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Allakhazam unite! Retainer system must go!Follow

#1 Sep 06 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm all about giving this game's designs and concepts the benefit of the doubt. But this retainer bazaar system is beyond useless.

For example, I helped an LS mate find a shield in the wards, but they still couldn't buy it because the retainer in question wouldn't load on their screen. Obviously in this situation I could have bought it for them, but if searching solo it's aggravating to think I may be missing my desired item because the retainer that may be selling it just won't load.

I've been searching for Lightning Shards for days now so that I can level Weaving. But all I come across are folks seeking for them. It doesn't make sense that I have to spend days scouring about 20 some ward zones to try and find something as simple as Shards.

Granted, it's possible that through speaking with people, I can find someone who can make the item for which I am looking, thus creating a "supply and demand" situation where this friend of a friend of a friend who might just happen to have the materials from five different DoH classes that are required for a Rank 7 item will now charge me an exorbitant price because they know this pretty much is the only place I can get it.

So here is a step by step list of instructions on how to fix this:

1. Create a search function. Allow us to type in what item we are looking for and bring up a list of retainers selling/seeking said item. Or just allow us to browse by category.

2. Make it so we can purchase/sell the item through this search, or make /ta "Name" a function. Still, conducting business through this search function would be ideal.

3. Now that there is a search function and we can buy/sell through it, delete the Market Ward zones.

4. Call this new interface an Auction House.

It's been proven that, despite SEs lack of outward communication, we have the power to get our message through to them. This needs to be as big of an issue as surplus was.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 6:12pm by Sephrick
#2 Sep 06 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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At first I liked the market wards and retainer bazaar system. Then as Besaid grew, it has become more and more overwhelming to the point that it takes 40 minutes to go through 1 market room, usually to sift through junk I don't need, repeats, etc.

I like the idea of a retainer market, but the system definitely has flaws :(
#3 Sep 06 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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retainers are neat, but they're a replacement for moogles/mog houses, and not a replacement for an AH
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#4 Sep 06 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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There has been talk of an AH system being in the works (similar to FFXI's) but it will not make launch.
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#5 Sep 06 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
It's not the retainer system that's broken. It's the bazaar farms. Let's be clear about that. Unless SE does something to centralize them, the current setup is going to draw much criticism. Actually having an NPC you can summon in towns to transfer excess bits to for storage is a massive step up from the logging back and forth to mules shenanigans in XI.
#6 Sep 06 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Agree 100%
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#7 Sep 06 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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SE will -have- to make a search or AH function soon or the economy wont work. No one will take crafting past 15 or 20 because it will take hours to sift through bazaars for the items they need.

coincidently 2 or 3 days ago when i made a thread about the economy failing a bunch of people were saying how great the retainer system is... So it probably won't seem like a serious problem at launch, at least in SE's eyes.
#8 Sep 06 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Azurymber wrote:
SE will -have- to make a search


They already confirmed a search function will be added for retainers on retail.
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#9 Sep 06 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Don't worry, when the game is released there will be 10 times as many retainers not loading in the area.
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#10 Sep 06 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
SE will -have- to make a search


They already confirmed a search function will be added for retainers on retail.




I must have missed when they said that. It'd be super sweet if they'd add it during beta, but as long as it's there in retail along with some way to target/locate the desired retainer, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.
#11 Sep 06 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I an't even figure out how to use mine :P I got the guy and know need to be around a 'bell' to call him... but can't find anything in Ul'Dah? What am i missing?

(love the idea for storage, not for bazaaring ><)
#12 Sep 06 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Default
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I don't understand why people insist on buying shards. They seem to rain from mobs. I'm currently leveling Goldsmithing, Alchemy, Fishing, Cooking, and Carpentry. My other jobs are Conjurer and Thaum. Taking a quick look at my current crystal inventory...

898 Earth Shards
949 Fire Shards
250 Water Shards
234 Wind Shards
456 Lightning Shards
341 Ice shards
18 Fire Crystal
16 Earth Crystal
08 Wind Crystal
02 Water Crystal
04 Ice Crystal

This morning I only had 82 Wind Shards. I farmed up the right mobs and after an hour I had 234 shards. I know the retainer system is a royal pain in the ****, but thre are quicker and cheaper ways to get shards.

If you're on Wutai Sephrick, I'll gladly donate some to you.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:02pm by rubina
#13 Sep 06 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seconding this. AH, retainer, whatever.

There needs to be some sort of interface that allows players to browse what goods are for sale, how many are for sale, and how much they cost, and allows you to buy and sell those goods through this interface.

Call it Qrrbrbirlbel for all I care. Just add it. Preferably before retail, but at retail would be fine too. Definitely -not- "Some time after retail when we get around to it".
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#14 Sep 06 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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rubina wrote:

I don't understand why people insist on buying shards. They seem to rain from mobs. I'm currently leveling Goldsmithing, Alchemy, Fishing, Cooking, and Carpentry. My other jobs are Conjurer and Thaum. Taking a quick look at my current crystal inventory...

898 Earth Shards
949 Fire Shards
250 Water Shards
234 Wind Shards
456 Lightning Shards
341 Ice shards
18 Fire Crystal
16 Earth Crystal
08 Wind Crystal
02 Water Crystal
04 Ice Crystal

This morning I only had 82 Wind Shards. I farmed up the right mobs and after an hour I had 234 shards. I know the retainer system is a royal pain in the ****, but thre are quicker and cheaper ways to get shards.


Ok, but what does this have to do with the system sucking an egg? Please stay on topic. It doesn't matter if it's shards, crystals, or a pair of shoes I just simply MUST have - the system is terribly flawed and needs to go.
#15 Sep 06 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Please stay on topic.


Quote:
I've been searching for Lightning Shards for days now so that I can level Weaving. But all I come across are folks seeking for them. It doesn't make sense that I have to spend days scouring about 20 some ward zones to try and find something as simple as Shards.


Did you even read every point the author made? The point that I was making was instead of struggling with the lame retainer system, he could have quickly farmed up the materials.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:13pm by rubina
#16 Sep 06 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's fair to say that it's hard to play an MMORPG without buying and selling things, yes? I mean, even beyond "farming" and "grinding" and "talking with other players", I'd say that "buying and selling stuff" if pretty high up there. There are two main things that every player needs to do:

1) Make money.
2) Get new items.

So why should doing this take half an hour or more to find and procure a single item?
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#17 Sep 06 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry double post.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:15pm by rubina
#18 Sep 06 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
So why should doing this take half an hour or more to find and procure a single item?


Heh ... a LOT more. Retainer system for the overwhelming massive loss.
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#19 Sep 06 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolrockboy wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
So why should doing this take half an hour or more to find and procure a single item?


Heh ... a LOT more. Retainer system for the overwhelming massive loss.


It was a generous underestimate.
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#20 Sep 06 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Did you even read every point the author made? The point that I was making was instead of struggling with the lame retainer system, he could have quickly farmed up the materials.


Why not farm up a haubergeon? Why not farm up a scorpion harness? How about a marmot pelt +3? Not everything that will be available through the retainers will be readily available to just 'farm up'.

Still, I do like the retainer system, just needs a search.
#21 Sep 06 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Still, I do like the retainer system, just needs a search.


Agreed. If they add a search system to it I'm good.
#22 Sep 06 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Did you even read every point the author made? The point that I was making was instead of struggling with the lame retainer system, he could have quickly farmed up the materials.


Interesting. If you could "simply" farm them up. What point would there be in the market or retainer system?
Players wouldn't need to purchase materials from other players.


#23 Sep 06 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I must have missed when they said that. It'd be super sweet if they'd add it during beta, but as long as it's there in retail along with some way to target/locate the desired retainer, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt..

you missed it, because they didn't say it. the last interview about search said something to the effect of "we will look at player feedback and see what kind of changes need to be made or implemented" that does not mean. 'they said will be implemented at launch

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#24 Sep 06 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
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well more precise is they said they are looking into making a search function for the retainer system. when is another question

however they have stated they are trying to NOT make an AH. so probably they will do everything they can to create a better working retainer system. **** if they just add in a search function, one for each room...life would be better.

course we still dont know about this "company" thing they have been talking about...maybe they will make a way people can join in, make requests for items, pool in crap to allow others to make it for them, etc. etc. etc. but...god only knows haha

i think either come release we will be like "oh thank god" or "uh..no". beta test is mostly a stress test...
i dont know if the search function will need much stress testing (it might. i am no programmer). as such. they might not release it because they dont think we will have time to make a stable economy.

all we can say is. the system now is a pain in the booty. it "works" in the way i can buy crap (i got a nice dagger yesterday). its just not..."pretty"

lets just hope in the next few MONTHS something changes about it ;)
#25 Sep 06 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah as some said, it was cool at first. It got old quickly though. I'm for an auction house. It always works. WoW's was my favorite.
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#26 Sep 06 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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one for each room...life would be better.


If they add a search function it should search all the rooms at once, and either let you buy it through the search function or tell you the retainers name and the room it's in, and ideally it should slap a red dot on the minimap at it's exact location in that room.
#27 Sep 06 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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If they keep the retainer system I think that it would be helpful if each market ward were used specifically for a certain category/guild of items. For example, if they made the Black Oak ward specifically for Archer, the Willow Ward for Weaving, etc... At least everyone would know which ward to head to when looking for an item.
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#28 Sep 06 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If they keep the retainer system I think that it would be helpful if each market ward were used specifically for a certain category/guild of items. For example, if they made the Black Oak ward specifically for Archer, the Willow Ward for Weaving, etc... At least everyone would know which ward to head to when looking for an item.


I don't think it should be that specific because then you would run into issues like items that are used by two classes, or equipment that can be equipped by two classes. It should be seperated into wards for equipment and crafting, though. That would be nice.
#29 Sep 06 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't think it should be that specific because then you would run into issues like items that are used by two classes, or equipment that can be equipped by two classes. It should be seperated into wards for equipment and crafting, though. That would be nice.


Yes, anything with a little more organization would be nice! :)
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#30 Sep 06 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
SE will -have- to make a search


They already confirmed a search function will be added for retainers on retail.


Don't supposed you have a link about this? I'd be interested to read it.
#31 Sep 06 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hesper wrote:
If they keep the retainer system I think that it would be helpful if each market ward were used specifically for a certain category/guild of items. For example, if they made the Black Oak ward specifically for Archer, the Willow Ward for Weaving, etc... At least everyone would know which ward to head to when looking for an item.


THIS

Just relabeling the rooms "weapons" "Armor" "Alchemy" "botanist" ect, would do half the work and take them 10 minutes to do. Sure there are lots of items useful to both (so people will just pick 1) AND players will sometimes put their crap in the wrong hall, but just that tiny, little step is about 40% on the way to completion. Still be a pain to find specfici weapons/gear or rare mats though...
#32 Sep 06 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Good
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I use to take a class in college called Human-computer interaction, it was about UI's and the necessity to give your user what they need when they need it, I can see that most of use agree that the retainer system is totally lacking of these concepts.

As good as any other... let me suggest "Adventurer Item Guide" (or any other name you see fit)

How does it work?

- An additional option in the main menu that connects you to an interface similar to the AH.
- First of all multiple filter options: by job, by level, by-craft; the idea is to change the initial lay-out, for example filtering by job will show the class names and after you select any of them an additional step(s) with the appropriate sub-filter (i.e. weapons and armors) and finally a list of items/equipment (as the old AH sort-able by level, name, stats, etc)
- A SEARCH BOX at any moment I should be able to click in a text box, write the first characters of the item name I'm searching for and have the game find it for me, this is perhaps the most important and needed feature.
- Whenever I'm looking for an item I want the recipe/repair list displayed on it and the ability to jump automatically to search/purchase any of those items, it should also work the other way around, so if I'm looking for the material I want to see all the items can that be build/repaired with it and of course be able to jump to them as well.
- And finally, as we are actually browsing through the available items on retailers, the proper navigation buttons/options are required too: back, forward, upper level and refresh; at the very least.

Well it took me 5 minutes to think about this system, I bet SE have had a lot of time and people far more professional working on this, so don't let us down guys!

Ken

Edit: typos

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 9:11am by kenage
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#33 Sep 06 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not to **** in anyone's cheerios, because I think these are great ideas, but the problem is that you can list any combination of items on your retainer. So if a retainer is selling ore, logs, swords, shields, robes, and crystals... where the **** does he/she go?

Sorting retainers by inventory would be a nice idea but the ability to search all retainers at once and list all retainers selling a given item and their prices and locations is mandatory. The ability to buy -and- sell directly from this UI would be ideal, since part of selling any item is knowing how many are for sale and what they're selling for so that you can price your wares competitively on your retainer.
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#34 Sep 06 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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What if the retainers were the search engine? Like you ask the retainer to search for a certain item, she/he checks all the wards in the city, and comes back with a list of items from all the other retainers listed in price from lowest to highest so you could scope out great deals too.

You could also probably make some sort of bartering system for retainers as well, like you put the super armor +1 in the retainer's inventory and set the item you want to receive in trade. Another player in a different ward sets his super weapon +2 into trade mode, and coincidentally he wants super armor +1. So then the retainers automatically set up an item exchange and both players get a confirmation notice on whether to trade or not.

I'm tired so my trade system might be a bit rough around the edges, but it's better than sitting in Jeuno equivalent all day shouting that you want to trade this for that
#35 Sep 06 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Not to **** in anyone's cheerios, because I think these are great ideas, but the problem is that you can list any combination of items on your retainer. So if a retainer is selling ore, logs, swords, shields, robes, and crystals... where the **** does he/she go?

Sorting retainers by inventory would be a nice idea but the ability to search all retainers at once and list all retainers selling a given item and their prices and locations is mandatory. [The ability to buy -and- sell directly from this UI would be ideal, since part of selling any item is knowing how many are for sale and what they're selling for so that you can price your wares competitively on your retainer.


Added some emphasis.
#36 Sep 07 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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mogwaimon wrote:
What if the retainers were the search engine? Like you ask the retainer to search for a certain item, she/he checks all the wards in the city, and comes back with a list of items from all the other retainers listed in price from lowest to highest so you could scope out great deals too.

You could also probably make some sort of bartering system for retainers as well, like you put the super armor +1 in the retainer's inventory and set the item you want to receive in trade. Another player in a different ward sets his super weapon +2 into trade mode, and coincidentally he wants super armor +1. So then the retainers automatically set up an item exchange and both players get a confirmation notice on whether to trade or not.

I'm tired so my trade system might be a bit rough around the edges, but it's better than sitting in Jeuno equivalent all day shouting that you want to trade this for that


Actually i think this sounds like an interesting system. We already know that SE is trying not to implement an AH, so this might be a likely compromise. While the effect is still more or less that of an AH, but fits better into the lore of the game and the style they are going for.
#37 Sep 07 2010 at 3:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not even gonna take a position whether the retainer system should change or not because

1- I haven't used it so no idea about it.
2- Things will probably change at release

My point to this post is that even though (almost) everyone knows that SE wants to keep the AH out and just use the retainer system, most of the ideas I see it only make the retainer system act like an AH. If you just want an AH then just say so, don't try to change the retainers into AH and still call them Retainers.
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#38 Sep 07 2010 at 3:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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I want an auction house period or whatever you want to call it I don't care. The current system is complete and utter bullocks.
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#39 Sep 07 2010 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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#40 Sep 07 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
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Simplest answer is usually the correct one, so they'll probably implement an AH in the first few weeks of launch. Done.

RMT are here already, the scumf*&ks. Bearded Rock on Rabanastre was poisoned by some **** selling Gil and powerlevelling last night. If you see them, blacklist them straight away and it won't appear in your chatlog.

In Beta!! can you believe it??
#41 Sep 07 2010 at 5:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Petition signed.
The Retainer Zombie Dungeon is probably the most dreadful and unpleasant place to be atm.
#42 Sep 07 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
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1) Considering the amount of bazaars, having to double click up top and to the right just to open them is driving me nuts.

2) I want filter options to let me search for weapons,armor,food,etc. I don't want to open 10 bazaars with junk in between every almost decent bazaar.
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#43 Sep 07 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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If they want to cater to the casual gamer, they will add a search function for retainers or an AH.
#44 Sep 07 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think they should keep the retainer (Not having to have the game on while running a bazaar is kind of nice) but also ADD AH on top of it. A search function will definitely help. Oooh...and don't slap all the retainer in one place. They should let you set up your retainer bazaar anywhere in the city.
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#45 Sep 07 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I really don't know why they are doing this. TONNES of people had bazaars in FFXI and it worked for people wanting to shop around and sell more things than you could on the AH(and without them taking some of your money). It was bad that you needed to stay logged-in the whole time though. The retainer system is nice in that aspect. But there's no way it's a replacement for the AH and SE will understand that when release comes. Nothing we can do until then.

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 9:12am by RayneZ
#46 Sep 07 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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The retainer system, as designed, is pretty horrid.

It needs a search feature at the very least to make it useful. Even then, you run into problems of retainers not loading.

More likely, the system needs a search, buy, sell feature - at which point it's an improvement over an auction house (because of the sell feature).

Once the search/buy/sell feature is built, we don't need market wards (as stated by original poster). We can then get housing using that instance feature. You can still work with the existing concept of the retainer system - you just handle business meetings (i.e. retainer sessions) out of your home.

The skeleton of a good system is here, it's just lacking all of the important features.
#47 Sep 07 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Default
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NO THANKS!

AH just creates problems.

1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the **** out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is *******
10. Start at 1. with a different item.

Make Retainers searchable ~ yes, i am all for it.
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#48 Sep 07 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different item.


1-Don't see a problem on this
2- as above
3- There should be better/more effective ways to deal with RMT
4-Don't see a problem, this is how economy works
6-Nothing wrong with the game here, hust the plyers
7-As above although the game should be able to prevent or identify Bots so bans all around
8- Once again supply and demand, how economy wirks
9- as above
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#49 Sep 07 2010 at 8:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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So what's the big difference between

Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.


and

Quote:
Make Retainers searchable ~ yes, i am all for it.
?


Edited, Sep 7th 2010 10:47am by Rinsui
#50 Sep 07 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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rubina wrote:
I don't understand why people insist on buying shards. They seem to rain from mobs. I'm currently leveling Goldsmithing, Alchemy, Fishing, Cooking, and Carpentry. My other jobs are Conjurer and Thaum. Taking a quick look at my current crystal inventory...

898 Earth Shards
949 Fire Shards
250 Water Shards
234 Wind Shards
456 Lightning Shards
341 Ice shards
18 Fire Crystal
16 Earth Crystal
08 Wind Crystal
02 Water Crystal
04 Ice Crystal

This morning I only had 82 Wind Shards. I farmed up the right mobs and after an hour I had 234 shards. I know the retainer system is a royal pain in the ****, but thre are quicker and cheaper ways to get shards.

If you're on Wutai Sephrick, I'll gladly donate some to you.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:02pm by rubina


Awesome. I'm looking for wind shards. I hear that they drop from Sheep outside Limsa. Can you confirn this or tell me another mob to target? I'm not quite strong enough to take on the Aldgoat Nannies yet.
#51 Sep 07 2010 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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Remember, searching retainers won't necessarily allow you to see how fast an item sells or anything like that. Also you'd be viewing the actual price based on what the retainer's master set rather than viewing the last ten sales and making a bid based on that. So instead of having people listing their items at 3,999 or lower just to sell their items first, you'll have a system where people just list the items for what they want for said item and then it is bought. So searching retainers would be slightly different than our old FFXI AH in that case.

Also, I'm fairly certain we're getting personal housing; this may be guesswork but I know in Gridania if you speak to an NPC outside the gates to Lotus Gardens/Merchant Ward she mentions there being a Peasant Ward where people live, however this area doesn't seem to be accessible in beta, nor does the rich people area in the northern part of Gridania. I'm guessing that's where our moghouse equivalents shall be.
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