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End game gear possible flawFollow

#1 Sep 05 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Default
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Let me start out by saying I have not had a chance in the beta but do have what I think is a decent question to ask that I haven't seen yet. If everyone will be leveling multiple classes with the more "hardcore" having all jobs maxed out at end game everyone is going to want the same gear. So "**** golden spear" drops in a kill or whatever the 10/10 ppl are going to want it. So my question is, has this been brought up and discussed and what is everyones thought on it ?
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#2 Sep 05 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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General class roles still exist. However, static class roles do not. Most mages will not be main tanks and will not want to go to melee in lieu of their damage spells they can only get with a specific weapon, etc.
#3 Sep 05 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
It's not going to be an issue in the mature guilds. If it becomes an issue, you bounce the loot whores and replace them. Your class is still defined by your weapon, regardless of which other abilities you may have equipped to round out your character. If you're showing up to events with a sword and shield, don't expect looting rights on staves and bows. Armor and accessories will still be suited to different roles. If you're tanking, you shouldn't expect to be receiving equal priority on damage gear as your players in damage roles. You get looting privileges on gear that suits your role and that's it. Any shell that allows it to become more convoluted than that is doomed to failure and daily visits from the drama llama.
#4 Sep 05 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I suppose your right most established end game guild/shells have enouf respect for eachother to make it work.
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#5 Sep 05 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
It's not going to be an issue in the mature guilds. If it becomes an issue, you bounce the loot whores and replace them. Your class is still defined by your weapon, regardless of which other abilities you may have equipped to round out your character. If you're showing up to events with a sword and shield, don't expect looting rights on staves and bows. Armor and accessories will still be suited to different roles. If you're tanking, you shouldn't expect to be receiving equal priority on damage gear as your players in damage roles. You get looting privileges on gear that suits your role and that's it. Any shell that allows it to become more convoluted than that is doomed to failure and daily visits from the drama llama.

Exactly. In XI people had multiple jobs that could use end game drops, but the general rule amongst most end game shells was you could only lot on gear that the class you brought to the event could use. So if you went to a dynamis event as a PLD you could only lot on PLD AF2 unless none of the PLDs needed the dropped gear then it became a free lot. I assume the same kind of rules would come into play in this game. So I wouldn't fret about this. Eng game shells will have some sort of system.
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#6 Sep 05 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Default
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Even in WoW (/shudder) there was the general rule of, stating the obvious here, you roll on the gear to fit the roll you entered the group/pug/raid as, period. Those who argued about it went buh bye.
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#7 Sep 05 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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i think gear ganna be base on 3 type , tanking , meleee(& maybe ranger?) & mage
if your playing a tank role (glad or pup or thm ) then u'll loot tank gear
same with melee and mage armor


easy and simple as that
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#8 Sep 05 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
I think he means with most leveling many classes at once, when decent gear drops not only will eveyone want it for greed's sake, but plenty of people will have as much use for it as one another.
#9 Sep 05 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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In XI you could level multiple jobs as well. The way most Upper Tier Endgame shells work is every member picks a main class, (its usually the class they use the most at events, but its not restricted to that) and you get to lot the gear that is the best for your class that you picked as your "main class". Most people pick the class they use the most (at events) to be their main class but sometimes, people do pick a class that they like the most or use outside of events.

The only rule is that whatever class you pick as your "main class" has to be leveled to the cap. This keeps people from picking a class that they haven't even leveled yet, and getting gear before those that do have and use that class. Then either every 6, 9, or 12 months you are allowed to switch your "main class" if you have the desire to change it. The link-shell I was in allowed you to change your "main class" every 6 months.

Also gear will have restrictions on which class can and cannot use it. Gear wont just be universal and allow all classes to use it. And, even if for say gear was universal and all classes could use most of it, then the ls leader and sack holders will discuss each big piece, and determine which job its best for, and then the people with that class as their "main class" gets to lot on it. Its called a Item priority list, and it just lists the classes in order that can lot on it.

Like ridill for example (just a example). Say the item priority list for that item was determined to be war>thf>drk>rdm (by the leader and sack holders). That means when it drop only the people with warrior as their "main class" can lot it, but if say all the wars already have it (or nobody with warrior as their main class is there), then the people with thf as their main class can lot it. And it goes so on and so on.


Edited, Sep 5th 2010 10:01pm by HocusP
#10 Sep 05 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
That's a bit strict, my LS would just help you if you asked for a party to get whatever piece of gear and expect the same in return which was never a problem.
#11 Sep 05 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think he means with most leveling many classes at once, when decent gear drops not only will eveyone want it for greed's sake, but plenty of people will have as much use for it as one another.


still endgame linkshell is serious bussiness lol.. when you join a endgame linkshell you join as a role
ether you are a tank or a DD or a mage , when gear drop you roll for what benefits the linkshell the most which is ur main role


now if u enter a linkshell as a tank and u lvl a DD class while in the linkshell, and would like loot DD gear.. you ether choice tank or DD gear but you cant loot on both

not all linkshell work like that but the successful endgame linkshell most likey will
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#12 Sep 05 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a bit strict, my LS would just help you if you asked for a party to get whatever piece of gear and expect the same in return which was never a problem.


we talking about gear that drops off HNMs when there things like 23hours respawn or 40-50 ppl and 3-4hours needed to defeat the HNMs(vrtra etc etc) things get to get strict lol
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#13 Sep 05 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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We don't know if good gear even drops in this game. I'm thinking that most good gear is crafted, and any NM mobs will just drop mats for it. If this is the case, then there is no problem really. Will have to see when the game releases.

On a side note, i hope it is this way. My brother once told me:
"In all Final Fantasy games, you got the gear to beat the boss, but in FF XI, you have to beat the boss, to get the gear. It just doesn't make sense."

Lets hope we can get the gear first.
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#14 Sep 05 2010 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I understand how ffxi endgame worked and in my opinion endgame gear was handled great by most shells, so I would expect the same would go here. I think I may just missunderstood the mechanics of the game I dident think of the fact that at endgame you will focus on a main class I was under the impression there wouldent be a focus on 1 class soo ya my question has been answered thanks :)
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#15 Sep 05 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
We don't know if good gear even drops in this game. I'm thinking that most good gear is crafted, and any NM mobs will just drop mats for it. If this is the case, then there is no problem really. Will have to see when the game releases.

On a side note, i hope it is this way. My brother once told me:
"In all Final Fantasy games, you got the gear to beat the boss, but in FF XI, you have to beat the boss, to get the gear. It just doesn't make sense."

Lets hope we can get the gear first.


it wouldnt work if we get the gear first to fight the boss?! we need to earn the gear for the boss to make it worth even fighting it

but i think it ganna be a good mix of both; crafted and rare/ex gear


remenber how Treasures of Aht Urhgan endgame was?! with the latter system that would take weeks to get top to fight the final boss? i think that how it ganna be ( i really hope it like that and not like sky or sea lol)


on a side note , think they going to add relic later on? does took ppl years to get

Edited, Sep 5th 2010 10:10pm by Ggrab
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#16 Sep 05 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
We don't know if good gear even drops in this game. I'm thinking that most good gear is crafted, and any NM mobs will just drop mats for it. If this is the case, then there is no problem really. Will have to see when the game releases.


Even if they just drop mats it still don't make a difference unless your in a sell/split link-shell. If your in a regular link-shell, you still have to have a structure (probably similar to mine) on who receives the item once the link-shell gets it crafted. Its pretty much the same thing, just involving a crafter instead of a direct drop.

Quote:
On a side note, i hope it is this way. My brother once told me:
"In all Final Fantasy games, you got the gear to beat the boss, but in FF XI, you have to beat the boss, to get the gear. It just doesn't make sense."


That's because other Final Fantasy games is not an MMO. In MMO's they know gear drives people, and they know people need an incentive to keep playing (aka keep paying) and use the content. Gear is the easy incentive to have people play longer and attempt the bosses. In single player rpgs players get the gear to beat the game, which is the incentive . In an MMO there is no such thing as "beating the game", so there is no incentive there or no goal. You now have to add in gear as the incentive to keep players having goals which keeps them playing and paying their subscription fee.

To sum it up, which model sounds better from a business point of view (the way MMOs make money). A system where players get gear (not from bosses) and then beat the bosses once and be done with it (aka quit). Or, A system where a player beats a boss that drops gear that they will have to beat at least 30 more times to get the whole set, and leaves you the option to continue to add gear through new bosses which keeps players playing and paying.
#17 Sep 05 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I wasn't aware that gear actually dropped period. Perhaps I'm just not killing the right mobs. The only way I've heard of getting new gear is by someone crafting it or by receiving it as a reward for completing levs. If gear does drop from mobs, I'd be interested in knowing what drops from who.
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#18 Sep 05 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I wasn't aware that gear actually dropped period. Perhaps I'm just not killing the right mobs. The only way I've heard of getting new gear is by someone crafting it or by receiving it as a reward for completing levs. If gear does drop from mobs, I'd be interested in knowing what drops from who.



we talking about endgame gear lol we dont know how endgame ganna work but we know that endgame is gear driven so most liky gear will drop off the endgame fights
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#19 Sep 05 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:
We don't know if good gear even drops in this game. I'm thinking that most good gear is crafted, and any NM mobs will just drop mats for it. If this is the case, then there is no problem really. Will have to see when the game releases.


Even if they just drop mats it still don't make a difference unless your in a sell/split link-shell. If your in a regular link-shell, you still have to have a structure (probably similar to mine) on who receives the item once the link-shell gets it crafted. Its pretty much the same thing, just involving a crafter instead of a direct drop.

Quote:
On a side note, i hope it is this way. My brother once told me:
"In all Final Fantasy games, you got the gear to beat the boss, but in FF XI, you have to beat the boss, to get the gear. It just doesn't make sense."


That's because other Final Fantasy games is not an MMO. In MMO's they know gear drives people, and they know people need an incentive to keep playing (aka keep paying) and use the content. Gear is the easy incentive to have people play longer and attempt the bosses. In single player rpgs players get the gear to beat the game, which is the incentive . In an MMO there is no such thing as "beating the game", so there is no incentive there or no goal. You now have to add in gear as the incentive to keep players having goals which keeps them playing and paying their subscription fee.

To sum it up, which model sounds better from a business point of view (the way MMOs make money). A system where players get gear (not from bosses) and then beat the bosses once and be done with it (aka quit). Or, A system where a player beats a boss that drops gear that they will have to beat at least 30 more times to get the whole set, and leaves you the option to continue to add gear through new bosses which keeps players playing and paying.


I get it man. I understand why they do it. Maybe it's time for a different approach? Maybe beating the boss will be the reward? After seeing Absolute Virtue, i can see SE taking this road. Get the awesome gear first, then try to beat the boss. The boss may drop some cool new stuff. Wouldn't it be cool if the boss dropped weapons.... for classes we don't know exist yet?
I am speculating, and sorry for that lol. My whole point was, I haven't seen any gear drop at all, therefore, i assume gear drops may be rare at this point.
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#20 Sep 05 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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It's not going to be an issue in the mature guilds. If it becomes an issue, you bounce the loot whores and replace them.


That doesn't seem very mature at all.
How about setting up a point or /point system (/point = leader decides who gets equipment) that prevents such abuse rather than kicking good members that take advantage of your guild's stupid loot system.

Edit: I'm actually a firm believer of letting the leader decide who gets what based upon attendance.
Someone may be asking for equipment for multiple jobs but put much more time in than other people.
The people who have attendance that high will usually cap out pretty fast anyway, at least if your doing events regularly and claiming often.
Who knows how the NM system will work in this game?

If your leader's abusing the /point system you can always reform or leave.

Edited, Sep 5th 2010 10:39pm by Osanshouo
#21 Sep 05 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
We don't know if good gear even drops in this game. I'm thinking that most good gear is crafted, and any NM mobs will just drop mats for it. If this is the case, then there is no problem really. Will have to see when the game releases.


Even if they just drop mats it still don't make a difference unless your in a sell/split link-shell. If your in a regular link-shell, you still have to have a structure (probably similar to mine) on who receives the item once the link-shell gets it crafted. Its pretty much the same thing, just involving a crafter instead of a direct drop.

Quote:
On a side note, i hope it is this way. My brother once told me:
"In all Final Fantasy games, you got the gear to beat the boss, but in FF XI, you have to beat the boss, to get the gear. It just doesn't make sense."


That's because other Final Fantasy games is not an MMO. In MMO's they know gear drives people, and they know people need an incentive to keep playing (aka keep paying) and use the content. Gear is the easy incentive to have people play longer and attempt the bosses. In single player rpgs players get the gear to beat the game, which is the incentive . In an MMO there is no such thing as "beating the game", so there is no incentive there or no goal. You now have to add in gear as the incentive to keep players having goals which keeps them playing and paying their subscription fee.

To sum it up, which model sounds better from a business point of view (the way MMOs make money). A system where players get gear (not from bosses) and then beat the bosses once and be done with it (aka quit). Or, A system where a player beats a boss that drops gear that they will have to beat at least 30 more times to get the whole set, and leaves you the option to continue to add gear through new bosses which keeps players playing and paying.


I get it man. I understand why they do it. Maybe it's time for a different approach? Maybe beating the boss will be the reward? After seeing Absolute Virtue, i can see SE taking this road. Get the awesome gear first, then try to beat the boss. The boss may drop some cool new stuff. Wouldn't it be cool if the boss dropped weapons.... for classes we don't know exist yet?
I am speculating, and sorry for that lol. My whole point was, I haven't seen any gear drop at all, therefore, i assume gear drops may be rare at this point.



a different aproadch will be to make endgame a labber table system that it take weeks to clear and the top boss let everybody choice a 1 single piece of armor for there

in order to get a fullset , we'll have to clear the top boss multiply times =]


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#22 Sep 05 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I get it man. I understand why they do it. Maybe it's time for a different approach? Maybe beating the boss will be the reward? After seeing Absolute Virtue, i can see SE taking this road. Get the awesome gear first, then try to beat the boss. The boss may drop some cool new stuff. Wouldn't it be cool if the boss dropped weapons.... for classes we don't know exist yet?
I am speculating, and sorry for that lol. My whole point was, I haven't seen any gear drop at all, therefore, i assume gear drops may be rare at this point.


Beating the boss will never be the reward if you understand the player-base that play MMOs. The reason why Absolute Virtue is a hot topic is not because its so hard to beat and thats the reward, it's because he drops some of the best items in the game. The speed sash in itself is groundbreaking with haste along with the other gear it drops. If he didn't drop anything, people wouldn't even bother killing it, which is why HNMS like jorm and hydra etc, just be up walking around all day (and at least they drop materials).

Also classes will be known because of dat mines. Just like we know about classes like fencer, mystic, enforcer, etc even though they won't be in for release. Once Mobs are added there drops are dat mined by the players and thats how we know what they drop before they are ever even defeated. So it wouldn't be a surprise to the players.

Another problem with this is that not everybody participates in endgame. This would mean a lot of your casual audience (which is your target audience) wouldn't be able to play the new classes. This will hurt your market and is why stuff like classes is available to all and stuff like gear is the incentive. Casuals understand that they won't have the best gear so it is the perfect incentive. Casuals will not be okay with not being able to play new classes because they drop from HNMs though, and that is your target audience.

So to sum it up...

1. There has to be an incentive or people will not do the content.
2. The incentive cannot be detrimental to your target audience (like putting new classes on Endgame HNM content)
3. Its an approach that works and makes the most sense when you look at it from all angles.
4. The incentive to kill the bosses can not totally kill 1 group of core players (like new classes from HNM big bosses) but it also has to be good enough to give people motivation to keep playing. Gear is the perfect bridge (at least to companies it is) to allow both sides to be happy.

I'm not against a different approach but I don't see one that works if you think about it logically from a business standpoint. They have to keep you playing without upsetting a huge portion of there player-base in the process. Maybe HNMs could drop skills instead of gear (like new weapon skills or magic spells), but I dont see casuals taking that well either. The majority of the content has to be accessible to your largest crowd (which is casuals), with enough hardcore content as well to keep your hardcore base happy. Gear does the trick in keeping hardcore players happy.
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