible.
#46 Sep 03 2010 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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I just don't like:

1) Having to spend a ton of time looking for an item I want to find a good price on it.
2) Having to spend a ton of time or having to do guesswork at how much an item "might" sell for and risk selling it either too low (and ripping myself off) or too high (and it will never sell)
3) Lack of any sort of item organization or ability to find anything without knowing exactly what I'm looking for before I start looking.

It's like going into a Walmart, except that everything is just thrown all over the place. One aisle has towels for $40 a piece, video games for $10 a piece and milk for $4 a gallon. The next aisle has rugs for $3 a piece, some candy bars for $10 a piece, and some shirts ranging in price from $80-120. The aisle after that has some used diapers for $7 a piece, some toothpaste for $90, and some hot pockets for $1 a box.

It's insanity.

You know, SE talks about how they want to make the game casual-friendly, but a market system that is not searchable/browsable results in people WASTING time (or getting ripped off).
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#47 Sep 03 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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You know, SE talks about how they want to make the game casual-friendly, but a market system that is not searchable/browsable results in people WASTING time (or getting ripped off).


Third time today I've posted this, second time on this thread, but here it is again:

Quote:
Regarding auctionhouses:

Regarding Final Fantasy XIV and the market system is something we would like to consider the equivalent to the auction house we had in Final Fantasy XI. Only that you'll also be able to fix your equipment and things like that. It is something we really want people to enjoy. Also after the release of the game we will see how it goes and for example find out what kind of search options players will want and need and improve the situation. We don't really want to introduce the auctionhouse from the beginning because that is going to determine the economy system. So we want to improve it slowly and adjust it accordingly.


Source: http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11066-gamescom-2010-coverage/


#48 Sep 03 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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BRizzl3 wrote:
Quote:
You know, SE talks about how they want to make the game casual-friendly, but a market system that is not searchable/browsable results in people WASTING time (or getting ripped off).


Third time today I've posted this, second time on this thread, but here it is again:

Quote:
Regarding auctionhouses:

Regarding Final Fantasy XIV and the market system is something we would like to consider the equivalent to the auction house we had in Final Fantasy XI. Only that you'll also be able to fix your equipment and things like that. It is something we really want people to enjoy. Also after the release of the game we will see how it goes and for example find out what kind of search options players will want and need and improve the situation. We don't really want to introduce the auctionhouse from the beginning because that is going to determine the economy system. So we want to improve it slowly and adjust it accordingly.


Source: http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11066-gamescom-2010-coverage/




Yeah I saw that. Unlike your post in another thread, I read things before disagreeing with them. Not having a searchable marketplace at release is unacceptable.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 11:23pm by Mikhalia
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Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
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#49 Sep 03 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Not having a searchable marketplace at release is unacceptable.


Who says there won't be one at release? There could be one next week for all you know.
#50 Sep 03 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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Y'all act like there will be some kind of grid lock where no one will let go of their gil and no items will be exchanged. Such a scenario is practically impossible.

A scenario that can absolutely happen is one where buying and selling is so difficult that the majority of players don't bother with it. Imagine a game where 90% of the equipment you see is only what can be quested or bought from vendors, and where crafting/gathering classes aren't worth the effort of playing. I would certainly call that a failed economy.
#51 Sep 03 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Default
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I honestly believe, crafting is too confusing , and too difficult to expect people to just pick it up, i picked up combat right off the bat, i picked up gathering right off the bat. I still have NO IDEA what i am doing when it comes to crafting. I dont know when i should use standard, when i should use rapid, when i should use bold, why i should wait, and from the sounds of it, the general fanbase doesnt know it either, ive read so many guides that just say conflicting or totally opposite things.

Why does it have to be like that? Why isnt there a recipe book? Why isn't there some recipes you can just grind on? Why is there NO EXPLANATION at all about the crafting system, i am pretty patient, but i think people can navigate the 3 or 4 different forums i use and just see my frustration slowly coming forward as i bang my head against the freaking wall.

Why does everything need elemental shards and crystals? There are no recopies you can just create without this crap? Crafting needs a work order system, levels aren't enough, it needs something you can do to not only give you practice, but experience, a steady flow of it.

the system needs to be changed, it really does, otherwise only the hardcore players will supply the economy, that isnt good, since the game is going to be 100% player economy, run by the crafters they need to make it more clear, it doesnt have to be easier it just has to make sense!

I dont think that is asking to much.
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