Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

Allakhazam unite! Retainer system must go!Follow

#52 Sep 07 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
440 posts
mogwaimon wrote:
So instead of having people listing their items at 3,999 or lower just to sell their items first, you'll have a system where people just list the items for what they want for said item and then it is bought. So searching retainers would be slightly different than our old FFXI AH in that case.


What I'd do is do a search of all the items I want to sell and make note of the prices. If I want to sell the items fast, I will set the price lower to sell mine faster. The only difference is that you can't see the prices of past items, so if there is no one selling the item you want to sell (or offering to buy), you have no idea what to set the price at. It's more inconvenient in this sense.

The thing I would like about this is that you can set an item for your retainer to purchase (hopefully you can also set a max number of items so you don't end up with 10,000 fire crystals and lose a bunch of money). What's bad about that is that, at this point, you can't purchase items you don't already have in your inventory. So if you want a new Gladiator weapon or something and no one is selling, you can't ask for it in your retainer and maybe have someone who is browsing make you one on the spot. Though you couldn't do that in FFXI either, it would be nice if they could add something like that at some point.

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 10:16am by RayneZ
#53 Sep 07 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,061 posts
Well, if no one else is selling the item and it's a particularly rare item or new item, i.e. right after an expansion comes out....that's your chance to sell high high high!

All joking aside, if no one else is selling, you could realistically set your own price based on how useful you think the item is and how much effort it took to get it. Obviously this could be variable....and of course if you got some obvious junk like those malfrost rings or whatever from the bogy NMs in Gusgen from XI, you know to sell lower. It's not particularly difficult to set prices, you just gotta use a little logic. It's inconvenient, yes, but someone has to set those prices.

I like your second paragraph, though. There's so much one could do with a retainer (You know, other than bring it back to your house and make out with it) and SE seems to be letting that potential go to waste. Of course, yes, 'this is only beta' and I'm sure the retainer system will improve over time, but with our current feature set....
#54 Sep 07 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
811 posts
I tried walking around the retainer ward for the first time today, what a terrible experience.
I'd like to know who at SE thought this would even remotely be a good idea?

I pay pretty close attention to what I'm doing ingame and I do a lot of research on FFXIV outside the game... and I couldn't for the life of me tell you what any of the equippable items are for my class.
I can't compare different pieces of equipment unless I see something that is equippable, write all the stats down on a piece of paper, then try to find another similar piece to compare it to.
I have absolutely no idea how to research what I need for my class. I have a starter two-handed staff for my conjurer. Is there a level 4 staff? A level 7 staff? A level 10 staff? Am I searching for something that may not even exist?

There's a reason why people stand around AH's in MMO's... it's the best way to research what you need for your class and to research how much it will likely cost.

Do we really need to go into market wards and spend 99% of our time looking at stuff hoping we find what we need, and when we do find it, it's not at some outrageous price (not that we'd have anything to compare that price to, to know that it's bad or not).

What's the bonus to this system? It's not immersive. Is it to kill RMT? To be honest I'd rather deal with RMT than deal with this retainer system. It's brutal and the most rediculous thing I've seen in an MMO. I know we haven't seen the whole system but this is the biggest flaw with this game right now. If it isn't fixed, it will destroy the game.
#55 Sep 07 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
It's spelled Allakhazam.
#56 Sep 07 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,061 posts
Quote:
It's spelled Allakhazam.


....Is...is this really necessary...?
#57 Sep 07 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
38 posts
While I agree the retainer system needs work I think people are blowing this a bit out of proportion. Maybe its just me but I am glad that S.E. didn't put all there cards out on the table in the beta. It actualy gives us something to look forward to in 14ish days. This system has tons of possibilites. All they need to do is write a few interfaces to make it a bit more user friendly. I am glad they didn't put a system like ffxi in place that limits the amount of items you actualy have for sale. For those of use who make a past time out of gathering this really is a win. No more clogged storage and wasted time bazzaring.
____________________________
FFXI: Alynis / Asura WHM 95/BLM 47 Clothcraft 98 Fishing 100
WoW: Echo Isles (Retired) Nylia 90 Druid, 88 Paladin, 87 Warlock, 85 Priest, 85 Shaman, 85 Mage, 85 Hunter.
Aion (Retired)


#58 Sep 08 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Default
*
249 posts
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different item.


1-Don't see a problem on this
2- as above
3- There should be better/more effective ways to deal with RMT
4-Don't see a problem, this is how economy works
6-Nothing wrong with the game here, hust the plyers
7-As above although the game should be able to prevent or identify Bots so bans all around
8- Once again supply and demand, how economy wirks
9- as above


So your single argument is that this is how an economy works? No it's not how an economy is supposed to work at all. How do you even come to that conclusion? Have you ever visited the planet Earth?
____________________________
#59 Sep 08 2010 at 7:03 AM Rating: Default
*
249 posts
Rinsui wrote:
So what's the big difference between

Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.


and

Quote:
Make Retainers searchable ~ yes, i am all for it.
?

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 10:47am by Rinsui


Oh come on, you can't be that ignorant. The currently accepted standard for a MMO Auction house shows a history, is global and allows you to buy and sell in the same interface. A Retainer search would be limited to the City, no history and no buying or selling (re-listing). It will simply tell you that Retainer John Doe owned by player Jane Doe does have X number of the item you been searching for sale.

You all just want the easy mode global AH that does not allow for regional markets to develop and economic diversity in different regions.

<sarcasm>How about the game just automatically takes all the stuff in your inventory you flag for selling, check the AH and place the items slightly undercut.

While we are at it, let's also have a button "craft all" and it will automatically look what you have in your inventory and craft all the items that can be crafted in one shot, bang, done!</sarcasm>



Edited, Sep 8th 2010 3:06pm by KindjalFerrer
____________________________
#60 Sep 08 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
**
621 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

There needs to be some sort of interface that allows players to browse what goods are for sale, how many are for sale, and how much they cost, and allows you to buy and sell those goods through this interface.


This.

No more posts needed in this thread.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#61KindjalFerrer, Posted: Sep 08 2010 at 7:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) NO THANKS!
#62 Sep 08 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
31 posts
Didn't read all the posts, so I'm sorry if I'm rewriting something already said. But I just like to add that I like retainers. I hope they keep the retainer system by all means and improve.

I'm less positive about the Market, which is what most of the fuss is about I guess.
The idea is cool. I like to see these crowded markets. Even better when player bazaars are included and people are shouting their goodies and prices.
However, from a buyers perspective it is taking way too much time to get any good business done there.

I wish they do their rumored AH system on top of the market. Something like putting all items that are on sale from the stands into categorized lists, including a sell history when transactions happen trough the AH, just like FFXI. Include the name of the retainer, the stand number and the market area (for reference). Charge extra fee for sale trough AH as to not make the Market pointless.

That way you have your AH, and you pay the AH for its benefit of having an easy transaction. However, if you want to omit the extra AH fees, you can make use of the market directly. Visiting Market after obtaining knowledge from AH is more doable, cause if you then know which retainers usually sell the goodies you like for a reasonable price, then the market system isn't all that bad I suppose. Much better than having player bazaar lagging up the city's hot zones
#63 Sep 08 2010 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
40 posts
KindjalFerrer wrote:

You all just want the easy mode global AH that does not allow for regional markets to develop and economic diversity in different regions.


Regional markets? Regional markets will not develop in this game because it takes 5 seconds to go from one city to another (teleporting). There will be no diversity, because it could be way to easily taken advantage of, and prices would stabilize.

And I don't get your point about the AH being different than search-able retainers. Simply because of the fact that you can see the history of the item's prices? Could you not just have an AH that doesn't show history?

Maybe being able to search for item's and prices is "easy mode." But it's much better than the "annoying and tedious mode" of the retainer system.
#64 Sep 08 2010 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
*
249 posts
yeahicanfly wrote:
KindjalFerrer wrote:

You all just want the easy mode global AH that does not allow for regional markets to develop and economic diversity in different regions.


Regional markets? Regional markets will not develop in this game because it takes 5 seconds to go from one city to another (teleporting). There will be no diversity, because it could be way to easily taken advantage of, and prices would stabilize.

And I don't get your point about the AH being different than search-able retainers. Simply because of the fact that you can see the history of the item's prices? Could you not just have an AH that doesn't show history?

Maybe being able to search for item's and prices is "easy mode." But it's much better than the "annoying and tedious mode" of the retainer system.


Good luck with teleporting after you played for a week or two. Sure, we start with 100, but those are gone FAST. Traveling to another continent costs 6, going to a camp 4. Anima regenerates very slowly, you will treasure those Anima points and only use them when you really need to.

The classic AH allows for buying and selling in the same interface. This is creating problems and opens it to manipulation. Why do you think all those AH mods/tools where developed for other games? Because they make the great AH system even better? **** no! The only reason they exists is to exploit the system and make huge amounts of currency.

Do you now understand what the difference is?



Edited, Sep 8th 2010 3:34pm by KindjalFerrer
____________________________
#65 Sep 08 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
40 posts
KindjalFerrer wrote:
yeahicanfly wrote:
KindjalFerrer wrote:

You all just want the easy mode global AH that does not allow for regional markets to develop and economic diversity in different regions.


Regional markets? Regional markets will not develop in this game because it takes 5 seconds to go from one city to another (teleporting). There will be no diversity, because it could be way to easily taken advantage of, and prices would stabilize.

And I don't get your point about the AH being different than search-able retainers. Simply because of the fact that you can see the history of the item's prices? Could you not just have an AH that doesn't show history?

Maybe being able to search for item's and prices is "easy mode." But it's much better than the "annoying and tedious mode" of the retainer system.


Good luck with teleporting after you played for a week or two. Sure, we start with 100, but those are gone FAST. Traveling to another continent costs 6, going to a camp 4. Anima regenerates very slowly, you will treasure those Anima points and only use them when you really need to.

The classic AH allows for buying and selling in the same interface. This is creating problems and opens it to manipulation. Why do you think all those AH mods/tools where developed for other games? Because they make the great AH system even better? **** no! The only reason they exists is to exploit the system and make huge amounts of currency.

Do you now understand what the difference is?



Edited, Sep 8th 2010 3:34pm by KindjalFerrer


I see your point about anima, but I still don't see regional markets really developing and fleshing out in a video game world where even running from one city to another takes only around 30 minutes. There may be some small price discrepancies, but I honestly can't see true separate regional markets developing. So we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't know what these AH mods/tools are that you speak of as I haven't really played too many MMOs other than ffxi, which I also played a LONG time ago and not for really that long. I am looking at it more as an economic question than I am as a video game question (as I am a student of economics) and maybe that is putting me in the wrong. But I will say from a pure economic viewpoint, a easy to navigate AH will help to link buyers with sellers, which is a good thing :)

I see what you are saying about possible exploits, but I have been to the market wards (shudder), and hopefully we can agree that something needs to be done
#66 Sep 08 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Decent
*
249 posts
yeahicanfly wrote:
KindjalFerrer wrote:
yeahicanfly wrote:
KindjalFerrer wrote:

You all just want the easy mode global AH that does not allow for regional markets to develop and economic diversity in different regions.


Regional markets? Regional markets will not develop in this game because it takes 5 seconds to go from one city to another (teleporting). There will be no diversity, because it could be way to easily taken advantage of, and prices would stabilize.

And I don't get your point about the AH being different than search-able retainers. Simply because of the fact that you can see the history of the item's prices? Could you not just have an AH that doesn't show history?

Maybe being able to search for item's and prices is "easy mode." But it's much better than the "annoying and tedious mode" of the retainer system.


Good luck with teleporting after you played for a week or two. Sure, we start with 100, but those are gone FAST. Traveling to another continent costs 6, going to a camp 4. Anima regenerates very slowly, you will treasure those Anima points and only use them when you really need to.

The classic AH allows for buying and selling in the same interface. This is creating problems and opens it to manipulation. Why do you think all those AH mods/tools where developed for other games? Because they make the great AH system even better? **** no! The only reason they exists is to exploit the system and make huge amounts of currency.

Do you now understand what the difference is?



Edited, Sep 8th 2010 3:34pm by KindjalFerrer


I see your point about anima, but I still don't see regional markets really developing and fleshing out in a video game world where even running from one city to another takes only around 30 minutes. There may be some small price discrepancies, but I honestly can't see true separate regional markets developing. So we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't know what these AH mods/tools are that you speak of as I haven't really played too many MMOs other than ffxi, which I also played a LONG time ago and not for really that long. I am looking at it more as an economic question than I am as a video game question (as I am a student of economics) and maybe that is putting me in the wrong. But I will say from a pure economic viewpoint, a easy to navigate AH will help to link buyers with sellers, which is a good thing :)

I see what you are saying about possible exploits, but I have been to the market wards (shudder), and hopefully we can agree that something needs to be done


I agree, i have no problems with a regional search on retainers.

Drops and harvestable materials are heavily localized. It is a really long trip from Gridania to Limsa if i may say so. Ul'Dah is the central economic hub even in the lore due to it's placement between the other 2 nations. Even if it only takes 1 hour (you have to get back too), not everyone will make that trip, i bet less than 30% will be willing to sacrifice 1 hour of their online time just to go check the Retainers in another nation unles they plan to stay there for a longer time.

This opens up possibilities for crafters/merchants to make these trips on a regular basis stocking up "exotic" items from other nations in their retainers.

This is essential how the real life economy works or worked. Spices, Tobacco and Tea where a precious commodity. Of cause now that we exploit the producing countries to the maximum possible, everything has become cheap and readily available.

Considering youre a student of economics, I think you can see where i am going with this.
____________________________
#67 Sep 08 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
40 posts
KindjalFerrer wrote:

I agree, i have no problems with a regional search on retainers.

Drops and harvestable materials are heavily localized. It is a really long trip from Gridania to Limsa if i may say so. Ul'Dah is the central economic hub even in the lore due to it's placement between the other 2 nations. Even if it only takes 1 hour (you have to get back too), not everyone will make that trip, i bet less than 30% will be willing to sacrifice 1 hour of their online time just to go check the Retainers in another nation unles they plan to stay there for a longer time.

This opens up possibilities for crafters/merchants to make these trips on a regular basis stocking up "exotic" items from other nations in their retainers.

This is essential how the real life economy works or worked. Spices, Tobacco and Tea where a precious commodity. Of cause now that we exploit the producing countries to the maximum possible, everything has become cheap and readily available.

Considering youre a student of economics, I think you can see where i am going with this.


I do see where you are going with this, but I still disagree. The real world is much larger and more complex than Eorzea... and sadly, there's also no teleporting or chocobos :(

Plus as time goes by there will be a Jeuno-like hub city that everyone does the majority of their buying/selling in anyway
#68 Sep 08 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
549 posts
Quote:
The real world is much larger and more complex than Eorzea... and sadly, there's also no teleporting or chocobos :(


Or so you think....
____________________________
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
#69 Sep 08 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
40 posts
Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different item


To be perfectly frank, except for #7, these are features of an efficient economy. The fewer barriers there are to entry into a "market" for an item, the faster the price of an item will head towards thecost of an item. The MMORPG economy, at least the part that results from interaction (things like vendors don't act like parts of a normal economy) is essentially made up of three inefficiencies:

- Inefficiency of time
- Inefficiency of knowledge
- Inefficiency of ability

In addition to the product actually being useful, more profitable products in MMORPGs have to display as many of the three as possible. If it doesn't take long to farm something or make something, everybody knows where to get it or how to make it, and everybody has the ability to get it or make it, it's going to stop being very profitable very quickly. And with things like FFXIah and the fact that there isn't a lot of cost involved in changing what you farm (it's not like you have the capital expenses of shifting from, say a mithkabob factory to a shihei factory), shifts in item profitability are going to be extremely quick.

If you have a harvest/synth that either doesn't take a lot of time or display specialized skills (like, say, a high level craft or high level character before everyone has one), that harvest/synth *shouldn't* make profit for long.



Edited, Sep 8th 2010 10:56am by DSzymborski
____________________________
--
Dan Szymborski
VALEFOR - Aurelian
#70 Sep 08 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
169 posts
I'm for the searchable retainer system with unique buy/sell points, myself, for one primary reason.

Edit, sorry, mis-keyed.

The auction house bots.

RMT (and other bots) can destroy an AH with single point of sale/buy. They are on a loop, and they can set the prices. Your options are to cheat with them on another product to afford their product, or to find ways to kill the single point of sale.

Like our economics student said above. The single point of sale is the best way for economies. However, unlike real life, you can't drop off your clone and leave him with a script of what to do over... and over... and over... to corner a market.

This is part of why SE mentioned the retainers would stay until the player market stabilized, so that we would get used to what the prices should be before the bots got involved to try to take over and force specific pricing. The retainer search, great idea.

The AH... not so much until we can recognize inflated bot pricing for what it is.


Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:54pm by GUDare
____________________________
XIV: Misfit Stormrider - Kashuan
XI: Kujata - Razoredge (Long Retired)

A possible retainer idea

#71 Sep 08 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,500 posts
Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different item
FFXI's AH while serviceable has a mayor flaw, while bidding for hidden prices may seems interesting and smart, that sort of system encourages undercutting and punish regular providers, allow me to elaborate.

While constant providers and crafters exist, a large part of the community didn't sell the same item constantly, for them there is no concern on keeping the price high or at least stable, these one time sellers would prefer a quick return rather than hefty one.

The selling order was a deal breaker in this matter (cheapest sells first) and hidden prices only encourage this further when you can undercut the average cost by 10%, 20% or even higher percentage and still get a 100% return sell, ultimately rewarding low risk with sell's speed.

But that's not all, people attempting to keep the prices stable also have to endure some risks, if their items don't sell quickly (due higher prices than under-cutters) they will be returned, forcing them to pay the "display" fee again, there is no wonder than in this even odds most eventual sellers decide to undercut the price without a second thought.

We need a retailer search system and one of the things that this system requires is to display item's prices, while this will keep the same selling order (cheapest sells first) at least the vendors will actually lose any price undercut directly.

Ken
____________________________
"Maybe it means: you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. Nine-millimeter here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous *** in the Valley of Darkness." - Jules.
FFXIV: Mabel Rand (Gugnir)
FFXI: Kenage, retired.
K&K forever!,
#72 Sep 09 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Excellent
*
108 posts
Need to learn to check for page 2.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 3:13am by DragoonRising
#73 Sep 09 2010 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
Quote:
Quote:
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.

Quote:

4-Don't see a problem, this is how economy works
8- Once again supply and demand, how economy wirks
9- as above


So your single argument is that this is how an economy works? No it's not how an economy is supposed to work at all. How do you even come to that conclusion? Have you ever visited the planet Earth?


I assume that living in the planet Earth you have heard of countries like China and India (used as most well known in this example) and that because of their cheap labour costs products and services in these countries are flooding the western markets?

I think this is a similar "Earthen" example of the situation above. In no way do I have an economy degree but it seems to me to be very simple.

Quote:
Keenage wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different itemFFXI's AH while serviceable has a mayor flaw, while bidding for hidden prices may seems interesting and smart, that sort of system encourages undercutting and punish regular providers, allow me to elaborate.


While constant providers and crafters exist, a large part of the community didn't sell the same item constantly, for them there is no concern on keeping the price high or at least stable, these one time sellers would prefer a quick return rather than hefty one.

The selling order was a deal breaker in this matter (cheapest sells first) and hidden prices only encourage this further when you can undercut the average cost by 10%, 20% or even higher percentage and still get a 100% return sell, ultimately rewarding low risk with sell's speed.

But that's not all, people attempting to keep the prices stable also have to endure some risks, if their items don't sell quickly (due higher prices than under-cutters) they will be returned, forcing them to pay the "display" fee again, there is no wonder than in this even odds most eventual sellers decide to undercut the price without a second thought.

We need a retailer search system and one of the things that this system requires is to display item's prices, while this will keep the same selling order (cheapest sells first) at least the vendors will actually lose any price undercut directly.

Ken


I understand your point of view that the Retainer System isntead of an AH will protect the regular sellers but by your own statment the AH will defend the Buyer so it's mainly a Tic for Tac.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 8:57am by Hugus
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#74 Sep 09 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
481 posts
GUDare wrote:

RMT (and other bots) can destroy an AH with single point of sale/buy. They are on a loop, and they can set the prices. Your options are to cheat with them on another product to afford their product, or to find ways to kill the single point of sale.


That's a common misconception, but it most cases, no they can't destroy the AH.

The only way they can manipulate things in the long run is if they can monopolise a source of goods (e.g. NM drops). If they can, that's a problem of the game, not the AH.

Otherwise, if they try to jack up prices, then other players can make a killing undercutting them. If they try to drive down prices, then other players get a cheap source of goods.

In FFXI there was a minor flaw in the implementation that it only showed a history of the last ten sales of an item. Thus it was possible to 'wipe' the history by making ten trades. However, I never saw this used to manipulate prices successfully other than in the short term.
____________________________
FFXIV WHM/SCH/PLD 50 All DoH/DoL 50
FFXI (retired) WHM75 BLM37 NIN37 Kujata
#75 Sep 09 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
481 posts
yeahicanfly wrote:

I don't know what these AH mods/tools are that you speak of as I haven't really played too many MMOs other than ffxi, which I also played a LONG time ago and not for really that long. I am looking at it more as an economic question than I am as a video game question (as I am a student of economics) and maybe that is putting me in the wrong. But I will say from a pure economic viewpoint, a easy to navigate AH will help to link buyers with sellers, which is a good thing :)


WoW (which allows user mods to the UI) for instance, has some remarkably sophisticated auction add-ons. These are not essential, but make trading a lot quicker.
____________________________
FFXIV WHM/SCH/PLD 50 All DoH/DoL 50
FFXI (retired) WHM75 BLM37 NIN37 Kujata
#76 Sep 09 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
**
782 posts
Quote:
So what's the big difference between


No price history.
#77 Sep 09 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
I see alot of people complaining that RMT guys are better at the AH, and can take it over. I see no way that they can't do the same to retainers. They have more people, more time, organization, and the largest pool of gil to monopolize stuff.
____________________________


#78 Sep 09 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,566 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
I see alot of people complaining that RMT guys are better at the AH, and can take it over. I see no way that they can't do the same to retainers. They have more people, more time, organization, and the largest pool of gil to monopolize stuff.



This.


Also, I realize I was a bit over zealous in my OP -- mostly of the sake of comedy. I do like the idea behind retainers. It levels the playing field against folks who, like in XI, can keep their items up for sale indefinitely in a bazaar and without in-game cost to them.

The truth about RMT is that they're the cockroaches of the gaming world. They will thrive no matter what. If at launch, things are as is, they will find a way to use it to their 24/7 advantage.

SE's policy for dealing with RMT, at least in XI, was to "shoot the hostage" and hope it hits the villain too. This retainer/market ward system is a sign of that trend continuing. I like other things they've done, like making gathering nigh impossible to bot from the locations being only a graphic to the whole mini-game aspect.

I would be completely content with a search and find function as apposed to a traditional auction house. As it stands now, most people do without proper gear because there is just no way to find a complete collection of rank and class appropriate stuff.



Edited, Sep 9th 2010 7:04pm by Sephrick
#79 Sep 09 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
The retainer idea is great, but the current form is horrendous. There is no way to not spend more then 1 hour trying to find one item you need. I am low in wind shards, its all I want. Wading through 100 zombies to find one person selling them is ridiculous. Its to the point where I just dont craft things that need wind shards. Now how about rare goods? I desperately want to make a Bronze Chain piece of armor, but it requires a Hempen Tabard. I've spent the last 3 days searching zombie wards for a Hempen Tabard to no luck. Each day has been more then an hour search each time.

I understand its Beta, and some people here are saying that SE is going to implement some kind of search function. I hope they do on launch. Its got to be tough trying to balance ways around RMT, but players cant be expected to spend hours just searching for one item. Thats a deal breaker for me. If this game was 100% perfect in all aspects but it takes three days to find a lvl 5 item, I am out.
#80 Sep 09 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
23 posts
The current retainer system is not bad. It need some improvement(mainly lag issue). Waiting for retainer to load or trying to select bunch of retainer clustered together is just pain in the ***. Maybe SE should implement maximum capacity in each ward to eliminate this problem...

Another thing... Without AH, we're restricted selling/searching items in one region. In open beta we're only allowed to have one retainer. I'm not talking about having multiple retainer in one city but I do want to have a retainer for each major city. I wish this will change in retail version. I hate to be restricted on the location of my business. =/
#81 Sep 09 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
**
472 posts
I used the retainer system for the first time today. It is like going to the grocery store, but nothing is labeled and there are people all around selling you stuff and you have no idea what they are selling until you go up and talk to them. Fun times!

I have always liked the bazaar idea. But the retainer system is too time consuming for everyday use. Hopefully they get rid of the retainer system and stop trying to charge us an extra dollar for what an AH would do on any other MMO for free.
#82 Sep 09 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
**
437 posts
The extra dollar a month is for every retainer after the one you can hire in game. Everyone gets 1 retainer and 1 PC for the regular monthly fee. So unless you absolutely NEED to have more than 80 items on your selling mule, you should be fine.
____________________________
行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#83 Sep 09 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
**
472 posts
shinichoco wrote:
The extra dollar a month is for every retainer after the one you can hire in game. Everyone gets 1 retainer and 1 PC for the regular monthly fee. So unless you absolutely NEED to have more than 80 items on your selling mule, you should be fine.


I am vague sometimes, you are correct with the above statement. But mainly my point was more towards charging us in general for extra things that come standard in other MMO's.

#84 Sep 09 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
23 posts
I completely forgotten about the additional fee for extra retainer. But the fact is we're still restricted to selling or searching items in one location without AH. Anyway, it would be nice if AH would be implemented soon after retail is released. One could only hope for... hah!
#85 Sep 09 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,500 posts
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
Keenage wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different itemFFXI's AH while serviceable has a mayor flaw, while bidding for hidden prices may seems interesting and smart, that sort of system encourages undercutting and punish regular providers, allow me to elaborate.


While constant providers and crafters exist, a large part of the community didn't sell the same item constantly, for them there is no concern on keeping the price high or at least stable, these one time sellers would prefer a quick return rather than hefty one.

The selling order was a deal breaker in this matter (cheapest sells first) and hidden prices only encourage this further when you can undercut the average cost by 10%, 20% or even higher percentage and still get a 100% return sell, ultimately rewarding low risk with sell's speed.

But that's not all, people attempting to keep the prices stable also have to endure some risks, if their items don't sell quickly (due higher prices than under-cutters) they will be returned, forcing them to pay the "display" fee again, there is no wonder than in this even odds most eventual sellers decide to undercut the price without a second thought.

We need a retailer search system and one of the things that this system requires is to display item's prices, while this will keep the same selling order (cheapest sells first) at least the vendors will actually lose any price undercut directly.

Ken


I understand your point of view that the Retainer System isntead of an AH will protect the regular sellers but by your own statment the AH will defend the Buyer so it's mainly a Tic for Tac.
Not really, in an AH system with hidden prices, the individual who suffers the most is the Buyer, because unless you go gil by gil until the correct price in most cases you are extra paying whatever you buy.

But not just that, the selling system makes sure that you always extra pay the most among the items available to purchase, since the item with the cheapest price will be selected first no matter how many are acquirable with the amount of gil you bid.

Ken
____________________________
"Maybe it means: you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. Nine-millimeter here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous *** in the Valley of Darkness." - Jules.
FFXIV: Mabel Rand (Gugnir)
FFXI: Kenage, retired.
K&K forever!,
#86 Sep 09 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
*
154 posts
What are these bazaar rooms and retainers? Sounds like i'm missing something big.. And where can I find them?
#87 Sep 10 2010 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
kenage wrote:
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
Keenage wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different itemFFXI's AH while serviceable has a mayor flaw, while bidding for hidden prices may seems interesting and smart, that sort of system encourages undercutting and punish regular providers, allow me to elaborate.


While constant providers and crafters exist, a large part of the community didn't sell the same item constantly, for them there is no concern on keeping the price high or at least stable, these one time sellers would prefer a quick return rather than hefty one.

The selling order was a deal breaker in this matter (cheapest sells first) and hidden prices only encourage this further when you can undercut the average cost by 10%, 20% or even higher percentage and still get a 100% return sell, ultimately rewarding low risk with sell's speed.

But that's not all, people attempting to keep the prices stable also have to endure some risks, if their items don't sell quickly (due higher prices than under-cutters) they will be returned, forcing them to pay the "display" fee again, there is no wonder than in this even odds most eventual sellers decide to undercut the price without a second thought.

We need a retailer search system and one of the things that this system requires is to display item's prices, while this will keep the same selling order (cheapest sells first) at least the vendors will actually lose any price undercut directly.

Ken


I understand your point of view that the Retainer System isntead of an AH will protect the regular sellers but by your own statment the AH will defend the Buyer so it's mainly a Tic for Tac.
Not really, in an AH system with hidden prices, the individual who suffers the most is the Buyer, because unless you go gil by gil until the correct price in most cases you are extra paying whatever you buy.

But not just that, the selling system makes sure that you always extra pay the most among the items available to purchase, since the item with the cheapest price will be selected first no matter how many are acquirable with the amount of gil you bid.

Ken


When I say that the AH will defend the buyer, it isn't because of the ammount of Gil they spend. As you stated yourself the AH allows for underpricing which will be detremental to the "usual" sellers (as oposed to the casual) but that in itself is the Buer's benefit - a choice to purchase a cheaper product because the supply of that product just increased from it's usual ammount.
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#88 Sep 10 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
Sage
*
130 posts
The most advanced marketing economy in any game is EvE online. If you want to see how economy works in a game, you should look there.

Now back to the AH.

- You can make an AH region only
- You can prevent addons in FFXIV
- An AH will not promote botting or RMT

RMT works like this. There are kids who play a certain amount of time for real $. They must make a certain amount of Gil in that time frame. What they do when that time frame comes to an end is to sell the goods at very low profit so they will sell. If they do not sell the goods, the other RMT player will sell them. They will not influence the economy by an huge amount. They will not buy/resell. They grind goods/gil and try to quickly sell it. This can be good and bad, good because we, the players can buy goods cheap, bad because we, the players, who sell the same goods, get less profit. So they want to make any profit as fast as possible with the least amount of effort.

In the end, the Gil made, is sold for real $. So basically the Gil is not taken out of the game, and there for do not influence the economy.

Botting however is mostly done for levelling (while in the process sell the loot). Most botting you see in games where grinding is the main source of levelling or/if there is no mechanism to prevent botting. AH however does not promote botting and should not be used as an excuse to not implement an AH.

Also economy basics are supply and demand. This means that it will not ***** up grinding sites with angry players like someone said. If you are that kind of player that wants to make profit by grinding certain goods for huge profit, you are going to look for it. If you see prices are decreasing and time versus profit is not worth the effort anymore you are going to look for another opportunity. There are a lot of goods in FFXIV, so that there will be lots of spots to grind.

So in the end, if you see a RMT selling goods for low profit, be smart and buy the stack and resell them for easy Gil. This will not ***** up any economy in the game with an AH system.

Also, the RMT player can sell their goods for cheap with a retainer, there is no real difference. So again no excuse to not implement an AH system.

The retainer system as of now is crap for two reasons.

First you do not know at what price you can sell/buy your goods unless you research an huge amount of time to find the best price and even then it already could have changed. If you are looking for certain goods, you must be very lucky to either find it and find the lowest price.

Second. Some players like to play the AH game. The retainer mechanism is preventing this.

So if you want a search function implemented then it is way easier to implement an AH system and use the resources for the retainer to fix UI lag :P

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 9:03am by Shoomy
#89 Sep 10 2010 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
Shoomy wrote:
The most advanced marketing economy in any game is EvE online. If you want to see how economy works in a game, you should look there.

Now back to the AH.

- You can make an AH region only
- You can prevent addons in FFXIV
- An AH will not promote botting or RMT

RMT works like this. There are kids who play a certain amount of time for real $. They must make a certain amount of Gil in that time frame. What they do when that time frame comes to an end is to sell the goods at very low profit so they will sell. If they do not sell the goods, the other RMT player will sell them. They will not influence the economy by an huge amount. They will not buy/resell. They grind goods/gil and try to quickly sell it. This can be good and bad, good because we, the players can buy goods cheap, bad because we, the players, who sell the same goods, get less profit. So they want to make any profit as fast as possible with the least amount of effort.

In the end, the Gil made, is sold for real $. So basically the Gil is not taken out of the game, and there for do not influence the economy.

Botting however is mostly done for levelling (while in the process sell the loot). Most botting you see in games where grinding is the main source of levelling or/if there is no mechanism to prevent botting. AH however does not promote botting and should not be used as an excuse to not implement an AH.

Also economy basics are supply and demand. This means that it will not ***** up grinding sites with angry players like someone said. If you are that kind of player that wants to make profit by grinding certain goods for huge profit, you are going to look for it. If you see prices are decreasing and time versus profit is not worth the effort anymore you are going to look for another opportunity. There are a lot of goods in FFXIV, so that there will be lots of spots to grind.

So in the end, if you see a RMT selling goods for low profit, be smart and buy the stack and resell them for easy Gil. This will not ***** up any economy in the game with an AH system.

Also, the RMT player can sell their goods for cheap with a retainer, there is no real difference. So again no excuse to not implement an AH system.

The retainer system as of now is crap for two reasons.

First you do not know at what price you can sell/buy your goods unless you research an huge amount of time to find the best price and even then it already could have changed. If you are looking for certain goods, you must be very lucky to either find it and find the lowest price.

Second. Some players like to play the AH game. The retainer mechanism is preventing this.

So if you want a search function implemented then it is way easier to implement an AH system and use the resources for the retainer to fix UI lag :P

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 9:03am by Shoomy


In regards to:

"- You can make an AH region only
- You can prevent addons in FFXIV"

to my best knowledge both of these points were in existance in FFXI (haven't player in a few years) and still RMT had a very real presence.

An on your statments that RMT's influence in the game's economy is small or non existante feels to me to be lack of fist hand knowledge. I still remember one Christmas (2005/06 ?) in which prices went over for 90 or even 100%. Now, either it happening during Christmas was just a big coincidence or a lot of people got their gifts online, used money given and spent it online, through the RMT that year.

Personally I don't care much what impact their sales have on the AH as the lower the price the best overall for everyone. This, as long as they do not use botting/exploits to obtain materials. What damages the game the most (in my view) is the Gil that is passed on from RMT to other players (if you can call these people players, cheaters would be best). Gil obtained by real money causes two inbalances: it doesn't reward effort ingame equally and causes the Gil buyers to not value said Gil and offering huge ammounts of it for something that the usual comunity considers of a lower value.

At the end of the day I don't care about RMT (with no botting), I would prefer to just ban all Gil byuers/sellers. Once this market is closed (one can only ope lol) the rest will be taken care of.
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#90 Sep 10 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
Sage
*
130 posts
Quote:
An on your statments that RMT's influence in the game's economy is small or non existante feels to me to be lack of fist hand knowledge. I still remember one Christmas (2005/06 ?) in which prices went over for 90 or even 100%. Now, either it happening during Christmas was just a big coincidence or a lot of people got their gifts online, used money given and spent it online, through the RMT that year.


Mostly prices will decrease when a lot of players have time to play, more supplies. So it kind of surprises me the prices went up by 100% But there could be many reasons why prices went up, the best reason I can think of is that players rerolled an alt. Obvious reason is that the demand was greater then the supplies thus increasing prices.

In the end RMT does not influence the market. Why ? Because they sell goods at low prices so the market decrease in value. But on the other hand, players who buy ingame money do not sell goods for profit, because they do not grind for a profit, which results in less supplies, thus increasing the market value. This is a circle where it averages both out. In the end the total market value will stabilize where loot value is transferred in ingame money value. In other words, it does not make any difference if you pay 1 Gil for 1 shard if you sell 1 ore for 1 Gil or pay 10 Gil for 1 shard when you sell 1 ore for 10 Gil :) Total market value is increased but total market value compared to total ingame money is the same aka there is no ingame money leaving the game.

RMT can be good and bad at the same time. In China for example, games live on RMT and it is not a shame to buy ingame money. On the other hand if you need to grind 5 hours straight to buy your shiny weapon, which cost you RL $50, I can see why you opt for buying the amount of ingame money for $35. I am not saying I defend RMT, by no means. The game should be played not bought, but I can imagine why certain players buy ingame money. Also I do not care about it either :D I do care how those annoying ingame RMT sellers are treated in RL though :s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ketOtwjAdO4


Edited, Sep 10th 2010 11:30am by Shoomy
#91 Sep 10 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
If I remember correctly the steep increase in prices really only affected later stage, optimal character kind of gear. If I remember it well Scorpion Harness went from 300k, 500k to 1 million within a month, Just as I was getting enough Gil to buy one myself while most mats/consumables staied at their original price.

If I'm not mistaken I used to obtain Gil from harvesting the Yeagudo area in Sarutabaruta and I remember how frustated I got when the price for the SH went up by so much and the Red Moko (and there was another one even more rare/more expensive) stayed about the same.

Within a week or so this change was noticed over most of the equipment which was considered an non essential but highly desirable for higher level jobs.
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#92 Sep 10 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
***
2,535 posts
Hugus wrote:
An on your statments that RMT's influence in the game's economy is small or non existante feels to me to be lack of fist hand knowledge. I still remember one Christmas (2005/06 ?) in which prices went over for 90 or even 100%. Now, either it happening during Christmas was just a big coincidence or a lot of people got their gifts online, used money given and spent it online, through the RMT that year.


Honestly, the notorious Christmas Inflation was not the sole responsibility of RMT - it was a combination of factors, not the least of which being SE's poor economy design, in particular, the widespread use of non-binding gear, and the existence of HQs.

Honestly, the economic structure of FFXI was a mess, pure and simple, and to the extent that 14's economic model takes after 11, it will likely turn out to be a mess as well - perhaps an even bigger mess, when factoring other aspects of the game design.
#93 Sep 11 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,566 posts
BastokFL wrote:
Hugus wrote:
An on your statments that RMT's influence in the game's economy is small or non existante feels to me to be lack of fist hand knowledge. I still remember one Christmas (2005/06 ?) in which prices went over for 90 or even 100%. Now, either it happening during Christmas was just a big coincidence or a lot of people got their gifts online, used money given and spent it online, through the RMT that year.


Honestly, the notorious Christmas Inflation was not the sole responsibility of RMT - it was a combination of factors, not the least of which being SE's poor economy design, in particular, the widespread use of non-binding gear, and the existence of HQs.

Honestly, the economic structure of FFXI was a mess, pure and simple, and to the extent that 14's economic model takes after 11, it will likely turn out to be a mess as well - perhaps an even bigger mess, when factoring other aspects of the game design.



Aye, the Christmas 2006 inflation was due to a perfect storm of events. It wasn't just RMT who were marking up the prices. But if the avalanche occurred on a mountain SE built, RMT were the echo that loosened the snow. But by a year later, things seemed to have leveled out and remained so until the recent decline that game has been seeing in it's twilight years. Million dollar items now go for less than 100k due to the supply finally being higher than the demand.


Also, I thought of another major concern regarding retainers. What if people choose to abandon selling through retainers altogether? We've been talking about people undercutting and finding a way to get their items sold first; what's to stop folks from /shouting what they have available on a ten line macro?

It's reasonable to think that people who want their wares sold now will advertise the bazaar on their main character standing in the Adventurer's Guild. Get a few hundred people doing this at once and it becomes impossible to have a conversation due to the poorly designed chat window. Granted, we can filter /shout, but there are other things we could then miss out on because we have to block the advertisements.

On top of that we now have a few hundred unnecessary bodies crowding the area where we manage retainers, start main quests and handle levequests.

And of course we can blist up to 200 people, but I can see this catching on when the choices are "watch orange text roll by in a single zone" or "examine NPCs in one of eight buggy zones where half of them don't load."

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 2:16am by Sephrick
#94 Sep 11 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
178 posts
Quote:
NO THANKS!

AH just creates problems.

1. Player checks AH for highest/fastest selling item.
2. Player goes out to farm the sh*t out of the mobs/harvesting nodes.
3. Player has a crapload of competiton by other players and RMT that had the same idea.
4. Undercutting starts. Prices crash because item is flooded into the AH.
6. Spawn camping is starting and the environment becomes hostile and angry.
7. Player gets frustrated and starts to bot.
8. All crafted items using this farmed item become cheap and not profitable unless you HQ it. NQ sells for a loss.
9. Economy is @#%^ed.
10. Start at 1. with a different item.

Make Retainers searchable ~ yes, i am all for it.


AH? YES PLS

1. Gilsellers realise players are having a hard time finding what they are looking for with the retainer system
2. Their elaborate farming linkshells now more so concentrate on their other purpose, to create an internal economy to sell items to everyone direct
3. So player wants to craft themselves an item for there DoW class
4. Spends 2 days or ~7 hours trying to find all the mats
5. Player gets frustrated and ends up buying with RM, the item from the gilsellers

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 2:44am by MaFi0s0
#95 Sep 12 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
**
782 posts
Quote:
AH? YES PLS

1. Gilsellers realise players are having a hard time finding what they are looking for with the retainer system
2. Their elaborate farming linkshells now more so concentrate on their other purpose, to create an internal economy to sell items to everyone direct
3. So player wants to craft themselves an item for there DoW class
4. Spends 2 days or ~7 hours trying to find all the mats
5. Player gets frustrated and ends up buying with RM, the item from the gilsellers


How does this scenario work? For this to work you have to get rid of everyone who isn't RMT and the person looking for an item. If something is in demand non-RMT players will also create a supply.
#96 Sep 12 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,608 posts
Problem with the retainer is it is your mog house as well.

As much as an auction house will be much more convenient in looking for goods, it is too much late in the game to make such a big change I'm afraid.

I think the devs expected people to set up their retainers in the deferential wards like a self-disciplined category per ward. Though it would be much easier if they named them, say, Alchemist or General ward, ect. Pretty much all wards except Black are not being used, people are just cramming all their retainers into one location which makes it a bigger cluster@#%^ than what outside Rolanberry fields once was.

Who knows, maybe they will sloppily stick npcs outside the wards as the auction house like what DDO did when they added theirs.

I just wish they would add sort to the inventory. It is indescribable!

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 1:07pm by LyleVertigo
____________________________

1 2 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)