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The real deal. Because I'm tired of "It's still beta"Follow

#1 Sep 06 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have played a great deal of MMOs (from all over the world) on release. Most of the MMOs I have played, I have also played the beta. Because of this, I can assume one thing that is a constant through them all.

They have bugs on release. The have bugs after release. The bugs you do not like in beta coming into release will be in the release version. The Bugs you do not like in beta and on release will be fixed eventually. It will more then likely be a month after release by the time they get to the the bulk of what you did not like about the beta. If you play from day one, you will be dealing with the bugs you do not like from beta.

I wanted to be as clear as possible on this. All games go through this. What happens is it costs a great deal of money to produce a game. With MMOs, a good way to cut the cost is to release once most elements are playable. It basically is a payed beta, and this is what we need to understand. On release, I know I will come to this site and there will be a great many posts complaining about the beta bugs, and a great many posts of people saying its only a day, week, 2 weeks old. I just want you to keep what I said here in mind when you make those posts. This game will eventually be something very desirable. It will not happen right away however.

MMOs are like a fine wine, flavor matures with age.

Thank you for your support.
#2 Sep 06 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rated Up

Very well thought out and I agree completely.

For those of us that loved FFXI, e know SE comes through eventually. I being a dedicated Final Fantasy fan since FF1 (I'm old) will stand by FFXIV.
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#3 Sep 06 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Good
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Great post, I think too many people are stuck on the idea that some issues will destroy the game and I also feel that some are fooling themselves into thinking that everything will be perfect on day one of release.

I appreciate your realistic point of view. Rated up.
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#4 Sep 06 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Default
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#5 Sep 06 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Well said my friend, well said.
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#6 Sep 06 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
Rated down for fishing for ratings (not really, I agree)
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#7 Sep 06 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Good
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Also, it's still beta.
#8 Sep 06 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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+1, finally a well thought response to the numerous complaints about the game.
#9 Sep 06 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Good
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i completely agree. but what does that mean for the huge population of people who preordered it and are expecting a final fantasy story immersion, and ffxiv's reputation afterwards (assuming it isn't received well in the first few months). Most other mmos aren't as popular on release and have time to fix themselves before getting the bulk of players, whereas final fantasys are hugely popular at release and at least from what i've seen, doesn't seem to have something to hook people into waiting around a month. but i've only done 4 or 5 other betas before so i might be wrong about it.
#10 Sep 06 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Rated down for fishing for ratings (not really, I agree)


Hopefully I got the right depth. :P
#11 Sep 06 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Good
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This game will be in beta for the first year or so after release...
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#12 Sep 06 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree completely. I never played a MMO, (and ive played them all) where the open beta didnt basically represent what players would see at launch minus a few bells and whistles. And this is after beta testing almost all of the major mmo's since ultima online.

I want the game to be perfect just like the person next to me. I'm just realistic though. I know release will be basically the same as open beta. I just hope the menu lag isnt as bad. If they get that sorted out ill be a happy camper. But i doubt they will with that either. However i think FFXIV will be one of the best mmo's on the market come 2011.

#13 Sep 06 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Good
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However i think FFXIV will be one of the best mmo's on the market come 2011.


I agree, I think it will take off at ps3 launch. I kinda expect a bunch of people to join now, quit soon for other mmos or cataclys (wow thingy), and then SE to release some expansion or new thing with ps3 launch and everyone to come back :]
#14 Sep 06 2010 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Just to add to the OP, I knew fully well before pre-ordering all of these 'quirks' and problems that even the release WILL have. They are inevitable.

And given SE's nature I also know that there is a certain conformity that I will have to adhere to and again, I'm fine with that, as long as I'm having a good time.

When I'm not having a good time, I'll stop playing. However I'm certainly going to reserve a majority of my judgement until well after release.
#15 Sep 06 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just to add to the OP, I knew fully well before pre-ordering all of these 'quirks' and problems that even the release WILL have. They are inevitable.


As long as we understand what we are getting into, I believe being a part of open is something that has a lot of meaning to a game we may spend years of out life in. Not only can it be fun, but also a badge of honor and a memory to look back on. I remember an online game, forgot which, where a server problem happened and my character which I spent 3 weeks playing, was erased. I could only laugh. I remember when WoW first came online, I got mauled and killed by hundreds of lions because the game kept spawning mobs without limit. Good times were had by all.

I plan to have just as much fun with this game on open, and to also take many pictures of the goofy bugs that this game will produce.
#16 Sep 06 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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Azurymber wrote:
i completely agree. but what does that mean for the huge population of people who preordered it and are expecting a final fantasy story immersion, and ffxiv's reputation afterwards (assuming it isn't received well in the first few months). Most other mmos aren't as popular on release and have time to fix themselves before getting the bulk of players, whereas final fantasys are hugely popular at release and at least from what i've seen, doesn't seem to have something to hook people into waiting around a month. but i've only done 4 or 5 other betas before so i might be wrong about it.


It doesn't mean anything with regards to those that have placed their order and are looking for a story immersion. The story is there, just not complete. It is because of the Final Fantasy brand that this game is getting attention. Even after FFX-2, and even after the box office flop Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, and other flops, the name brand is still viable and marketable.

Final Fantasy does have something to bring to the people and these are some of their selling points that will have people wait:

- Graphics (The graphics alone will make people drool. Those of us that are playing on low settings can attest that even on low settings, the graphics are still very good. This is a major selling point for ANY game.)
- Story (Guarantee that there will be a good story as with any Final Fantasy Game. The same crew from FFXI is working on this project, that means and enriching story, and love-able and memorable characters.)
- Community (Unlike other MMO's, this community is very active, creative, helpful, and mature...majority of the time lol. This is one of the main reasons why FFXI is still to date very strong. It may not usurp WoW, but it's consistent with it's population.)

People will wait. They will come, maybe not in droves but they will. I don't expect, and SE doesn't expect this to overtake any game on the market. They just want it to be successful, like an 8 year old game made for the PS2 ages ago that was conceived during the days of Chrono Cross, FFXI.
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#17 Sep 06 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Good
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Well to be fair, Final Fantasy XI has what 1-2 years in Japan before being brought to NA and then EU. That was a lot of time to fix a lot of the issues, and even during the many years of FFXI they still continue fixing a lot of stuff. The same is going to happen to FFXIV. No MMO to this date has been 100% perfect from the beginning. I thought this was already common knowledge when you play a MMO.
#18 Sep 06 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Excenmille wrote:

Well to be fair, Final Fantasy XI has what 1-2 years in Japan before being brought to NA and then EU. That was a lot of time to fix a lot of the issues, and even during the many years of FFXI they still continue fixing a lot of stuff. The same is going to happen to FFXIV. No MMO to this date has been 100% perfect from the beginning. I thought this was already common knowledge when you play a MMO.


Not for people who haven't played MMO's before. They'll be instantly put off. These people are SE's target "casual gamer" audience.

They might see it on release, think "oh 13 was ok, wonder what it's like playing online", pick it up and find it to be sluggish, unresponsive, etc etc... all the things that have been said. But they won't know about sites like Alla and XIVCore to find things out... they'll just go "meh this is bad" and either stick to 1 player games or pick up the WoW box set for the same price or cheaper...
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#19 Sep 06 2010 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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I completely agree. I also have never played an Open Beta that got most of the bugs out in time for release. It has to have a grace period. For me, I usually use the month paid for and the one month free you usually get for MMO's. If it doesn't look like it's going up in quality, that's when I un-sub myself.

Also, I know people really hate the UI, and I agree for the most part. Even if it was lag free, The amount of menu's for some things is staggering. *Holds back on rant*

But something like that to be changed within a week or two is not going to happen, and I'll place final judgement on that issue when my time limit expires :P I keep thinking back to Age of Conan, There was a quest NPC near the entrance of a dungeon, but actually accepting the quest KILLED your character, and you would have to respawn and make the trek back. I don't even remember when (if) it was fixed since I had out-leveld that zone and hadn't heard anything .lol

Also, people have to think about priorities, SE is very near its launch, and most of its Dev team is probably working out kinks in Net-code and server stability. That and game bugs will happen first, refinement of UI is probably lower on the list. I think people should take that into consideration before actually purchasing.

Well, that's my 2 gil ;) Here's hoping for a worthwhile investment! :D
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#20 Sep 06 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Also, people have to think about priorities, SE is very near its launch, and most of its Dev team is probably working out kinks in Net-code and server stability. That and game bugs will happen first, refinement of UI is probably lower on the list. I think people should take that into consideration before actually purchasing


Good that you said this. I wanted to post something about this but was afraid the main point would get diluted.

The first few weeks, they will be trying to keep the servers working. Even now, I would not doubt that this is their main focus.
#21 Sep 06 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I have played many betas dateing back to UO up to this one,This game buy far has many many flaws that will make it not apeal to many gamers....

1)haveing to use torrents due to lack of S.E client

2)the controlls of the mouse/keyboard

3)haveing to buy gamepad for 1 mmo

4)the price for 1 toon

due to my MMO playing experinces this game will keep FF fan base and yet draw very few new players unless some of these probs are fixed.It may seem small to FF fans but Huge to fans of mmos with so many new amazing titles on this rise to name some Cata,GW2 and many many more that are alot more polished then i beleave S.E is or will be for some time Have fun enjoy the game
#22 Sep 06 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Castrophany wrote:

MMOs are like a fine wine, flavor matures with age.


I agree with everything you said except this part. Many MMO's come to mind that defy this logic. SWG and LOTRO immediately come to mind. I think an argument could be made that WoW falls under that defiance.

Although there are also times when you are correct. AoC and maybe CoH come to mind.
#23 Sep 06 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Rate up

You got it right
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#24 Sep 06 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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vangough wrote:
I have played many betas dateing back to UO up to this one,This game buy far has many many flaws that will make it not apeal to many gamers....

1)haveing to use torrents due to lack of S.E client

2)the controlls of the mouse/keyboard

3)haveing to buy gamepad for 1 mmo

4)the price for 1 toon

due to my MMO playing experinces this game will keep FF fan base and yet draw very few new players unless some of these probs are fixed.It may seem small to FF fans but Huge to fans of mmos with so many new amazing titles on this rise to name some Cata,GW2 and many many more that are alot more polished then i beleave S.E is or will be for some time Have fun enjoy the game


1) If SE fixes this, it won't be a problem. I'm hoping they will.

2) I'm not sure what you mean. I think the controls are fine. UI is a bit laggy, but I'm not having any issue with controls, really.

3) I don't have a gamepad and the game runs fine. Who said you had to buy a gamepad?

4) First, we are not playing carTOON characters, they're just characters. Second, $12.95 is less than the average MMORPG price of $15 (unless you buy in bulk). $12.95/mo is also less than going to the bar and buying 2-4 drinks, less than going out to dinner or going to a club once a month, less than 1-2 games of bowling or billiards, less than 2-3 lunches, and four months of $12.95 a month is approximately $52, less than the cost of a new console game and only slightly higher than the cost of a new PC game. If you have to pay $2 in tolls going to and from work each day, you will spend more than $12.95 in 4 days. If $12.95/mo will break your bank account, perhaps you need to look into what -else- you're spending things on.

Sure, I have a few criticisms about the game, but other than the first one, these are pretty much non-issues.
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#25 Sep 06 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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I understand what the OP is saying, but I can't help but feel that we shouldn't just give SE a free pass because "it's just beta". It's also the beta coming from a company that not only allegedly had this in development for 5 years, but also already has another MMO currently running for the past 8. A lot of the **** the people are complaining about are things which they could have directly taken lessons from their own past mmo. They didn't have to reinvent the wheel, but they decided to try anyway.

A lot of us just expected something a little more from SE, because they have always expected more of themselves. From the days of that Hail Mary game in the 80's, up until maybe around FFX, they raised the bar and everyone looked to them as THE authority on what an RPG should be. Now, they are falling way behind the curve, and I can't help but feel it started to go downhill when certain people at the company left, and took their visions with them. Spirits within and Advent Children could have been successes as well, if they would just sit down with a crayon and a piece of paper like they used to and just dream.

We'll keep buying the stuff because it's Final Fantasy, but what happens when we move on? Why will the next generation buy it? And that's what SE has to remember - the folks who grew up with these jRPGs are aging (/sigh), and SE can't just expect that we will sustain them indefinitely. They need to recapture the magic that we experienced twenty+ years in the making, for the new generations. Because I'll tell you what, while SE is recycling the FF name over and over, other groups are building new names to recycle for the NEXT 20+ years.
#26 Sep 06 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I understand what the OP is saying, but I can't help but feel that we shouldn't just give SE a free pass because "it's just beta". It's also the beta coming from a company that not only allegedly had this in development for 5 years, but also already has another MMO currently running for the past 8. A lot of the sh*t the people are complaining about are things which they could have directly taken lessons from their own past mmo. They didn't have to reinvent the wheel, but they decided to try anyway


I'm not saying that you should give them a free pass. What I am trying to convey is what I said needs to be kept in mind while playing the first month, maybe the first 2 months depending. If you do not like the idea of paying for a beta, then I would highly suggest waiting for the first major patch that addressed the issues you have. All MMOs do this now. It is common practice due to budget concerns. All is not lost though as long as you keep in mind what you are getting into, and keep in mind that eventually, all will be dealt with in its due time. Like I said in a previous post, it really can be fun to partake in the chaos that is release.
#27 Sep 06 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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Castrophany - if it were any other company - I might be inclined to agree with you. But after 8 years of seeing major issues go unaddressed in FFXI.....

Forgive me for being just a little jaded. Just a little :p
#28 Sep 06 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I understand what the OP is saying, but I can't help but feel that we shouldn't just give SE a free pass because "it's just beta". It's also the beta coming from a company that not only allegedly had this in development for 5 years, but also already has another MMO currently running for the past 8. A lot of the sh*t the people are complaining about are things which they could have directly taken lessons from their own past mmo. They didn't have to reinvent the wheel, but they decided to try anyway.

A lot of us just expected something a little more from SE, because they have always expected more of themselves. From the days of that Hail Mary game in the 80's, up until maybe around FFX, they raised the bar and everyone looked to them as THE authority on what an RPG should be. Now, they are falling way behind the curve, and I can't help but feel it started to go downhill when certain people at the company left, and took their visions with them. Spirits within and Advent Children could have been successes as well, if they would just sit down with a crayon and a piece of paper like they used to and just dream.

We'll keep buying the stuff because it's Final Fantasy, but what happens when we move on? Why will the next generation buy it? And that's what SE has to remember - the folks who grew up with these jRPGs are aging (/sigh), and SE can't just expect that we will sustain them indefinitely. They need to recapture the magic that we experienced twenty+ years in the making, for the new generations. Because I'll tell you what, while SE is recycling the FF name over and over, other groups are building new names to recycle for the NEXT 20+ years.


I agree. But what you're talking about is gameplay related and not game breaking bugs. I think a topic about gameplay problems should be created. In many ways SE has moved forwward with this game but in others they moved VERY far behind.

One example is the chat system sux compared to ffxi. Also why can't they do some thing like WoW. Where you can ask any guard in town where something specific is. I hate being lost in the city having to look online or shout to find it.

Again these are gameplay related gripes and not bugs. But the gameplay is VERY important and if people are un happy with simple gameplay elements not being excecuted right people will pass this game over. As someone said before this game sorta of does get a free pass because it's Final Fantasy. IF it were any other name peope wouldn't invest their time and money to wait for it to get better.

MMOs do evolve over time. But the average player doesn't know or care for that. When they drop their hard earned cash on a game with broken gameplay mechanics they WILL complain. Again thats a topic for another thread.

As for bugs the OP is right and they will be addressed and likely bugs will be priority over improving gameplay elements.

I feel they SE doesn't expect much of the PC release I think they're targeting the PS3 market more so and the game will most likely be up to par at that time.
#29 Sep 06 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


4) First, we are not playing carTOON characters, they're just characters. Second, $12.95 is less than the average MMORPG price of $15 (unless you buy in bulk). $12.95/mo is also less than going to the bar and buying 2-4 drinks, less than going out to dinner or going to a club once a month, less than 1-2 games of bowling or billiards, less than 2-3 lunches, and four months of $12.95 a month is approximately $52, less than the cost of a new console game and only slightly higher than the cost of a new PC game. If you have to pay $2 in tolls going to and from work each day, you will spend more than $12.95 in 4 days. If $12.95/mo will break your bank account, perhaps you need to look into what -else- you're spending things on.


Look you and I agree on pretty much everything else you said. But I absolutely abhor this argument. Not only that but you picked an example that doesn't even make any sense. Having to pay a toll to get to and from work each day (why aren't you buying a pass?) is a necessity. Playing a video game is not.

You don't get to tell people what they can and can't spend their money on. You don't know how much they make, their finances, any of their situations at all. You're projecting your own life and personal situation on other people. That is so obviously wrong to me. Not only that but some people budget their money in such a way that it's all accounted for in some way or another. Tacking on more frivolous things generally means getting rid of something else and replacing it(like a netflix account or a membership at a gym or something). Just because you're terrible at money or have so much of it that you don't care, doesn't mean everybody lives their life by the same guidelines.

Essentially what I mean is, when it comes to anonymous people.. maybe you shouldn't try to tell them how to spend their money. I think most people can figure out whether or not they want to spend their own money.


Edited, Sep 6th 2010 3:49pm by runtheplacered
#30 Sep 06 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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4) First, we are not playing carTOON characters, they're just characters.


Just because you don't like the terminology Mik, doesn't make the term "toon" wrong. They're toons. They're animated characters, and no matter how much you wanna argue it, even the most adult animation in the world still a "cartoon".

Unless we want to start calling them adult animated graphic novel characters? :P

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 4:35pm by seneleron
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#31 Sep 06 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
4) First, we are not playing carTOON characters, they're just characters. Second, $12.95 is less than the average MMORPG price of $15 (unless you buy in bulk). $12.95/mo is also less than going to the bar and buying 2-4 drinks, less than going out to dinner or going to a club once a month, less than 1-2 games of bowling or billiards, less than 2-3 lunches, and four months of $12.95 a month is approximately $52, less than the cost of a new console game and only slightly higher than the cost of a new PC game. If you have to pay $2 in tolls going to and from work each day, you will spend more than $12.95 in 4 days. If $12.95/mo will break your bank account, perhaps you need to look into what -else- you're spending things on.


Love this lol. I also always wondered why people make a big deal over paying monthly fees for mmo's. It's seriously just pocket change for unlimited enjoyment. MMO's SAVE me money if anything. It also makes me laugh when people expect the best possible customer service when they pay in pocket change. Like the above poster said....If 12.95/mo will break your bank account, you need to rethink how you are spending your time/money.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 5:30pm by Soezu
#32 Sep 06 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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What i find hilarious is how the game already has a hardware mouse, SE just isnt turning the switch on to activate it.

If you want a hardware mouse here is the link, it works like a dream!!!

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/13698/ffxiv-mouse-lag-fix/

But yeah after 5 years with FFXI i dont see any of the major issues getting fixed in a timely manner. SE are too stubborn to admit anything is wrong.
#33 Sep 06 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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seneleron wrote:
Quote:
4) First, we are not playing carTOON characters, they're just characters.


Just because you don't like the terminology Mik, doesn't make the term "toon" wrong. They're toons. They're animated characters, and no matter how much you wanna argue it, even the most adult animation in the world still a "cartoon".


Besides, if we really want to be picky about terminology, I believe the proper word is "avatar". :P
#34 Sep 06 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Soezu wrote:
Love this lol. I also always wondered why people make a big deal over paying monthly fees for mmo's. It's seriously just pocket change for unlimited enjoyment. MMO's SAVE me money if anything. It also makes me laugh when people expect the best possible customer service when they pay in pocket change. Like the above poster said....If 12.95/mo will break your bank account, you need to rethink how you are spending your time/money.



That is such an incredibly ignorant statement. Who says they don't want to pay because it'll break their bank account? Do you seriously spend all of your money until you have 0 dollars left? If not then you realize that at some point you need to draw a line on your expenses.

Do me a favor and don't tell others how to spend their money anymore, please.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 5:54pm by runtheplacered
#35 Sep 06 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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WoW only had one major bug on release - took like 2 min to loot something, and it was fixed in the first week. Don't tell me "It's Beta". These things are fixable if they recognize the problems and push the release back a few.

Problem is, these days no one (including Blizzard) cares about the game, just making money, so the try to push it out as fast as possible, not realize that they loose most of their players right off the back when the game is nearly unplayable.

Thats what killed Warhammer Online, among dozens of other good games.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 6:10pm by Raptorian
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#36 Sep 06 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Be it a game launch or expansion, I'm frankly appalled people tolerate the release of incomplete content. Refinements and bug fixes are one thing, but then there's stuff like WotG...
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#37 Sep 06 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I see a lot of weird rating in this thread. Please remember that the rating system is only for abusive posts, not posts you may disagree with. A difference of opinion is the reason forums work. Please don't punish people for having one.

Edit: I went in and fixed what I could.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 7:33pm by Castrophany
#38 Sep 06 2010 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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The real deal:

People are not complaining about lag or bugs as - for lack of a better term - game breakers. They are complaining about fundamental design choices which don't really seem to make sense and hinder game play enjoyment.
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#39 Sep 06 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The real deal:

People are not complaining about lag or bugs as - for lack of a better term - game breakers. They are complaining about fundamental design choices which don't really seem to make sense and hinder game play enjoym


This might be the case, but not what this thread is about. This thread is directed to those who are concerned with the bugs that are still prevalent.
#40 Sep 06 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
This might be the case, but not what this thread is about. This thread is directed to those who are concerned with the bugs that are still prevalent.


Do you believe that MMOs with fundamental design flaws mature with age like a fine wine?
#41 Sep 06 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Do you believe that MMOs with fundamental design flaws mature with age like a fine wine?


Please explain the bugs that are fundamental design flaws that SE cannot fix.
#42 Sep 06 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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94 posts
I swear people are seriously offended by this game like it stole from them. My god. Someone shows an ounce of enthusiasm and its shot down like a rabid dog. Its hard for me to believe that those who despise this game so badly continue to play and buzz kill any semi positive thread. Seriously, why even bother?

I agree OP. Its easy to get caught up in the menusha on these boards but when Im logged in and actually playing, im having a good time. Certainly ready for the release
#43 Sep 06 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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63 posts
Quote:
Please explain the bugs that are fundamental design flaws that SE cannot fix.


Now you're adding the caveat of fundamental design flaws "that SE cannot fix," which is just pushing the goalpost in another direction. In theory, they can fix every problem out there. I agree with you in that. Every complaint brought up on these forums can be fixed eventually. The question is "Can they fix these design flaws in the next couple of weeks before launch?" The secondary question is "Do I want to pay for an incomplete game as they fix (or don't fix, as I played FFXI) these problems?"

Will a functioning economic framework be ready for launch (either an AH or the functional equivalent of searching retainers)? Will nested menus and superfluous selection steps be streamlined for launch? Will the Surplus/Fatigue system be tweaked before launch? Will the punishing and restrictive Guildleve system in place now be overhauled for release? Will there be a tradeskill system at launch that displays what recipes you have already learned? Will the extreme difference between the /con rating of world mobs ever be reconciled with the /con rating of leve mobs?

Granted, they can fix all these things eventually. But this is a launch product that will determine the future success of the product. This isn't the Wild West of MMO design like in the olden days. With the amount of polished games out there, you cannot release an unfinished product and say "Trust me, it'll be better later." For complexity, you can always go back to EVE. For playability, you can always go back to WoW. ****, at this point FFXIV isn't any better than FFXI, which is a major problem for a spiritual sequel.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 9:13pm by Refresherize
#44 Sep 06 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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183 posts
Quote:
Now you're adding the caveat of fundamental design flaws "that SE cannot fix," which is just pushing the goalpost in another direction. In theory, they can fix every problem out there. I agree with you in that. Every complaint brought up on these forums can be fixed eventually. The question is "Can they fix these design flaws in the next couple of weeks before launch?" The secondary question is "Do I want to pay for an incomplete game as they fix (or don't fix, as I played FFXI) these problems?"

Will a functioning economic framework be ready for launch (either an AH or the functional equivalent of searching retainers)? Will nested menus and superfluous selection steps be streamlined for launch? Will the Surplus/Fatigue system be tweaked before launch? Will the punishing and restrictive Guildleve system in place now be overhauled for release? Will there be a tradeskill system at launch that displays what recipes you have already learned? Will the extreme difference between the /con rating of world mobs ever be reconciled with the /con rating of leve mobs?

Granted, they can fix all these things eventually. But this is a launch product that will determine the future success of the product. This isn't the Wild West of MMO design like in the olden days. With the amount of polished games out there, you cannot release an unfinished product and say "Trust me, it'll be better lately." For complexity, you can always go back to EVE. For playability, you can always go back to WoW. ****, at this point FFXIV isn't any better than FFXI, which is a major problem for a spiritual sequel.


My point was that I have already covered this within the bounds of this threads design. No, the bugs will not be fixed on release. One could either wait until they read via patch notes that the bugs they wished to be addressed have been, or play if they are content with the game. I cannot, (and no one else here can either), predict if the gameplay mechanics you do not like will be addressed in the same manner. It would worthless for anyone to give answers one way or the other since we do not have access to that information.
#45 Sep 06 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Castrophany wrote:
Quote:
Do you believe that MMOs with fundamental design flaws mature with age like a fine wine?


Please explain the bugs that are fundamental design flaws that SE cannot fix.
Everything could be fixed, it's the fact that they still aren't doing it anyway that is really annoying.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#46 Sep 06 2010 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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2,535 posts
Castrophany wrote:
I see a lot of weird rating in this thread. Please remember that the rating system is only for abusive posts, not posts you may disagree with. A difference of opinion is the reason forums work. Please don't punish people for having one.


This is a common misperception in this forum, but it is not true.

The rating system is not to be used for camping (either up or down) threads or posters - that is the only unacceptable use of rating. Beyond that, posters are allowed to rate posts however they see fit, for any reason they care to.
#47 Sep 06 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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183 posts
Quote:
Everything could be fixed, it's the fact that they still aren't doing it anyway that is really annoying.


I think by the time I am finished with this thread, my name will be grey. Eh, whatever.

The bugs will be fixed. Gameplay mechanics are not something I was trying to predict in this thread. this thread is about that fact that the bugs will be fixed. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Bugs are unintentional, gameplay mechanics are not. Bugs will be address because they are unintentional, gameplay mechanics will be address depending on worldwide community feedback. Saying "it is still beta" does not mean anything due the reasons I have given here and above. If one were to read this thread in its entirety, this would be a pretty obvious that the area of discussion revolves around what they will do about the bugs on a long enough time scale.

Quote:
Quote:
Please remember that the rating system is only for abusive posts, not posts you may disagree with. A difference of opinion is the reason forums work. Please don't punish people for having one.
This is a common misperception in this forum, but it is not true.

The rating system is not to be used for camping (either up or down) threads or posters - that is the only unacceptable use of rating. Beyond that, posters are allowed to rate posts however they see fit, for any reason they care to.


Edit: The rating system only has meaning if it is used in this manner. Otherwise, it is completely useless as all it does is promote conformity to widely accepted ideas. If this website supports it as this function, I will have to move on from this site. I know, no one will feel my loss. Yes, you can have my stuff.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 9:17pm by Castrophany

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 9:18pm by Castrophany
#48 Sep 06 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Castrophany wrote:
I think by the time I am finished with this thread, my name will be grey.
Rule 1 of Karma Club...
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#49 Sep 06 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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183 posts
Quote:
Rule 1 of Karma Club..


Truthfully, I liked being blue.
#50 Sep 06 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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63 posts
Quote:
The bugs will be fixed. Gameplay mechanics are not something I was trying to predict in this thread. this thread is about that fact that the bugs will be fixed. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Bugs are unintentional, gameplay mechanics are not. Bugs will be address because they are unintentional, gameplay mechanics will be address depending on worldwide community feedback. Saying "it is still beta" does not mean anything due the reasons I have given here and above. If one were to read this thread in its entirety, this would be a pretty obvious that the area of discussion revolves around what they will do about the bugs on a long enough time scale.


In that case your original post is completely meaningless. You want paying customers to give SE a pass on the first one or two months of bugs, because games cost a lot of money to produce and we should just realize that we're playing a "payed [sic] beta." Are bugs even the largest problem with the game at this point? I've done what you have, and ignored for the most part things that I assume are bugs. I assume maneuvering around the interface will become faster. I assume lag will be sorted out. These sorts of functional UI and connection issues will be hammered out eventually.

When you ignore gameplay decisions on the part of the developers, you're purposefully ignoring a large portion of the criticism that this game has. When you blithely suggest that MMOs age like fine wine as their bugs are fixed, you ignore the fact that gameplay mechanics (which, semantically, are not bugs) play into this equation. This game has both serious bugs and serious gameplay errors. Were all the unintentional bugs fixed tomorrow, would this game still be worth playing?

That is what people are wondering.

To pretend that bugs are some ethereal extension of the game, and not part of the whole itself, is dishonest and deceptive. I can't remember the last time I talked with someone about playing a new game and their response was "There are some absolutely inane design decisions here, but I'm going to keep playing because the bugs were absolutely quashed upon release."
#51 Sep 06 2010 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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183 posts
Quote:
In that case your original post is completely meaningless. You want paying customers to give SE a pass on the first one or two months of bugs, because games cost a lot of money to produce and we should just realize that we're playing a "payed [sic] beta." Are bugs even the largest problem with the game at this point? I've done what you have, and ignored for the most part things that I assume are bugs. I assume maneuvering around the interface will become faster. I assume lag will be sorted out. These sorts of functional UI and connection issues will be hammered out eventually.

When you ignore gameplay decisions on the part of the developers, you're purposefully ignoring a large portion of the criticism that this game has. When you blithely suggest that MMOs age like fine wine as their bugs are fixed, you ignore the fact that gameplay mechanics (which, semantically, are not bugs) play into this equation. This game has both serious bugs and serious gameplay errors. Were all the unintentional bugs fixed tomorrow, would this game still be worth playing?

That is what people are wondering.

To pretend that bugs are some ethereal extension of the game, and not part of the whole itself, is dishonest and deceptive. I can't remember the last time I talked with someone about playing a new game and their response was "There are some absolutely inane design decisions here, but I'm going to keep playing because the bugs were absolutely quashed upon rele


If enough people believe that the gameplay mechanics you do not like are not worth playing the game, then changes will have to be done. It is the only logical conclusion. Are you afraid that not enough people believe as you do worldwide to be safe in the knowledge that things will be done to rectify your concerns? If that is the case, you have the choice of not playing. This also means that the majority of people are ok with what you have issues with, so therefor it is far from gamebreaking. My argument stands. I will not however listen to those who claim that they know the route the game will take when it comes to said mechanics. We do not possess the knowledge to predict worldwide trends.

Again, you either accept what is given at release, or wait to see what happens with oncoming patches. The bugs however, will be fixed eventually and that is all I really care about. I will be in-game having fun, but if I stop having fun, I will speak with my wallet. I suggest you do the same.

This thread has gone off topic. The derailment into speculation over gameplay mechanics is not something I will waste my time with anymore. Plus the banners on this website are killing my browser. Good day.
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