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Why did they rename surpluss skill?Follow

#1 Sep 08 2010 at 1:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Its now "Bonus" skill.
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#2 Sep 08 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Is it? Have you reached the Surplus range in the open beta now?
#3 Sep 08 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah i hit it tonight on lancer at lancer level 16.
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#4 Sep 08 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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What kind of message do you get?
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#5 Sep 08 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
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you get something like "marauder class bonus level 1"
i'm already at bonus level 2.
at one i was getting like 10 bonus axe sill per kill. now its 20ish

i'm marauder 17 btw
#6 Sep 08 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
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Azurymber wrote:
you get something like "marauder class bonus level 1"
i'm already at bonus level 2.
at one i was getting like 10 bonus axe sill per kill. now its 20ish

i'm marauder 17 btw
Excuse me if I sound totally lost, but I am, I'm getting this wrong?, are you getting more skill instead of less???

It means that surplus now encourages grinding instead of banning it?

Ken
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#7 Sep 08 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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So basically you won't get anymore Physical Experience per kill, but you get a bonus towards your Class skill whenever something dies? That's actually pretty cool. Spread the word. I kind of like it. Thanks for the information. It really leads me to believe that Physical levels might have a big role to some degree. Guess we will have to wait and see why they did this.

What happens when you switch Class and then try to kill stuff?

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 4:16am by Excenmille
#8 Sep 08 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Good
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kenage wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
you get something like "marauder class bonus level 1"
i'm already at bonus level 2.
at one i was getting like 10 bonus axe sill per kill. now its 20ish

i'm marauder 17 btw
Excuse me if I sound totally lost, but I am, I'm getting this wrong?, are you getting more skill instead of less???

It means that surplus now encourages grinding instead of banning it?

Ken


no, they just called it bonus so people woulden't complain LOL. I think the bonus is like a % of the main, you don't actually get it. Maybe it will be worth something in the future. But theres no way to check how much you have. Its basically a surplus exp. But they rank it now i guess, like at rank 1 you only get a bit of surplus exp, at rank 2 you get more, etc. So im guessing if you werent under the bonus system that 10 or 20 bonus would go to your class level.
#9 Sep 08 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
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Azurymber wrote:
kenage wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
you get something like "marauder class bonus level 1"
i'm already at bonus level 2.
at one i was getting like 10 bonus axe sill per kill. now its 20ish

i'm marauder 17 btw
Excuse me if I sound totally lost, but I am, I'm getting this wrong?, are you getting more skill instead of less???

It means that surplus now encourages grinding instead of banning it?

Ken


no, they just called it bonus so people woulden't complain LOL. I think the bonus is like a % of the main, you don't actually get it. Maybe it will be worth something in the future. But theres no way to check how much you have. Its basically a surplus exp. But they rank it now i guess, like at rank 1 you only get a bit of surplus exp, at rank 2 you get more, etc. So im guessing if you werent under the bonus system that 10 or 20 bonus would go to your class level.
Thanks for the explanation, I understood now.

Ken
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#10 Sep 08 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Disregard, by the time I pressed Post this was unecessary.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 8:26am by Hugus
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#11 Sep 08 2010 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Its now "Bonus" skill.
Trick people into thinking that the surplus system is gone so they won't complain about it?
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#12 Sep 08 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Wait i dont understand... How is getting more a bad thing?

Quote:

no, they just called it bonus so people woulden't complain LOL. I think the bonus is like a % of the main, you don't actually get it. Maybe it will be worth something in the future. But theres no way to check how much you have. Its basically a surplus exp. But they rank it now i guess, like at rank 1 you only get a bit of surplus exp, at rank 2 you get more, etc. So im guessing if you werent under the bonus system that 10 or 20 bonus would go to your class level.


Maybe I'm missing something, but after reading this 4 times I still don't understand WTF he's saying.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:10am by RattyBatty
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#13 Sep 08 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Default
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RattyBatty wrote:
Wait i dont understand... How is getting more a bad thing?

Quote:

no, they just called it bonus so people woulden't complain LOL. I think the bonus is like a % of the main, you don't actually get it. Maybe it will be worth something in the future. But theres no way to check how much you have. Its basically a surplus exp. But they rank it now i guess, like at rank 1 you only get a bit of surplus exp, at rank 2 you get more, etc. So im guessing if you werent under the bonus system that 10 or 20 bonus would go to your class level.


Maybe I'm missing something, but after reading this 4 times I still don't understand WTF he's saying.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:10am by RattyBatty


Me either :/
#14 Sep 08 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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runtheplacered wrote:
RattyBatty wrote:
Wait i dont understand... How is getting more a bad thing?

Quote:

no, they just called it bonus so people woulden't complain LOL. I think the bonus is like a % of the main, you don't actually get it. Maybe it will be worth something in the future. But theres no way to check how much you have. Its basically a surplus exp. But they rank it now i guess, like at rank 1 you only get a bit of surplus exp, at rank 2 you get more, etc. So im guessing if you werent under the bonus system that 10 or 20 bonus would go to your class level.


Maybe I'm missing something, but after reading this 4 times I still don't understand WTF he's saying.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:10am by RattyBatty


Me either :/
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#15 Sep 08 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
It almost seems to me as if they realized that such a controversial system in an open beta could do a great deal of harm to their early sales so they've started fiddling with things to offset the impact. Damage control, if you will. I've only seen bits and pieces about the whole surplus thing and even after reading Komoto's explanation of it I'm still not 100% certain what they're trying to accomplish or how.
#16 Sep 08 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Ok let's take it 1 sentence at a time

Quote:
no, they just called it bonus so people woulden't complain LOL.

Ok go on, tell me how it works.

Quote:
I think the bonus is like a % of the main, you don't actually get it.

A % of the 'main'? Main what... And he did actually get something, extra axe skill.

Quote:
Maybe it will be worth something in the future.

But he's getting something now...

Quote:
But theres no way to check how much you have.

How much what, Exp? Skill? You can see both in the menu!

Quote:
Its basically a surplus exp. But they rank it now i guess, like at rank 1 you only get a bit of surplus exp, at rank 2 you get more, etc.

Sooo he IS getting extra 'class exp' on Axe, and this is bad how?

Quote:
So im guessing if you werent under the bonus system that 10 or 20 bonus would go to your class level.

But it IS going to his class level. Axe skill = level up axe class!!

Again I ask WTF is this guy saying... Can someone explain what's going on and make sense?


Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:29am by RattyBatty
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#17 Sep 08 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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From what I understand (haven't encountered this yet myself) once you reach a certain amount of rank/exp points in a period of time (a week, I believe), the surplus (bonus now) system kicks in.

The way it's justified is that your character has started to become too tired to gain more experience for that period of time. So as you continue to grind past the "Bonus Threshold", you will get less and less usable experience, and more "Bonus" experience. This system resets every week, so you go back to getting full experience eventually.

It looks to me like the only change so far is that they changed "Surplus" to "Bonus." I have no idea why, unless it's to trick people into thinking it's not really limiting their ability to grow.
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#18 Sep 08 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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What confusing me is the OP is talking about getting MORE axe skill. MORE. If this is the surplus system, what's bad about it?
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#19 Sep 08 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Here's a quick example of how it works (bonus is just another word for surplus!) from what people have gathered

You kill a monster that normally nets you 300 EXP to your next JOB rank.
At "Bonus Rank 1" you will lose, say 10% of your exp. The system notifies you that you gain 300 EXP (30 Bonus/Surplus)
What this means is you gained 300 EXP, but 30 of it was a Bonus/Surplus and unusable -- so only 270 EXP goes to your job. This 30 Bonus EXP goes to some hidden pool, lets call it the Bonus EXP Pool.
You keep grinding at this Bonus Rank 1. After your Bonus EXP Pool reaches a certain point, you go up to Bonus Rank 2. Now the penalty is 20%!
You kill a mob now and you gain 300 EXP (60 Bonus) meaning that 60 exp was wasted. 240 EXP goes to your job, and 60 goes to your Bonus EXP Pool.

The Bonus EXP Pool is used for nothing but determining the penalty to your job exp.
Each job has their own surplus pool that resets after each week
Physical rank has no bonus/surplus system.

Whenever you see the word "bonus" just change it in your mind to "surplus"

I'm guessing the idea for changing it was some PR dude that thought they meant the same literal thing.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:37am by hints
#20 Sep 08 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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He's not getting more axe skill, he's getting less because a percentage of it is going to Bonus axe skill instead of actual axe skill. But the reason they renamed it is because they are planning on making it useful for something... I'm not sure if it can be used for anything at this point though.
#21 Sep 08 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
Err...wait...just to be sure I understand, if I bonus skill points 30 for 20 in LL, does that mean 40 skill points bonus is 70 in Ul'dah?

Huzzah! We've figured it out!
#22 Sep 08 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Considering all the rage in this forum like, a week ago? I'm surprised everyone isn't aware of how the system is working. Let me try to explain what Azurymber couldn't.

Up at SE headquarters, they wanted to create a different way to regulate how fast people level up in this game, so they created the surplus system.

To start with, the developers set a baseline for what they consider to be a fair amount of experience points a player can make in an hour, let's say 2,000 exp, and assumed 8 hours of play time per week, which in my example is 16,000 exp.

So Johnny is on his Gladiator living life to the fullest, leveling up and having fun. However, if in less than a week's time (I'll get to this time frame again later) Johnny gains 16,000 exp, after that point he's going to notice that he's accumulating surplus experience. What Johnny may not know, however, is that a percentage of the experience he was gaining is now going toward this surplus experience.

"Surplus? I wonder what that is, oh well..."

Johnny pays it no mind and continues on in his gameplay. Now, I don't know exactly how fast it declines, but if Johnny continues to keep playing, his experience again will eventually become 0 and all the experience points he "would have" gotten are going to surplus experience. At this point Johnny has hit a proverbial brick wall where he has a few options.

1.) Change to another job, as this restriction of experience is specific to jobs, so he has to wait if he wants to get more experience on gladiator again.
2.) Go exploring, as not being in combat is supposed to gradually reset this bonu- i mean penalt- I mean surplus experience.
3.) Log off the game and wait until a week has passed since he began leveling. Assuming the limit has not reset itself from not engaging in combat with the job that is currently restricted, the limit resets one week after you begain gaining experience with the job in question.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Although your experience is going toward "surplus" now called bonus apparently since I haven't seen it in open beta, the developers currently have no intended use for it since they don't want to give players something they'd want to spend the points on, which defeats the purpose of the penalty / surplus / bonus / fatigue system.

Hope that helps some.

Edit: Informative posts filled in while I was typing.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:41am by ThePacster
#23 Sep 08 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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ThePacster wrote:
the developers currently have no intended use for it since they don't want to give players something they'd want to spend the points on, which defeats the purpose of the penalty / surplus / bonus / fatigue system.


Thanks for the clear cut explanation. But I'm wondering.. do we actually know for a fact that the devs have no intended use for the surpl.. err.. bonus xp, or could it just be that it's open beta and whatever the use is won't actually exist until retail?
#24 Sep 08 2010 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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Ok so the main confusion is in the way they don't show you the subtracted skill gain, but somehow decided to show it like this

This is how much you could have (This is how much we're taking away)

I see, and we're sure this is still taking it away instead of adding it? Has anyone recently checked how much was added to their TNL after that notice? Maybe it's called bonus because they actually now changed it to be a bonus instead?


Edited, Sep 8th 2010 12:00pm by RattyBatty
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#25 Sep 08 2010 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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this is all very strange, hope they clear it up before launch
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#26 Sep 08 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a theory on this surplus EXP pool. I have not yet been able to play the OB due to work but if someone know is this doesn't work please let me know. So if the surplus exp is being pooled wouldn't it not make sense that if you switched jobs that whatever exp is pooled gets used as bonuses on the switched job. So say that you have 500 exp pooled. When you are leveling a new job you will get a bonus of exp on top of your regular exp, as long as the pool lasts (kinda of like WoWs log out bonuses if you were in a town). Now I don't know if this is how SE applied the surplus exp, but I can tell you one thing this is how I would have done it.
#27 Sep 08 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
runtheplacered wrote:
RattyBatty wrote:
Wait i dont understand... How is getting more a bad thing?

Quote:

no, they just called it bonus so people woulden't complain LOL. I think the bonus is like a % of the main, you don't actually get it. Maybe it will be worth something in the future. But theres no way to check how much you have. Its basically a surplus exp. But they rank it now i guess, like at rank 1 you only get a bit of surplus exp, at rank 2 you get more, etc. So im guessing if you werent under the bonus system that 10 or 20 bonus would go to your class level.


Maybe I'm missing something, but after reading this 4 times I still don't understand WTF he's saying.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 11:10am by RattyBatty


Me either :/
The kids, they listen to the rap music, and it gives them the brain damage.

This is why using proper grammar and spelling and generally not sounding like an 11 year old special ed. student goes a long way on a forum.


it was like 4am and i haven't slept in days. And it makes sense..... if you read it carefully and know what surplus exp is. But here is a translation of my horrible morning grammar (btw i'm 22 and a university grad, not a kid)

It seems that:
1. they changed the name of surplus skill to "bonus skill"
2. bonus skill comes in "ranks". So you start at rank 1, eventually get to rank 2, than rank 3, etc.
3. At rank one, a percentage of your normal axe skill gets converted to bonus skill and you lose it. For example if you normally get 100axe skill you might get 90 axe skill and 10 bonus. However, I believe that if it says you got 30 axe skill 3 times, it will show you as getting 90 axe skill and 10 bonus (meaning that those 10 bonus were lost when each axe skill was displayed. ex. you should have got 33ish axe skill each time instead of 30. Or meaning that you are actually getting a bonus.)
I Might be wrong about that and it might just take 10 axe skill off the 100 (ex. you got 30, 30, and 40 axe skills during the fight and at the end it shows 90 + 10 bonus instead of 100)
4. As your bonus rank increases (ex. marauder bonus skill rank 2), you get more bonus skill points each kill relative to the amount of normal skill points you got.

This is what it seems like at least.

edit for the guy who quoted little parts:
The bonus is a % of the normal skill your supposed to get. So if your supposed to get 100 skill the bonus would take off 10% from it and you would only get 90 skill.
The bonus does -not- go to your actual skill. It is stored, but you can't view the bonus skill you have accumulated anywhere.
You are not gaining more skill points, you are gaining less.



Edited, Sep 8th 2010 12:12pm by Azurymber
#28 Sep 08 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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crazyorc wrote:
I have a theory on this surplus EXP pool. I have not yet been able to play the OB due to work but if someone know is this doesn't work please let me know. So if the surplus exp is being pooled wouldn't it not make sense that if you switched jobs that whatever exp is pooled gets used as bonuses on the switched job. So say that you have 500 exp pooled. When you are leveling a new job you will get a bonus of exp on top of your regular exp, as long as the pool lasts (kinda of like WoWs log out bonuses if you were in a town). Now I don't know if this is how SE applied the surplus exp, but I can tell you one thing this is how I would have done it.


No, because SE's specifically stated that they don't want this to be something you want to have.

The change in wording from "surplus" to "bonus" is exactly the change here, that's the only difference. It's no more a bonus now than it was a surplus then. The correct word is "fatigue" because this is experience you're NOT getting and never will.
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#29 Sep 08 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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runtheplacered wrote:
ThePacster wrote:
the developers currently have no intended use for it since they don't want to give players something they'd want to spend the points on, which defeats the purpose of the penalty / surplus / bonus / fatigue system.

Thanks for the clear cut explanation. But I'm wondering.. do we actually know for a fact that the devs have no intended use for the surpl.. err.. bonus xp, or could it just be that it's open beta and whatever the use is won't actually exist until retail?


From an interview
Nobuaki Komoto wrote:
Surplus points currently have no use. However, there are opinions saying preparing some kind of reward would be good, but that's just giving people something else to strive for, which misses the whole point of this system. We want to take our time and thoroughly investigate this issue.


I wouldn't get my hopes up on surplus being useful.
#30 Sep 08 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
No, because SE's specifically stated that they don't want this to be something you want to have.

The change in wording from "surplus" to "bonus" is exactly the change here, that's the only difference. It's no more a bonus now than it was a surplus then. The correct word is "fatigue" because this is experience you're NOT getting and never will


Well this is very frustrating. Really makes me wonder what they are thinking. I know they want us to play more than one class but really they are going about this the wrong way. It's like training a dog, rewarding it with treats when it does something right works a lot better than punishing it for doing something wrong. Eventually the dog learns that hey I get a yummy treat when I do this, so maybe I should always do that. But instead is seems SE is rolling up the newspaper and hitting us on the nose saying "Bad player, NO you can't play that class any more, and no you don't get any more exp, what a bad bad player now shoo and come back in a week when you are behaving better". Wouldn't it make sense to instead reward us by giving us an exp boost that we get from "surplus" aka fatigue, when we are playing the game the way they intended. Players howling in the kennel "SE we want our treat we did what you wanted us to do, why are you punishing us."

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 12:18pm by crazyorc
#31 Sep 08 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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crazyorc wrote:
Quote:
No, because SE's specifically stated that they don't want this to be something you want to have.

The change in wording from "surplus" to "bonus" is exactly the change here, that's the only difference. It's no more a bonus now than it was a surplus then. The correct word is "fatigue" because this is experience you're NOT getting and never will


Well this is very frustrating. Really makes me wonder what they are thinking. I know they want us to play more than one class but really they are going about this the wrong way. It's like training a dog, rewarding it with treats when it does something right works a lot better than punishing it for doing something wrong. Eventually the dog learns that hey I get a yummy treat when I do this, so maybe I should always do that. But instead is seems SE is rolling up the newspaper and hitting us on the nose saying "Bad player, NO you can't play that class any more, and no you don't get any more exp, what a bad bad player now shoo and come back in a week when you are behaving better". Wouldn't it make sense to instead reward us by giving us an exp boost that we get from "surplus" aka fatigue, when we are playing the game the way they intended. Players howling in the kennel "SE we want our treat we did what you wanted us to do, why are you punishing us."

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 12:18pm by crazyorc


Yes it would make more sense.

I suppose the responsible thing to do here is to point out that this topic has been discussed to death.

However, I suppose it's equally important for SE to realize that this isn't going away, and we're not stupid enough to not put 2 and 2 together and figure out that all they did was change the word associated with the system.
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