Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Anyone else worried about dps mechanics?Follow

#1 Sep 10 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm worried about the fact that weapon speed doesnt exist, only a static weapon animation speed for weapon types. Each weapon type does different damage, with lances currently having the highest attack power (For example), but all weapon attacks, across the board, use the same amount of stamina.
The only difference in raw 'speed' between classes is animation speed (which I think conjurer/thaumaturge have a huge edge in, thus doing more damage w/ attack spam than anyone else).

It doesnt seem as if SE balanced this at all, what with the stamina system being implemented only months ago.

Strong weapons dont have a slower speed to compensate, nor a higher stamina cost to use, and so forth. Only, in some cases, lower accuracy. Accuracy is the only real weapon-strength-countermeasure in this game.

In ffxi, and every other mmo (and rpg pretty much), a dagger will be faster than an axe, thus making up for a dagger's low damage-per-hit. In ffxiv, a dagger costs the same stamina as an axe to attack with.

SE tried to make sense of this somehow by adding a 'multiple hit' attack to gladiator, to make them feel as if their one hander is any faster than a two hander (same w/ pugilist). but thats a band-aid on the reality that there is no speed stat.

The real harm in not having a speed stat for weapons is this: less weapon variance. There wont be a fast axe with lower power, or a slower polearm with more power. They're all the same speed, and all cost the same stamina. The only different weapons we have now are weapons with lower accuracy and higher attack, and weapons with higher accuracy and lower attack. No speed variances make ffxiv a sad boy.

But MOST importantly is whether or not SE is capable of balancing this. Those of you who can put their mind around this, feel free to comment.

This is not an elitist post, nor one that shares the view of "DPS IS KING!". Please to not troll or flame, thank you
____________________________
Requested self-ban from admin. Later guys, good luck
#2 Sep 10 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
All they have to do is adjust the stamina requirement for different weapons, and it wouldn't surprise me to find that that's exactly what they have in mind for release.
#3 Sep 10 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
**
353 posts
There is no other way around it aside from auto-attack.
#4 Sep 10 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
***
2,815 posts
Quote:
This is not an elitist post

Didn't sound like it until:
Quote:
Those of you who can put their mind around this, feel free to comment.
____________________________
Minecraft : My anti-MMO
Terraria : My anti-Minecraft
#5 Sep 10 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
Imaboomer wrote:
There is no other way around it aside from auto-attack.


Not true at all. Adjusting the stamina usage for different weapons is one option. Appending a GCD to all abilities associated with your weapon is another. There are plenty of ways SE could adjust the pace of combat based on weapon type, it's just that the stamina adjustment would likely be the superior option.
#6 Sep 10 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Default
**
602 posts
FLAME ON
____________________________
BANNED

#7 Sep 10 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Yeah it is pretty funny how I can spam Gaxe skills like nobody's business with my puny Miqote.
#8 Sep 10 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Yeah I've been wondering how that'll pan out...

I really just wish they would've added auto-attack.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#9 Sep 10 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
RattyBatty wrote:
Quote:
This is not an elitist post

Didn't sound like it until:
Quote:
Those of you who can put their mind around this, feel free to comment.

Not everyone is up for talking about strats and dps and such. thats why forums usually split between "General" and "Strategy" discussion boards. I didnt want this discussion to be about explaining the fundamentals of what dps is, why speed matters, etc. I wanted a discussion from people who are ready to discuss because i know a lot of us are curious.
Maybe a smidgeon elitist, but humbly so and for the sake of progress, not epeen-******** :)


Quote:
Yeah it is pretty funny how I can spam Gaxe skills like nobody's business with my puny Miqote.

Yeah, or how I can machinegun as my conjurer/thaumaturge and outdamage meleers (the attacking animation for mages is a simple movement of the arm. meanwhile lancers usually move about, pugilists attack 2-4 times, and hop back after attacking, etc, which all add a wait until their next action)

I think when people start realizing the dps numbers and how OP and UP some skills/strats are, we're gonna realize how broken the stamina system is, as currently implemented.
I've noticed spamming the normal attack is absolutely fine. the only drawback is you run out of stamina too quickly (before you get speed surge). weaponskills do 2x/3x the damage of a normal weapon attack, but it takes around 2x longer to use (character tends to stand around for half a second before starting the animation, then the animation has a window where you gotta wait for the animation to get past a certain point until your next move will execute (usually 1/2 way through the weaponskill).
meanwhile, with attacks, you can keep attacking with no actual delays.

stamina wasnt looked at enough by the development team. its cool but clearly hasnt been integrated into the game balance-wise

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 10:53pm by DirectorCobbs
____________________________
Requested self-ban from admin. Later guys, good luck
#10 Sep 10 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,536 posts
TC while I agree with what you said I just wanna correct you on this:

Quote:
SE tried to make sense of this somehow by adding a 'multiple hit' attack to gladiator, to make them feel as if their one hander is any faster than a two hander (same w/ pugilist). but thats a band-aid on the reality that there is no speed stat.


The "multiple hit" doesn't apply to one or two classes - its an animation for critical hits across all (melee?) classes.

I don't think the system is exactly ready for prime time, I can't wait 'til this game is polished to a sheen - until then we wont know what its meant to play like...I don't know why SE is rushing release. On one hand I can't wait 'til the 22nd and on the other hand I wish they would just delay it and release with the PS3 version.
____________________________
MUTED
#11 Sep 10 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Default
SolidMack wrote:
TC while I agree with what you said I just wanna correct you on this:

Quote:
SE tried to make sense of this somehow by adding a 'multiple hit' attack to gladiator, to make them feel as if their one hander is any faster than a two hander (same w/ pugilist). but thats a band-aid on the reality that there is no speed stat.


The "multiple hit" doesn't apply to one or two classes - its an animation for critical hits across all (melee?) classes.

I don't think the system is exactly ready for prime time, I can't wait 'til this game is polished to a sheen - until then we wont know what its meant to play like...I don't know why SE is rushing release. On one hand I can't wait 'til the 22nd and on the other hand I wish they would just delay it and release with the PS3 version.

Uh no sorry, pugilists attack either 2 or 4 times depending on attack used, and gladiators light strike attacks twice. I'm not speaking about criticals, which are just animations with multiple hits, but still one damage value.
Gladiators and pugilists attack multiple times, and the damage applies multiple times.

back on topic.
'yes' i suppose, it isn't very 'ready', im just hoping SE can balance it as time goes on
____________________________
Requested self-ban from admin. Later guys, good luck
#12 Sep 10 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
DirectorCobbs wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
TC while I agree with what you said I just wanna correct you on this:

Quote:
SE tried to make sense of this somehow by adding a 'multiple hit' attack to gladiator, to make them feel as if their one hander is any faster than a two hander (same w/ pugilist). but thats a band-aid on the reality that there is no speed stat.


The "multiple hit" doesn't apply to one or two classes - its an animation for critical hits across all (melee?) classes.

I don't think the system is exactly ready for prime time, I can't wait 'til this game is polished to a sheen - until then we wont know what its meant to play like...I don't know why SE is rushing release. On one hand I can't wait 'til the 22nd and on the other hand I wish they would just delay it and release with the PS3 version.

Uh no sorry, pugilists attack either 2 or 4 times depending on attack used, and gladiators light strike attacks twice. I'm not speaking about criticals, which are just animations with multiple hits, but still one damage value.
Gladiators and pugilists attack multiple times, and the damage applies multiple times.

back on topic.
'yes' i suppose, it isn't very 'ready', im just hoping SE can balance it as time goes on


An animation is an animation. It's showing you an animation hitting <x> number of times and showing the damage for one attack. And the damage for that "multi-attack" is typically less than the single attack from a 2h weapon class. So rather than complicate things, let's keep it simple and distinguish between an animation and the actual mechanics. Each time a gladiator or pugilist hits the button for their basic attack, the system reports one hit for <x> damage (assuming it hits at all). Not multiple hits for a total of <x> damage, not multiple hits for wee little snippets of damage each. One value.

There doesn't need to be a speed stat. Combat isn't paced on a set delay, it's paced around the stamina/TP/MP gauges. All SE needs to do if they want to alter the pace for specific weapons is to apply a global stamina modifier so that certain weapons/weapon typs use inherently more stamina than others. Problem solved. Wouldn't take much, could be easily adjusted down the line, and still leaves you the freedom to control to at least some extent how you want to pace the fight. It's one of the most substantial benefits to a stamina based system the likes of which SE has gone with this time around.
#13 Sep 10 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
That's my point. I never said they have to ADD a speed stat, I said SE has to do some tweaking with the stamina costs simply because theres no other way to implement weapon pacing. ;\ So why are you arguing with me? If you read my posts you'd have no reason to bring up the stuff you're bringing up.
Why don't you just read what I and others have said and say "I agree"

And you're missing the point about why i brought up multihit attacks. Which is why i constantly put up disclaimers, or simply say "this isnt the point of the thread so dont derail".

multihits, if 2 attacks, are often 1/2 the damage of a normal 1-hitter from another class. this is common sense. mnk in ffxi was like this. I was simply saying implementing this multi-hitting attacks was SE's way of giving weapons a 'sense of speed' so daggers don't feel and attack as slowly as an axe, for example.

If I gotta say it, i'll say it: if you dont get what im saying, dont make me explain because it makes perfect sense. I sound like an *** but Im the type of person who has to help people when they act confused or mislead. So if you dont understand what im saying, im gonna have to explain it again, which is tiring. So just drop the topic about multihits if you dont get the reason it was a part of my opening argument in the OP. k? :)
/assiness

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 12:07am by DirectorCobbs
____________________________
Requested self-ban from admin. Later guys, good luck
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 17 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (17)