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#52 Sep 09 2010 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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i will give my two cents here.

i come from a old MMO lineage 2, were grind, gear and levels were everything.... walking outta a town was a survival of the fittest be on your toes, clans 200+ people, 200-400 people raids, bi monthly castle seiges, mounts and mini quests.

Eve online, MASSIVE game, 10k players, massive 100 ship space battles, easy leveling system...great game just got old after a while.

while i miss pvp i can live without it.

but overall so far in beta all i have done is run from crystal to crystal doing leves, and not really much else, maybe i am not taking full advantage so far, i finally joined up with some people into a linkshell. now there is alot of things i could do but alot i don't full understand about the game yet.


so ill give the game till the end of beta maybe a month or two in retail and see how fast things speed up.. so far i have seen alot of people who arn't willing to include others in multiple playing and some things.


so overall yes i feel FFXIV very lacking but its early in the game there are a TON of things they could do to improve this game.
#53 Sep 10 2010 at 5:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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My main concern about FFXIV is content.

I just do not want to grind to have any progression. Have done it before and not going to do this again. I want to be entertained. Log in the game do something and feel I have accomplished something. If it is going slow to level, great. If I need to think about my actions in the game, even greater. But not mindless bashing mobs to no end or crafting grind to only sell the product to a NPC for progression, not anymore. Also grind does not equal "handhold" or "hard".

Sure grind is good, if you chose to do so. For example to get a rare item or mats for crafting. But not as a basic gameplay to progress your character.

Now I see a lot of you saying this is beta and SE won't give us the full game. My question is where did you read this or is there any source that confirm this. All I can see is that the way to progress is doing leve's and/or grind. Even the storyline is not giving you any XP (sure do not mind doing them for no XP, it is great fun but just an example how scarce XP gain is)

If beta is the content we get then we will see ... every 48 hours peeps are running to the guildleve NPC, running to the place to initiate them and run them. After 8 are done, you basically going to grind again, with or without LS friends.

And if release is the same as beta then FFXIV will not succeed and my prediction is that it will have even lower subs then FFXI. Aion failed because of the grind and there it started at around level 35, FFXIV starts to get grindy at level 4.

I certainly hope this is not the case, because I really like FFXIV. I also do not care about laggy UI, no hardware mouse, no XP for healing, timesink in traveling (and I could go on and on) becausse I can work around it and adept or just plain ignore it. No content in a MMORPG is game breaking for me.

I also post this, because I hope SE is seeing this and at least can give us some information about the release. But till now they are silent as usual :s
#54 Sep 10 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
crafting grind to only sell the product to a NPC for progression, not anymore.


Ohhhhhhhh yeah. I had kinda forgotten about this. Son of a...SO painful. /girlrage
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#55 Sep 10 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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its all well and good folks screaming "its only beta, things will improve"

what if (perish the thought) we all buy the game on the assumption that "things will improve"

and its just the same as it is now?

who but SE knows what the full game will have in it?

and afaik SE have not divulged what will be in the game come release?

so all this "its only beta, it will improve" is purely speculation at this point, i know games do and will improve after beta so fingers crossed eh?

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 11:27am by bushpig
#56 Sep 10 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Every complaint I have and read about FFXIV is a valid complaint about something that actually exists in the game as of today.

The only defense I see from anyone is "it is beta and will be fixed for release". Apparently SE will be able to fix the menus, the UI lag, the general latency lag, and add a boatload of content for release so people will actually have something to do. Many leaps of faith are required to think the game will be decent, and too many for SE to earn my $50 to buy the game.

For the sake of all you FF fans, I hope the people defrending this game are correct or you will have a real **** on your hands.
#57 Sep 10 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Enscheff wrote:
Every complaint I have and read about FFXIV is a valid complaint about something that actually exists in the game as of today.

The only defense I see from anyone is "it is beta and will be fixed for release". Apparently SE will be able to fix the menus, the UI lag, the general latency lag, and add a boatload of content for release so people will actually have something to do. Many leaps of faith are required to think the game will be decent, and too many for SE to earn my $50 to buy the game.

For the sake of all you FF fans, I hope the people defrending this game are correct or you will have a real **** on your hands.


The Mythbusters proved for a national TV audience that you can, in fact, polish a ****.

(I just hope SE watches Mythbusters...)
#58 Sep 10 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Enscheff wrote:
Every complaint I have and read about FFXIV is a valid complaint about something that actually exists in the game as of today.

The only defense I see from anyone is "it is beta and will be fixed for release". Apparently SE will be able to fix the menus, the UI lag, the general latency lag, and add a boatload of content for release so people will actually have something to do. Many leaps of faith are required to think the game will be decent, and too many for SE to earn my $50 to buy the game.

For the sake of all you FF fans, I hope the people defrending this game are correct or you will have a real **** on your hands.
Content (quests, missions, city storylines, etc) can all be unrolled down the road, assuming they can take care of the other core problems with the game.
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#59 Sep 10 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Enscheff wrote:
Every complaint I have and read about FFXIV is a valid complaint about something that actually exists in the game as of today.

The only defense I see from anyone is "it is beta and will be fixed for release". Apparently SE will be able to fix the menus, the UI lag, the general latency lag, and add a boatload of content for release so people will actually have something to do. Many leaps of faith are required to think the game will be decent, and too many for SE to earn my $50 to buy the game.

For the sake of all you FF fans, I hope the people defrending this game are correct or you will have a real **** on your hands.
Content (quests, missions, city storylines, etc) can all be unrolled down the road, assuming they can take care of the other core problems with the game.


I am afraid that people won't even stay past the first free month if that content isn't there at release.

In fact, the fanboi defense of the game I am most willing to believe is that there is tons of content that we just don't have access to yet. I barely believe it though because surely they would want this content tested before release right? Since we are not testing it I am inclined to believe it does not exist.

I seriously, and I mean seriously, doubt they can fix the core issues in the next couple of weeks. Things like UI lag, server latency, lame menus and boring combat have been issues since the first beta leaks have came out, and I seriously doubt they will magically all be fixed in two weeks when they haven't been fixed in months of beta testing.

Does anyone really think they can just "move the UI control client side" without testing it in beta? Does anyone suggesting that have any idea what that kind of change would entail programmatically? Just because you read it on some messageboard does not mean you understand it, and trust me when I tell you it isn't just some switch they can flip to make it happen.
#60 Sep 10 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Enscheff wrote:


In fact, the fanboi defense of the game I am most willing to believe is that there is tons of content that we just don't have access to yet. I barely believe it though because surely they would want this content tested before release right? Since we are not testing it I am inclined to believe it does not exist.



Yeah, right - they are going to release the game with most of the cities locked?

The content is there and they have paid testers to check it out.

I'm as concerned as everyone else about the UI lag - it is terribad. I don't think anyone disagrees - but as for leves and the like - they aren't even offering faction leves etc yet - so obviously that is coming.

And with new cities and villages etc - how much more content are people looking for? I haven't even scratched the surface of what is available - have other people already hit level cap? I am seriously confused by people who complain there is not enough content. Do you have every job at 50 already?



Edited, Sep 10th 2010 11:13am by Olorinus

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 11:14am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#61 Sep 10 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Enscheff wrote:
I am afraid that people won't even stay past the first free month if that content isn't there at release.

I'm willing to bet that almost all of the people who will be playing at launch are former FFXI players and fair-weather MMO fans who are always in pursuit of the best MMO experience. We'll lose a lot of those and we'll lose a few former FFXI players perhaps (although they may come back later), but the majority of the casual market SE is aiming for and gamers in general probably won't give the game a try until months or years after release. By then there will be much more content. Most of the people I knew in my FFXI linkshell didn't start playing that game until 2005 or 2006.
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#62 Sep 10 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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The open beta is purely a server stability phase as well as a way for SE to judge player activities, leveling rates, etc. They don't want or need us to test all of the content. Knowing SE's philosophy it's not surprising at all for them to hold content back until release. They don't want the open beta to be a "free preview". For some reason they avoid the free advertising they'd get from doing such.
#63 Sep 10 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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I like to grind.

If by grind you mean kill things and then get experience and level up and then kill more things.

That is my happy place.
#64 Sep 10 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is a lot of information in this thread and it's a good discussion. I know a beta is a beta, testing. But from my experience beta is close to a final product. Outside of leaving a few things out. And the OP and a few others have some great points. I haven't seen one thing in Beta that tells me "man I gotta get this game". And I think 'partially' that's what a beta is for. I guess I'm tired of "buying the final product" to see if I like it. Now I haven't played XI so I have nothing to go on, nothing to tell me -- it's going to get better.

So for now I think I'll hold off for a bit, maybe wait until the PS3 version is out. Nice graphics though, lots of hills. I ran for 30 minutes, didn't see another town after I left the castle ;).
#65 Sep 10 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:

And with new cities and villages etc - how much more content are people looking for? I haven't even scratched the surface of what is available - have other people already hit level cap? I am seriously confused by people who complain there is not enough content. Do you have every job at 50 already?


Judging from this post, I think you believe Pac-man has a lot of content because you can play for days and not beat the game?
#66 Sep 10 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
DragonBourne wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:

And with new cities and villages etc - how much more content are people looking for? I haven't even scratched the surface of what is available - have other people already hit level cap? I am seriously confused by people who complain there is not enough content. Do you have every job at 50 already?


Judging from this post, I think you believe Pac-man has a lot of content because you can play for days and not beat the game?


METAPHOR FAIL.

Maybe if I got a new ability (or several new abilities) I could mix and match with other abilities every evening I played pac man - and a huge open world to explore and a ton of quests, and a bunch of recipes to make gear that would make pac man higher powered... Oh, and if didn't have to start from level 1 every time I turned on the game... this would be an adequate comparison - but man, give me a break.

Seriously - please explain to me what content means to you?

Content to me is jobs, abilities, world maps and general things to do. What is it to you?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#67 Sep 10 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
RufuSwho wrote:
I like to grind.

If by grind you mean kill things and then get experience and level up and then kill more things.

That is my happy place.


But man, haven't you heard? There is some other NEW and IMPROVED kind of leveling system. Grinding is SOOOO 2001.

Having to kill 10 rats then run back somewhere and report to an NPC is groundbreaking gameplay!

Even though it is the exact same grind - people DESERVE extra exp just for running back and showing off the rats they killed to an npc who always wants rats killed... because killing ten rats just to practice your skills is TOO HARD. We need to be powerleveled by the game engine or it is NO FUN.

After all if it takes more than 2 weeks to hit level cap then the game is boring and grindy.

/sarcasm

____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#68 Sep 10 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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If they wont even fix the software mouse issue what makes you guys think they are gonna fix everything else in a reasonable amount of time?
I tried the retainer system today, ugliest thing I have ever experienced in an MMO. Lifeless player created NPCs crammed into 1 of 30 or so "wards" you teleport into, appearing to have no purpose in life but represent the absurdity of someone at Squareenix. And they said they are gonna add a search feature to this? So they are backing it with that statement, they have pretty much confirmed they are not thinking of replacing it with an AH at this moment, 9 days from release.
If this game flops, the retainer system is gonna be the punch line for all the jokes that follow.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 4:54pm by MaFi0s0
#69 Sep 10 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
DragonBourne wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:

And with new cities and villages etc - how much more content are people looking for? I haven't even scratched the surface of what is available - have other people already hit level cap? I am seriously confused by people who complain there is not enough content. Do you have every job at 50 already?


Judging from this post, I think you believe Pac-man has a lot of content because you can play for days and not beat the game?


METAPHOR FAIL.

Maybe if I got a new ability (or several new abilities) I could mix and match with other abilities every evening I played pac man - and a huge open world to explore and a ton of quests, and a bunch of recipes to make gear that would make pac man higher powered... Oh, and if didn't have to start from level 1 every time I turned on the game... this would be an adequate comparison - but man, give me a break.

Seriously - please explain to me what content means to you?

Content to me is jobs, abilities, world maps and general things to do. What is it to you?


Content to me, is things provided by SE and not myself. And by saying SE provided the means, this, in some sense, is true. But if we look at it deeper, it takes much more than just providing the means to be worthy of a monthly fee. Would you pay a monthly fee to play Pac-man? Of course not! And I stay with the comparison, because if the game stays like this at release, that's exactly what it will be. A neverending, pointless grind that sucks up your time and money and gives nothing in return. The gaming industry is getting more skimpy every year because we allow them by accepting things like this. I can remember a time when you bought a game, you got a complete game. Now they hold things back at release so they can 'issue' them later as an expansion pack, or the most recent scam 'downloadable content' What happened to the content being in there at release. When they release a game, they release the other half of it for a fee. To me, that is unacceptable. Not sure where you stand.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 4:56pm by DragonBourne
#70 Sep 10 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
DragonBourne wrote:


Content to me, is things provided by SE and not myself. And by saying SE provided the means, this, in some sense, is true. But if we look at it deeper, it takes much more than just providing the means to be worthy of a monthly fee. Would you pay a monthly fee to play Pac-man? Of course not! And I stay with the comparison, because if the game stays like this at release, that's exactly what it will be. A neverending, pointless grind that sucks up your time and money and gives nothing in return. The gaming industry is getting more skimpy every year because we allow them by accepting things like this. I can remember a time when you bought a game, you got a complete game. Now they hold things back at release so they can 'issue' them later as an expansion pack, or the most recent scam 'downloadable content' What happened to the content being in there at release. When they release a game, they release the other half of it for a fee. To me, that is unacceptable. Not sure where you stand.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 4:56pm by DragonBourne


If it is like Open Beta and has no new cities or other content of course I will be ****** off. If the UI isn't fixed I am not going to be happy either. That goes without saying. It is more than a bit of a stretch to compare the game even in open beta to pac man though.

I dunno but in my experience all games are essentially "pointless" - they are there to entertain me. Any mmo - in the end - all the time you put into it serves no point once you delete your character. So I don't get what you are expecting.

If you want a real reward for your efforts I suggest you write a book or something.

All MMOs in the end are "neverending, pointless grind[s] that suck up your time and money and give nothing in return" - that is what they are designed to be. I play them because I don't want to "finish" the game. That is the attraction for me. If you want to finish a game - I suggest you play a different genre.

As for downloadable content etc. I don't see the issue. If you don't want to buy it don't. These companies exist to make money - so I for one am not very shocked that they are finding new ways to get value from their products. I like expansions and I don't mind paying for them because the money for development needs to come from somewhere and they don't usually end up being so expensive that it matters to me.

I guess the issue is I am not sure what exactly you are looking for. I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your points, but I truly just don't understand.

It might be because I play differently - like I haven't even had time to do levequests this week because I've been grinding up my crafting profession when I did play and haven't played much.

So while other people are complaining about the 48 hr limit, for example - I haven't even been able to max out my leves. [Personally my gripe is that you can't accumulate leves for the weekend or something - so if I don't have time to play all week I lose out on leves... would be better if you could accumulate them for a day of extended playtime]

I think that is what makes it difficult to understand some of the complaints people are having - and really - it is too bad that people aren't having fun. I hope things improve - I certainly see a lot of room for improvement.

If things don't, well I am happy enough with the way things are to stick it out for awhile. In the future, I may not be... but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.



Edited, Sep 10th 2010 2:08pm by Olorinus

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 2:10pm by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#71 Sep 10 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
But man, haven't you heard? There is some other NEW and IMPROVED kind of leveling system. Grinding is SOOOO 2001.

Having to kill 10 rats then run back somewhere and report to an NPC is groundbreaking gameplay!

Even though it is the exact same grind - people DESERVE extra exp just for running back and showing off the rats they killed to an npc who always wants rats killed... because killing ten rats just to practice your skills is TOO HARD. We need to be powerleveled by the game engine or it is NO FUN.

After all if it takes more than 2 weeks to hit level cap then the game is boring and grindy.

/sarcasm



Exactly what I always wanted was a game that tells you exactly were to go and what to do. It would be best if you could just hit the "auto-quest" button and it completes the quest for you. Also, I want to buy stuff, but not earn it. Best if there is someone I can buy in-game currency from at launch. I want to be drawn into the game world. But cutscenes are boring so I'll skip those.

I want a game with a good storyline, but I don't want to have to walk around finding the next NPC. Give me a good storyline with no cutscenes or NPCs please.

I don't like walking so I will require unlimited teleports. And I don't like grinding enemies so I would like to gain EXP whenever I hit F9.
#72 Sep 10 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
DragonBourne wrote:


Content to me, is things provided by SE and not myself. And by saying SE provided the means, this, in some sense, is true. But if we look at it deeper, it takes much more than just providing the means to be worthy of a monthly fee. Would you pay a monthly fee to play Pac-man? Of course not! And I stay with the comparison, because if the game stays like this at release, that's exactly what it will be. A neverending, pointless grind that sucks up your time and money and gives nothing in return. The gaming industry is getting more skimpy every year because we allow them by accepting things like this. I can remember a time when you bought a game, you got a complete game. Now they hold things back at release so they can 'issue' them later as an expansion pack, or the most recent scam 'downloadable content' What happened to the content being in there at release. When they release a game, they release the other half of it for a fee. To me, that is unacceptable. Not sure where you stand.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 4:56pm by DragonBourne


If it is like Open Beta and has no new cities or other content of course I will be ****** off. If the UI isn't fixed I am not going to be happy either. That goes without saying. It is more than a bit of a stretch to compare the game even in open beta to pac man though.

I dunno but in my experience all games are essentially "pointless" - they are there to entertain me. Any mmo - in the end - all the time you put into it serves no point once you delete your character. So I don't get what you are expecting.

If you want a real reward for your efforts I suggest you write a book or something.

All MMOs in the end are "neverending, pointless grind[s] that suck up your time and money and give nothing in return" - that is what they are designed to be. I play them because I don't want to "finish" the game. That is the attraction for me. If you want to finish a game - I suggest you play a different genre.

As for downloadable content etc. I don't see the issue. If you don't want to buy it don't. These companies exist to make money - so I for one am not very shocked that they are finding new ways to get value from their products. I like expansions and I don't mind paying for them because the money for development needs to come from somewhere and they don't usually end up being so expensive that it matters to me.

I guess the issue is I am not sure what exactly you are looking for. I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your points, but I truly just don't understand.

It might be because I play differently - like I haven't even had time to do levequests this week because I've been grinding up my crafting profession when I did play and haven't played much.

So while other people are complaining about the 48 hr limit, for example - I haven't even been able to max out my leves. [Personally my gripe is that you can't accumulate leves for the weekend or something - so if I don't have time to play all week I lose out on leves... would be better if you could accumulate them for a day of extended playtime]

I think that is what makes it difficult to understand some of the complaints people are having - and really - it is too bad that people aren't having fun. I hope things improve - I certainly see a lot of room for improvement.

If things don't, well I am happy enough with the way things are to stick it out for awhile. In the future, I may not be... but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.



Edited, Sep 10th 2010 2:08pm by Olorinus

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 2:10pm by Olorinus


If you can get 1 million people to send you a dollar a month, do you think you could design and upkeep a game? If you can get 500,000 people to send you $15 dollars a month...yeah, you're right. They deserve more than that. Programming is expensive.
#73 Sep 10 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
DragonBourne wrote:

If you can get 1 million people to send you a dollar a month, do you think you could design and upkeep a game? If you can get 500,000 people to send you $15 dollars a month...yeah, you're right. They deserve more than that. Programming is expensive.



It isn't about whether or not they "deserve" it. Deserving has nothing to do with it. It is their product. They are a business - we live in a capitalist society - and as such businesses have the right to charge what they want for their products. You have a right to refuse to pay the price.

Are they being greedy? Yeah, probably.

Is it unusual/shocking for a corporation to be greedy? No. Corporations are legally obliged to make money for their shareholders.

Would I rather pay less for the same thing? Yeah, of course, but that goes for everything.

____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#74 Sep 10 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
DragonBourne wrote:

If you can get 1 million people to send you a dollar a month, do you think you could design and upkeep a game? If you can get 500,000 people to send you $15 dollars a month...yeah, you're right. They deserve more than that. Programming is expensive.



It isn't about whether or not they "deserve" it. Deserving has nothing to do with it. It is their product. They are a business - we live in a capitalist society - and as such businesses have the right to charge what they want for their products. You have a right to refuse to pay the price.

Are they being greedy? Yeah, probably.

Is it unusual/shocking for a corporation to be greedy? No. Corporations are legally obliged to make money for their shareholders.

Would I rather pay less for the same thing? Yeah, of course, but that goes for everything.



The issue is not really the companies, as you stated, of course they would do this. The issue I have are the people with the mentality that it is somehow right. For example, you go to buy a new refrigerator and you question the salesman about the non-existant freezer and he simply states 'That feature didn't make it in time for release, but it will be available next week as an expansion!' You would say, 'To **** with you, I can get a complete fridge elsewhere for what I'm paying for this 'half fridge'!' Why should our games be any different? Don't get me wrong, I love SE and the games they create and this is just beta and we don't know nearly as much as we'd like to think we do. Will I play it come release? Probably! Will I accept paying $12.99 a month to play Pac-Man? No. But the good thing for SE is, if they lose me, there are a million more to take my place. We have ourselves to thank for that!

P.S And to say I never got anything out of a game would be blasphemy. I played Diablo II and it offered me years of enjoyment...Price of Admission? $49.99 and no recurring charge. Alas, those days are gone...

EDIT: Just wanted to say it is nice having a discussion with someone mature enough not to let it degrade to a flamefest. Cheers to you!

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 5:39pm by DragonBourne
#75 Sep 10 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
DragonBourne wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
DragonBourne wrote:

If you can get 1 million people to send you a dollar a month, do you think you could design and upkeep a game? If you can get 500,000 people to send you $15 dollars a month...yeah, you're right. They deserve more than that. Programming is expensive.



It isn't about whether or not they "deserve" it. Deserving has nothing to do with it. It is their product. They are a business - we live in a capitalist society - and as such businesses have the right to charge what they want for their products. You have a right to refuse to pay the price.

Are they being greedy? Yeah, probably.

Is it unusual/shocking for a corporation to be greedy? No. Corporations are legally obliged to make money for their shareholders.

Would I rather pay less for the same thing? Yeah, of course, but that goes for everything.



The issue is not really the companies, as you stated, of course they would do this. The issue I have are the people with the mentality that it is somehow right. For example, you go to buy a new refrigerator and you question the salesman about the non-existant freezer and he simply states 'That feature didn't make it in time for release, but it will be available next week as an expansion!' You would say, 'To **** with you, I can get a complete fridge elsewhere for what I'm paying for this 'half fridge'!' Why should our games be any different? Don't get me wrong, I love SE and the games they create and this is just beta and we don't know nearly as much as we'd like to think we do. Will I play it come release? Probably! Will I accept paying $12.99 a month to play Pac-Man? No. But the good thing for SE is, if they lose me, there are a million more to take my place. We have ourselves to thank for that!

P.S And to say I never got anything out of a game would be blasphemy. I played Diablo II and it offered me years of enjoyment...Price of Admission? $49.99 and no recurring charge. Alas, those days are gone...

EDIT: Just wanted to say it is nice having a discussion with someone mature enough not to let it degrade to a flamefest. Cheers to you!



The difference is in the type of product. I can get another game but I don't have a choice between different providers of FFXIV. It is a totally different market than say for appliances which all essentially do the same thing regardless of manufacturer.

Agreed. It is nice to have a reasoned conversation.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#76 Sep 10 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:

The difference is in the type of product. I can get another game but I don't have a choice between different providers of FFXIV. It is a totally different market than say for appliances which all essentially do the same thing regardless of manufacturer.

Agreed. It is nice to have a reasoned conversation.


I guess this is where our opinions differ. I am an equal opportunity 'Take your product and shove it where the sun don't shine' kind of guy. I expect quality and value for my hard earned money and accept no substitutes. I can always play another game. But once you lower your values for a game, or anything else for that matter, it's really hard to find your way back.
#77 Sep 10 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
DragonBourne wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:

The difference is in the type of product. I can get another game but I don't have a choice between different providers of FFXIV. It is a totally different market than say for appliances which all essentially do the same thing regardless of manufacturer.

Agreed. It is nice to have a reasoned conversation.


I guess this is where our opinions differ. I am an equal opportunity 'Take your product and shove it where the sun don't shine' kind of guy. I expect quality and value for my hard earned money and accept no substitutes. I can always play another game. But once you lower your values for a game, or anything else for that matter, it's really hard to find your way back.


Yeah we do differ here because unfortunately there are not really many providers of the kind of games I want to play. I would rather play FFXIV and pay for expansions than play a game I don't like and not pay for expansions, and unfortunately most of the games out there don't interest me.

Like for example they are all shoot-em-up or gorey (played Warhammer for example and the soundtrack was like people screaming all the time and explosions etc. - not very nice)

I like the atmosphere in Final Fantasy games. If someone made something I liked as much that was cheaper I would take a look at it though.

Also I don't really consider it to be about values - paying more or less for something isn't really a "values" issue for me. If I couldn't afford the cost of the game that would be a whole different story, however.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 3:13pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#78 Sep 10 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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RufuSwho wrote:
Grand Master Scribe Olorinus wrote:
But man, haven't you heard? There is some other NEW and IMPROVED kind of leveling system. Grinding is SOOOO 2001.

Having to kill 10 rats then run back somewhere and report to an NPC is groundbreaking gameplay!

Even though it is the exact same grind - people DESERVE extra exp just for running back and showing off the rats they killed to an npc who always wants rats killed... because killing ten rats just to practice your skills is TOO HARD. We need to be powerleveled by the game engine or it is NO FUN.

After all if it takes more than 2 weeks to hit level cap then the game is boring and grindy.

/sarcasm



Exactly what I always wanted was a game that tells you exactly were to go and what to do. It would be best if you could just hit the "auto-quest" button and it completes the quest for you. Also, I want to buy stuff, but not earn it. Best if there is someone I can buy in-game currency from at launch. I want to be drawn into the game world. But cutscenes are boring so I'll skip those.

I want a game with a good storyline, but I don't want to have to walk around finding the next NPC. Give me a good storyline with no cutscenes or NPCs please.

I don't like walking so I will require unlimited teleports. And I don't like grinding enemies so I would like to gain EXP whenever I hit F9.


Aww, I guess I have to say /sarcasm no one will even read it through to the surprise ending. I thought we were playing a sarcasm game.

"I don't like grinding enemies so I would like to gain EXP whenever I hit F9."

I was thinking that was my best line of the day.
#79 Sep 10 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
But man, haven't you heard? There is some other NEW and IMPROVED kind of leveling system. Grinding is SOOOO 2001.

Having to kill 10 rats then run back somewhere and report to an NPC is groundbreaking gameplay!

Even though it is the exact same grind - people DESERVE extra exp just for running back and showing off the rats they killed to an npc who always wants rats killed... because killing ten rats just to practice your skills is TOO HARD. We need to be powerleveled by the game engine or it is NO FUN.

After all if it takes more than 2 weeks to hit level cap then the game is boring and grindy.

/sarcasm


Personally, I would have alot less issue with "pure grind" if there was immersion in it. By this i mean, i don't find killing funguar or squirrels immersive past a "we need to prune the population for ecosystem balance" level.

To me, i think a "pure grind" would be immersive if it were purposeful. To use ffxi as an example - having beastmen be more common in some zones, and assaulting strategic elements of that zone instead of simply pathing around for no aparent reason. Having those mobs be your primary focus in leveling i think would be immersive. Fighting the good fight i suppose, isntead of random genocide of indigenious species of crab.

I think besiged is a decent model, sorta (memory is fuzzy tbh). I had hoped that Aion would have done something similar to this in its leveling model, but sadly it was lacking.

That kind of thing should be the only immersive "pure grind" that is allowable really for me. Anything else is really just unspecific, unfocused, unimmersive grinding. Which brings to bear tedium to me.

You might like it, and that is perfectly fine. But nothing is stopping you from grinding in a game with questing built into the leveling process. When a game is built around grinding, it locks you into it. Tbh, giving people options is a good thing. Along those lines, having all options be viable is the mark of good balancing.

Pacing is pacing, you can easily pace out quests or grinding to take the same amount of time in the end.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 6:29pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#80 Sep 10 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
And I don't like grinding enemies so I would like to gain EXP whenever I hit F9.

shame on you, F keys arent allowed in FFXIV
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#81 Sep 10 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Content in my opinion is questing, a nice environment, crafting, dungeons and immersion. In other words a game I lose time in. Those aspects of gameplay work together. One of those aspects is missing and that is questing. And in my opinion guildleve's are not quests but just random generated jobs without any reason to do them. Heck you better grind mobs then to do them if you want to most out of the XP/Hour.

If I play a RPG, I want to be given a reason why I need to kill a rat. If it is solely for progression then it loses immersion despite how wonderful the world is. Same goes for the crafting system. And yes, in OB you progress fast. But players who played other Asian MMORPG (including FFXI) know how steep the XP curve will be at higher level and there it becomes a boring gameplay, at least for me.

When MMORPG first started, the grind gameplay was very normal. I did it also, hours grinding in one spot to progress my character. Did I have fun then, sure. Sitting in Roger Wilco (if you remember this :P), chatting with others having a laugh. But nowadays, I can't stand it no more, I get tired after 30 minutes instead it would be nice to have some kind of diversity. I want to be entertained. Give me crazy funny quests where I have to walk for 15 minutes for a mere XP (where if you would grind mobs, you would get way more XP). This is unfortunately not in FFXIV as far I can see now. If you like to grind, fine, have fun, but at least give us players the choice how we want to progress not force us to grind mobs/crafts for progression.

FFXIV is a role playing game, I do not see any role playing in grinding.

Reading through this topic I can see that some find "the grind" aka killing mobs at the same spot over and over again to no end for purely progression, content. If you like this kind of content, then more power to you, I really do not. If the conclusion is that FFXIV is not my game, then so be it. In the end all we want is to have fun in a game :)

Also the metaphor about pacman is a good one. Same as I am not going to read a book where the only sentence will be "blah blah and blah" for 300 pages long ;-) Exaggerated of course but hope you get my point :)

If SE is adding more quests (content imo) and give us player a reason to kill rats, then I am an happy Panda :D

If you like the grind, I am also not trying to convince any of you otherwise, absolutely not. It is just not my thing.



Edited, Sep 10th 2010 6:45pm by Shoomy
#82 Sep 10 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I have been playing the game since the open beta began (yes, not very long), but I have not yet felt bored in any way. In fact, I just don't have enough time to do everything I want to do.

If I were only interested in leveling 1 class and nothing else, I could see a problem there.

I am personally beyond excited for release and I will be playing this game for a very long time.

I agree there are some issues. I am a patient gamer and will absolutely enjoy myself during the time SE takes to handle them.
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