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Cross-class abilities worth it?Follow

#1 Sep 07 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let's say you want to use Conjurer nukes on another class. Is the damage drastically reduced to a point where they are useless? Or is it unnoticeable except for recasts, duration, etc? I haven't been able to find any specific information about this.
#2 Sep 07 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Don't know about for conjurer but I have an example for Marauder skills used on a Lancer. Bloodbath on Marauder heals back about 70% of the damage dealt out to an enemy, on Lancer it only heals back about 50% and has a 10 or 15 second(believe it's 15, not sure) longer reuse time but is still a decent skill, on Marauder this skill is a phenomenal skill though. Trunksplitter did the same amount of damage, but had a little longer reuse timer than before.
#3 Sep 07 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Kefkafreak wrote:
Let's say you want to use Conjurer nukes on another class. Is the damage drastically reduced to a point where they are useless? Or is it unnoticeable except for recasts, duration, etc? I haven't been able to find any specific information about this.


I wouldn't mind hearing somebody flesh out these kinds of details.
#4 Sep 07 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, judging from the physical skills, you'd be losing about 20-40% if your stats are backing the power of the spells. I doubt they will be as effective on say Marauder...
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#5 Sep 07 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Good question. hard to test actually. You can only compare if u keep track of the ability's effect at X level and then use it on another class at that X level to see if the effect is the same.
#6 Sep 07 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah the recast can be a big drawback, I used the pugilist 2nd wind move on my conjurer & thaumaturge just to have that bonus healing move with all the useless TP I had, worked fine since I also had cure & sacrifice and was grinding easy mobs. However if I really needed that 2nd wind and couldn't use it that would suck. I guess I'd look at it in regards to cost/benefit because cross-classing stuff really helps you get through the lower levels, but once your particular class becomes stronger it's better to use those abilities.

As for putting nukes on a DoW, I guess a lot of that would depend on how you level your stats. If you're all dex & str then it may not do a whole lot, but if you raise the magic stats it could work alright aside from any recast issues...

I bet if I switch to marauder my Fire spell would be pretty sweet since I'm built for magic, but my axe would suck with my 15STR & 13DEX = P



Edited, Sep 7th 2010 8:31pm by TwistedOwl
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#7 Sep 07 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just curious as to whether a "mixed" (a melee or tank using magic) build is viable with the right stats.
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#8 Sep 07 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yeah the recast can be a big drawback


For Bloodbath it's not bad at all. Since the normal reuse is 1 minute adding another 10-15 seconds isn't too bad.
#9 Sep 07 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kefkafreak wrote:
I'm just curious as to whether a "mixed" (a melee or tank using magic) build is viable with the right stats.


I'm sure it could be with the right stat tweaking. Tanking could take less on STR/DEX, DD could take less on VIT/MND, but the latter would also affect your HP/MP so you'd have to play around with it to get the exact setup you want, but it seems doable. There's also traits that can be bought with guild marks such as "Conjurer Action Affinity +10" that, if put on a marauder, sounds like it would improve the recast times & effectiveness of conjurer abilities. People haven't gotten to play with that much yet though, so a lot of that is speculation...

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 8:41pm by TwistedOwl
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#10 Sep 07 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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BRizzl3 wrote:
Quote:
Yeah the recast can be a big drawback


For Bloodbath it's not bad at all. Since the normal reuse is 1 minute adding another 10-15 seconds isn't too bad.


Think maybe it gets even worse if putting DoW abilities onto a DoM and vice versa, 2nd Wind is 1:00 recast on pug and 1:35 on my conjurer...not a big deal if you're slaughtering blue mobs outside of town, but could make a huge difference in big fights...that particular example isn't that great, but you know what I'm gettin' at



Edited, Sep 7th 2010 8:50pm by TwistedOwl
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#11 Sep 07 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Pugilist's second wind does ~150 on main while on sub it does ~100 for me. Also it appears recasts from non-main jobs are all extended by 50%

That's what I got so far.
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#12 Sep 07 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also it appears recasts from non-main jobs are all extended by 50%


I'll quote myself from earlier lol.

Quote:
Since the normal reuse is 1 minute adding another 10-15 seconds isn't too bad.

#13 Sep 07 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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the problem with using magic as a gladiator/marauder or something like that, is that I believe weapons have a magic power stat, which would be like 15 on a conj weapon, and at the same level a sword would have like 4. I saw this on the data mined items zam posted, but i don't recall if I've seen it in the game. if could be hidden, or if it may not have any effect at all. Either way, your int/mind stats would be too low to really use nukes for anything other than pulling. Heals may be worth it if second wind doesnt cut it.
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#14 Sep 07 2010 at 8:56 PM Rating: Default
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Can you imagine a 50 Glad with high tier conj/tham abilities. It would be like a RDM. Cool..
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#15 Sep 07 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
the problem with using magic as a gladiator/marauder or something like that, is that I believe weapons have a magic power stat, which would be like 15 on a conj weapon, and at the same level a sword would have like 4. I saw this on the data mined items zam posted, but i don't recall if I've seen it in the game. if could be hidden, or if it may not have any effect at all. Either way, your int/mind stats would be too low to really use nukes for anything other than pulling. Heals may be worth it if second wind doesnt cut it.


Psst: I think shields have higher magic stats, and you can set abilities to your subweapons.^.^/
#16 Sep 07 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been playing a GLD with cure. It's been really useful, pulls hate, heals mage, can cast while moving. Very nice, not much health but some is better than none and again, pulls hate.
#17 Sep 07 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Just to clarify, how this system works is equivalent to what the sub-class system was in FFXI? Thanks for the responses in advance.
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#18 Sep 07 2010 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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This whole thread is a tl;dr for me right now, but cross-class works like this:

For example, the Lancer's skill that increases damage. Cooldown of 60 seconds. Does 1.5x damage for next attack, roughly.

Use it on a pugilist. 90 second cooldown, 1.5x damage for next attack, roughly.

The only actual downside to cross-class skills is an increase in reuse time. Still highly worth it for many skills.
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#19 Sep 07 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The only actual downside to cross-class skills is an increase in reuse time. Still highly worth it for many skills.


Eh, I'm pretty sure my thunder and cure did less on my THM than they did on my conjurer. It looks like it will depend on the ability in question.
#20 Sep 07 2010 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Ever thought that it might be that your conjurer is a higher rank level than ur thm? Like I said, compare it to both EQUALLY leveled classes before making judgement.
#21 Sep 07 2010 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The only actual downside to cross-class skills is an increase in reuse time.

Same with Second Wind as described above. And possibly Bloodbath(or w/e) too. It's not just recast but seems to be potency on many abilities too. Will need some data to list out which ones take the hit.
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#22 Sep 08 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just to clarify, how this system works is equivalent to what the sub-class system was in FFXI? Thanks for the responses in advance.


Not really. Sub-class you could only use one other jobs skills, in this game you could have a main job with skills from 5 other classes equipped if you wanted. It is similar in respect to abilities being weaker when used on other classes, though.
#23 Sep 12 2010 at 3:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I finally got around to testing this.

Both my Conjurer and Thaumaturge were Rank 2, I had Physical Rank 5 with 24 Int and 38 Fire.

I fought Copper Coblyns and used Fire on them with both CON and THM.

Thaumaturge results:

The damage was around 60-70, or 73-74 if I used Blood Rite.

The recast was much higher.

I got Thaumaturgy skill points while using Fire, which surprised me.

Conjurer results:

The damage was around 90-120, and Blood Rite had negligible effects.

Conclusion:

Considering the Conjurer weapon has 5% more Magic Potency, it looks like a 30-40% decrease in damage.
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#24 Sep 12 2010 at 5:21 AM Rating: Good
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I leveled THM and CON at the same time and "Cure" hells for less on THM & "Sacrifice" heals for less on CON.
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#25 Oct 15 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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exactly dude thats what im looking to do haha that makeshift redmage might actually almost be as good minus the fact that in XI you could cast any spell you wanted didn't have to equip
#26 Oct 16 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I am not sure,
but it seems the absorb spells (if functional) would be quite useful for DoW.

Absorb-ACC would increase your acc and decrease target's acc at the same time which is really nice, and seems designed for DoW instead of DoM.
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#27 Oct 16 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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It's been mentioned in the Lodestone article on Battle Regimen that certain kinds of regimen "Maintains the effectiveness of class abilities when used by different classes".

So if you're a Pugilist or something that has a Conjurer spell as a cross-class ability, it'll be weaker when you use it alone, but if you use it in a battle regimen with another player casting the same class' skill it'll retain its full effectiveness.

I havent' tried it yet first-hand though so I'm not sure how much stronger or weaker it is.
#28 Oct 16 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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Once you get to rank 50 in each class you get abilities such as One With Nature as Conjurer which increase your affinity with that class.

Perhaps you could use said abilities in order to make any particular "sub-class" stronger, after you level it of course.
#29 Oct 16 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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I regularly use absorb acc and absorb attack on my glad while partying and it SEEMS to work more often than not. I haven't done any scientific testing with it really. This is with BASE magic stats and all my points in STR DEX and VIT. For me it seems worth it.
#30 Oct 16 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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chomama wrote:
Just to clarify, how this system works is equivalent to what the sub-class system was in FFXI? Thanks for the responses in advance.


The Job Skills system in 14 is more closely related to the Blue Mage Spell List than Sub-Jobs from 11.

11 BLU
You kill certain types of monsters to learn their abilities. You then select what abilities you have learned that you will use (depending on how much each ability costs and how many slot points you have available), until you decide to change them later.

14 All Jobs
You level certain jobs and learn their actions. You then select what actions you have learned that you will use (depending on how much each ability costs and how many slot points you have available), until you decide to change them later.
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#31 Oct 16 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Am I the only one concerned what this system will eventually mean?

That is, forget sub jobs. Leveling DRK to 37 so you can use Stun as a RDM will be nothing compared to this (or BLM to 49 for a more recent example). Here, assumedly, you'll have to take classes all the way to the cap, or close to it, to get their best abilities.

Those few people that had a 75 everything in XI.. That's what would be needed in XIV to fully take advantage of your one main class, which I think is unfortunate. If you try, it's a truly unhealthy amount of gameplay, and if you don't, you're missing out on some really helpful abilities.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 9:54pm by Coyohma
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#32 Oct 17 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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While a valid point, I suspect the top end skills will require too many AP to use a lot from a lot of different jobs, or maybe some of the highest end skills with be limited to their core job and be unusable on other jobs. It's hard to say though with no one at the cap, whatever that will ultimately be.
#33 Oct 17 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Kefkafreak wrote:
I'm just curious as to whether a "mixed" (a melee or tank using magic) build is viable with the right stats.


i.e. the Paladin archetype? Has anyone attempted this in solo and group play?
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#34 Oct 17 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

i.e. the Paladin archetype? Has anyone attempted this in solo and group play?


a friend of mine has. he has conj leveled to 10 and uses that along with his gladiator for some pretty pld-like play. basically a combination of regular glad skills, cure, radiance (rank 10 conj WS; regains mana based on dmg dealt) and second wind from pug allows him to keep going for a very long time, and gives him a lot of alternatives for grabbing hate.

its quite potent from what ive seen. he largely spends his points in vit, with a bit (10-20%) in mnd and another 20% or so split between dex and str.
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#35 Oct 17 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Gladiator with Stoneskin, cure, and shock spikes can take some oranges and reds that would be difficult or impossible to take with out. though the spikes mean you loose out on SP.

With out spikes, at rank twelve I could take on a yellow dodo with little difficulty, and they hit pretty hard. Cure was absolutely necessary.
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#36 Oct 17 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't forget these skills:

Quote:
Increases your affinity with gladiator-based actions by 10, up to a maximum of 100.


In Open Beta it was reported to boost cross-class conjurer spells by 20% (from 50 to 60% efficiency, roughly). Looks like there will be more of these as well, if they can go up to 100, with probably decreasing effect.

Also it was mentioned in the lodestone that battle regimens can remove the penalty when cross-class skill is paired with another cross-class skill. Of course the system is not effective right now but with changes it may become so.
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#37 Oct 18 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
Am I the only one concerned what this system will eventually mean?.... Here, assumedly, you'll have to take classes all the way to the cap, or close to it, to get their best abilities.


Ummm...yeah....I thought that was how video games usually worked...

I encourage you to watch the video on the fatigue system by FF Tactics. Very well done.

As a casual player, I expect to one day have a Lancer who is leveled up and can kick ****. I expect SE to balance the skills so that I can play competitively with just my LNC. However, I don't expect them to give me the variety of skills that are earned by players that have more time to play the game.

There is a difference between variety of skills and power of skills. Just because you have access to more skills does not automatically make them better. Just different skills that allow different play styles or approaches to the game.

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 1:06pm by NayliaMR
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