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#102 Sep 05 2010 at 11:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
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As far as i have seen, everything that people complained about got fixed.... for the most part. Here are a few examples:


There's a difference between complaining about things to the devs, suggesting it be changed, and complaining about stuff on a forum because you don't like it. The latter is what a majority of people are doing. People are just going "WAAH THIS SUCKS, how could they even plan to release this piece of sh*t." A sh*tload of people seem to think that SE isn't making changes to stuff, when it's fairly obvious to anybody who has played multiple phases that they are.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 1:47am by Deadgye


Yeah, that was the point of my post. Evey one in alpha already ****** about everything. Most of it is getting fixed. Everyone here is ******** about stuff, and they have no idea what was said in beta. I stand firm in my stance. Just wait until release. If you don't like it still, then complain.

Complaining about a beta build is ignorant.
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#103 Sep 05 2010 at 11:53 PM Rating: Default
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You'll never please everyone it impossible certain people will like it one way while other's wont that life get use to it. I'm contributing in my own way I could say the same about you but you have your opinion about it and I can respect that. But don't try forcing your opinion down other people throats isn't going to solve anything. Again will SE make changes yes at the pace you want them to not likely but they will gradually as the game evolves. I set most my computer setting to low and game works just fine and looks great. They design this game with the intent for future technolgy coming out down the road so you can have those setting to the highest eventually. So yes I can understand why people can be frustrated with the concept of upgrading there computer etc it cost money to get the nice stuff is that fair no but yet again that's life my friends.
#104 Sep 06 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
Deadgye wrote:
There's a difference between complaining about things to the devs, suggesting it be changed, and complaining about stuff on a forum because you don't like it. The latter is what a majority of people are doing. People are just going "WAAH THIS SUCKS, how could they even plan to release this piece of sh*t." A sh*tload of people seem to think that SE isn't making changes to stuff, when it's fairly obvious to anybody who has played multiple phases that they are.


Isn't it kind of bad when those of us who haven't played for multiple phases, get the game and feel like it still needs tons of changes? (I.E Mouse lag and UI in accordance with Aurelius.)
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#105 Sep 06 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Default
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Its only bad because you havent seen the progress that has been made. Rapidly. Funniest part is that what most people are complaining about was available in alpha. They are testing without compromise to see what is good and whats not.
#106 Sep 06 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Odentius wrote:
The conscious design choices is up to the developer's not you if don't like it quit. Will they end up changing things up yes because it a mmo they do it in all mmo's. Thanks for keeping my grammar up on a forum really not here to impress you that what every person do when the get mad is oh you mispelled something our use apostrophe typical response...
Over an internet forum (as well as in an MMO, etc.), your sole method of communication is written language. Even when people talk (verbally), body language tells just as much if not more information about the person and the situation as what their words will. You're missing a enormous amount of information that you'd be getting from a face to face conversation, so it is all the more critical that you master the written word to solidify your ability to communicate. Without that, you have nothing.

In b4 "but u cna undarstadn newai1!1!!!" Why should I take extra time to translate what you write before taking time to respond? Just so you don't have to be assed to spend a few extra seconds sounding like an intelligent person instead of a middle school dropout that had 3 kids by age 18?
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#107 Sep 06 2010 at 12:16 AM Rating: Default
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Isn't it kind of bad when those of us who haven't played for multiple phases, get the game and feel like it still needs tons of changes? (I.E Mouse lag and UI in accordance with Aurelius.)


Of course it still needs tons of changes, it's still in beta. I personally don't see any reason to use a mouse so I can't really commend on that; but the UI changes that need to be made are minor imo. They need to get rid of, or merge, some menus. But other than that there's really no problem. Everything should become more streamline once the UI becomes clientside, and I expect shortcuts (possibly even customizable) to be implemented as well.
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#108 Sep 06 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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SolidMack wrote:
Look at your favorite fast food chain, you eat there atleast 3 or 4 times a week, you love their burgers (whatever)...things changed over the past year and the burger quality declined...do you stick to this burger chain because "they had good product" in the past?
I used to absolutely LOVE the old French Vanilla Cappuccino from McDonald's. I'd go out of my way to get one, even without buying anything else at times. Then they came out with "McCafe" and now it tastes like **** and costs twice as much. Ergo, I no longer buy the product, I go elsewhere.

Deadgye wrote:
There's a difference between complaining about things to the devs, suggesting it be changed, and complaining about stuff on a forum because you don't like it. The latter is what a majority of people are doing. People are just going "WAAH THIS SUCKS, how could they even plan to release this piece of sh*t." A sh*tload of people seem to think that SE isn't making changes to stuff, when it's fairly obvious to anybody who has played multiple phases that they are.
All of the core problems that made me not want to play in the very first alpha still exist.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#109 Sep 06 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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All of the core problems that made me not want to play in the very first alpha still exist.

Like?
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#110 Sep 06 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with a lot of what Aurelius had to say. The UI makes me sad.
Just because this game is set up for the console is no excuse for the keyboard & mouse being WORSE then a gamepad.

Party gameplay is going to be a ***** as well... with how we target mobs.
Is there a way to only tab target "enemies"? I wish they had an auto-assist button.
Marking is a pain without hot keys as well. Marking with emotes is fail.

If they add HOTKEYS, it will resolve a lot of our complains with the UI.
Also an option to go from passive mode to active mode automatically would be nice.
A lot of actions on the menu can't be performed will in active mode, and it makes it even more annoying when we enter the menu and have to go back out of the menu to go back to passive mode and go back into the menu. Argh!

Clearly the issues won't be fixed by release date. I'm sure a lot of people have pre-ordered before the open beta was available and is disappointed by the horrible user interface.

The truth is, despite all the problems, we are still going to play the game regardless.
Not having hotkeys isn't a gamebreaker... it's just going VERY ANNOYING, until we get used to it.

We just all have to adjust and get a gamepad (or use only the keyboard and not the mouse) and learn how to use the macros.

I'm ready to play... don't need the launch to be pushed back.

#111runtheplacered, Posted: Sep 06 2010 at 12:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) uhh, why did you reply to me with that? All I did was make fun of a guys source of information, which I stand by. Nothing you said had to do with that. Cool rant though.
#112 Sep 06 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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Err.. option to automatically go from active mode to passive mode after combat.
#113 Sep 06 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Iczel wrote:

Clearly the issues won't be fixed by release date. I'm sure a lot of people have pre-ordered before the open beta was available and is disappointed by the horrible user interface.

The truth is, despite all the problems, we are still going to play the game regardless.
Not having hotkeys isn't a gamebreaker... it's just going VERY ANNOYING, until we get used to it.

We just all have to adjust and get a gamepad (or use only the keyboard and not the mouse) and learn how to use the macros.

I'm ready to play... don't need the launch to be pushed back.



A lot of people will still be itching to get their hands on their retail boxes come release day, and more power to them. There's no benefit to me in having a bunch of people miserable...if they can live with the existing setup until (if) SE improves it, that's awesome. Sadly, however, it seems like SE is going down the path so many other MMO developers have followed...they're getting set to release an unpolished product after an extended period of hype and it's already looking like it's going to cost them.

I know a common sentiment around here is that the folks who were interested in the game but opt not to play it after seeing it in the open beta are welcome to go on their merry way. The people who do enjoy it will continue to play it with or without them. While that may be true in some regards, it's also more than a little short sighted. SE isn't exactly rolling in cash these days. Google will tell you about SE's financial difficulties over the last several years, and most of their more recent offerings aren't exactly living up to the hype.

Remember when the PC release date was announced and the forums were lit up with people frothing at the mouth over all manner of things from the PS3 delay to the shortened testing period, etc. etc? SE is shoving this one out the door ASAP. There's no getting around it. So we get an unpolished game with some amateurish design choices and we hope that with some luck, SE will address them over time. As some others have put it...the paid beta starts at the end of this month, and that's par for the course with MMOs.

But what really hurts MMOs is when their initial offering drives people away. From the sounds of things, some folks here would be perfectly happy if there was only one moderately populated server as long as they could do their thing. Except...who is going to pay for the content updates? Setup and overhead on cutting edge data centers is pretty crazy. Artists and programmers don't work for free. All of these things incur costs and if the game struggles to build and maintain a healthy subscriber base, the game suffers over the long haul. That's a point I've been trying to make here for over a year now. MMO companies that keep their players happy wind up wallpapering their offices with $100 bills (hyperbole), and MMO companies that wallpaper their offices in $100 bills tend to go on to make choices that continue to keep their players happy. On the other hand, sooner or later broke MMO companies start shipping trash updates, scaling back service staff, and doing all sorts of other things that erode their product to the point where only the niche remains, and the niche ain't happy...they just can't bring themselves to move on. The beaten housewife example, while marginally disturbing, was a pretty good example. Folks who want to move on but maybe, just maybe he'll get help they'll find a way to recapture my initial interest if I just stick it out a little longer.....
#114 Sep 06 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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let's just put it this way: I survived FFXI before they made it easier for everyone with all their changes, I can probably handle the worst that FFXIV can throw at me.

What it comes down to is how much & what you're willing to adapt to. I started with a keyboard in ff14, realized it was completely awkward, so I switched over to my wired 360 controller and everything's fine. Would I like to use a keyboard? Sure, I've always used keyboards over gamepads, but it's not something that's going to keep me from playing.

roll with the punches, things'll get sorted. If you really want to play, you'll end up toughing it out. If not, there's always other MMOs for you. Aion is decent. WoW is decent, **** -- go play second life. There's some MMO out there that you'll probably like, so go looking.





Edited, Sep 6th 2010 3:02am by ghosthacked
#115 Sep 06 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
One thing I really want to stress Aurelius, otherwise not really needing to dissect and tl;dr your post,

While we know SE can't grab onto the money fair and make more room for the things that we want to see more of and less of the things we don't. It goes good to note, that some of us have been fans of this company since it was Squaresoft, and another group of us have played this games predacessor.

One thing you might be missing, is that this game is deeply routed (Perhaps an understatement) in FFXI. It's classes, general lore, general feel, and appeal all scream Vanadiel, and to add insult to injury, its Beta is riddled with the same issues of that last game. My biggiest gripe, is the sheer lack of farsightedness on SE's part to see that their game will be popular, and that playing it should be fun. Not a laggy, overcamped, chore with bad UI, and the demand that I play with my 360 controller. The issues I'm looking at can't be fixed in two weeks, to the best of my knowledge.

I don't know how far you can really take this statement, but I see FFXIV as an HD update to an existing franchise, and a chance to progress where that game was ending. I put alot of my money into FFXI so that it'd get better, SE pointed me to marignal 10 dollar Add-On's, a new reason to grind through the same old game, and then to play this game for when I was done. I quit FFXI after the first 80's cap raise, I appreciate the effort, but I need more then that.

When people don't see sufficient change, they *****. Considering I threw money at FFXIII and it turned out to be a colossal waste of time from the folks at SE, it really raises the question of "How long will I let this company kick sand on me?"

(Edit Scratch that, I'm not referring to you anymore, you get it. I'm just using your post as a spring board for the naysayers. Sorry bout that.)

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 3:07am by TheLordOfTheSandwhich
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#116 Sep 06 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it kind of bad when those of us who haven't played for multiple phases, get the game and feel like it still needs tons of changes? (I.E Mouse lag and UI in accordance with Aurelius.)


Of course it still needs tons of changes, it's still in beta. I personally don't see any reason to use a mouse so I can't really commend on that; but the UI changes that need to be made are minor imo. They need to get rid of, or merge, some menus. But other than that there's really no problem. Everything should become more streamline once the UI becomes client side, and I expect shortcuts (possibly even customizable) to be implemented as well.


Has SE actually said they are going to move the UI to the client's side? I've seen multiple posts stating that this is usually how its done keeping the UI server side during testing. I'm no expert but it seems like them keeping the UI server side would be their way of giving a middle finger to things like Windower Plugins.

I can't imagine them considering the UI with the lag it has now, especially in crafting and bazaar setup, acceptable. But I would feel a lot better if this was actually stated by SE somewhere.
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#117 Sep 06 2010 at 1:22 AM Rating: Excellent
TheLordOfTheSandwhich wrote:
One thing I really want to stress Aurelius, otherwise not really needing to dissect and tl;dr your post,

While we know SE can't grab onto the money fair and make more room for the things that we want to see more of and less of the things we don't. It goes good to note, that some of us have been fans of this company since it was Squaresoft, and another group of us have played this games predacessor.

One thing you might be missing, is that this game is deeply routed (Perhaps an understatement) in FFXI. It's classes, general lore, general feel, and appeal all scream Vanadiel, and to add insult to injury, its Beta is riddled with the same issues of that last game. My biggiest gripe, is the sheer lack of farsightedness on SE's part to see that their game will be popular, and that playing it should be fun. Not a laggy, overcamped, chore with bad UI, and the demand that I play with my 360 controller. The issues I'm looking at can't be fixed in two weeks, to the best of my knowledge.

I don't know how far you can really take this statement, but I see FFXIV as an HD update to an existing franchise, and a chance to progress where that game was ending. I put alot of my money into FFXI so that it'd get better, SE pointed me to marignal 10 dollar Add-On's, a new reason to grind through the same old game, and then to play this game for when I was done. I quit FFXI after the first 80's cap raise, I appreciate the effort, but I need more then that.

When people don't see sufficient change, they *****. Considering I threw money at FFXIII and it turned out to be a colossal waste of time from the folks at SE, it really raises the question of "How long will I let this company kick sand on me?"


I'm in agreement. I haven't played FFXIII but I've played all of the others (haven't finished X-2 yet and can't seem to bring myself to finish 9). The core issue here is that I think people want to see that SE can push out a quality title without the need for the shouts of dismayed masses to fix things that never should have been designed a particular way in the first place.

15 years ago when Windows 3.1 was the standard for PC OS GUIs, my highschool computer science teachers made a distinct effort to hammer in the importance of a fluid UI into any application design. This was in a day and age where most highschool computer labs maybe ran Works/Word for Windows, but for computer science you were still running Pascal/C from a DOS kernel. And that continued into university. Long story short, even when GUIs on PCs were just barely starting to come into their own, anyone who knew anything about application design knew that if you're competing with someone else trying to get a buyer's hard earned money in your pocket, one of the best ways you could tip the scales in your favor was to provide software that not only accomplished the required task, but did it with a slick, bulletproof UI.

15 years ago. When it comes to a UI, less is more. Always. Anyone who says otherwise is entitled to their opinion...I just hope they never end up as programmers on the development team that writes the software I need to conduct my business affairs.
#118 Sep 06 2010 at 5:56 AM Rating: Decent
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TheLordOfTheSandwhich wrote:


I don't know how far you can really take this statement, but I see FFXIV as an HD update to an existing franchise, and a chance to progress where that game was ending. I put alot of my money into FFXI so that it'd get better, SE pointed me to marignal 10 dollar Add-On's, a new reason to grind through the same old game, and then to play this game for when I was done. I quit FFXI after the first 80's cap raise, I appreciate the effort, but I need more then that.


FFXIV only has better graphics, other than that it is not better than FFXI and the direction they are taking with the game doesn't give me any hope that it ever will be.

They pretty much lost me when I found out I could run to another city at lvl 1 in about 15 minutes with nothing dangerous on the way. Between that and being able to teleport pretty much anywhere instantly the game feels more like a theme park than an world to me.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:57am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#119 Sep 06 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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You can't really draw any conclusions from this atm: look at how FFXI started out. How long was it before Japan even got Zilart? I'm not sure if any of you have played FFXI at launch, but take away zilart, and what did you have? Just the nation missions and something like a level 50 or 55 cap? We were lucky enough to have Zilart prepackaged at NA launch.

Anyway, we're probably not going to see the "good" storylines for a bit, but give them a break, they're just getting the MMO up to retail, and what, they were at the alpha stages like 5 months ago?

Just do your "nation missions" and whatever else and wait it out, I'm sure we'll get artifact armors & major storyline additions and stuff with future expansions or patches.

#120 Sep 06 2010 at 6:19 AM Rating: Excellent
Lobivopis wrote:
TheLordOfTheSandwhich wrote:


I don't know how far you can really take this statement, but I see FFXIV as an HD update to an existing franchise, and a chance to progress where that game was ending. I put alot of my money into FFXI so that it'd get better, SE pointed me to marignal 10 dollar Add-On's, a new reason to grind through the same old game, and then to play this game for when I was done. I quit FFXI after the first 80's cap raise, I appreciate the effort, but I need more then that.


FFXIV only has better graphics, other than that it is not better than FFXI and the direction they are taking with the game doesn't give me any hope that it ever will be.

They pretty much lost me when I found out I could run to another city at lvl 1 in about 15 minutes with nothing dangerous on the way. Between that and being able to teleport pretty much anywhere instantly the game feels more like a theme park than an world to me.


Can't say I agree with you on those two points. I love the way they have it currently set up for moving from one starter zone to the next. It suits people who know each other from outside the game in that they can create their character in whichever city appeals to them and not have to waste all kinds of time just trying to meet up in Valkurm once they've finally all leveled to the point where it's worth being there. And as for the teleporting, it's on a rather short leash. Sure, you can teleport until you're blue in the face...or until you run out of anima. Then you get one local teleport every four hours (not counting the return feature). Six hours for a teleport across regions. Pretty steep cooldown relative to the competition, but it's a **** handy feature. Especially when you've got a journal full of local quests with 10 minutes of plain ol' running between each of the four places you need to be in to get them all done.
#121 Sep 06 2010 at 6:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You can't really draw any conclusions from this atm: look at how FFXI started out. How long was it before Japan even got Zilart? I'm not sure if any of you have played FFXI at launch, but take away zilart, and what did you have? Just the nation missions and something like a level 50 or 55 cap? We were lucky enough to have Zilart prepackaged at NA launch.

Anyway, we're probably not going to see the "good" storylines for a bit, but give them a break, they're just getting the MMO up to retail, and what, they were at the alpha stages like 5 months ago?

Just do your "nation missions" and whatever else and wait it out, I'm sure we'll get artifact armors & major storyline additions and stuff with future expansions or patches.


Why continue to play and play? Why not just wait until one can be sure the appropriate changes will be/have been made and then subscribe? I want to love FFXIV, and playing so far in the beta, a lot of it seems great. However, the UI is atrocious, the interactions are laggy, inventory doesn't appear to be sortable, monsters behave erratically and don't seem tuned correctly in Gridania (where the "solo" level 10 guildleves pit you against easyish monsters that sometimes flee by level 14 monsters that essentially oneshot you and teabag your corpse), at least, and the crafting interface, even if the UI portion were sped up significantly, would be too slow.

It seems prudent to me to wait until they've fixed these issues instead of purchasing the game at release to make sure they've actually addressed the issues people say are because it's "still in beta." I'd rather not waste my $75 or $50 only to find that the game's very fun features (looks, story so far, ideas of the mechanics, battle system and crafting complexity) are eclipsed by a constant barrage of annoyances (while most of them are small, there are a lot of small annoyances, making most of the game frustrating... and I don't like my games to be frustrating). The least they could do is fix the darn underwear icon or let you repair it past 50% without having to scour the world for a pair of drawers.

The idea that one should wait and play until it gets good sounds like a *********'s credo. Playing when it gets good is probably a better use of one's time.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:51am by JDCyran
#122 Sep 06 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Decent
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It's more time for us beta testers to play it free haha
However it's the inner nature of mmorpg to have patches released often.
You're right to say it's buggy. I was on the mission with the little Susipi (don't know) and I got an error just after I had to meet her up.
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#123Bezmir, Posted: Sep 06 2010 at 6:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I hope that most of you know that your crying for no reason at all. I also hope you come back and read how stupid you are.
#124 Sep 06 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Default
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JDCyran wrote:

Why continue to play and play? Why not just wait until one can be sure the appropriate changes will be/have been made and then subscribe? I want to love FFXIV, and playing so far in the beta, a lot of it seems great. However, the UI is atrocious, the interactions are laggy, inventory doesn't appear to be sortable, monsters behave erratically and don't seem tuned correctly in Gridania (where the "solo" level 10 guildleves pit you against easyish monsters that sometimes flee by level 14 monsters that essentially oneshot you and teabag your corpse), at least, and the crafting interface, even if the UI portion were sped up significantly, would be too slow.

It seems prudent to me to wait until they've fixed these issues instead of purchasing the game at release to make sure they've actually addressed the issues people say are because it's "still in beta." I'd rather not waste my $75 or $50 only to find that the game's very fun features (looks, story so far, ideas of the mechanics, battle system and crafting complexity) are eclipsed by a constant barrage of annoyances (while most of them are small, there are a lot of small annoyances, making most of the game frustrating... and I don't like my games to be frustrating). The least they could do is fix the darn underwear icon or let you repair it past 50% without having to scour the world for a pair of drawers.

The idea that one should wait and play until it gets good sounds like a *********'s credo. Playing when it gets good is probably a better use of one's time.


Individual experiences while playing the game are largely subjective. I don't have any problems playing the game, and I'm navigating the menus just fine with my 360 controller. Like I said, sure there is room for improvement, but *I* haven't encountered anything thus far that'd stop me from playing the game at retail launch. Yes, sure--you may enjoy the game more when there's expansions and everything's been fixed: so go ahead and wait it out, if that's your thing.

I'm just fine with the game the way it is. So, I'll be playing at launch and working on my characters.
#125 Sep 06 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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"ghosthacked" wrote:
Individual experiences while playing the game are largely subjective.


They're entirely subjective, not largely. Also, did something I said suggest they weren't, or are you just playing captain obvious? I mean, after all, it was you who said:

Quote:
Anyway, we're probably not going to see the "good" storylines for a bit, but give them a break, they're just getting the MMO up to retail, and what, they were at the alpha stages like 5 months ago?

Just do your "nation missions" and whatever else and wait it out, I'm sure we'll get artifact armors & major storyline additions and stuff with future expansions or patches.


By using the word "we're", you implied you thought you wouldn't see good storylines for a bit, and in suggesting we "give [SE] a break," you implied they needed to be given one. So I asked, "why play before it's good?" and gave examples of what I thought wasn't good and that I might want to see fixed/changed before I decided to purchase/play. That's a pretty legitimate question, given the circumstances.

However, I guess you were being disingenuous; apparently you felt I needed to be clobbered with a truism (people's opinions are subjective!) because you obviously think it's good (enough to play) and were therefore clearly using "we're" as a failed rhetorical device in an effort to try to berate someone for not liking the current state of the beta... on the entire basis that you like it. That suggests you don't honestly think

Quote:
Individual experiences while playing the game are largely subjective.


or that

Quote:
You can't really draw any conclusions from this atm


Because you have, and have suggested that other people's are incorrect.

:)

Quote:
So, I'll be playing at launch and working on my characters.


Stated for extra emphasis, no doubt, to express just how much your opinion is subjective!

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 10:26am by JDCyran
#126 Sep 06 2010 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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They've already accounced the dates everywhere, doubt they can take their words back that easily
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#127 Sep 06 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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To sort of play both sides of the fence:

I enjoy the game and after seeing for myself what beta is, decided to preorder. Not a CE version, but definitely a preorder for me. The game has it's issues, don't get me wrong, but I think that the launched game will be a little more optimized, a little more streamlined and less laggy, and perhaps they will fix or add some more things or at least make some changes before and immediately after release.

There is just one problem:

In today's MMO market, you really only get ONE release. People are too eager to reach for the torches and join the rioting before moving to another game or back to their old one. FFXIV will wow people up to the first scene where you have to fight something where they will probably go "Huh?" wow them with the cutscene after... but then the wow factor really has a chance to slip away from some people. Hopefully, SE will at least announce plans they have for release and the month after release so people who come to the game at least see what is coming ahead.
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#128 Sep 06 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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165 posts
Quote:
Have you run into anything that is any more than a minor inconvenience or annoyance? No.

Yes, he has. What is minor to you may not be minor to someone else. I am in the casual gaming industry, and a bad UI is major. The mouse doesn't work perfectly? 50% less sales. It's as easy as that. Hardcore / fanboys tend to care less about the UI, which indicates that it IS a matter of opinion. The person you quoted sees it as major, that's fine.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 11:36am by Rydus
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#129 Sep 06 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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749 posts
Quote:
Its only bad because you havent seen the progress that has been made.


Now wait a minute. . you mean to tell me that all these technical issues and broken systems are a major IMPROVEMENT over the way it was before?! If it's this bad now I SHUDDER to think how bad it was then.

Of course, I wonder how many of the technical issues I've experienced are the result of essentially running the game through an emulator [as opposed to a proper windows style install with registry entries, etc] But we can't compare something we've never seen, huh?
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#130 Sep 06 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
LordDVS wrote:


Seriously, this isn't the first MMO that had a less than optimal Beta. This is not the first MMO that is set to be released, without issues. It's sure as **** not the first MMO to start off with its fair share of haters, naysayers, and disbelievers. I can draw up many things that I don't like, as easily as I can point out what I do like. The awesome thing about MMO's (with a great support staff) is that it is dynamic. The game a year from now, can be much different than the game at launch.


Future possibilities rarely keep people playing in the here and now. I've seen a lot of games emerge from beta with fixable problems and the potential to be great in six months or a year, and they pretty much all fail. Not too many people have the patience to shell out for the box and then pay a monthly sub for 6-12 months so that they can participate in the gradual evolution of a game into a complete product.

Age of Conan, Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, All Points Bulletin, and many other recent efforts have all fallen flat because consumers always have the option of retreating to WoW, FFXI, or other established, working games.
#131 Sep 06 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
Raolan wrote:
Quote:
Unluckily, I can not agree. Server connection/R0/crashes and such are completely understandable. But things like the stupid retainer zombie dungeon, the lack of (incentive to do) skillchains and the *horrible* menu structure are just evil. How long does it take to set up some abilities or /equipaction... makros? Should it take that long in 2010? How long to compare two pieces of equipment? Or check the prices in people's bazaars (which are not even displayed unless you highlight/select the item!)? Or have each of your equipment items repaired one-by-one by 20 different guys specializing in the respective type of armor/weapon/craft? They still have a looong way to go in UI usability. But what worries me more is the logic flaws in the game system itself. Which is *not* understandable, since they managed to do better in XI.


Everything you just listed is either a minor issue, or a personal preference. I think you need to learn the difference between usable and ideal. Is anything you listed making the game unplayable? No. Which would mean it isn't gamebreaking.


If it makes the game a pain rather than a pleasure, it is game breaking. After all, why would I pay money to make myself miserable? The answer is that I wouldn't.
#132 Sep 06 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
20 posts
seneleron wrote:
[quote]Its only bad because you havent seen the progress that has been made.


I'm sorry but for a game that's this close to launch it doesn't matter how much progress you have made if it still isn't SEMI decent for a release.. just means they needed more time to make even more progress.
#133 Sep 06 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Default
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158 posts
Quote:

They're entirely subjective, not largely. Also, did something I said suggest they weren't, or are you just playing captain obvious? I mean, after all, it was you who said:


By using the word "we're", you implied you thought you wouldn't see good storylines for a bit, and in suggesting we "give [SE] a break," you implied they needed to be given one. So I asked, "why play before it's good?" and gave examples of what I thought wasn't good and that I might want to see fixed/changed before I decided to purchase/play. That's a pretty legitimate question, given the circumstances.

However, I guess you were being disingenuous; apparently you felt I needed to be clobbered with a truism (people's opinions are subjective!) because you obviously think it's good (enough to play) and were therefore clearly using "we're" as a failed rhetorical device in an effort to try to berate someone for not liking the current state of the beta... on the entire basis that you like it. That suggests you don't honestly think

or that

Because you have, and have suggested that other people's are incorrect.

:)


Stated for extra emphasis, no doubt, to express just how much your opinion is subjective!


It's just a way of speaking & typing, dude -- Why argue semantics? You know exactly what I was addressing, yet you decided to instead do this?

I know experiences are entirely subjective. I typed "largely" because it's just one of my writing habits.
Once again, these are just nuances in the way that I write "casually."

and yes, the experiences are SUBJECTIVE:

I don't know what type of computer you're running. I don't know how that may affect your experience with FFXIV, so if you wanted to know exactly what I was implying, it was this:

My computer runs FFXIV perfectly fine, I do not suffer any "slow downs" or "slow interfaces" or any those complaints that have been hitting the forums. Hey, some other people might--and that'll pretty much ruin their experience with the game. I don't know their individual tolerances, even.

Yes--I do infact have higher tolerances for 'crap,' than what I'd suspect an average person would. What would appear to be a problem for someone else may not appear to be a problem for me. Should it be a problem for me because it's a problem for you? I wouldn't have a problem playing FFXIV with my old dual-core, if were inclined to use it. Again, this comes down to what a person is willing to tolerate.

I do *UNDERSTAND* -- I'd buy everyone a brand-new computer so that it could increase their odds of having a wonderful time playing the game, if I could, but hey, I'm just not that wealthy.

My post was an appeal to the reasonably well-minded individuals to at least compare FFXIV's launch with FFXI's--to note the similarities and possibly gain an understanding of what might happen with FFXIV, that this quite possibly isn't the death knell of an MMO because it "has no content," or whatever else the seemingly persnickety individuals are throwing out as complaints.

Anyway, if you get this worked up over a forum post, then yes, I understand your position: the game must seem oh-so horrible and not up to your standards.

I'm not even going to bother with you any further, because this subjective 'experience' with you has led me to believe you're just an **** person.

I'll wait 'til you 'get better/improve.' :)


Edited, Sep 6th 2010 5:49pm by ghosthacked
#134 Sep 06 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,535 posts
KarlHungis Delivers on Time wrote:
Age of Conan, Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, All Points Bulletin, and many other recent efforts have all fallen flat because consumers always have the option of retreating to WoW, FFXI, or other established, working games.


Funny that you should mention APB, since I played that game's open beta too. And it was actually far more polished that the current state of FF14 (and for comparison, APB open beta was about two weeks before release) - the servers were stable, the UI worked, the economy was functional (the auction house was even up and running), and the controls were functional and responsive (though driving could be laggy depending on your connection).

And yet, come release day, it received middling reviews; with the one flaw being cited almost universally by reviewers being the lack of content. Most said some variation on "it's fun, but there's not enough content yet, and I can't justify sticking with it for 6 to 12 months, waiting for more content to come."

Now just imagine what they'd say about a game where, at launch, the UI is clunky and unintuitive and gets in the player's way more than it helps them, economic activity is severely hindered by the lack of a convenient market search mechanic, and there's an XP-throttling system that seems tailor-made to slow people's progress toward reaching the endgame content that doesn't exist yet. "I can't justify sticking with it, waiting for more playability to come"?

I think the fact that I really want to like this game, and I actually do like several elements of it, and yet I can't bring myself to start playing at launch, says it all.

This is 2010, and MMO is a well-established genre now. MMOs can no longer expect to sell on future potential.
#135 Sep 06 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
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ghosthacked wrote:
Quote:

They're entirely subjective, not largely. Also, did something I said suggest they weren't, or are you just playing captain obvious? I mean, after all, it was you who said:


By using the word "we're", you implied you thought you wouldn't see good storylines for a bit, and in suggesting we "give [SE] a break," you implied they needed to be given one. So I asked, "why play before it's good?" and gave examples of what I thought wasn't good and that I might want to see fixed/changed before I decided to purchase/play. That's a pretty legitimate question, given the circumstances.

However, I guess you were being disingenuous; apparently you felt I needed to be clobbered with a truism (people's opinions are subjective!) because you obviously think it's good (enough to play) and were therefore clearly using "we're" as a failed rhetorical device in an effort to try to berate someone for not liking the current state of the beta... on the entire basis that you like it. That suggests you don't honestly think

or that

Because you have, and have suggested that other people's are incorrect.

:)


Stated for extra emphasis, no doubt, to express just how much your opinion is subjective!


It's just a way of speaking & typing, dude -- Why argue semantics? You know what exactly what I was addressing, yet you decided to instead do this?

I know experiences are entirely subjective. I typed "largely" because it's just one of my writing habits.
Once again, these are just nuances in the way that I write "casually."

and yes, the experiences are SUBJECTIVE:

I don't know what type of computer you're running. I don't know how that may affect your experience with FFXIV, so if you wanted to know exactly what I was implying, it was this:

My computer runs FFXIV perfectly fine, I do not suffer any "slow downs" or "slow interfaces" or any those complaints that have been hitting the forums. Hey, some other people might--and that'll pretty much ruin their experience with the game. I don't know their individual tolerances, even.

Yes--I do infact have higher tolerances for 'crap,' than what I'd suspect an average person would. What would appear to be a problem for someone else may not appear to be a problem for me. Should it be a problem for me because it's a problem for you? I wouldn't have a problem playing FFXIV with my old dual-core, if were inclined to use it. Again, this comes down to what a person is willing to tolerate.

I do *UNDERSTAND* -- I'd buy everyone a brand-new computer so that it could increase their odds of having a wonderful time playing the game, if I could, but hey, I'm just not that wealthy.

My post was an appeal to the reasonably well-minded individuals to at least compare FFXIV's launch with FFXI's--to note the similarities and possibly gain an understanding of what might happen with FFXIV, that this quite possibly isn't the death knell of an MMO because it "has no content," or whatever else the seemingly persnickety individuals are throwing out as complaints.

Anyway, if you get this worked up over a forum post, then yes, I understand your position: the game must seem oh-so horrible and not up to your standards.

I'm not even going to bother with you any further, because this subjective 'experience' with you has led me to believe you're just an **** person.

I'll wait 'til you 'get better/improve.' :)


Edited, Sep 6th 2010 5:45pm by ghosthacked


I honestly have no idea why you replied to him at all. His response was a all over the place and a mess. Who would want to reply to someone that spends that much time copying and pasting all in the name of being a prick? Forget him and move on, I agree.
#136 Sep 06 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It's just a way of speaking & typing, dude -- Why argue semantics? You know exactly what I was addressing, yet you decided to instead do this?


Because semantics are important; semantics are the meaning behind the words one uses, and they define what sentences mean. You were using "largely" to try to make yourself seem reasonable when you weren't being reasonable; you implied with your language that you were waiting for something good when in fact you were making an attempt to suggest another person's problems with the game weren't valid as you had already decided it was good. In other words, you were being patronizing and clearly had an agenda alternate to what your words suggested. That's a significant bit different than saying the experiences are subjective. If you truly thought so, you wouldn't be here arguing and would have answered my question, "Why play before it's good?" with a simple answer rather than using deceitful language, an obvious truism that was entirely unnecessary, to try to bolster your point.

Quote:
I know experiences are entirely subjective. I typed "largely" because it's just one of my writing habits.
Once again, these are just nuances in the way that I write "casually."


Don't confuse "casually" with "poorly."

Quote:
My computer runs FFXIV perfectly fine, I do not suffer any "slow downs" or "slow interfaces" or any those complaints that have been hitting the forums. Hey, some other people might--and that'll pretty much ruin their experience with the game. I don't know their individual tolerances, even.


The slow interface is verifiably not a client computer related problem; it is a result of interface actions being server side. The delay when selecting crafting materials, getting into crafting position, browsing through your inventory, etc. have next to nothing to do with one's computer specs - you'd be more likely to see slow actions in other places, such as entering combat, etc. if computer specs were the problem. However, you can see when you perform some interface actions that your latency bar will change color; that is the result of server delay, as very little processing/graphics occur when you click an item in your inventory or choose to "synthesize". Additionally, it is the only problem of those I mentioned that could remotely be tied to client side processes (though incorrectly), so your reason for choosing that example is obvious.

Thusly, your point is moot. Saying that some people tolerate it and some don't doesn't really need explanation, as I said above (and you did, too, which makes it all the more odd that you said it again). Every time someone says they don't like the interface, you are not required to say, "well I do," and certainly shouldn't do so after saying "all experiences are subjective." If you truly believed that, you'd see people say so and be fine with it rather than having to try to argue or explain your subjective opinion multiple times.

Quote:
Yes--I do infact have higher tolerances for 'crap,' than what I'd suspect an average person would. What would appear to be a problem for someone else may not appear to be a problem for me. Should it be a problem for me because it's a problem for you?


No. Why would it be? Who said it should be? Judging from your responses, it seems like you have a problem with other peoples' perceptions of the game, not the other way around. When you implied (using "we're") that you thought the good stuff would come later, I asked "why not wait until it's good..." and you then stated that you think it's good. There wouldn't be any of this if you hadn't used deceptive language in the first place, nor if you didn't care what others thought because you recognized their opinions as subjective. I don't particularly care that you think it's good, and I have not argued that you shouldn't think it's good. I was asking why people who don't think it's good as you had implied you thought it wasn't why they would pay and play instead of waiting until it was good. Apparently you think that means I'm saying you can't think it's good, which is stupid.

Quote:
My post was an appeal to the reasonably well-minded individuals


I doubt that. You were attempting to appeal to like minded individuals, defining their "reasonableness" based on whether they agree with you.

Quote:
to at least compare FFXIV's launch with FFXI's--to note the similarities and possibly gain an understanding of what might happen with FFXIV, that this quite possibly isn't the death knell of an MMO because it "has no content," or whatever else the seemingly persnickety individuals are throwing out as complaints.


Then you should have no problems with people who want to wait to play until after the good stuff arrives, but you clearly do, as you demonstrate by having to explain, when someone says they don't, that you apparently still do like it.

Quote:
Anyway, if you get this worked up over a forum post, then yes, I understand your position.


It's good that you admitted you don't understand my position, then, and that explains your need to feel like you had to explain yourself again.

Quote:
I'm not even going to bother with you any further, because this subjective 'experience' with you has led me to believe you're just an **** person.


Here's to hoping you can hold to your word!

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:47pm by JDCyran
#137 Sep 06 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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305 posts
Quote:
The beaten housewife example, while marginally disturbing, was a pretty good example. Folks who want to move on but maybe, just maybe he'll get help they'll find a way to recapture my initial interest if I just stick it out a little longer.....


I just talked to SE on the phone, he told me "Baby, i can change". I think things will be ok from here out.

Quote:
Its only bad because you havent seen the progress that has been made.


That kinda makes it worse. Tells me that the game was even more unpolished and not as intuitive than it is now, which give me a "wtf were they thinking" notion.
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#138 Sep 06 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Limited camera pitch range that makes it impossible to look over ledges .

Who the **** thought that was a good idea?

Because of that I couldn't see the cave entrance to the ferry docks and it took me over an hour to figure out that there was a cave leading to the base of the cliffs.


Either it's arbitrary, which makes it bad design, or it's intentional in order to limit your visual range on obstacles like the aforementioned cliffs, in which case it's even worse design.

This one thing really, REALLY frustrates me. It makes me feel like I'm playing the game with shackles on.

The other thing that frustrates me a lot is how the game "helpfully" makes characters disappear when you get too close. This also means you can't walk up to another character or NPC and admire them in closeup. Maybe this doesn't bother some people but it's a huge annoyance for me.



Edited, Sep 7th 2010 1:59am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#139 Sep 07 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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455 posts
I live in a household with three other people that have preorders and to be honest the two of us actually playing wish launch was well... now so our characters didn't get wiped because we're having so much fun playing together. We stuck out FFXI for years, mainly for the missions and story and FFXIV looks like it will bring the same things we loved, with the added bonus of us actually being able to group up in shorter blocks of time. The UI we haven't really had any issues with, it's simple enough to figure things out and I'm at the point I don't even notice the menu issue people keep bringing up.

Different people have different tolerances for different things is all.If we all liked the same thing there wouldn't be any need for multiple MMOs in the world. For instance, level sync killed FFXI for me and I thought it was the worst thing to happen to the game- A lot of people would disagree. The thing to remember is for everyone here complaining, there are more on game playing having fun. So no, I don't think they need to push back launch.
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#140 Sep 07 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Has SE actually said they are going to move the UI to the client's side?


If they do this and/or allow people to mod UI's everything will be well and good. I think the problem here isn't that SE are "stupid" for not making a UI we're used to, its that they're sitting dead center between two major markets that play two completely different styles. I'm gonna take a gander and say that the Japanese crowd favors the controller over the mouse and keyboard any day, and because the servers are mixed obviously SE either has to opt for a more intuitive mouse/keyboard friendly UI or a more controller friendly UI; on top of this they want everyone playing on even grounds - humble from one perspective but imo they should just let people play any way they want, i don't see anyone gaining an advantage with one UI over another other than one can cater to what they feel more comfortable with (not a major advantage anyway). Personally, the UI doesn't annoy me enough to make a fuss about it but I wish SE would just give people what they want so we can put an end to these conversations.
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#141 Sep 07 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Like may people I'm disappointed with the current state of FFXIV (though I'm more concerned with trade being nearly impossible, so there isn't going to be much of an economy).

However, I do have hope for FFXIV as the 'real' launch is likely to be the PS3 launch next year, so they have some time to fix things.
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#142 Sep 07 2010 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
7 posts
SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
Has SE actually said they are going to move the UI to the client's side?


If they do this and/or allow people to mod UI's everything will be well and good. I think the problem here isn't that SE are "stupid" for not making a UI we're used to, its that they're sitting dead center between two major markets that play two completely different styles. I'm gonna take a gander and say that the Japanese crowd favors the controller over the mouse and keyboard any day, and because the servers are mixed obviously SE either has to opt for a more intuitive mouse/keyboard friendly UI or a more controller friendly UI; on top of this they want everyone playing on even grounds - humble from one perspective but imo they should just let people play any way they want, i don't see anyone gaining an advantage with one UI over another other than one can cater to what they feel more comfortable with (not a major advantage anyway). Personally, the UI doesn't annoy me enough to make a fuss about it but I wish SE would just give people what they want so we can put an end to these conversations.


I have seen alot of people saying that SE is going to move the UI Clientside, and i'm afraid that most don't even know what they are talking about. The UI is probably already client side, the thing that makes it laggy is the request/response time from the server.

When you open a shop you send a request to server saying "Hey let me se what this shop is selling", now the game waits for the server response which is going to be something like "He's selling this and that" once it recieves this response it will open the buy/sell UI.

The same with crafting, when you want to start crafting you send that request to the server, and the server responds with "start that animation, open craft interface... etc." (simplified that is, there is probably alot more going on behind the curtain)
#143nirtsbro, Posted: Sep 07 2010 at 4:18 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) its called the 'F' key on the keyboard.
#144 Sep 07 2010 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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t's the same as FFXI. FFXI was built to be played with a controller and is way better that way.


Yes. And even when played with a controller, the menu structure is just HILLARIOUS. We all know the ******************** is, well, just that. But the whole thing is even more aggravated by the fact that you have to click+select at least 7 times so put up a single item for sale (not counting the price input). That' at least 5 times too often in my opinion.
#145 Sep 07 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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nirtsbro wrote:
SE said they will launch this game sept 22 (for CE) and the 30th for the normal. if they fail to come up with a decent product by then, then the masses will tell them with their money.
If they keep their preorder, whether they like it or not, the initial response will be "HUEG SUCCESS" because they'll be getting $50-$75 for their first month from every subscriber waiting to see how poor the game is at release. The correct response is if you don't like the state of the open beta now, cancel your preorder. Yes, this means going without a unique meaningless in-game item, which is SE's way of conning people into buying the game on the release date.
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#146 Sep 07 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Double

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 11:45am by Restyoneck
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#147 Sep 07 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Default
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Game will be fine on release.

Tom thinks so too, he dont care about all you pessimistic/realistic guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qPpbVllX7M

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 11:46am by Mithraspike
#148 Sep 07 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I'm sorry I have to agree with the statements about the menu and UI.
I've been the guy saying we shouldn't complain about this and that until we see the release version, but I think it's quite apparent that the game interface mechanics are not going to change, just perhaps the latency issue.
I know comparing it to XI gets the "This isn't XI" reponses, but developers ARE supposed to learn from their previous projects. SE has done this well on so many levels with XIV, it's astounding that one of the most immportant aspects of any game (intuitve menus/controls) has actually gone full reverse in this case.
In XI you could pretty much fly through the menu without even looking at it, just on instinct alone - and while your character was in motion and/or in battle. In XIV you not only have to stop what you're doing, but it actually creates the feeling you've paused the game to look at the Brady Guide or something of that nature. It totally kills immersion, and quite honestly makes you feel a little like a novice if you are used to the mach 3 menu manipulation of XI.
It really feels like SE put no priority to the development of the UI at all. It gives the impression of amateur design, and SE is not an amateur, so it comes off as lazy design to anyone familiar with FF games.

Plain and simple - it needs a major design overhaul.

With all the CE sales, I really don't see a delay happening though. It would be a nightmare for SE PR-wise, and honestly, I think we all know the majority of players would rather jump in on the current release date and muddle through till it's tweaked further, than hear the news of a delay.

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 11:46am by Restyoneck
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"Don't take it personally man, white knights would eat a can of **** if the label said SE on it. If anyone dared mention that it was not a good product, they'd just argue if someone can't appreciate the subtle nuances in the ****, they should just go back to eating lolrealfood, cuz the devs prolly know more about canning food than they do."
#149 Sep 07 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Mithraspike wrote:
Game will be fine on release.

Tom thinks so too, he dont care about all you pessimistic/realistic guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qPpbVllX7M

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 11:46am by Mithraspike


ROFL that is halarious.
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#150 Sep 07 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Restyoneck wrote:
I know comparing it to XI gets the "This isn't XI" reponses, but developers ARE supposed to learn from their previous projects.
This was going to be the biggest deciding factor for me. Having seen how poorly SE across the board handled FFXI (marketing, customer support and outreach, development, etc.), FFXIV was going to be a tough litmus test for me to see if they had learned from their mistakes. Unfortunately, from what I've seen so far, absolutely nothing has changed. While the game is new, the marketing is nonexistent, SE is as xenophobic as ever, development is sluggish and unprofessional as numerous core problems continue unaddressed in this extremely critical final testing phase...

Again, I don't want FFXIV to fail. I want SE to care about succeeding, but unfortunately for them, they have not learned from any of their mistakes in FFXI, in several cases making new mistakes in FFXIV that weren't in FFXI (like getting rid of shortcuts to inventory/equipment/action menus!). Their business model is still "the customer should feel honored to use our product", and that isn't going to work for me.



Edited, Sep 7th 2010 10:57am by bsphil
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If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#151 Sep 07 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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While I don't think release will be pushed back, I do predict a great number of patches will occur during the first month.

In many ways the first month of free play will be extended testing, at full strength server load. I can see how some people would want a fully polished game at release. I plan to be patient through the first few months and watch as things improve.

There is no reason to get upset with people who are not liking the game or parts of the game. If some people do not want to play during this period, I would suggest waiting to subscribe until later. Chosing not to play at all based on a beta test seems less than fair, but the game's success will be based on subscription performance over a long time period. That time period will include a much different game than what will see at release.
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