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Old trailer quality misleading?Follow

#1 Sep 09 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I never really watched the trailers for FFXIV, and just a few minutes ago i got the random urge to check them out in HD...

Now the game is looking really nice, yes, but I can't help but notice a pretty huge difference in the overall lighting/shading quality in a lot of the shots in this trailer. From little details like the nice water reflection when seeing the ship from above (which in my behchmark program, that doesn't happen) to more obvious differences like the superb lighting and ambience in that dark bar environment (1:00). Not to mention the characters seem to have some sort of subsurface effect going on their skin.... That scene with the malboro (1:50) also seems way above the quality from ingame.. At 0:35, that nice shiny shader on the leg armor, it looks fantastic, and I don't even think it's armored legs in the benchmark scene that's from..

I'm hoping others can see what I'm talking about, because I work in game graphics and so the differences are huge to my eyes.

Did they pull the old trick of splicing pre-rendered high quality scenes and try to make it seem like it's game play footage? Or is there just that huge a quality leap when using Vista> & DX10> ? Is anyone getting that quality in their graphics, because besides AO, I don't have many options to tweak that would make that kind of difference. Thoughts?

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:05pm by RattyBatty

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:06pm by RattyBatty
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#2 Sep 09 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
It's never a good idea to compare CGI to actual game footage. We're still quite a ways away from them being even close to the same. The original trailer is one of the few bits of CGI SE has released with regards to the game...and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that little CGI video as the intro movie to the game (like the Tavnazia video at the beginning of XI).
#3 Sep 09 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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What I'm trying to figure out is, is that indeed pre-rendered? Or do newer systems look that good in cut scenes somehow. Also there are scenes taken directly from the in-game cutscenes that seem to have some enhanced rendering and post-processing, which is even more confusing about whether it's rendered or realtime representations.

It's the bits taken from the scenes we know to be in-game, but that seem to have better elements to them (like those armored legs) that throws me off. I have not seen a single piece of metal look that nice in the game yet, most look like plastic. So how did that get into an 'in-game' scene, and why are they now replaced with some guy with boring cloth boots.


Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:13pm by RattyBatty
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#4 Sep 09 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
RattyBatty wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is, is that indeed pre-rendered? Or do newer systems look that good in cut scenes somehow. Also there are scenes taken directly from the in-game cutscenes that seem to have some enhanced rendering and post-processing, which is even more confusing about whether it's rendered or realtime representations.


It's not game footage. That's all you need to know. I don't understand what the obsession is with people needing to obsess over every teeny little detail. If a trailer is advertised as gameplay footage and it's had all kinds of post processing done to it, then by all means label it misleading. When it's a generic trailer, it's a trailer and if you look at something like that and think, "Holy cow! That's how it will look when you're playing the game?!?!?!" you're naive. Now you know better. If it doesn't say gameplay footage, don't assume it is.
#5 Sep 09 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
RattyBatty wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is, is that indeed pre-rendered? Or do newer systems look that good in cut scenes somehow. Also there are scenes taken directly from the in-game cutscenes that seem to have some enhanced rendering and post-processing, which is even more confusing about whether it's rendered or realtime representations.


It's not game footage. That's all you need to know. I don't understand what the obsession is with people needing to obsess over every teeny little detail. If a trailer is advertised as gameplay footage and it's had all kinds of post processing done to it, then by all means label it misleading. When it's a generic trailer, it's a trailer and if you look at something like that and think, "Holy cow! That's how it will look when you're playing the game?!?!?!" you're naive. Now you know better. If it doesn't say gameplay footage, don't assume it is.


Smiley: nod
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#6 Sep 09 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
"Holy cow! That's how it will look when you're playing the game?!?!?!" you're naive. Now you know better. If it doesn't say gameplay footage, don't assume it is.

You're missing the part where I say my main confusion comes from the scenes from the benchmark, which magically have much better elements put into them. So I thought I'd ask in here if it's just me, or nothin--

Yknow what I give up, ***** it.
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#7 Sep 09 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
RattyBatty wrote:
Quote:
"Holy cow! That's how it will look when you're playing the game?!?!?!" you're naive. Now you know better. If it doesn't say gameplay footage, don't assume it is.

You're missing the part where I say my main confusion comes from the scenes from the benchmark, which magically have much better elements put into them. So I thought I'd ask in here if it's just me, or nothin--

Yknow what I give up, ***** it.


I'm not missing anything. Your main confusion is that you're confusing yourself. Stop it. I answered your question...it's NOT gameplay footage. Ergo the old trailer quality is NOT misleading, ergo your question has been answered. Don't complicate it. Don't compare. Don't second guess. Question asked...question answered. Weeeee.
#8 Sep 09 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea dude, nothing misleading about it - its pre-rendered CGI and most people should know the difference by now.
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#9 Sep 09 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
most misleading thing about that trailer - limsa lominsa having a clear sky. total bull. SE turned that entire place into a cold cloudy mess
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#10 Sep 09 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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Except some of it IS game play footage. Like I keep saying, that's the part that threw me off. They spliced in stuff like those awesome leg armors into a scene that is clearly in-game. The result is making it seem like their engine renders metal a lot better than it actually does. I could tell that shot was in-game so when that leg armor strolled by i was like "hold on, WTF?".

Anyway w/e, moving along.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:25pm by RattyBatty
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#11 Sep 09 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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RattyBatty wrote:
Quote:
"Holy cow! That's how it will look when you're playing the game?!?!?!" you're naive. Now you know better. If it doesn't say gameplay footage, don't assume it is.

You're missing the part where I say my main confusion comes from the scenes from the benchmark, which magically have much better elements put into them. So I thought I'd ask in here if it's just me, or nothin--

Yknow what I give up, ***** it.


OHH ok. You're comparing the CGI pre-rendered scene in the trailer you linked to to the real time rendered opening cutscenes in the game. There is a difference once again - the ones in game have you, the character, in the scene therefore they can't be pre-rendered and of the same quality as a CGI cutscene because it would take a lot of resources to do that on the fly with no loading (or little loading). The trailer isn't misleading, its just pre-rendered...the ones in game aren't and all the ones in the game wont be (unless the off chance they don't use your character in them in which case they *may* go pre-rendered).
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#12 Sep 09 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I thought those opening cutscenes looked good personally, I was kinda bored watching the Limsa one in Phase 3, but then I see my Miqo'te there and that was pretty nifty Smiley: thumbsup
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#13 Sep 09 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

OHH ok. You're comparing the CGI pre-rendered scene in the trailer you linked to to the real time rendered opening cutscenes in the game. There is a difference once again - the ones in game have you, the character, in the scene therefore they can't be pre-rendered and of the same quality as a CGI cutscene because it would take a lot of resources to do that on the fly with no loading (or little loading). The trailer isn't misleading, its just pre-rendered...the ones in game aren't and all the ones in the game wont be (unless the off chance they don't use your character in them in which case they *may* go pre-rendered).

Dude I work in next gen game art for Ubisoft, you don't have to explain it to me slowly.

My game artist eyes recognized that that scene in the boat is captured from in-game, so the armored legs threw me off based on that. Then I had to question what other scenes had been 'tweaked' in there, therefore my misrepresentation comments.

Many scenes in there are taken from realtime CS's, and they added elements or enhanced the lighting effects etc. That has always been seen as a shady practice among game artists.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:30pm by RattyBatty
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#14 Sep 09 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree they looked great - I actually prefer real time scenes than pre-rendered ones although clearly the pre-rendered ones are of better quality but real time cutscenes don't feel separate than the game graphics...i dunno maybe its just me but for example in Metal Gear Solid all their cutscenes are done in real time and they feel more part of the game than a full blown CGI pre-rendered. Anyone agree? lol...maybe its just me dunno :P.

Quote:

Dude I work in next gen game art for Ubisoft, you don't have to explain it to me slowly.


Oh...I explained it "slowly" because thats the best way I know how to explain it, because I know squat **** about video game design...sorry if it sounded like i was belittling you, wasn't my intent.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:30pm by SolidMack
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#15 Sep 09 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Can you tell us where you're seeing the gameplay footage? I just watched it again and didn't see any. There may be different levels of CGI, so maybe you're confusing the lesser quality CGI with gameplay footage?
#16 Sep 09 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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Ok here goes, the following shots are from ingame. In-game as in realtime in-engine, not gamePLAY:

0:25 - rougher scene, from the behcnmark/pirate town starter CS. (Awesome looking leg armor spliced in, although it looks so integrated i could swear it's in-game)
0:37 - Again from the same scene except at 0:40 the water reflection looks a lot better.
0:44 - They added a blue gradient on multiply to the top of the screen to add some richness to the lighting.
0:49 onward, i geuss this is CG, too bad it won't look that nicely lit and well-stocked.
1:20 - Ingame - no edits on this one, the only part that's unmodified.
The rest : CG again.

So you can see from the mishmash back and forth of in-game, prerenfered, and hybrid shots... I was getting the feeling they were pulling a fast one with this trailer. Either that or newer systems look completely better (like Crysis DX9 vs Crysis DX10). So I thought I'd ask here.

Then everyone jumped down my throat :O



Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:41pm by RattyBatty
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#17 Sep 09 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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I think the fact that you mistook CGI footage for ingame footage only slightly less shiny is a pretty good indication that the graphics are the best they could have physically done on current hardware.
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#18 Sep 09 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
RattyBatty wrote:
Ok here goes, the following shots are from ingame. In-game as in realtime in-engine, not gamePLAY:

0:25 - rougher scene, from the behcnmark/pirate town starter CS. (Awesome looking leg armor spliced in, although it looks so integrated i could swear it's in-game)
0:37 - Again from the same scene except at 0:40 the water reflection looks a lot better.
0:44 - They added a blue gradient on multiply to the top of the screen to add some richness to the lighting.
0:49 onward, i geuss this is CG, too bad it won't look that nicely lit and well-stocked.
1:20 - Ingame - no edits on this one, the only part that's unmodified.
The rest : CG again.

So you can see from the mishmash back and forth of in-game, prerenfered, and hybrid shots... I was getting the feeling they were pulling a fast one with this trailer. Either that or newer systems look completely better (like Crysis DX9 vs Crysis DX10). So I thought I'd ask here.

Then everyone jumped down my throat :O


Because with all the negativity around here, implying through your title that the trailer was "misleading" was an exceptionally poor choice of words. It's not misleading because anyone who has been around computer games for any real length of time can watch that trailer and determine for themselves that not all of it is gameplay footage. And then when we're pleasantly surprised when something we thought was CGI is proven to actually be real-time rendered (Leviathan arching over the ship in the benchmark/LL intro) then we say, "Oooo" and "aaahh". And that approach doesn't heap even more negativity into a forum that is already struggling to bear the weight of the legitimate concerns.
#19 Sep 09 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's not misleading because anyone who has been around computer games for any real length of time can watch that trailer and determine for themselves that not all of it is gameplay footage

NOT ALL OF IT IS CLEARLY CGI numbnuts!! A lot of it is CLEARLY in-engine, throwing extra bits on top of that results in a misleading image. Get it? Good.
If you watch that and think it's 100% pre-rendered, you're the one that needs a little more 'experience'.



Edited, Sep 9th 2010 5:56pm by RattyBatty
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#20 Sep 09 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
People are taking perceived criticism of the game as an attack on their ego, this game might do ok purely on that. Of course, there seem to be people who take anyone defending the game as an attack on their 'this game suxorz' clique, so it might suffer too.
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#21 Sep 09 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
RattyBatty wrote:
Quote:
"Holy cow! That's how it will look when you're playing the game?!?!?!" you're naive. Now you know better. If it doesn't say gameplay footage, don't assume it is.

You're missing the part where I say my main confusion comes from the scenes from the benchmark, which magically have much better elements put into them. So I thought I'd ask in here if it's just me, or nothin--

Yknow what I give up, ***** it.


The benchmark is what the game looks like on a good system on high settings.

I haven't tried to compare it to any trailers because trailers are meant to give you an unnaturally positive perception, like any other commercial.


Edited, Sep 9th 2010 6:02pm by KarlHungis
#22 Sep 09 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
People are taking perceived criticism of the game as an attack on their ego, this game might do ok purely on that. Of course, there seem to be people who take anyone defending the game as an attack on their 'this game suxorz' clique, so it might suffer too.


Conclusion: people just like arguing.

I'm no computer whiz, but all I know is that FFXIV runs a lot worse graphically than pretty much any other game I own. Which is odd, because I'm playing games from 2005 with prettier graphics.

No, I don't have a £2000 laptop. But when I can run games like Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 on full high res with full light effects with 2000 people in the park (for those who haven't played, this is a lot) with no slowdown - and fyi, RCT was criticised for bad coding - something ain't right, even to me.

Doesn't matter if it's CGI, or if it's not CGI. The end of the day, it's misleading. But is it the end of the world? Not really.

You'll find out just how good it is at release. Until then, sit back, relax, and preorder Civilization V.
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#23 Sep 09 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
I'm totally getting Civilization V too! I'm really excited for it.


As for me personally, and its kind of irrelevant to the discussion, I don't care that much about graphics. Games try to have pretty graphics cover for lack of creativity and innovation in gameplay and story these days entirely too much. That's why all those old games are still pretty **** good, they couldn't cover for a crappy game with shiny graphics. The games had to be good or they'd fail horribly.

The games that always end up being the best are not the games that have the cutting edge top of the line new graphics, but the games that are new but the graphics look a half generation behind, because they spent their time on game design and story instead. (Which Civilization V looks like. ^.^)



Also, this is somewhat an issue of what I call the 'subtitle effect'. The subtitle effect is why movies with subtitles are often so good. Because for foreign films to get showed outside their country, they have to be a cut above in the first place, so there's a filter where the really bad subtitled movies don't get anywhere. Games with lower level graphics have to have good gameplay or story or else they flopped and you didn't hear about them in the first place.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 3:12pm by digitalcraft
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#24 Sep 09 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
RattyBatty wrote:
Quote:
It's not misleading because anyone who has been around computer games for any real length of time can watch that trailer and determine for themselves that not all of it is gameplay footage

NOT ALL OF IT IS CLEARLY CGI numbnuts!! A lot of it is CLEARLY in-engine, throwing extra bits on top of that results in a misleading image. Get it? Good.
If you watch that and think it's 100% pre-rendered, you're the one that needs a little more 'experience'.


Okay, ask a stupid question and get butthurt when you don't like the answer. You fit in around here just fine. Next.
#25 Sep 09 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
I have no ego involved in this, but as an outside observer, you have to admit that saying 'it wasn't ingame footage' doesn't answer the question as to that they made ingame footage look better than normal ingame footage.
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#26 Sep 09 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I have no ego involved in this, but as an outside observer, you have to admit that saying 'it wasn't ingame footage' doesn't answer the question as to that they made ingame footage look better than normal ingame footage.


Check the edit stamps on the post, and stop following me around trolling me. Thanks.
#27 Sep 09 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
Woah woah slow your roll. You and I just both happen to be posting on a bunch of different stuff. Trust me, I'm not 'following you around'. It just happens that on these forums, if I posted something, and I see a new post, I go check to see what was said. I just happen to be browsing the forums while enjoying some new (to me) music since I have to leave pretty soon to go meet some friends for art night.

The music I'm listening to is Faithless' CD 'The Dance' from 2010. It's... alright. No songs that really catch me yet. They're ok music, but Faithless has some songs that are just so good, I guess its hard to live up to.



Trust me, you're one of the last people I'd troll. I'm just disagreeing with you, it's not because I hate you or anything. You need to not get so personally involved with your opinions.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 4:05pm by digitalcraft
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