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Kill mobs slower = increased class xp?Follow

#1 Sep 07 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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With the way class rank xp works (chance of getting class xp everytime you hit the target), doesn't everybody want to kill mobs as slowly as possible every time? For instance, if you're a Gladiator don't you just want to spam your weakest skill (Light Slash) over and over again to maximize the number of times you have a chance of skilling up on a mob?

I mean it's the same as it was for weapon skillup parties in FF11 right? You have like 6 guys whacking away at a Robber Crab in Boyahda and ideally you want the mob to die really slowly so you can maximize the number of hits everybody can get in and minimize downtime searching/pulling a new mob. (which is why nobody does weapon skills in skillup parties).

I am wrong in this? Cuz if I'm not, this whole system seems completely retarded.
#2 Sep 07 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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That is exactly right.. Apparently you get a random chance to get skill exp per hit.. so if you hit the mobs more you get more skill exp .. Then again you have to watch mana and health.. and taking ages to kill a mob do increase downtime.. in the long run..

Btw the current exp system is retarded.. This is not freakin cabal online.. why the **** is exp based on hits.. and no the dam difficulty of the mob..
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#3 Sep 07 2010 at 10:22 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Btw the current exp system is retarded.. This is not freakin cabal online.. why the **** is exp based on hits.. and no the dam difficulty of the mob..


If you think about it, if you're fighting a higher level mob you're gonna land more hits on it before it dies and therefore more xp...although I don't think its this simple, i think there is some modifier in there depending on mob level and i also think that using weapon skills gains you more xp than "light strike"...atleast that's what i've noticed.
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#4 Sep 07 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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If it is like the closed beta was, the amount of points you get is also based on damage dealt. This means that if you kill a monster with weak attacks, you'll get less skill points per skillup, but more chances to get the smaller skills.

I'm unsure if either way yields more overall or if they average to be more or less the same.
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#5 Sep 07 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:

Btw the current exp system is retarded.. This is not freakin cabal online.. why the **** is exp based on hits.. and no the dam difficulty of the mob..


If you think about it, if you're fighting a higher level mob you're gonna land more hits on it before it dies and therefore more xp...although I don't think its this simple, i think there is some modifier in there depending on mob level and i also think that using weapon skills gains you more xp than "light strike"...atleast that's what i've noticed.


It does seem that mobs closer to your own level give better xp. For example hitting a mob that shows as green gives me about 70+ skill most of the time, while hitting a mob that has been blue for 4 levels only gives around 30 to 50 skill.
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#6 Sep 07 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure if you fight a higher mob you can land more hits cuz it has more HP. But even you still want to sneak in as many hits as you can and to do this you spam the lowest-damaging skills you have (this is all assuming you make sure not to die). I don't know about the weapon skills giving more xp though, I haven't noticed any difference.
#7 Sep 07 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is that it is not the difficulty of the mob.. I have experimented this with mobs of the same color rank and of the same type.. For example Green rank Lost ewes.. it dies from my conjurer in like 3 hits if I spam my aero, lightning, and fire... I normally get 500 exp.. and 56 skill exp.. then I buff up using stone skin.. then attack another similar if not the same ewe with weapon attack.. Spirit dart (?) .. till it dies.. and get like 500 exp.. and 200 skill exp...

Forget higher rank.. I can't even kill orange ranked mobs..
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#8 Sep 07 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't higher lvl mobs have better evasion so you'll hit it less anyway?
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#9 Sep 07 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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nick2412 wrote:
The problem is that it is not the difficulty of the mob.. I have experimented this with mobs of the same color rank and of the same type.. For example Green rank Lost ewes.. it dies from my conjurer in like 3 hits if I spam my aero, lightning, and fire... I normally get 500 exp.. and 56 skill exp.. then I buff up using stone skin.. then attack another similar if not the same ewe with weapon attack.. Spirit dart (?) .. till it dies.. and get like 500 exp.. and 200 skill exp...

Forget higher rank.. I can't even kill orange ranked mobs..


Gets really complicated with the mage jobs. Lately when I fight dodos I don't even nuke much...setup stoneskin & shockspikes then open with Burn and a quick guard with the shield. Then I melee so to speak, spirit darts and Radiance(weaponskill) as much as possible to maximize skillups, saving nukes for "oh **** moments", while trying to keep stoneskin up and curing...I have a lot of fun with how involved it is, but if I just nuked the **** out of 'em I probably wouldn't skillup as much...though I haven't tested that in a while because like you I slaughtered sheep and found spamming spirit dart did so much better so I've kept that same playing style...
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#10 Sep 07 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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my experiments on this seem to say that the amount of skill you get is based on the damage you deal, a higher damaging attack grants more skill, how skill gain correlates to monster level I haven't tested yet. High damaging attacks a chance of giving you a nice boost in skill..but of course you could also get none. Doing the lv 10 leves at lv 10, I 2-3 shot most enemies with my basic attacks which is lame as Ive done an entire leve and gotten only 150 skill...

Personally, I'm not too happy with the current system, because rank is your real level whereas physical is something that just goes up along and killing an enemy and saying "got unlucky, 0 advancement exp" is just lame ;(
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#11 Sep 08 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Silverwyrm
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Personally, I'm not too happy with the current system, because rank is your real level whereas physical is something that just goes up along and killing an enemy and saying "got unlucky, 0 advancement exp" is just lame ;(


i see it the other way around , physical is our real level and "classes" are just skills we learn. more or less like weapon skill in FFXI

like for ex.
lvl20 lalafell with conjour and thum skills levels but in the end i'll be a lvl20

that just my opinion on how i see the system(not fact);

i wonder how the Looking for group system ganna be lol




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#12 Sep 08 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the way the game sees it. For instance, the story-line quests you get from the cities are gotten at class ranks 0, 10, 20, and 30. You can have as high a physical level as you want but the game won't let you obtain the quest unless you have high class ranks.
#13 Sep 08 2010 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
Skill points gained appears to be a function (at least in part) of your rank compared to the rank of the mob you're fighting. If your rank is much higher, skill points are slow in coming. If their rank is much higher, hitting them is hard. When you're in the "sweet spot" (ranks fairly close to one another) it's not uncommon to see 200-300 skill points/fight in the 1-10 stretch. I'm not sure if SE tuned the acquisition of shield skill points differently than everything else, but I can say from experience that getting my first shield at rank 10 gladiator and trying to skill it up has been extraordinarily painful.

XP is similar in that the harder the mob, the more xp you get (assuming you can kill it). I get maybe 100xp for killing wharf rats with my gladiator (rank 12) but I get ~2-300xp for killing them with my marauder (rank 4).
#14 Sep 08 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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entlassen wrote:
Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the way the game sees it. For instance, the story-line quests you get from the cities are gotten at class ranks 0, 10, 20, and 30. You can have as high a physical level as you want but the game won't let you obtain the quest unless you have high class ranks.


"lvl20 lalafell needs to get his conjour skill to lvl20 before doing the quest"

still see it the same way lol , this a new system SE using. if we don't think outside the box we not ganna fully understan it.

just my view









Edited, Sep 8th 2010 2:31am by Ggrab
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#15 Sep 08 2010 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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my experiments on this seem to say that the amount of skill you get is based on the damage you deal, a higher damaging attack grants more skill, how skill gain correlates to monster level I haven't tested yet. High damaging attacks a chance of giving you a nice boost in skill..but of course you could also get none. Doing the lv 10 leves at lv 10, I 2-3 shot most enemies with my basic attacks which is lame as Ive done an entire leve and gotten only 150 skill...

Personally, I'm not too happy with the current system, because rank is your real level whereas physical is something that just goes up along and killing an enemy and saying "got unlucky, 0 advancement exp" is just lame ;(


It's this.

Quote:
i see it the other way around , physical is our real level and "classes" are just skills we learn. more or less like weapon skill in FFXI

like for ex.
lvl20 lalafell with conjour and thum skills levels but in the end i'll be a lvl20

that just my opinion on how i see the system(not fact);

i wonder how the Looking for group system ganna be lol


NOT this.


I would like to add that when your weapon starts to "break" and need repairs. You will do less damage (but healing stays the same for some reason) and in relation get less skill points on a hit that procs skillpoints. If you cast high damage nukes, you have about the same procate of skills and the amount of skills you get on a proc is bigger (because you have high damage nukes)

Edit: This information is based on facts. Which means I sat in a cave. Killing moles for a long period of time. Seeying my weapon go from 75% to 0% durabilty and painfully watching the result in lower damage and skill while getting my ranks.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 8:42am by RedGalka
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#16 Sep 08 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I think the more exp you gain throughout the fight, the less you get as a chunk at the end. Sometimes i get zero exp at the end but got a ton during. Then fighting the exact same mobs getting zero during and a big chunk at the end. It all works out to the same im pretty sure.
#17 Sep 08 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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The important question, and the one that I believe the topic creator is posing, is does the player benefit from prolonging the life a mob X.

Mob X has 100hp and has a set level.

If I hit it 100 times for 1 damage, how much skill do I get?

If I hit it 50 times for 2 damage, how much skill do I get?

If I hit it 25 times for 4 damage, how much skill do I get?

If I hit it 1 time for 100 damage, how much skill do I get?

If the exp earned favors one of these options, we'll see players gravitate toward that one.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 2:49am by AestiaMons
#18 Sep 08 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Decent
RedGalka wrote:

I would like to add that when your weapon starts to "break" and need repairs. You will do less damage (but healing stays the same for some reason) and in relation get less skill points on a hit that procs skillpoints. If you cast high damage nukes, you have about the same procate of skills and the amount of skills you get on a proc is bigger (because you have high damage nukes)

Edit: This information is based on facts. Which means I sat in a cave. Killing moles for a long period of time. Seeying my weapon go from 75% to 0% durabilty and painfully watching the result in lower damage and skill while getting my ranks.


It's not fact. You haven't isolated the variables.

There's no confirmed evidence that weapon durability is influencing attack damage right now. I've noticed that mob rank vs. player class rank makes the largest difference in terms of damage (I hit blue wharf rats for ~120-130/Light Slash, whereas green dodos only take ~40-50 damage from the same attack). I've hit those same wharf rats with weapon durability at 100% (I fixed my whacker stick myself) and < 25%. The durability made no difference, and since all of the testing I did was between class ranks 11 and 12, rank was (mostly) isolated from the equation.

I'm also not seeing any correlation between damage dealt and skill points earned. Again, it seems to be more to do with rank than damage. I get few if any skill points from lower level mobs (whimpy blues) regardless of how much I hit them for. And if I do get some skill points from the whimpy guys, it's always a smaller amount/hit than I would get from higher level mobs (which I would hit for less damage because they have more armor).
#19 Sep 08 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
AestiaMons wrote:
The important question, and the one that I believe the topic creator is posing, is does the player benefit from prolonging the life a mob X.

Mob X has 100hp and has a set level.

If I hit it 100 times for 1 damage, how much skill do I get?

If I hit it 50 times for 2 damage, how much skill do I get?

If I hit it 25 times for 4 damage, how much skill do I get?

If I hit it 1 time for 100 damage, how much skill do I get?

If the exp earned favors one of these options, we'll see players gravitate toward that one.


It's pretty hard to isolate things and do a test like that because we don't really have the spread of stats necessary to cut our damage by any significant amount. Most people are still using the Weathered weapons they got when they first made their character. It's hard to downgrade damage to test when you're already at rock bottom.

And since it would appear that class rank factors heavily into the mix, the reduction in skillups you'd see from picking a whimpy mob that isn't going to faceroll you to skill up on for ages would offset the gains from fighting tougher mobs that grant skillups more often.
#20 Sep 08 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

i see it the other way around , physical is our real level and "classes" are just skills we learn. more or less like weapon skill in FFXI

like for ex.
lvl20 lalafell with conjour and thum skills levels but in the end i'll be a lvl20

that just my opinion on how i see the system(not fact);

i wonder how the Looking for group system ganna be lol




except its all based on rank with physical being a bonus. If I switch from rank 20 to a rank 1 class, I go back to the first zone/camp regardless of my physical level. Ranks are true progression, and its random, which is annoying.
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#21 Sep 08 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Btw the current exp system is retarded.. This is not freakin cabal online.. why the **** is exp based on hits.. and no the dam difficulty of the mob..


This.
Just play a mage job in a group.
If you heal the other guys or use debuffs you're just stupid.
It will cost you all your EXP.
So much to cooperative party play.
#22 Sep 08 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
This.
Just play a mage job in a group.
If you heal the other guys or use debuffs you're just stupid.
It will cost you all your EXP.
So much to cooperative party play.


All skill increases divided and shared among party would remedy this. I'm healing the Pug that I'm partied with. He gets a 44 point skill increase. Game divides that to 22 point increase for each of us. (Not counting any possible bonus SE might include)

That is a fair system. Let the player decide if someone is not holding their own in a party, as we have been since MMOs began.
#23 Sep 08 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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Soezu wrote:
I think the more exp you gain throughout the fight, the less you get as a chunk at the end. Sometimes i get zero exp at the end but got a ton during. Then fighting the exact same mobs getting zero during and a big chunk at the end. It all works out to the same im pretty sure.


the gain at the end is just a sum of what you got from hits, you don't actually gain rank until the mob dies.
#24 Sep 08 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
RedGalka wrote:

I would like to add that when your weapon starts to "break" and need repairs. You will do less damage (but healing stays the same for some reason) and in relation get less skill points on a hit that procs skillpoints. If you cast high damage nukes, you have about the same procate of skills and the amount of skills you get on a proc is bigger (because you have high damage nukes)

Edit: This information is based on facts. Which means I sat in a cave. Killing moles for a long period of time. Seeying my weapon go from 75% to 0% durabilty and painfully watching the result in lower damage and skill while getting my ranks.


It's not fact. You haven't isolated the variables.

There's no confirmed evidence that weapon durability is influencing attack damage right now. I've noticed that mob rank vs. player class rank makes the largest difference in terms of damage (I hit blue wharf rats for ~120-130/Light Slash, whereas green dodos only take ~40-50 damage from the same attack). I've hit those same wharf rats with weapon durability at 100% (I fixed my whacker stick myself) and < 25%. The durability made no difference, and since all of the testing I did was between class ranks 11 and 12, rank was (mostly) isolated from the equation.

I'm also not seeing any correlation between damage dealt and skill points earned. Again, it seems to be more to do with rank than damage. I get few if any skill points from lower level mobs (whimpy blues) regardless of how much I hit them for. And if I do get some skill points from the whimpy guys, it's always a smaller amount/hit than I would get from higher level mobs (which I would hit for less damage because they have more armor).


Uhm when Phantom Dart drops from an average of 60 damage, to an average of 50 damage, to an average 40 damage, to an average of 30 damage and then even an average of 20 damage. All within the same physical level. Over a period of 2 ranks. Having a monster level range varying between brown and green ( but the damage averages not really being affected by either being a brown or a green mole) And the weapon level being slightly above your own class level:

How can it not be durabilty? What other variables do you see that I don't see.

Edit: And my damage problem was indeed fixed when I did a simple repair at the npc. And the skillpoints on a procrate always were below the damage on that procrate. When the damage per hit dropped to an average 20, the skillpoints dropped below 20 for me.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 10:13am by RedGalka
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#25 Sep 08 2010 at 3:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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i jus wondering abt time spend killing the mob slowly vs killing fast and move to next mob. Currently beta is abit crowd but there are location where mob are only 5~10sec apart. Kill 2 mob will give more physical xp and loots and top of .. its more fun killing things fast.
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#26 Sep 08 2010 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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Sleepymagi wrote:
i jus wondering abt time spend killing the mob slowly vs killing fast and move to next mob. Currently beta is abit crowd but there are location where mob are only 5~10sec apart. Kill 2 mob will give more physical xp and loots and top of .. its more fun killing things fast.


Yeah that even goes back to XI...most people ran to the dunes @10 and others tried to solo DCs & such which was slow, but I just slaughtered EPs quickly and racked up killer XP while also farming...quite efficient

That's a problem in some places so far in the beta...I've been near Camp Drybone lately and it gets pretty crowded sometimes, I go for the coblyns & thisteletail marmots when I can because they're so much easier than dodos, if there were more I'm sure repeatedly killing those would be the efficient way to go

For all I know there could be some hidden tally goin' on behind the scenes determining all this stuff...I just soloed a dodo and got 0 class exp, then killed a weaker thistletail marmot right after and got 200...

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 6:02am by TwistedOwl
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#27 Sep 08 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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Someone mentioned that there is a cap on how much skill you can get from a single enemy. I have seen the same myself, after a certain point you dont get any more skill until the mob dies.

In this case there would be no reason to maximize hits as long as you get to the skill cap.
#28 Sep 08 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
RedGalka wrote:
Uhm when Phantom Dart drops from an average of 60 damage, to an average of 50 damage, to an average 40 damage, to an average of 30 damage and then even an average of 20 damage. All within the same physical level. Over a period of 2 ranks. Having a monster level range varying between brown and green ( but the damage averages not really being affected by either being a brown or a green mole) And the weapon level being slightly above your own class level:

How can it not be durabilty? What other variables do you see that I don't see.

Edit: And my damage problem was indeed fixed when I did a simple repair at the npc. And the skillpoints on a procrate always were below the damage on that procrate. When the damage per hit dropped to an average 20, the skillpoints dropped below 20 for me.


What you're describing is a 66% reduction in damage over a span of time. I've never seen anything even close to that with my gladiator and I've run my weapon from 100% to 0% over the span of a couple of outtings. The reduction in skillpoints more than likely had to do with you gaining class ranks along the way, and not the damage you were doing. As I said, you get more skillups and more skill points/skillup fighting mobs closer to your class rank. As your rank pulls ahead of theirs, the frequency and size of skillups decreases.
#29 Sep 08 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I noticed that even after my weapon got 0% durabilty, damage still kept decreasing. Maybe an error by going into negative?
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#30 Sep 08 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This.
Just play a mage job in a group.
If you heal the other guys or use debuffs you're just stupid.
It will cost you all your EXP.
So much to cooperative party play.


Last party I was in was two gladiators, a thm (me) and a con.
With me and the con handling the healing, we were still able to get comparable exp to the rest of the party
Now, my biggest problem was that provoke didn't work the way we thought it would, so when I opened the fight with a poison, I was in a world of hurt, but if I waited for the first gld to set hate, then poison, and then dart, then we would each do one cure per battle (unless we were fighting dodos), we were skilling up perfectly fine.

The game appears to be designed around ending zerg nuking, and debuff kiting. Curing is so minimal in exp parties (since the auto heal is pretty rapid at the end of the fight), it doesn't affect your exp (1-2 ability uses a fight mean so little, unless the fight is fast, at which point there is no reason to debuff or cure).

Poison can be questionable because you are dealing dot which is reducing the fight time.
#31 Sep 08 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Some observations:

As mentioned, you never get a class rank 'chunk' at the end. If you don't see the skillup points, but know you got some in the fight, check your 'battle' tab. The chat is a bit laggy and misses things. Some folks in party might see what you got when you didn't. It's that bad.

Skill up points are definately based on level difference. If you want an easy check, go take out a level 4-5 conjurer. Go nuke the !@#!!! out of a dodo or three until you're dead. You won't get the xp for it because you won't kill it, but you'll get some huge numbers going by.

Now nuke a mole or three. There's a correlation there. I can't nail it down, but there's a definate correlation.
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#32 Sep 08 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I am going to try to stack up all VIT and DEX for more HP and accuracy and fight higher mobs, yeah this system is retarted
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#33 Sep 08 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
zhijwen wrote:
I am going to try to stack up all VIT and DEX for more HP and accuracy and fight higher mobs, yeah this system is retarted


People who stack vitality and agility (there is no dexterity) dexterity thinking that they're going to be able to skill up on harder mobs are in for a shock.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 9:38pm by Aurelius
#34 Sep 08 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
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There is no agi there is dex, i tried a green mob for a rank 6 with a rank 2 i got it down to like 20% left, if i stack more VIT i will survive the fight
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#35 Sep 08 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
zhijwen wrote:
There is no agi there is dex, i tried a green mob for a rank 6 with a rank 2 i got it down to like 20% left, if i stack more VIT i will survive the fight


No you won't. Vitality is HP, and it's not a lot/point. And every point you're putting into vitality is a point you can't put somewhere else...like strength. Meaning that you're sacrificing damage for more HP and when you're talking on the scale you're referring to, 10 or 20 HP is going to translate to one extra hit you can take. And how many extra hits are you going to have to land to make up for the reduced damage on account of sacrificing the strength? It's not a straight linear consideration. If you're stacking 1 or 2 stats, you're sacrificing the others. You have to think big picture. It's the standard MMO dilemma...high survivability almost always comes at the expense of low damage output. You can live longer, but it takes longer to kill things which tends to make things balance out.
#36 Sep 08 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I just tried it and came back here, rank 2 more then 800 HP i was killing red mobs, skills gained wasn't much difference, but its better then killing those low level mobs, for some reason i killed about 1o low level mobs earlier got a max of about 110 and couple 0s, who knows this still betta, hope they make it better in release version
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#37 Sep 08 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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You can live longer, but it takes longer to kill things which tends to make things balance out.


This is the whole point of the thread, that taking longer to kill things might actually be good! I'm not talking about killing NMs or bosses (where you obviously want to kill something ASAP), I'm talking about skill level grinding.

So far it seems like the following factors might be calculated into the skill xp earned formula:
GUARANTEED TO MAXIMIZE SKILL:
1) Maximize # of hits: more hits = more skill

THEORETICAL (BUT LIKELY) FACTORS THAT MIGHT INCREASE SKILL:
2) Damage dealt: higher damage = more skill
3) Weapon durability: higher durability = more skill; though I personally think that this is really just #2 in disguise, as higher weapon durability = more damage dealt
4) Relative ranks between you and mob: optimal rank = more skill


From what I've seen and from what people have posted, #1 is the most dominant factor. Ranks matter a lot, but at the end of the day the only way to skillup is to hit stuff, and thus you ALWAYS want to be hitting as much as possible. This, to me, indicates, that long, drawn-out battles are preferred! (unless of course you have like 50 uncontested mobs sitting next to you ready for slaughter, in which case the downtime of finding a new mob to kill is near-zero, but one can clearly see from the overcrowded zones that this scenario is a pipedream)

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 1:36am by entlassen
#38 Sep 08 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
entlassen wrote:
Quote:
You can live longer, but it takes longer to kill things which tends to make things balance out.


This is the whole point of the thread, that taking longer to kill things might actually be good! I'm not talking about killing NMs or bosses (where you obviously want to kill something ASAP), I'm talking about skill level grinding.

So far it seems like the following factors might be calculated into the skill xp earned formula:
GUARANTEED TO MAXIMIZE SKILL:
1) Maximize # of hits: more hits = more skill

THEORETICAL (BUT LIKELY) FACTORS THAT MIGHT INCREASE SKILL:
2) Damage dealt: higher damage = more skill
3) Weapon durability: higher durability = more skill; though I personally think that this is really just #2 in disguise, as higher weapon durability = more damage dealt
4) Relative ranks between you and mob: optimal rank = more skill


From what I've seen and from what people have posted, #1 is the most dominant factor. Ranks matter a lot, but at the end of the day the only way to skillup is to hit stuff, and thus you ALWAYS want to be hitting as much as possible. This, to me, indicates, that long, drawn-out battles are preferred! (unless of course you have like 50 uncontested mobs sitting next to you ready for slaughter, in which case the downtime of finding a new mob to kill is near-zero, but one can clearly see from the overcrowded zones that this scenario is a pipedream)


All I'm really trying to do is discourage people as stating things as fact when there hasn't been nearly enough testing done to reach that conclusion. Some people are suggesting that the more damage you deal, the more skill points you get. I've seen otherwise. I can blast the snot out of a wharf rat for almost 300 damage with a Phalanx and if I'm lucky enough to get any skill points at all, it might be 20-50 points. Compare that to when my character was brand spanking new, I was hitting mobs for maybe 25-30 damage/hit, and getting 90+ skill points (and getting them fairly frequently.)

There's a thread here where someone tested the impact of durability on performance and their conclusion was that currently, durability has zero impact on performance. Even RedGalka admits that his damage continued to decrease even after his weapon durability reached 0. So how are we concluding as "likely" (much less fact) that things are the way we're saying they are with such certainty? The answer is that we can't. Not yet. Not until official service starts and those with an empirical theorycrafting mindset can sit down and do some real testing.
#39 Sep 09 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I was just trying to get the thread back on track. You started talking about some "MMO dilemma" of stat distribution but the context of what you're saying is out of scope for the purposes of this thread topic; we're not talking about standard balance, we're talking about optimizing for the FF14 skillup system. And since you yourself say that nobody can know for sure until lots of empirical testing is done, you cannot make a claim such as "people who stack vitality and dexterity...are in for a shock." Because for all we know, stacking stats like that might actually be a good strategy to maximize skillups, if my theory of "long battles = kill mobs slower = more hits = more skill (as long as you don't die)" is true.



Edited, Sep 9th 2010 2:06am by entlassen
#40 Sep 09 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
entlassen wrote:
I was just trying to get the thread back on track. You started talking about some "MMO dilemma" of stat distribution but the context of what you're saying is out of scope for the purposes of this thread topic. We're not talking about standard balance, we're talking about optimizing for the FF14 skillup system. And since you yourself say that nobody can know for sure until lots of empirical testing is done, you cannot make a claim such as "people who stack vitality and agility...are in for a shock." Because for all we know, stacking stats like that might actually be the correct strategy to maximize skillups, if the theory of "long battles = kill mobs slower = more hits = more skill" is true.



My point is that someone is saying that stacking vit for survivability and dex for a higher hit rate making all that much of a difference is not something that can be tested right now because the range of stats we have to play with isn't all that great. By all appearances right now, the biggest influence on both the frequency and the size of skillups is your current class rank vs. the rank of the mobs you are fighting. And as I said, it's not a linear conversion. What you're wanting to test...reducing damage to produce more hits without killing the mob to see if it produces better skillups...can't be reliably tested until people start pushing the level cap when

a) they have a greater range of stats to manipulate
b) they can isolate variables like class rank over extended testing periods
c) they can downgrade weapons substantially to reduce damage substantially

Until then, it's all guess work. And my point of challenging the idea of stacking vit and dex for best skillups was because of the way it was originally brought forward...that it was a stupid system because a lame mechanic produced the best results. If you want to gimp yourself to expedite your way through the game, fill your boots. It's not like allocating your stats all wonky like is going to get you from rank 1 to the cap in an afternoon, so you're either going to be spending an awful lot of time waiting on reallocation timers or you're going to be a liability in groups unless you limit yourself to people who are set up just like you. If all you want to do is solo gimp so you can cruise through the ranks as fast as possible, I'm not going to say mean things about you but if you then turn around and say the method is stupid, I might.

The level of testing people are employing right now is amateurish, which is fine. Not everyone is required to be balls deep in the theorycrafting to make a contribution, but they need to be careful about what they state as fact. You're inquiring about testing that can't be done right now. I'm telling you why it can't be done right now. Everyone throwing these "facts" around confuses the issue, and then everyone coming along reading these "facts" continues to confuse the issue when the conversation comes up again and again over the coming months and it's always punctuated by, "I read somewhere that so and so said fighting with an orange on your head prevented poison...was that untrue?"

It's about veracity of information and if it's speculative, state it as speculative. If it's a test that requires conditions to be met in order to be valid, people ought not be stating their conclusions as fact until they can satisfy those conditions. That's theorycrafting 101 in a nutshell.
#41 Sep 09 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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not like you can say that str actually has significant effects on your damage either. from my experience, it has all of 0 effect on my damage, class rank has the biggest effect. vit clearly effects HP and significantly, 8 points gets you about 200 hp. dex "seems" to effect accuracy, but it's about as subjective as str.
#42 Sep 09 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My point is that someone is saying that stacking vit for survivability and dex for a higher hit rate making all that much of a difference is not something that can be tested right now because the range of stats we have to play with isn't all that great. By all appearances right now, the biggest influence on both the frequency and the size of skillups is your current class rank vs. the rank of the mobs you are fighting. And as I said, it's not a linear conversion. What you're wanting to test...reducing damage to produce more hits without killing the mob to see if it produces better skillups...can't be reliably tested until people start pushing the level cap when

a) they have a greater range of stats to manipulate
b) they can isolate variables like class rank over extended testing periods
c) they can downgrade weapons substantially to reduce damage substantially

Until then, it's all guess work. And my point of challenging the idea of stacking vit and dex for best skillups was because of the way it was originally brought forward...that it was a stupid system because a lame mechanic produced the best results. If you want to gimp yourself to expedite your way through the game, fill your boots. It's not like allocating your stats all wonky like is going to get you from rank 1 to the cap in an afternoon, so you're either going to be spending an awful lot of time waiting on reallocation timers or you're going to be a liability in groups unless you limit yourself to people who are set up just like you. If all you want to do is solo gimp so you can cruise through the ranks as fast as possible, I'm not going to say mean things about you but if you then turn around and say the method is stupid, I might.

The level of testing people are employing right now is amateurish, which is fine. Not everyone is required to be balls deep in the theorycrafting to make a contribution, but they need to be careful about what they state as fact. You're inquiring about testing that can't be done right now. I'm telling you why it can't be done right now. Everyone throwing these "facts" around confuses the issue, and then everyone coming along reading these "facts" continues to confuse the issue when the conversation comes up again and again over the coming months and it's always punctuated by, "I read somewhere that so and so said fighting with an orange on your head prevented poison...was that untrue?"

It's about veracity of information and if it's speculative, state it as speculative. If it's a test that requires conditions to be met in order to be valid, people ought not be stating their conclusions as fact until they can satisfy those conditions. That's theorycrafting 101 in a nutshell.


Well, you shot down a guy who said "I am going to try X". On one hand you're telling people to gather data, but on the other you're discouraging people who they say they're going to try something out. I'm not saying you're a hypocrite, but if a guy wants to test, let him test! The more data, the better. It's not like he's making an actual claim that VIT/DEX stacking is the definitive optimization.

If the system really is like FF11's weapon skill parties, then it's only fitting to make "wonky" builds for a wonky system. If you were a Red Mage wanting to skillup your sword and were invited to a Boyahda weapon skillup party, you were probably going to bring your sniper rings, peacock charm, and other +accuracy gear. Nobody would accuse you of "gimping yourself to expedite your way through the game", because that's just the best way to skillup in FF11, and everybody knows it. If the system is the same as in FF14, then expect people to go for similarly wonky builds. The big difference between FF11 and FF14 is that in this game, weapon skillup parties ARE xp parties, so wonky builds might just end up being the standard!

Also, the topic title has a question mark at the end of it, so the whole context of the thread is that of speculation. :D


Edited, Sep 9th 2010 3:13am by entlassen
#43 Sep 09 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Decent
moffatt wrote:
not like you can say that str actually has significant effects on your damage either. from my experience, it has all of 0 effect on my damage, class rank has the biggest effect. vit clearly effects HP and significantly, 8 points gets you about 200 hp. dex "seems" to effect accuracy, but it's about as subjective as str.


And 200HP vs. a mob that hits for around 50 HP a shot extends the duration of the fight by what? 20 seconds? See what I mean? Not enough for proper testing. We're not talking about testing over 2 fights with this setup and 2 fights with that setup and guessing at averages and then trying to pass off our "findings" as fact. SE is too cryptic in their systems designs for that. I focus on STR, VIT, and DEX with my gladiator (with a passing nod to mind and piety as part of an experiment later on down the line). Right now I don't see a huge jump in damage from one rank to the next because it costs me two skill points to increase my strength by one. At lower levels when I could spend the same points and get 2 Str (which also scaled more substantially at the time) the difference was most definitely noticeable.

Small sample sizes and small variances produce questionable outcomes. That's just how it works. I'm not seeing anyone isolating the proper variables and/or testing for an appropriate length of time to be declaring anything as fact, and that's my whole issue. Guess what you want, speculate what you want, but don't label it fact.
#44 Oct 07 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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For everybody stating it is purely damage based, your wrong. I went out and killed some goats with my gladiator friend and did nothing but cure him the whole fight to see if i'd still get xp. I actually got more xp for only curing him then I ever got helping him kill it. It was mana intensive though and long term not going to help much until they provide more ways to regain mana. If you did let him take some more hits for curing sake, and still smacked the mob some for radience sake to keep mana long enough to use tranq. That would make a nice balance. I'd do it myself but my modem is jaked up right now and makes ff pretty **** hard to play.
#45 Oct 07 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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Off-topic: If you're depleting your MP too fast on the goats, you're doing something wrong. In a party of 3 our healers never went out of MP even nuking + healing on yellow/orange mob (to the party of course, individually it will be a big red).

On-topic: Like I've said a hundred times: There's an SP cap per kill, prolong the fight at your own expense, it will not get you more if you have reached the SP cap. And I think for damage dealing, SP gained will be based on damage to a certain extend, for healing/buffing/debuff it would be MP/TP usage that determine the SP gained, with level of the monster comparable to the level of the party/individual also effect the SP gained.
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