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AH (Can I have it?)Follow

#52 Sep 06 2010 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Having to run to another city to get ******* shoes because there was no AH and no NPC in down that sold them.

Actually being able to run to another city at lvl 1 in around 15 minutes without encountering anything dangerous.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#53 Sep 06 2010 at 3:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Refresherize wrote:
If unscrupulous individuals are gaming an efficient free market exchange, the solution isn't to shut down the exchange... it's to deal with the unscrupulous individuals.


Something like 80% of trades are now made by computers trading with other computers.

A few times the market has crashed do to one of these programs wigging out and they actually did shut everything down.




Human makes a mistake = your screwed

Big company's stock exchange AI makes a mistake = no problem, we'll give you a do-over.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#54 Sep 06 2010 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
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Soezu wrote:
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An AH doesn't create problems, it only provides an accurate local pricing model for goods being sold.


This is the biggest crock of sh*t I ever heard lol

AH is the MAIN SOURCE of RMT gil. Not only that it's how RMT CONTROL THE MARKET. RMT are like pharmaceutical companies these days. If they can control the market, they will make MILLIONS. And they will do anything and everything they can to control the market. Auction House is their primary tool for that.

See not only do RMT MAKE gil, RMT also try to prevent everyone else from MAKING gil




Edited, Sep 6th 2010 3:23am by Soezu


If you have retainers with a search function that is essentially an AH by a different name. I fail to see how that will stop RMT.

No AH makes the game unplayable. It sure will stop the RMT though because nobody will be playing this game.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#55 Sep 06 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
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The economy will be super tight and with no RMT access to this ah , it wouldn't stop them 100% but it be sure slow them down by alot


I love the idea of a company AH but lets be honest here, RMT will just make their own company lol...some justice that would be.
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#56 Sep 06 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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If you have retainers with a search function that is essentially an AH by a different name. I fail to see how that will stop RMT.


Nothing will stop RMT. But having just a search engine for the retainers would definately slow them down significantly. Did you even read my previous posts? I'll say it again. The more you complicate RMT's the harder it is for them to bot. If there was the system we have now with only a search engine that told you which vendors are selling the item you want, you'd still have to goto the zones to buy that said item. Good luck programming a bot to buy low sell high 24 hours a day if he has to switch zones and manually buy items from NPC's rather than standing in 1 spot at an auction house.

I dont see how some of you arent seeing this.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 9:07am by Soezu
#57 Sep 06 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Default
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I love the idea of a company AH but lets be honest here, RMT will just make their own company lol...some justice that would be


What would their own company do if they can only sell to each other? lol...

Company A can only buy from company A
Company B can only buy from company B
Company C can only buy from company C
Company RMT can only buy from RMT

You could even go as far as allowing companies to unite. So unite company A with company C. This would basically put the market in the hands of the players, assuming none of the linkshells or companies are stupid enough to recruit a gillseller.
#58 Sep 06 2010 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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oh yea stupid me hahah missed that part or just wasn't thinking, that's a great idea i hope they do it that way.
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#59 Sep 06 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Soezu wrote:

Even if they did make bots, they STILL wouldnt make NEARLY as much money as if they just stood in 1 spot. Think about it...

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 2:35am by Soezu



Or they could just position hack to the spot and save themselves a lot of time. They're already doing that in XI.
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#60 Sep 06 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I am not familiar with the RMT problems with FFXI, but I am not sure I understand how it could have been so bad that anyone is willing to put up with something like this.

WoW has an AH, and while WoW has RMTs running rampant, they don't destroy the economy. Likewise with EQ2. Perhaps instead of taking a "Just Say No" attitude to a centralized market, you need to look at the root cause of RMT ruining the FFXI market. There had to be another game mechanic causing it in addition to the auction house.


edit: alternatively, Square just didn't police their market effectively.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 4:43pm by snkline
#61 Sep 06 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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I don't recall this even being about RMT, since Retainers = Mule and selling & buying. Players did far more harm than RMTs ever did in XI's days (look at new items for example, for some reason because it's new it has to be worth millions even if it takes you all of 10 minutes to acquire.)

A search function would go a very long way if they stick with this because it's pretty much what the Auction house is as the only advantage the AH has over the retainers would be a dedicated price when comparing the two because supply even on AH's varies greatly.
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#62 Sep 06 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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I want to start a linkshell based on pure communism now. Anyone with me?
#63Gadhelyn, Posted: Sep 06 2010 at 4:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Forgive me if someone's said this already.
#64 Sep 06 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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People are not complaining because they can't sell stuff on an AH in beta. People are complaining because they know there won't be one when the game goes live, and realize that this will utterly destroy the economy.

People can't even hawk their wares on trade channels because such a thing doesn't exist. Square will be forced to put one in, we all know it. There is no need to "wait and see" as Square wants to do. Anyone with half a brain can see that this stupid bazaar of retainers will fail horribly.

Everyone can suggest various middle grounds between a fully centralized broker system and what exists now. But why bother really? There is absolutely nothing wrong with an auction house. Think of it like a stock market. On the NYSE, NASDAQ or AMEX, the price of stocks tends to fluctuate smoothly because there is a high amount of liquidity. This means that when I want to buy Ford, I can buy Ford. Try trading Pink Sheets sometime. Because they are not traded on a centralized exchange these types of stocks tend to fluctuate in big bursts. One trade of the stock might be made at 2.00 a share, then next at 2.50, the next at 1.00.

At best the FFXIV economy will be like that, and I doubt it will even be that robust.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 6:33pm by snkline
#65 Sep 06 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Default
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snkline wrote:
People are not complaining because they can't sell stuff on an AH in beta. People are complaining because they know there won't be one when the game goes live, and realize that this will utterly destroy the economy.


How do any of you know with absolute certainty until we actually try getting the player economy started is all I'm asking. If the economy doesn't take off I'm sure SE will open the AH.
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#66 Sep 06 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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How do you propose this player economy work?

There are no trade channels for people to advertise their wares. Even if there were, such things tend to be horrible, as hundreds of people are trying to buy and sell stuff at the exact same time. What you are going to get at release is SPAMMED in /say and /shout as soon as you enter the main city, and probably out in the wilderness too.

Relying on community site forums for each server is little better. You still have to go to the site, find what you need, who is selling it and where there retainer is, and then find the retainer itself in the warren of thousands of the things standing around the Bazaar.

Ask yourself something. Why does almost every other MMO nowadays have an auction house system? I'll tell you, MMO designers have wrestled with this issue before, and the solution they have found in common is the need for a centralized market. Not having one was fine in the predecessor to MMOs, MUDs, because the number of users online at one time was comparatively small. But when you have thousands or tens of thousands of people playing simultaneously.... then you need that centralized marketplace.
#67 Sep 06 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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having wandered around the market wards area, I'm almost positive that SE didn't even consider rmt when they decided against the AH system. They're pretty sure the idea of wicked awesome retainer stalls is better than an AH system. As if we'll really be interested in going to "squall lionheart"s stall to see what the new 'it' weapon is.


they're wrong, it sucks, wait it out, we'll have a real AH soon as they realize that 90% of retainers are just seeking crystals and crafting mats at 1/4 the going rate, and that its impossible to find new gear. Rank 30s in starter gear will be complaining by halloween.
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#68 Sep 06 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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So it's a problem of advertising. How about an alchemist linkshell in each server? Or an armorer or blacksmith linkshell. Or a list of people who are of certain level in a certain craft that you can refer to when you need something? What I think SE was originally thinking isn't an instant satisfaction economy, but one where you have to actually interact with people to get what you want. Whether this will work or not I don't know, nor can I know yet. I am just advocating giving it a try. From how I've read the interviews concerning AHs, they are prepared to put one in if it proves necessary.
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#69 Sep 06 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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snkline wrote:
How do you propose this player economy work?

There are no trade channels for people to advertise their wares. Even if there were, such things tend to be horrible, as hundreds of people are trying to buy and sell stuff at the exact same time. What you are going to get at release is SPAMMED in /say and /shout as soon as you enter the main city, and probably out in the wilderness too.

Relying on community site forums for each server is little better. You still have to go to the site, find what you need, who is selling it and where there retainer is, and then find the retainer itself in the warren of thousands of the things standing around the Bazaar.

Ask yourself something. Why does almost every other MMO nowadays have an auction house system? I'll tell you, MMO designers have wrestled with this issue before, and the solution they have found in common is the need for a centralized market. Not having one was fine in the predecessor to MMOs, MUDs, because the number of users online at one time was comparatively small. But when you have thousands or tens of thousands of people playing simultaneously.... then you need that centralized marketplace.


They also generally don't become implemented till a bit after release.
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#70 Sep 06 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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How do any of you know with absolute certainty until we actually try getting the player economy started is all I'm asking. If the economy doesn't take off I'm sure SE will open the AH.


There will be no economy because nobody hates their life so much that they would spend three hours searching every retainer in a small room for one specific item that they want. If you haven't experienced the horror that the market ward system is, let me describe it for you...

You teleport to a room with dozens of NPC retainers standing around. You search every one of them manually (waiting on interface lag) and scan through their wares. Then you take a dozen steps in another direction, whereupon another few dozen retainers load up because you can only have so many characters on screen at once. You search through them all manually again. Continue this process another ten times as you work your way across the room, bouncing into invisible, unloaded NPCs. Good luck finding something specific, and goodbye to an hour of your life.

Simply using the system one time is enough to convince any sane person that an economy cannot function like this. It's tedious, poorly designed, and makes finding an item more difficult than spamming shout chat for what item you'd like to buy. When the economy invariably doesn't take off, I'm sure SE will open an AH or the equivalent search feature for market wards, but what are people supposed to do in the meantime? This is a colossally stupid decision on SE's part, and it's already been solved by other games. There's no need to wait to see what this system will do, many other games have already had these same problems and solved them. How many months of development are you willing to spend paying for a game that can't solve problems which shouldn't even be problems in the first place?

It's like buying a car with square tires and trusting the dealership when they say they'll evaluate feedback on their square tire system and make changes as necessary. It shouldn't even be an issue. Just put some round tires on; there's a reason why the wheel hasn't changed in thousands of years.
#71 Sep 06 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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They also generally don't become implemented till a bit after release.


Not in any recent releases that I recall. Why? Because the designers have learned from the past. Why did games that didn't have one put one in? Because they realized they needed one.
#72 Sep 06 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I strongly want an AH but I could live without one if retainers are searchable. I still think that the AH is better.

Every car owner ever wrote:
We love how the wheels work on our cars


SE wrote:
Wheels can be exploited by RMT. Our cars will not have wheels.


My least favorite part of FFXI events were the Christmas/Easter/Halloween stuff where you had to try to check 20 different bazaars for the one item you needed. I do not want to spend the next 5-10 years of my life doing this every single day, both to find out how much an item is worth when I want to sell it and to find an item to buy it, for every item I want to buy, ever. It is a horrible idea and the person who thought it up should be taken out back and beaten.

I had three other people I planned to start XIV with. Two of them already canceled their preorders over the whole surplus XP garbage and I'm trying to talk them into playing (They're in the beta, at least). Now my fiancee, also in the beta, is so livid over the lack of an AH that -she- is about to cancel her preorder too.
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#73 Sep 06 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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I had three other people I planned to start XIV with. Two of them already canceled their preorders over the whole surplus XP garbage and I'm trying to talk them into playing (They're in the beta, at least). Now my fiancee, also in the beta, is so livid over the lack of an AH that -she- is about to cancel her preorder too.


And this right here is why all the criticisms you hear across the net matter! People may talk about how they want to keep out the "WoW players", and how much better the game will be if it isn't made more intuitive and easy interact with. But all those people are doing is preventing a vibrant community from forming for this game.

This whole argument reminds me once again of Vanguard. I remember the many arguments on the forums I had with people who argued voraciously against having things like an Auction House, or.... I kid you not.... an ingame map. See an ingame map destroys immersion kids, and would make the game easymode like WoW.

So remember everyone, you might want crappy controls and an unresponsive UI to keep to WoW kiddies away, but dagnabbit, the presence of an ingame map, makes FFXIV just as easymode as WoW. More even! WoW doesn't show you where mobs are on the minimap! How anyone can like a game more userfriendly than WoW is beyond me ;)

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 7:32pm by snkline
#74Soezu, Posted: Sep 06 2010 at 6:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) We dont need a crappy UI to keep the wowtards away. Soon as they realize you cant jump in circles around stuff spamming 1 button while listening to Cannibal Corpse, they'll be gone.
#75 Sep 06 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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snkline wrote:
Quote:
I had three other people I planned to start XIV with. Two of them already canceled their preorders over the whole surplus XP garbage and I'm trying to talk them into playing (They're in the beta, at least). Now my fiancee, also in the beta, is so livid over the lack of an AH that -she- is about to cancel her preorder too.


And this right here is why all the criticisms you hear across the net matter! People may talk about how they want to keep out the "WoW players", and how much better the game will be if it isn't made more intuitive and easy interact with. But all those people are doing is preventing a vibrant community from forming for this game.

This whole argument reminds me once again of Vanguard. I remember the many arguments on the forums I had with people who argued voraciously against having things like an Auction House, or.... I kid you not.... an ingame map. See an ingame map destroys immersion kids, and would make the game easymode like WoW.

So remember everyone, you might want crappy controls and an unresponsive UI to keep to WoW kiddies away, but dagnabbit, the presence of an ingame map, makes FFXIV just as easymode as WoW. More even! WoW doesn't show you where mobs are on the minimap! How anyone can like a game more userfriendly than WoW is beyond me ;)


I consider myself on the "keep the wowtards out" bandwagon, but not at the expense of ease of use. There's a difference between "making the game easy" and "making the game easy to use".

Again, I'm fully in support of leaving out things like jump and PvP just so that it causes an inherent "WoWtard barrier", but the huge flaw with making the game intentionally cumbersome "just to keep people out" is that they'll leave but we won't, and WE'LL be the ones having to deal with the intentionally cumbersome game for years to come.

I put Ubuntu on my laptop just to keep people who can't think outside of a start menu and Internet Explorer from using it, but I'm not going to leave terminal open 24/7 and run everything from command line just to keep it "noob free".

Like I said, there's a difference between a "easy game" and a "game that is easy to use". I definitely don't want the first, but I don't see why we need to preclude ourselves from the second.

I mean, ****, while we're at it, why not just make players login to FFXIV via command line instead of letting them clik on an icon on the desktop? We don't want it to be easy to play, right?
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#76 Sep 06 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I mean, ****, while we're at it, why not just make players login to FFXIV via command line instead of letting them clik on an icon on the desktop? We don't want it to be easy to play, right?


Well like i said earlier in the post, i think no auction house is more to limit the ways in which RMT make mass quantities of gil. If you played FFXI in its prime you would know that RMT's were probably the worste in mmo history. Not only did they control the market, they started controlling r/e drops as well, and selling those off to people.

While I agree having no AH wont STOP the RMT's, but it will hinder them a LOT. If there was a search function for the wards i think most people would be happy/content with not having an auction house. The ones that wont be happy are the ones that make their money playing the market like RMT's do (Buying low selling high). But you'll still be able to do it, it just wont be as simple as 2 clicks to make 1000 gil. You'll actually have to shop around.

The only problem with the system as is, is the fact that you cant search for what you want. If a search engine directed us which vendor in which ward to go to, would it really be all that bad? It would also let people set their own prices for things. I all honesty price histoy in FFXI proved to be very bad, because people would buy/sell to each other just to inflate the prices.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:51pm by Soezu
#77 Sep 06 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I consider myself on the "keep the wowtards out" bandwagon, but not at the expense of ease of use. There's a difference between "making the game easy" and "making the game easy to use".


I'm glad. For some reason a lot of people do confuse the two. Though I would use the term, easy to play instead of easy to use. What most people don't understand IMO is that WoW didn't succeed because it was easy, it succeeded because it was easy to play. Yes, it also happens to be easy, but that is really beside the point. There have been plenty of MMOs released since WoW which were just as easy, but are not easy to play.

FFXIV is not easy to play, but it is easy. I've never feared for my life fighting a freakin' Marmot! (Another pet peeve of mine with many MMOs, why am I a master of the forces of nature, starting off my adventuring career killing rodents....) But it is not easy to play. Doing just about anything is arduous. The combat is okay but every other thing is a chore. They shouldn't be. Crafting should be challenging because things are happening that you have to respond to in a skillful manner. It shouldn't be challenging because getting the items into their slots is a serious investment of time, or because you don't know what the **** determines how likely you chances of success are. It shouldn't be challenging because you have to leave the game to find out the **** ingredients for a recipe! Selling items shouldn't be a chore. Repairing gear shouldn't be a chore.

But they ARE! The people who see these as good things are the ones I cannot understand. It should be patently obvious that selling junk from my inventory should not take me 5 minutes. There is no enjoyment in selling junk, so it should take almost NO time. Repairing gear should not be an exercise in anything. If you must have a gil-sink in repairs, have it be a gil-sink. Don't make me go through the hassle of unequiping, changing class, finding item, entering crafting mode, finding repair mat, repairing, then re-equiping the **** item. And especially don't make me go through the **** process with every **** piece of gear I own.

And finally, don't make me go through a room filled with hundreds of retainers trying to find one **** item!

There, rant over :)
#78 Sep 06 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Default
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I'm pretty confident that the UI lag will be fixed within a month or 2. I know one thing, im not crafting until it's gone. I just got so mad when crafting because of how long it took to get materials together, how long it took to do something as simple as prepare for a synth etc. But i'm confident that stuff will be fixed after launch. If they are fixed FOR launch ill be greatly surprised.

But I still believe the retainer system can work absolutely great. It just needs a search function. I'm positive SE has all this stuff in the works. They would be really REALLY stupid not to. It's making an amazing game feel like a mediocre game.

On a side note I absolutely love everything about this game that works. The things that are a chore are things that shouldnt even be a factor in this day and age. (UI lag, skill response time)

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 9:09pm by Soezu
#79 Sep 06 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Soezu wrote:
The things that are a chore are things that shouldnt even be a factor in this day and age. (UI lag, skill response time)
That's what makes it so disappointing. Developers shouldn't be releasing games this buggy in 2010.
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#80 Sep 06 2010 at 7:11 PM Rating: Default
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That's what makes it so disappointing. Developers shouldn't be releasing games this buggy in 2010.


With that in mind though, just think of how great the game will be when these things are polished.
#81 Sep 06 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Soezu wrote:
Quote:
That's what makes it so disappointing. Developers shouldn't be releasing games this buggy in 2010.
With that in mind though, just think of how great the game will be when these things are polished.
If they're fixed, not when. And still not that great, take out the horrid UI, patch the hardware mouse, optimize the code to improve performance/lower system requirements, fix auto-disconnecting, add the AH, remove the fatigue system, made the skills look unique... it'll still have dull gameplay. What they have right now shouldn't even be a public release.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#82 Sep 06 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
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If they're fixed, not when. And still not that great, take out the horrid UI, patch the hardware mouse, optimize the code to improve performance/lower system requirements, fix auto-disconnecting, add the AH, remove the fatigue system, made the skills look unique... it'll still have dull gameplay. What they have right now shouldn't even be a public release.

I'm using a hardware mouse as we speak. Just download the manual patch.

I like the UI. (aside from menu lag)

Id rather a search function on retainers than an ah.

I dont mind the fatigue system, will prevent grouping with people that have no sub jobs.

Dull gameplay? I assume you just arent a FF fan. To each his own I guess. I know if they fixed the ui lag, and added a search function to the market wards, This would be my favourite mmo I ever launched.

To each his own right? If everything was fixed and you still found it dull and boring, then I really dont think this game is for you.

Side note: I find it hilarious people are judging a games difficulty/fun factor on the first 10-20 levels of solo play. Obvious MMO rookies if they think a game like this starts out with a bang.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 9:20pm by Soezu
#83 Sep 06 2010 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Soezu wrote:
Dull gameplay? I assume you just arent a FF fan.
My collection of FF games and years spent playing FFXI would disagree.

Currently I'm hoping that by next spring/summer, the game will be overhauled to a point where it's worth playing.



Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:22pm by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#84 Sep 06 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Default
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What exactly did you find so different from FFXI's first 20 levels that was much more exciting?

I also played FFXI for 5 years and to me they are very similar in certain areas. Actually more fast paced in combat honestly.

to be honest one of my favourite things about this game is just the similarities to FFXI. I feel at home, yet I feel like im playaing a new game at the same time.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 9:26pm by Soezu
#85 Sep 06 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Soezu wrote:
What exactly did you find so different from FFXI's first 20 levels that was much more exciting?
Hard to put my finger on it for now. I was interested in leveling when I started FFXI. FFXIV is such a boring chore that I haven't been able to log on and level for more than 30 minutes at a time.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#86 Sep 06 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, I dont really see the difference from XI compared to XIV in the first 10-20 levels as far as "excitement".

Im personally enjoying it more simply because it's a blast from the past with kick *** new visuals lol.

Again, to each his own i guess, i just dont see how someone that played FFXI for so long could not like this lol.
#87 Sep 06 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
SE is going to be the RMT of this game. You log into SE's website and you'll be buying coins with real money that you can use to buy items in game....
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#88 Sep 06 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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If they have a search function with the retainer system, wouldn't the bazaars be, in essence, a visual representation of an AH? Wouldn't it be the same functionality?
#89 Sep 06 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I, for one, will not bounce around, from retainer to retainer, for any lengthy period of time. If I need an item and can't find it, I'll try to farm it.
But... is it the purpose of the game devs for us to make everything we need or ls mates need by ourselves? A barter system basically? So, if we need something that no one in our ls can make, we've got to find another ls/company and make a deal with them?
This makes my head hurt. I think it may also be a gamebreaker.
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#90 Sep 06 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Having to run to another city to get @#%^ing shoes because there was no AH and no NPC in down that sold them.

Actually being able to run to another city at lvl 1 in around 15 minutes without encountering anything dangerous


I think 15 minutes is quite the exaggeration when running from 1 city to another lol.

By the way SE has also said numerous times that vendors are limited in beta simply to encourage crafters to craft more at first.

I ran from 1 city to another, but i actually explored. SE has also said that mob placement has been significantly nerfed in beta just to allow people to do what you just did in "15 minutes"
#91 Sep 06 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
snkline wrote:
I am not familiar with the RMT problems with FFXI, but I am not sure I understand how it could have been so bad that anyone is willing to put up with something like this.

WoW has an AH, and while WoW has RMTs running rampant, they don't destroy the economy. Likewise with EQ2. Perhaps instead of taking a "Just Say No" attitude to a centralized market, you need to look at the root cause of RMT ruining the FFXI market. There had to be another game mechanic causing it in addition to the auction house.


edit: alternatively, Square just didn't police their market effectively.


That's the crux of it...SE failed to address RMT in a timely fashion, so RMT ran rampant and even after SE started to get on the ball about it, too many people had had their experience severely tarnished. So much so, in fact, that they can't conceive of a company that can handle RMT without actually having to make the game worse for legitimate players.

Believe me, folks...you don't have to volunteer to have SE ruin the game just to deal with RMT. No other MMO company does...nobody here has to play the *********/martyr in the name of combating RMT. And omitting something like an auction system specifically to keep RMT at bay? ROFL.

Just...ROFL.

RMT will be present in any game where players buy currency. Period. Silly hypotheses about what may or may not drive them out don't make the game better, and doing away with extremely helpful and enriching systems just because RMT might abuse them is stupid. Did you know that RMT can also farm mobs and sell the drops in a bazaar to earn gil? I guess that means we should make it so you can't fight anything anymore, or that if you kill something...anything...it never drops anything. That'll fix those devious RMT.... And gathering? Gone. RMT might abuse it. Any form of item/currency exchange between players? Gone. If RMT can't give you the gil, you're not going to buy it, and if you're not going to buy it, they're not going to stick around and try to farm it. Problem solved.
#92 Sep 06 2010 at 9:03 PM Rating: Default
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There's a difference between "driving RMT out" and crippling their success at controlling the games market. RMT wont be able to make NEARLY as much gil with the retainer system as they would with a typical auctionhouse. This will in turn drive the price of gil up, and make people think twice about buying gil that they could make themselves with ease.

FFXI was so bad because RMT not only controlled the market, but they also prevented players from making gil. SE seems to be trying their best to address both issues, with guildleves, retainer system, harvesting minigames, random resource node spawns etc.

None of this really takes away from the game for any players assuming they eventually add a search engine for the retainers. That's the only issue I see really. Other than that, the steps they are taking to slow down the RMT are absolutely genius in my opinion.
#93 Sep 07 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Soezu wrote:
There's a difference between "driving RMT out" and crippling their success at controlling the games market. RMT wont be able to make NEARLY as much gil with the retainer system as they would with a typical auctionhouse. This will in turn drive the price of gil up, and make people think twice about buying gil that they could make themselves with ease.

FFXI was so bad because RMT not only controlled the market, but they also prevented players from making gil. SE seems to be trying their best to address both issues, with guildleves, retainer system, harvesting minigames, random resource node spawns etc.

None of this really takes away from the game for any players assuming they eventually add a search engine for the retainers. That's the only issue I see really. Other than that, the steps they are taking to slow down the RMT are absolutely genius in my opinion.


No, XI was bad because it was a grindfest. It was bad because SE took altogether too long to start addressing it. It was bad because the convenience of the auction house far outstripped the tedium of farming everything yourself. That meant that RMT could buy cheap and flip at inflated prices that people would still pay because even a massive inflation spike wasn't enough to make them feel like they were better off heading out into the field and gathering items/materials and skipping the AH altogether.

You can't blame the auction house for the RMT issues in XI. The RMT issue in XI was part of a much, much bigger picture. Take a look at gathering in XI. It was terrible. Dull, tedious, and typically overrun by RMT mine/fish/farm bots. Farming...was terrible. Low drop rates all around. If it was worth farming, everyone farmed it until it was overcamped and the market was flooded, at which point it stopped being worth it to try and farm it. If you take a process and make it as tedious as you think you can get away with, people are going to start looking for shortcuts. Some of them are going to buy gil. Some of them are going to **** and grown and mumble about inflated auction house prices...while they're waiting to see if they won their bid at triple the previous price because even inflated but accessible was better than going out and farming it yourself.

Give players options and make as many of them as possible as entertaining as possible and then when they go to the AH/market wards and see things selling for four times the price they were last week, they're more likely to say, "pffft...I'm not paying that...I'll go farm my own." In XI, they said, "OMFG I can't win!!"
#94 Sep 07 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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I think there needs to be an automatically managed AH, more like what Guild Wars has. Guild Wars automatically sets the price for items based on how many are being bought and sold. That way you don't have to deal with gilsellers maniuplating the market by undercutting everyone, or buying up all of an item and reselling them for more.
#95 Sep 07 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
So it's a problem of advertising. How about an alchemist linkshell in each server? Or an armorer or blacksmith linkshell. Or a list of people who are of certain level in a certain craft that you can refer to when you need something?


That won't work as the number of people in a linkshell is limited.

With the game as currently set-up, I can't think of any feasible way to trade in FFXIV. The best I've come up with is using a third party website (Zam server forum?) to advertise the contents and location of your retainer. That's a terrible solution at best, and if they are worried about RMT, SE really don't want people having to use third party websites for basic trade.

On the plus side, it's becoming more clear that this isn't the real launch. That will come with the PS3 release next year. Hopefully they will have sorted out things a bit more by then.
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#96 Sep 07 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Soezu wrote:
There's a difference between "driving RMT out" and crippling their success at controlling the games market. RMT wont be able to make NEARLY as much gil with the retainer system as they would with a typical auctionhouse. This will in turn drive the price of gil up, and make people think twice about buying gil that they could make themselves with ease.


That will be because with no player economy there will be nothing to buy with gil, so gil will be worthless.

Quote:
FFXI was so bad because RMT not only controlled the market, but they also prevented players from making gil. SE seems to be trying their best to address both issues, with guildleves, retainer system, harvesting minigames, random resource node spawns etc.


RMT did not control the market in FFXI. It was easy to make money through trade in FFXI. The real problem with the gilsellers was hogging limited game resources (e.g. NM spawns), and as you say, FFXIV may be better there.

Quote:
None of this really takes away from the game for any players assuming they eventually add a search engine for the retainers. That's the only issue I see really. Other than that, the steps they are taking to slow down the RMT are absolutely genius in my opinion.


The problem is that these steps don't just slow down RMT, they slow down everyone. And SE had better hope that there are more real players playing FFXIV than there are RMT.
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#97 Sep 07 2010 at 1:50 AM Rating: Good
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Soezu wrote:
One of the main problems in FFXI was RMTs controlling the market. It was RMT's controlling rare drops by hacking to ensure they get that Serket Ring. If you take away RMT control, sure they will always be there, but they wont be game breaking like they were in FFXI. If any system implemented costs me a slight bit of convenience yet greatly MINIMIZES RMT activity Id be all for it.


I am seeing a lot of replies like this in here. Have the people making post like this played FFXI in the last 2 years? The only people "hacking" are large LS that bot, those people are mostly not RMT(I say mostly because some of those shells have, in the past sold gil to the RMT sites for them to resell).

This retainer system as it is today will fail horribly if they do not improve it by launch or add an AH. Ever crafted in FFXI? It will take you longer to find items in bazaars than it would to just go farm them up your self.

The bazaar zones in FFXI came to be a necessity because of non-AHable pop items and the tax involved in selling high priced slow moving items. SE thought making sky pops non-AHable would stop RMT from farming/selling them. Did it? No. I applaud SE for its efforts to control and eliminate RMT but the RMT have shown if you cut off their head two new ones will pop up tomorrow. This system is far to inconveniencing to be worth eliminating one small RMT farming method. I don't want upgrading a gear slot to turn into a 2 hour endeavor because I need to search 1000 bazaars, and as far as I see it, at higher levels if the crafting system follows FFXI(like it seems to be IMO) it will be a major time sink to just gather what you need.
#98Soezu, Posted: Sep 07 2010 at 1:55 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Did you even read the thread? Ot just the first and last post?
#99 Sep 07 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Soezu wrote:
Quote:
I am seeing a lot of replies like this in here. Have the people making post like this played FFXI in the last 2 years? The only people "hacking" are large LS that bot, those people are mostly not RMT(I say mostly because some of those shells have, in the past sold gil to the RMT sites for them to resell).

This retainer system as it is today will fail horribly if they do not improve it by launch or add an AH. Ever crafted in FFXI? It will take you longer to find items in bazaars than it would to just go farm them up your self.

The bazaar zones in FFXI came to be a necessity because of non-AHable pop items and the tax involved in selling high priced slow moving items. SE thought making sky pops non-AHable would stop RMT from farming/selling them. Did it? No. I applaud SE for its efforts to control and eliminate RMT but the RMT have shown if you cut off their head two new ones will pop up tomorrow. This system is far to inconveniencing to be worth eliminating one small RMT farming method. I don't want upgrading a gear slot to turn into a 2 hour endeavor because I need to search 1000 bazaars, and as far as I see it, at higher levels if the crafting system follows FFXI(like it seems to be IMO) it will be a major time sink to just gather what you need.


Did you even read the thread? Ot just the first and last post?

How would the retainer system fail if they added a search engine that told you which ward, and which vendor is selling what you're looking for?

Why does it have to be an auction house? Please try thinking outside the box.

The only reason there are little to no RMT in FFXI anymore is simply because it's a dead game. Anyone already playing it is established and no longer needs mass quantities of gil.

The retainer system allows people to make their own prices. There's no RMT's purposely undercutting a sh*t ton, then buying everything out and then jacking the price up significantly to turn a gigantic profit. Like i've said like 30 times in this thread, if the retainer system had a search function it would be FINE. We wouldnt need an auction house.

edit: it just sounds like some people have lost all hope in the war against RMT's. Either that, or they're gil buyers.

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 4:00am by Soezu


Who said there will be a search engine? Please show me where SE has said this so I may read it! Oh you can't? Why not? OH CAUSE THEY HAVEN'T SAID THERE WILL BE ONE!!!!!!! Would a search engine possible make this system usable, yes, would it be better than an AH no way in ****. Also there is to /ta <namehere> function, meaning you can spend 15 min just trying to get the PC you want to buy from to load, wow that sounds fun.

Your fear of RMT is way to much of an overreaction. AH bots were NEVER NEVER NEVER the primary source of RMT gil, did they make some gil, yes. I takes WEEKS make a million gil when you are selling items with a 300-2K mark up on them, even if they sell fast. Your next argument would be "oh but they have lots of these bots so it adds up quick" well no they really don't, there just are not that many items that move fast enough to justify boting them. I am sure you will make the argument that people who undercut are RMT, again they are not, I always undercut. Why you ask, because I value high turnover over getting the absolute max value for each transaction.

Your RMT fears are very much over exaggerated. The lack of an AH making this game unplayable is not an exaggeration.


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