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will the economy fail?Follow

#52 Sep 03 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
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imo they should AXE the market ward & replace it with personal zone where player will have to ask for invite into there personal zone to shop for there items, i think that be the best idea
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#53 Sep 03 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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honestly believe, crafting is too confusing , and too difficult to expect people to just pick it up, i picked up combat right off the bat, i picked up gathering right off the bat. I still have NO IDEA what i am doing when it comes to crafting. I dont know when i should use standard, when i should use rapid, when i should use bold, why i should wait, and from the sounds of it, the general fanbase doesnt know it either, ive read so many guides that just say conflicting or totally opposite things.

Why does it have to be like that? Why isnt there a recipe book? Why isn't there some recipes you can just grind on? Why is there NO EXPLANATION at all about the crafting system, i am pretty patient, but i think people can navigate the 3 or 4 different forums i use and just see my frustration slowly coming forward as i bang my head against the freaking wall.

Why does everything need elemental shards and crystals? There are no recopies you can just create without this crap? Crafting needs a work order system, levels aren't enough, it needs something you can do to not only give you practice, but experience, a steady flow of it.

the system needs to be changed, it really does, otherwise only the hardcore players will supply the economy, that isnt good, since the game is going to be 100% player economy, run by the crafters they need to make it more clear, it doesnt have to be easier it just has to make sense!

I dont think that is asking to much.



did you skip FFXI lol ?!? crafting was never meant to be easy , the economy will be a joke if every player had a max out craft.. so the crafting system should stay how it is

the economy SHOULD be by does who put time in there craft aka the "HARDCORE" ( like in real life ) so i dont see a problem with it. dont worrie about the non crafters , they will just gain gil by selling there loot to the crafters. since it my understaning that every single loot drop is needed for a craft
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#54 Sep 04 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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BRizzl3 wrote:
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What's wrong with communism?


Well it certainly doesn't work in real life. See USSR lol.


Communism being a form of economics really didn't have much to do with the downfall of the USSR. True communism is suppose to take over after a capitalist society achieved a huge amount of production, obviously followed by exploitation of the working class to a point that there is a huge divide between the "haves" and the "have nots" thus causing a revolution.. followed by communism. This is what Marx theorized anyway.

The USSR failed because they went from feudalism straight to communism with no actual backbone to support itself.. and it sort of caved in.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 3:08am by runtheplacered
#55 Sep 04 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
my only real complaint is it seems like every craft I want to do has wind shards and I have gathered a grand total of 16 so far... after days of grinding... and these crafts take like 4 each >.>
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#56 Sep 04 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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The USSR failed because they went from feudalism straight to communism with no actual backbone to support itself.. and it sort of caved in.


The USSR failed because it was a dictatorship using communism as a legitimization tool
#57 Sep 04 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry but if you have some logic at all, crafting isn't hard. Right now I am a level 10 Goldsmith and 10 armorer, and I'm a level 12 Glad with Physical 17. I craft tons of jewelery and armor for people all day long. I have almost 300,000 gil from the amount I craft. If you give it some patience it's going to pay off, try joining a linkshell and ask if there are any crafters. At launch I'm am gonna be crafting my **** off again to supply the demands of the people.
#58 Sep 04 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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KindjalFerrer wrote:

The whole system is based on a player built economic structure. Our crafting division for example already has planned out how this will work.

Internal Economy:

1. Melee supply the crafters with crystals and Material drops in return they get new armor, weapons and repairs for free.
2. Harvesters will supply crafters with materials in exchange for better tools, armor and repairs.
3. Crafters will accompany "raid" groups to supply them in the field with Food and Repairs.

External Economy:

1. "The Company" will claim 1 or 2 Wards.
2. Retainers are at the little stalls and next to them no random retainers spread everywhere.
3. Wards will be split into areas for Armor, Weapons, Food, Components and Raw materials and retainers named accordingly.
4. One area will be reserved to People looking for repairs to place their retainers there. Crafters will check these Retainers on a regular basis for work.

This will be announced in /sh and on the various server forums so players know where to go. Everyone will know Main Frips and Lower Frips Ward are owned by "The Company".

Was that really so hard to figure out? Players just have to get organized. The game is kind of "sandbox-ish" when it comes to the economy.

KJ


As it stands now the best thing players can do as well as community sites is setup server topics with Market Ward Forums for each nation where players from within the community can easily showcase what they are selling and make deals with others/contracts if they have a large quantity of goods one may want.

While some may put the same of one item ina bazaar if may actually be wiser to put up 10 different items, then advertise on a forum, obtain loyal customers and makes a deal to only sell those goods to them. It's really easy once you get the hang of it, just need a hub where people can advertise and the rest will fall into place, even if it may just be 25% of the server using it it's better then just wandering through the market wards of every retainer.

The best thing about retainers is you can say My name is Johnny Legardo and my Retainer Yululumo is selling the following goods at the East something in Limsa Lominsa market ward. If the items are gone feel free to PM me and I'll see if I have more in stock.

Now hopefully SE will have their own official forum for market wards but if they don't the best thing to do is have community sites setup ways for retainer information to be obtained
#59 Sep 04 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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everything above makes perfect sense except that this game is split between NA and Japan and Europe, with different people speaking different languages. So forums will help, but 90% of people aren't going to be loyal, they are going to go for the lowest price. And if they don't have an easy way to figure out the lowest price they probably will only buy the things they -really- need, which means 80 or 90% of the crafts won't get sold.
#60 Sep 04 2010 at 4:16 AM Rating: Decent
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i understand your feelings however...did you play FFXI? it was the same kind of crafting system...no book or nothin. now mind you i have noticed as i level and do craftleves etc i get recipies...my only thing is they dont have a place to keep a registery of that so if i dont write it down physically its gone forever into the back of my chat log haha.


its really not THAT hard to figure out the crafting system though...just recipies are a pain (but give a month and people will have it all figured out and on the web)

bold is if you wanna raise the QUALITY higher quailty can lead to yielding MORE items (i know that from experience) but i would also assume you can get +1 items too

rapid does it with less failure but quailty sucks (use this if your low lvl, better chance to skill up)

standard is a mix of both. kinda for people who are mid level on that item

theres a short explanation ;)

also the leves recipies are NOT the real ones. they did state that in the OB FAQ(but you can learn a recipie from doing them after wards. shows up in the chat log. now...that should be changed)
#61 Sep 04 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Azurymber wrote:
Quote:
The USSR failed because they went from feudalism straight to communism with no actual backbone to support itself.. and it sort of caved in.


The USSR failed because it was a dictatorship using communism as a legitimization tool


I actually wrote that before going back and editing it because that is simplifying things way too much. Because honestly it was many reasons..I was just trying to give some broad brush strokes by giving a more all encompassing reason. Without an economy and an inability to feed its people, they really didn't stand a chance despite its government. In other words being a dictatorship wasn't the biggest problem, although it obviously was a huge problem in and of itself.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 9:55am by runtheplacered
#62 Sep 04 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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There seems to be an area for an AH in one of the starting cities. It is unaccesable at the moment, but maybe they will open it come the launch.
#63 Sep 04 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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I actually wrote that before going back and editing it because that is simplifying things way too much. Because honestly it was many reasons..I was just trying to give some broad brush strokes by giving a more all encompassing reason. Without an economy and an inability to feed its people, they really didn't stand a chance despite its government. In other words being a dictatorship wasn't the biggest problem, although it obviously was a huge problem in and of itself.


yeah i agree but in reality they were never actually communist at all. technically communism could work as long as there were sufficient resources and it was turned into a quasi-religion in order to override the evolutionary neurological traits of humans. Also as long as there are nations that -aren't- communism, communism could never really succeed unless it cut itself off from the world completely.
#64 Sep 04 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Why does everything need elemental shards and crystals? There are no recopies you can just create without this crap? Crafting needs a work order system, levels aren't enough, it needs something you can do to not only give you practice, but experience, a steady flow of it.


Crystals were always need for synthesis in FFXI, it makes sense that they are in FFXIV. I believe they are supposed to be thought of as a kind of catalyst.

Quote:
The USSR failed because it was a dictatorship using communism as a legitimization tool


Communism can't work in human society, period. Here are some reasons:

-In communism everyone gets an equal share of everything. Who is going to be the brain surgeon if the burger flipper, the janitor, and the cashier all get the same resources? They can't give the brain surgeon more or it's not weighing everyone equally and thus not communism.

-The human mind is infected with greed. This is why capitolism works well, people strive for things. Because of greed people are willing to do whatever it takes to make more money, this gives the population initiative to work hard.

-Change. Nothing can ever stay the same, all things must change, especially governments. For a communism to work it needs to stay the same.

-Free will. In a communism the people can't have a say in the government because if they did it would get twisted into something that's not a communism very easily, because in communism if you change certain things it can easily become something else, like a socialism.

That's enough rambling from me, I know it's opionion but I feel like it all makes sense.

#65 Sep 04 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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BRizzl3 wrote:
Quote:
Why does everything need elemental shards and crystals? There are no recopies you can just create without this crap? Crafting needs a work order system, levels aren't enough, it needs something you can do to not only give you practice, but experience, a steady flow of it.


Crystals were always need for synthesis in FFXI, it makes sense that they are in FFXIV. I believe they are supposed to be thought of as a kind of catalyst.

Quote:
The USSR failed because it was a dictatorship using communism as a legitimization tool


Communism can't work in human society, period. Here are some reasons:

-In communism everyone gets an equal share of everything. Who is going to be the brain surgeon if the burger flipper, the janitor, and the cashier all get the same resources? They can't give the brain surgeon more or it's not weighing everyone equally and thus not communism.

-The human mind is infected with greed. This is why capitolism works well, people strive for things. Because of greed people are willing to do whatever it takes to make more money, this gives the population initiative to work hard.

-Change. Nothing can ever stay the same, all things must change, especially governments. For a communism to work it needs to stay the same.

-Free will. In a communism the people can't have a say in the government because if they did it would get twisted into something that's not a communism very easily, because in communism if you change certain things it can easily become something else, like a socialism.

That's enough rambling from me, I know it's opionion but I feel like it all makes sense.


-In theory- Communism -could- work in a small enough country. It does have many obstacles like those you pointed out. THEORETICALLY though, in a small society of people, pooling wealth could work. To take some very very small scale examples:

In some restaurants, the busboys, waitresses, bartenders, etc all collect their tips and divide them evenly at the end of the night. Assuming they all get paid the same too, this is essentially a very small version of communism.

Expand that to a small township, like something you'd see in Little House on the Prairie or something. If you have a small township of 100-200 that can sustain itself internally, then assuming no corruption (this is a huge stumbling block, but let's be idealist for a moment), it wouldn't be terribly difficult to make sure everyone gets the same amount of eggs, the same amount of milk, the same amount of chicken, the same amount of bread, etc. At a personal level, everyone would have to work on a barter system and any new costs (someone's car breaks down and needs a new engine, or their mattress needs to be replaced) would have to be equally absorbed by the entire community. Again, people don't generally like to pay for other people's stuff, but the knowledge is there that if your stuff is broken, everyone else chips in. A $200 piece of equipment for one person in a 200 person township costs everyone $1 each.

If you managed to institute this under the assumptions that people are honest about their production (and you don't have farmers hoarding extra eggs and selling them on the side or butchers hoarding extra beef and selling them on the side), it -could- work.

The problems are of course that corruption can cause problems, and that interactions outside of their society become difficult since the government would have to approve all external purchasing, sales and other expenditures. And as this society grows, human nature of greed becomes more rampant. People will begin hoarding their own personal stocks and reporting less output to keep more for themselves to barter with or have. Government starts skimming off of supplies and keeping it for themselves, and of course as a society grows to the point of needing skilled laborers, it's difficult to fill these positions. As a society grows, communism becomes harder and harder to maintain. Not impossible, but the ability to maintain it will become extremely low.

So theoretically communism is a plausible option on paper. It only doesn't work when it's not done correctly. And in history, it has -never- been done correctly.
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#66 Sep 04 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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the most practical way to handle socialism/communism would be to remove money as a whole. everything is done without a medium of exchange, and there's an oversight committee or governing body making sure that everyone is producing and consuming their share.

the closest we've had to non-fascist communism would be desert island type scenarios.
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#67 Sep 04 2010 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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communism can't ever succeed in the long run for one simple reason:
Capitalism is an economy based on innate human traits that developed due to evolution 1000s of years ago. If capitalism exists, it will essentially corrupt/outpreform communism, even if it has lesser resources. Neuroeconomics shows that what makes people "happy" is having more than others, rather than -just- having more than they currently have. This means communism goes against basic human nature and how are brains work. Therefore to succeed communism has to be the -only- thing that exists, and has to be implemented as a strong cultural/religious aspect of society, rather than an economic one.
#68 Sep 04 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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BRizzl3 wrote:
[quote]

-The human mind is infected with greed. This is why capitolism works well, people strive for things. Because of greed people are willing to do whatever it takes to make more money, this gives the population initiative to work hard.



I don't agree with this at all. This might be true in most of the western civilization in the modern age, but that does not hold true for many cultures. This infected greed that you brought up is a symptom of a society not an innate characteristic.

I do agree with you that communism really can't work in modern day civilization for a variety of reasons.. some you brought up. But this one in particular I can't go along with.
#69 Sep 04 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Regardless of how anyone feels about communism in real life, it is certainly not going to work in a video game. So it's all a moot point, really.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 4:16pm by runtheplacered
#70 Sep 04 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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-In theory- Communism -could- work in a small enough country. It does have many obstacles like those you pointed out. THEORETICALLY though, in a small society of people, pooling wealth could work.


Good point. In a small society it would be more plausible, I think it could work in the type of setting you're talking about.

Quote:
communism can't ever succeed in the long run for one simple reason:
Capitalism is an economy based on innate human traits that developed due to evolution 1000s of years ago. If capitalism exists, it will essentially corrupt/outpreform communism, even if it has lesser resources. Neuroeconomics shows that what makes people "happy" is having more than others, rather than -just- having more than they currently have. This means communism goes against basic human nature and how are brains work. Therefore to succeed communism has to be the -only- thing that exists, and has to be implemented as a strong cultural/religious aspect of society, rather than an economic one.


This is what I really should've said when I was talking about society being "infected with greed". When I said greed it made it sound too much like I meant money, but what I meant was what you are saying here. People strive to have more than others.

Quote:
I don't agree with this at all. This might be true in most of the western civilization in the modern age, but that does not hold true for many cultures. This infected greed that you brought up is a symptom of a society not an innate characteristic.

I do agree with you that communism really can't work in modern day civilization for a variety of reasons.. some you brought up. But this one in particular I can't go along with.


It's not just western society. There is greed everywhere, from what I'm told Japan(a part of the "eastern world") has some of the worst problems in the world with workaholics. Stereotypically(don't know whether it holds any avail) oriental civilizations are seemingly infatuated with business as well.
#71 Sep 04 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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I don't agree with this at all. This might be true in most of the western civilization in the modern age, but that does not hold true for many cultures. This infected greed that you brought up is a symptom of a society not an innate characteristic.


Neuroscience has prooven that people are happier when they have more than those around them.
This is probably a remnant of when we were evolving (or even when monkeys were evolving)
Those who had more (more food, more shelter, etc) survived better. Therefore they were attractive as mates since they were usually the alpha males. They passed their genes along, and those who had the genes that made their brain want to have more than others tended to strive for that, out-survivng those contempt with living beneath people. As a result that aspect of our brain got passed down to us.
We now know by expiriments done -all- over the world that people gain more happiness from relative gains (ex, i get $10 and you get $0) than if they get an absolute gain (ex, we both get $10). This could be taken to be the "root" of greed if you consider this:
You want more = therefore you act to obtain more than others = therefore you are considered "greedy".
not -every- human acts this way, but the majority do, and even those who don't still have it built into their minds.
So greed is not a western thing, its a neurological thing.
#72 Sep 04 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
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Y'all act like there will be some kind of grid lock where no one will let go of their gil and no items will be exchanged. Such a scenario is practically impossible.

A scenario that can absolutely happen is one where buying and selling is so difficult that the majority of players don't bother with it. Imagine a game where 90% of the equipment you see is only what can be quested or bought from vendors, and where crafting/gathering classes aren't worth the effort of playing. I would certainly call that a failed economy.


Oh come on, be realistic. This game has millions of dollars into development. Do you really think they are going to release a game where no one can find anything they are looking for in the market? You people worry too much about unrealistic scenarios.

Even if it isn't as good as it could be upon release, they already said they would gradually add search features based on our feedback. Did you honestly want a clone of FFXI?

#73 Sep 04 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Default
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To anyone who replied to me: Nobody has yet to prove to me that greed is an innate (gained at birth) characteristic. I honestly am not seeing how anything anyone said to me is proving me wrong and it all seems derivative.

Yes, lots people are greedy. I would never disagree with that. People are rewarded all the time for their greed, so why wouldn't people be greedy? Unfortunately what I was actually trying to say got pushed aside for these obvious statements. Don't mean to sound rude, it's annoying to type something out and it gets completely ignored.

One person pointed to a study.. Yeah.. a study done of people growing up in a capitalistic society being nurtured their entire life on this system? Of course they're going to be greedy. Why did we need a study for that? That's going to be pretty obvious. Not seeing where that's innate or what that even has to do with what my point was.




Edited, Sep 4th 2010 11:48pm by runtheplacered
#74 Sep 04 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Nobody has yet to prove to me that greed is an innate (gained at birth) characteristic.

Have kids.
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#75 Sep 05 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Not having a searchable marketplace at release is unacceptable.


Well.. technically you can search through retainers.. <.<; I personally don't think it's unacceptable, but I do think it's stupid. It most likely won't be in right away.. but if they take any longer than a month I will simply not tolerate it anymore. (I will of course, continue to play the game and pay for it. Because I'm a hypocrit like that.)
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#76 Sep 05 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The most important reason why the economy will fail upon release is that I've already finished the initial storyline missions and have no idea where this retainer marketplace even is. I don't know where to go to find the pseudo-AH, nor do I know how to buy my own retainer to sell my wares. I've got massive amounts of goods to move, but no idea how to sell them (save vendoring them to NPCs). When you open your map, the marketplace is one of the key locations listed on the bottom left of the screen, but there's no way to figure out where it is.
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