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Is something like Paladin possible?Follow

#1 Sep 12 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's great how you can build classes as you please and by late game there is much diversity with how you set your skills. Anyway, I was wondering if it's possible to build a Paladin-type class. The spells and abilities all seem to be there, but I'm concerned about how to replenish my MP when I need to. I've only glanced over the spells and abilities each class get a few times, but I'm not sure what to give the character to give it what it needs. So is it possible or is this just WAR/WHM all over again?
#2 Sep 12 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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you can be a tp-based paladin if you mix marauder + pugalist and possibly some cure spells.
#3 Sep 12 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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You can also use healing spells from the magic classes as well, they will just be weaker.
#4 Sep 12 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't tried it, so cannot speak from experience, but as well as cure, a Paladin could use the Second Wind ability from Pugilist and the Bloodbath ability from Marauder.

They will help although probably not give enough healing power compared to a FFXI Paladin.

Using the abilities from DoM that regain MP through damaging the enemy (e.g.Radiance) may help, although I don;t know how much MP you regain.

This is something I would like to try out.

Ooh, and Stygian Spikes, that would help too.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 4:29pm by scotchio
#5 Sep 12 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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It should be possible. Like any other tanker type class in MMOs, using a shield is a must. You can learn abilities such as Guard, Shield Bash, Outmaneuver, and War Drum. You'll most likely need MRD's Bloodbath, PUG's Second Wind, and CON's Cure. High Vit, lots of MND, and a some DEX so you can earn TP faster and use Blootbath + Weaponskill. I think that right there is a basic format of a pure tanker in FFXIV
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#6 Sep 12 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Its possible, but I don't think it looks all that good. Using too many off-job abilities and gimped magic spells. It'll end up being like War/WHM, too forced and not playing to strengths.
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#7 Sep 12 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm playing around with a MAR/THM setup right now in beta, and it seems alright so far. I'm at MAR 5/THM 6, I have MAR as main right now with Trunksplitter, Poison, and Sacrifice for skills. Poison has the same cooldown as on THM and seems to deal about the same damage(though it's so low it's hard to tell, and it doesn't show you Poison's damage in the chat box). Sacrifice seems to be taking a 50% hit to it's heal amount, for soloing the low levels though it works well to reduce downtime. I don't see it being very useful on another class for anything other than that at this point though. I need to compare it at higher levels though, as the amounts healed will be greater on both ends, maybe it will end up being decent.
#8DirectorCobbs, Posted: Sep 12 2010 at 3:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post)
#9 Sep 12 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
With the cooldowns in place on BLoodbath and Second Wind, those abilities equipped on a Gladiator will not make the Gladiator anywhere near on par with a Paladin from XI. And with an MP cost of 12 for Cure and no early level regen-like abilities, you won't see too many Gladiators using Cure as a threat mechanism in day to day grinding. (For guildleves maybe, since you get HP/MP restored whenever you finish a level and use the aetheryte to return to camp). It's hard to say what we can expect down the line. The tools are there, it's just a question of whether or not the mechanics make them viable.
#10 Sep 12 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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IMO you have all the tools to make a Paladin, or even something better - depending on your stat distribution you can build an MP heavy ("heavier") build with majority in vitality and a fair amount in strength and dexterity. You'll be borrowing a lot from conjurer and perhaps certain weapon skills that recover MP. On top of that we have taunt and provoke (are they cross-class? if they are...) which would both come in handy on a Paladin build. Lastly armor and its affects on your build. I don't think we know nearly enough yet but on a glance it seems viable and very possible, I plan on doing it to start off.
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#11 Sep 12 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Default
Everything you mentioned is war/whm by definition.
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#12 Sep 12 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
SolidMack wrote:
IMO you have all the tools to make a Paladin, or even something better - depending on your stat distribution you can build an MP heavy ("heavier") build with majority in vitality and a fair amount in strength and dexterity. You'll be borrowing a lot from conjurer and perhaps certain weapon skills that recover MP. On top of that we have taunt and provoke (are they cross-class? if they are...) which would both come in handy on a Paladin build. Lastly armor and its affects on your build. I don't think we know nearly enough yet but on a glance it seems viable and very possible, I plan on doing it to start off.


Taunt and Provoke are both cross-class, yes. Provoke is a Gladiator ability :P They don't look to be intended for use the way they were used in XI, however.
#13 Sep 12 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
DirectorCobbs wrote:
Everything you mentioned is war/whm by definition.


So was PLD.
#14 Sep 12 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Default
No, it really wasnt. ;\
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#15 Sep 12 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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DirectorCobbs wrote:
Everything you mentioned is war/whm by definition.


Correct me if i'm wrong, because I never played Paladin in FFXI, but for the most part it was a WAR/WHM wasn't it? apart from certain specific abilities that made it unique and a good enmity booster (such as flash? I don't remember exactly) - for all we know there are abilities in there that have some enmity boosting abilities which would be useful in a build like this...anyone scan the abilities database and see if there is any?

Quote:
No, it really wasnt. ;\


Well then explain why instead of leaving us with one liners.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 6:10pm by SolidMack
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#16 Sep 12 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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yeah, my suggestion is to look at what works well in this game, and not to take ideas from previous games and try and force them because they were a sucessful archetype. GLD with stoneskin, Cure/sacrifice/second wind could be awesome, or it could be a total MP drain and force you to drop too many GLD abilities.



ADDED:

Quote:
Correct me if i'm wrong, because I never played Paladin in FFXI, but for the most part it was a WAR/WHM wasn't it? apart from certain specific abilities that made it unique and a good enmity booster (such as flash? I don't remember exactly) - for all we know there are abilities in there that have some enmity boosting abilities which would be useful in a build like this...anyone scan the abilities database and see if there is any?


it looked the same sure, but it never really worked as well. magic skills were gimped, MP pool was tiny. Its fairly hard to say why it didn't work other than it didn't. There wern't alot of successful War/WHM parties. PLD was designed as a package deal, that was better than the sum of its parts so to speak.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 6:15pm by KujaKoF
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#17 Sep 12 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
KujaKoF wrote:
yeah, my suggestion is to look at what works well in this game, and not to take ideas from previous games and try and force them because they were a sucessful archetype. GLD with stoneskin, Cure/sacrifice/second wind could be awesome, or it could be a total MP drain and force you to drop too many GLD abilities.


I can tell you from experience that abilities like Second Wind and Bloodbath are primarily solo tools to reduce downtime and/or squeeze through a fight that would have otherwise resulted in a KO. The cooldowns are just too long and the healing done is too little.
#18 Sep 12 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
Paladin:

PLD had gear that helped out his vit+magic focus. Unless there's plate in FFXIV that gives you bonuses to what a PLD had bonuses to, you'll be stuck mix-and-matching like war/whms did.
Had a natural vit/magic affinity due to PLD being his main (thus his vit+magic stats scaled very well).
He had cure spells and such that were potent enough to be useful, but didn't have to sacrifice vitality or accuracy to attain that for the most part.
He had a natural MP bonus with his main class (PLD) and didnt have to rely on his subclass to have an MP pool.
Had very good defensive abilities, and could 'turtle' style by using them + cures.
etc etc

War/Whm:

War/Whm had warrior gear and used magic accessories to try and make his subclass spells useful, but they weren't.
Depended on whm subclass to get an MP pool, which wasn't enough for anything.
Didn't have magic stats, because his main is WAR (thus his stats scaled poorly for the vit+magic fighting style he wanted). Depended on whm subclass to give him magic stats, which scaled poorly because its only a subjob.
Didn't have the defensive abilities PLD had, obviously.
Could not fight 'turtle' style as a true tank.
etc etc other obvious stuff


Gladiator/Magic

GLD/magic will be the same as war/whm in many ways.
However, he'll be similar to PLD due to the defensive abilities, so he'll be able to tank damage decently by default.
However, GEAR is an issue, because he'll be using normal gladiator gear, which isn't a mix of vit+magic like PLD gear. He'll have to do what war/whm did for gear - mix and match magic accessories, which is where the GLD/magic build starts to go downhill.

GLD/magic will not have an MP rejuv move (unlike conj and thaum), and cannot rest for MP. Will have to use items constantly or depend on crystals.
Will have to split stats between vit and int, as well as mnd due to MP pools being very important, as well as PIE for the spells to land, and so forth. This sacrifices his damage and accuracy, which will hurt his ability to hold hate and actually fight.

GLD/magic has no primary magic abilities. Has to depend on subclass magic abilities. These abilities are not nearly as effective as subclass abilities:
For example:
stoneskin doesnt last past 2 attacks, second wind and bloodbath are much less effective and only suitable for soloing due to cooldown, cure heals less and has a longer cooldown, drains do half as much and last less, debuffs land less often and last shortly, you lose aoe ability as a glad (thus must depend on the targeting system in big fights).
etc

PLD did not have to sacrifice defense for magic - the game supported his tank+magic fighting style with gear, abilities, great stats, and so forth.
Stat allocating can only go so far - you cannot make up for the huge bonuses paladin-like gear has in helping you be a tank+magic build. That's why paladin was so good at what he did.


Edited, Sep 12th 2010 6:37pm by DirectorCobbs
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#19 Sep 12 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I can tell you from experience that abilities like Second Wind and Bloodbath are primarily solo tools to reduce downtime and/or squeeze through a fight that would have otherwise resulted in a KO. The cooldowns are just too long and the healing done is too little.


We will have to see. If MAR can tank with provoke or taunt on, they have pretty high HP, then using Bloodbath could work well. When used on MAR it recovers about 70% of the damage dealt in health. If not as a main tank it could be useful for sub-tanking with MAR for short periods of time while the main gets healed up.
#20 Sep 12 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I have built what I'm calling a Paladin.
Here's my build:
Base Class: Gladiator/Sentinel (Sword & Shield) Current Ranks 10/4
Abilities (16/16)
Light Slash GLA Rank 1 (0 AP)
Light Stab GLA Rank 1 (0 AP)
Guard SEN Rank 1 (0 AP)
Phalanx GLA Rank ? (3 AP)
Rampart GLA Rank ? (3 AP)
Provoke GLA Rank 10 (3 AP)
Second Wind PUG Rank 6 (3 AP)
Cure CON Rank 4 (2 AP)
Sacrifice THM Rank 4 (2 AP)

I'll replace either Cure or Sacrifice with a 3 point ability at rank 11, depending how many ability points I get.
I'm leaning toward Defender which is a MAR skill, but I don't recall the Rank.
#21 Sep 12 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
You have to use common sense man. When you've got a mob attacking you for 100-150 per hit (plus TP attacks that do a ton), healing for 100~ (or even 200 or 300) every minute won't let you tank, it will just let you stay alive on soloable mobs who do 50-100 damage per attack.
I'm using damage numbers as an example. You could change those numbers around a ton and my point would still stand. This is why healers in every mmo have been needed in party environments. Just because meleers can now heal themselves every minute doesn't mean a healer is not needed when fighting TOUGH mobs in a PARTY environment. Get what I'm saying?

The DoW healing moves are yes, primarily for soloing or duoing, easing the pressure of curing from your mage, and making sure the DD classes can cure themselves in between jabs or when they've fighting trash mobs on their own.
etc, I don't want to go into too much detail and get in a rant. :) I personally LOVE the curing abilities on the DoWs. I just don't choose to dress them up as a mage's cure-type spells, because they do not nearly serve that purpose when fighting challenging mobs.
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#22 Sep 12 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Unless there's plate in FFXIV that gives you bonuses to what a PLD had bonuses to, you'll be stuck mix-and-matching like war/whms did.


The entire premise of the game is mixing and matching, I don't think anyone has a problem here...also note that you have complete control of your stat pool this time around - whereas in FFXI a Paladin naturally had higher vitality and magic potency, you can emulate that and even do it better in FFXIV as far as I can tell.

Quote:
Had a natural vit/magic affinity due to PLD being his main (thus his vit+magic stats scaled very well).


See above..

Quote:
He had cure spells and such that were potent enough to be useful, but didn't have to sacrifice vitality or accuracy to attain that for the most part.


There are abilities in FFXIV which you buy using guild marks (as I'm sure you may have seen those already) - I have seen certain abilities that replace stats or boost certain stats for a short period of time (i.e., boost your magic potency for the next buff, etc.). These can be worked with in this case to, once again, emulate what FFXI's Paladin naturally had and maybe even do it better.

Quote:
He had a natural MP bonus with his main class (PLD) and didnt have to rely on his subclass to have an MP pool.


This is all dependent on stat distribution once again, and once again there is nothing to indicate we can't achieve this.

Quote:
Had very good defensive abilities, and could 'turtle' style by using them + cures.


Whose to say we don't have those at our disposal? if anything Sentinel, using shield, is a good aid in tanking and can come in very hand in a Paladin type build.

Quote:
You have to use common sense man. When you've got a mob attacking you for 100-150 per hit (plus TP attacks that do a ton), healing for 100~ (or even 200 or 300) every minute won't let you tank, it will just let you stay alive on soloable mobs who do 50-100 damage per attack.


You need to use common sense and notice that the way you play in beta is probably not reflective of how you'll play in the retail game, especially in a party setting where armor, weapon choice, abilities and consumables play a larger role and the 100-150 damage has suddenly dwindled down to 30-40 damage which in turn is allowing you to tank just fine. Now you're argument is saying you can't even tank effectively in FFXIV, which I doubt SE overlooked.


Edited, Sep 12th 2010 6:57pm by SolidMack
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#23 Sep 12 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

We will have to see. If MAR can tank with provoke or taunt on, they have pretty high HP, then using Bloodbath could work well. When used on MAR it recovers about 70% of the damage dealt in health. If not as a main tank it could be useful for sub-tanking with MAR for short periods of time while the main gets healed up.


If you're partying, the odds are that the mob is hitting alot harder than players are. If a 60 second cooldown ability doesn't even offset the damage from 1 attack, its pretty weak, the "parry 1 attack" ability is better.
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#24 Sep 12 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
Yes it is possible. Yes, it can be effective.

First of all, I would focus on Strength, Dex and Mind (MP pool) as my main three stats with Vit (HP pool) close behind. Intelligence and Piety will be the lesser stats but cannot be ignored completely.

That said - no one should EVER ignore any stat completely if they don't want to suck.

As for equipped abilities - I would go with Cure (2 AP) and Sacrifice (2 AP) at lower levels - forget second wind since it costs 3 AP, has a long cooldown and uses TP you can prolly use to deal damage.

When you have more AP to play with and more jobs leveled up - you are probably going to want taunt, and punishing barbs - and you may want to consider adding either damnation or radiance - the THM and CON weapon skills which return MP. Later on you may also consider Stygian Spikes which gives you MP when an enemy slams into you - but since that is THM 16 you'll probably have to wait to play with that.

My advice to someone who wants to play a build like this would be to level up THM to at least 4 and Con to at least 4 to get the two healing abilities. Don't worry about shockspikes or stoneskin when you are in a party - just invite a conjurer who can AOE them better. If you are soloing - then of course, have at er.

Realistically if you want to play GLD like this you might as well just hold off on leveling it till you have a decent suite of skills from the other classes already leveled.
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#25 Sep 12 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
DirectorCobbs wrote:
Paladin:

PLD had gear that helped out his vit+magic focus. Unless there's plate in FFXIV that gives you bonuses to what a PLD had bonuses to, you'll be stuck mix-and-matching like war/whms did.
Had a natural vit/magic affinity due to PLD being his main (thus his vit+magic stats scaled very well).
He had cure spells and such that were potent enough to be useful, but didn't have to sacrifice vitality or accuracy to attain that for the most part.
He had a natural MP bonus with his main class (PLD) and didnt have to rely on his subclass to have an MP pool.
Had very good defensive abilities, and could 'turtle' style by using them + cures.
etc etc

War/Whm:

War/Whm had warrior gear and used magic accessories to try and make his subclass spells useful, but they weren't.
Depended on whm subclass to get an MP pool, which wasn't enough for anything.
Didn't have magic stats, because his main is WAR (thus his stats scaled poorly for the vit+magic fighting style he wanted). Depended on whm subclass to give him magic stats, which scaled poorly because its only a subjob.
Didn't have the defensive abilities PLD had, obviously.
Could not fight 'turtle' style as a true tank.
etc etc other obvious stuff


I don't disagree with all of what you wrote, but I do disagree with pretty much everything you wrote about gear. So far as we're seeing up to this point, gear is much more open ended. We have, at this time, no reason to believe that a Gladiator won't be able to get their hands on gear that could augment the magic aspects of their abilities if that's the route they wanted to go down. As well, fully customizable stat allocations mean that if the majority of heavy armor is suited towards melee damage type classes (ie. mostly Str/Dex and little Piety/Mind/Int), then you could adjust your stats at the base level to compensate.

The only issue surrounding the viability of a Gladiator gone PLD is what the abilities he/she would have to borrow from other classes will lose in the translation.

Also, and not directed at you but not worth making a second post about, please, for the love of Pete, can we stop talking about Provoke and Taunt like they work identically to Provoke in XI? Provoke in XI was a mainstay tanking ability used to generate enmity, to the point where if someone spiked a huge amount of threat in a short period of time and a mob ran after them, there were lots of times when Provoke would not pull that mob back. Look at their descriptions for XIV:

Quote:
Lv10 - Provoke
Gesture threateningly, increasing enmity and temporarily focusing the target's attacks on you.
Cast time 0
Recast time 20


Quote:
Lv10 - Taunt
Whistle jeeringly, increasing enmity and temporarily focusing the target's attacks on you.
Cast time 0
Recast time 20


Those do not read like abilities you want tanks using every time they're off cooldown as a function of habit. Those read like abilities a tank would use to get a mob back under control that has veered off after another party member. Tanks already get lots of enmity generating options even early in the game and I can assure you, it's only going to be a matter of time before party members start getting a little irritated that they keep dying to strays because your emergency cooldowns are always...on cooldown.

I'm not saying don't use them for threat, I'm suggesting that we stop referring to them exclusively in the sense of how Provoke was used in XI. Not the same game, not the same function.
#26 Sep 12 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
Unless there's plate in FFXIV that gives you bonuses to what a PLD had bonuses to, you'll be stuck mix-and-matching like war/whms did.


The entire premise of the game is mixing and matching, I don't think anyone has a problem here...also note that you have complete control of your stat pool this time around - whereas in FFXI a Paladin naturally had higher vitality and magic potency, you can emulate that and even do it better in FFXIV as far as I can tell.

Quote:
Had a natural vit/magic affinity due to PLD being his main (thus his vit+magic stats scaled very well).


See above..

Quote:
He had cure spells and such that were potent enough to be useful, but didn't have to sacrifice vitality or accuracy to attain that for the most part.


There are abilities in FFXIV which you buy using guild marks (as I'm sure you may have seen those already) - I have seen certain abilities that replace stats or boost certain stats for a short period of time (i.e., boost your magic potency for the next buff, etc.). These can be worked with in this case to, once again, emulate what FFXI's Paladin naturally had and maybe even do it better.

Quote:
He had a natural MP bonus with his main class (PLD) and didnt have to rely on his subclass to have an MP pool.


This is all dependent on stat distribution once again, and once again there is nothing to indicate we can't achieve this.

Quote:
Had very good defensive abilities, and could 'turtle' style by using them + cures.


Whose to say we don't have those at our disposal? if anything Sentinel, using shield, is a good aid in tanking and can come in very hand in a Paladin type build.

Quote:
You have to use common sense man. When you've got a mob attacking you for 100-150 per hit (plus TP attacks that do a ton), healing for 100~ (or even 200 or 300) every minute won't let you tank, it will just let you stay alive on soloable mobs who do 50-100 damage per attack.


You need to use common sense and notice that the way you play in beta is probably not reflective of how you'll play in the retail game, especially in a party setting where armor, weapon choice, abilities and consumables play a larger role and the 100-150 damage has suddenly dwindled down to 30-40 damage which in turn is allowing you to tank just fine. Now you're argument is saying you can't even tank effectively in FFXIV, which I doubt SE overlooked.


Edited, Sep 12th 2010 6:57pm by SolidMack


I've touched upon all of this in my post. Reread it if you want to read what I say about stat distribution in FFXIV.
Hint: 'gear'. you didnt mention it in your rebuttal, so I won't bother to continue this.

Also, people are building their 'gladiator/magic' builds based on how the beta works (where, for the first 10 ranks, second wind and cure as secondary abilities are potent). Address these people as well if you want to appear unbiased.
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#27 Sep 12 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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DirectorCobbs wrote:
I've touched upon all of this in my post. Reread it if you want to read what I say about stat distribution in FFXIV.
Hint: 'gear'. you didnt mention it in your rebuttal, so I won't bother to continue this.


K, I didn't think I needed to mention gear as it was fairly obvious - but since you want me to...

Quote:
However, GEAR is an issue, because he'll be using normal gladiator gear, which isn't a mix of vit+magic like PLD gear.


...what makes you think this? so far in beta you can equip any and all armor, I don't think this is going to change so there is still versatility in that regard - If anything we don't know nearly enough on gear yet to make an assumption either way but I'd say there's a good chance that the options are there for a paladin type build.
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#28 Sep 12 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just curious why we don't see more "what makes the best gladiator" type threads, and less "can mold gladiator to fit into the PLD style cookie cutter, and will that be good".
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#29 Sep 12 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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One thing no one's mentioning, the guild mark rewards. Now, it's speculation but I think it's pretty valid...The ones that say "Conjurer Action Affinity + 10"(Maximum 100)there's some for each class...if you find yourself wanting a paladin...you add some of this to gladiator and those conjurer abilities should be more affective & with less cooldown...

Or a marauder +conjurer(or thaumaturge, maybe both) and you have yourself a dark knight...those are just a couple of the basic examples but all kinds of possibilities are there

As for the speculation...I can't think of anything else for what "Action Affinity" would mean so I think it's right, but people aren't getting that far yet so it's hard to say...


Also to those trying to make paladin builds, if you cross some magic from thaumaturge & conjurer, try equipping it to the off hand...the shields have better magic stats...

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 7:22pm by TwistedOwl
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#30 Sep 12 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
Quote:

...what makes you think this? so far in beta you can equip any and all armor, I don't think this is going to change so there is still versatility in that regard - If anything we don't know nearly enough on gear yet to make an assumption either way but I'd say there's a good chance that the options are there for a paladin type build.

Keep in mind I sound like a **** in words but I'm really not trying to be one. Anyways, here's my response:

So let me get this straight,

You guys are right because you're 'guessing' paladin-like gear will exist at higher levels.

And I'm wrong because I'm guessing that paladin-like gear won't exist without a paladin-like class.

See the difference? You think your guess is better than my guess. That's all this argument is about, and it's silly, but I will tell you why your 'guess' makes less sense than my 'guess'.

Your guess is completely out of whim, because you all want a paladin to be possible. This is understandable, but doesn't work when trying to convince others.

My guess is educated because, without sounding like a ****, my experiences with the mmo FFXIV's team worked on before this lead me to this logical conclusion: they will release certain types of gear when they release the class that suits that type of gear.

So, once a magic+melee class is released, that's when we'll see magic+melee gear float around. Until then, I doubt you'll see such gear because no class really fits the magic+melee characterization yet. And SE loves building characterized classes with gear and abilities that suit those classes.

I think that makes sense. I understand where you guys are coming from, but I'm not crossing my fingers. They're far apart, actually.

edit: added quote

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 7:18pm by DirectorCobbs
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#31 Sep 12 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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one thing im scared of is that there will be only one optimum combo to tank with while some other MMOs (sorry have to use wow since they have several tank classes), so essentially this game will only have one real "tank" , seeing the saaaame abilities over and over and over.

i thought only having a NIN and PLD as tanks was limiting enough...
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#32 Sep 12 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:
one thing im scared of is that there will be only one optimum combo to tank with while some other MMOs (sorry have to use wow since they have several tank classes), so essentially this game will only have one real "tank" , seeing the saaaame abilities over and over and over.

i thought only having a NIN and PLD as tanks was limiting enough...


Might be able to customize pugilist into an evade tank
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#33 Sep 12 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
Evade tanks aren't based on evasion, funnily enough, they're based on abilities like "mirage" and "blink" and other abilities that let them avoid damage altogether. You can't depend on a % chance to dodge when it comes to tanking, because power moves from enemies will most certainly kill you (as damage-avoiding tanks have low defense and HP compared to damage-sponge tanks).
Pug and Marauder are built moreso to combine their forces as tanks, as they can't take damage very well at all. Evasion is more of a dd feature of Pugilist, because tehy have very powerful moves they can use after evades. Same goes for Marauder and parries.


Quote:
Might be able to customize pugilist into an evade tank

By using the pugilist's own evasion moves?



Edited, Sep 12th 2010 7:58pm by DirectorCobbs
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#34 Sep 12 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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DirectorCobbs wrote:
Evade tanks aren't based on evasion, funnily enough, they're based on abilities like "mirage" and "blink" and other abilities that let them avoid damage altogether. You can't depend on a % chance to dodge when it comes to tanking, because power moves from enemies will most certainly kill you (as damage-avoiding tanks have low defense and HP compared to damage-sponge tanks).
Pug and Marauder are built moreso to combine their forces as tanks, as they can't take damage very well at all. Evasion is more of a dd feature of Pugilist, because tehy have very powerful moves they can use after evades. Same goes for Marauder and parries.


Quote:
Might be able to customize pugilist into an evade tank

By using the pugilist's own evasion moves?



Edited, Sep 12th 2010 7:58pm by DirectorCobbs


I don't know if anyone's gone full-blown EVA+ gear & abilities yet to try it much, so I leave it at maybe...

Most groups right now aren't efficient and planned like we're used to in XI anyway, so it seems to be more about bouncing hate around and everyone having survival stats & abilities if they take the hate. Then they can promptly run away out of aoe range when the mages try to cure = P Stop doing that people!

From my experience, I can solo some pretty heavy stuff with conjurer + shield and buffs, I've built mine more for soloing so in some groups I've tanked as conjurer just fine. Using the term "tank" loosely there because it was sporadic, but definitely not the "Oh no the mage took hate, he's dead!" stuff from XI.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 8:32pm by TwistedOwl
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#35 Sep 12 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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A bit late on the thread but I feel it's necessary to add a few things.

WAR/WHM in FFXI was a failed experiment, because it works on a wrong premise: "give curing spells to a damage dealer class to keep it alive", it doesn't work because a WAR/anyDD can hold hate very well based solely on damage, but it becomes an mp sink, people thought that snapping some self-curing into the formula will mitigate the problem, but unfortunately it only gimped WAR's damage and the job never had enough defense to maintain itself with the scarce mp pool from /WHM.

PLD on the other hand is (and become even more with the years and upgrades) a DEFENSE juggernaut able to withstand punishment and threats like no other job in the game, unlike WAR that seek cures to keep himself alive PLD uses cures as a means of Enmity generation, and the job can actually succeed doing it because its ratio of emity loss against enmity generation by using cures is efficient, moreover PLD had other means of enmity generation/damage mitigation, for instance you can use a support job which further enhance your enmity generation abilities (RDM) or your survivability (NIN, RDM)

But enough of FFXI, now addressing the OP, I think making a PLD scheme job it's actually very doable, because Gladiator seems to be a defensive job, and we can actually add curing spells without losing much, at this moment my gladiator (rank 16) has full time equipped cure spell, I'd say it works pretty well and mp is really no issue since you can cast 25-30 cures before depleting it, which takes far longer than 10 minutes. We have had to camp close to an Aetherlyte but I bet that will be the issue for any non mage class seeking to use any spells, which at this point seems to be the best idea (it's either that or waste your mp pool)

I'd say the game it's still on pampers, it's almost impossible to tell at this point which the tanking classes will be or how will they work, just look at FFXI until few months ago RDM (a mage!!) was the second best tank for EndGame, the rules are hardly set on the stone, but it's hard to define anything at this moment.

Thank you for reading.

Ken
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#36 Sep 12 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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i was wondering about a more def vit build like using defender from mrd and taunt from pug as a oh crap voke maybe bloodbath i don't if we have bpe in this game but i wonder if you got your block and def high enough you wouldnt need self cures as much and what role if any yet the elemental res do
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#37 Sep 13 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Is it possible for a tank to hold aggro vs. a THM? I can pull aggro after 4 moves of the tank, including a taunt. I did it today, and it shocked me. Actually I did it a few times, hence why I died a few times :/

was rank THM 6 and 9 Phys. with a PUG 12 and a MAR 13

I would see a taunt on the screen, then I would cast sacrifice. And the moment my target got healed, the mob would turn around, take 2 steps, cast/hit me and turn around, take 2 steps back and go back on the tank.
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#38 Sep 13 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
I'm confused why SE started from scratch regarding the hate and party system. FFXI had a complex hate system which was easy to grasp and control. SE seems to be starting everything from square 1, like it's their first MMO. Anybody know why?

I mean, youd think that after balancing a game for 8 years, they'd know how this stuff should work. Why do we have to ask for such simple fixes.
And people wonder why we bring stuff like this up. It's because we know we'll have to wait months for basic fixes for basic functions that should already be implemented.
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#39 Sep 13 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Excellent
DirectorCobbs wrote:
And I'm wrong because I'm guessing that paladin-like gear won't exist without a paladin-like class.

See the difference? You think your guess is better than my guess. That's all this argument is about, and it's silly, but I will tell you why your 'guess' makes less sense than my 'guess'.

Your guess is completely out of whim, because you all want a paladin to be possible. This is understandable, but doesn't work when trying to convince others.

My guess is educated because, without sounding like a ****, my experiences with the mmo FFXIV's team worked on before this lead me to this logical conclusion: they will release certain types of gear when they release the class that suits that type of gear.


Your argument makes sense...in the context of FFXI. It doesn't make sense on the context of XIV for two reasons:

1) SE designed the class system to be extremely flexible. They know people are going to be equipping magic abilities on physical classes and vice-versa, and...
2) They know that many players are going to want to use this flexibility to mold their characters around class/job archetypes from previous FF titles.

We don't need a paladin class to be added to XIV because all the tools necessary to make a paladin class are already in the game. And with guild traits allowing us to increase their effectiveness from subjob-like levels to full potency from the looks of things, the extent to which you'll be able to hybridize your character and mold it into those other archetypes will be limited strictly by how many ability points you have to equip those traits on your character. SE knows all of this. That's exactly why they designed the system the way that they did. You can't compare XI mechanics to XIV and use that as the basis for overemphasizing the importance of having the right gear in the game in order to play a particular class a certain way.
#40 Sep 13 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
DirectorCobbs wrote:
I'm confused why SE started from scratch regarding the hate and party system. FFXI had a complex hate system which was easy to grasp and control. SE seems to be starting everything from square 1, like it's their first MMO. Anybody know why?

I mean, youd think that after balancing a game for 8 years, they'd know how this stuff should work. Why do we have to ask for such simple fixes.
And people wonder why we bring stuff like this up. It's because we know we'll have to wait months for basic fixes for basic functions that should already be implemented.


We can't start criticizing SE for a "broken" enmity system until the players themselves get their heads out of their asses and start organizing themselves into coordinated teams instead of gangs of individualists.
#41 Sep 13 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'd say the game it's still on pampers, it's almost impossible to tell at this point which the tanking classes will be or how will they work, just look at FFXI until few months ago RDM (a mage!!) was the second best tank for EndGame, the rules are hardly set on the stone, but it's hard to define anything at this moment.


I agree with this.

Even Ninja wasn't really recognized as an "official tank" by SE until very late.

I think the amount of class combinations and gear are going to lead to some very interesting discussions for the next couple of years.

I just hope that same complexity can be rationalized and compartmentalized so we eventually do have some sort of consensus.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 2:47am by Kierk

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 2:47am by Kierk
#42 Sep 13 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
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I don't care about curing myself to increase my survivability, I have a healer to do that. All I care about as far as healing magic goes is how much enmity I can generate by curing people, whether it's worth 3 AP for the spell, and whether I can regenerate enough MP to make it viable. There's almost no limitation to sticking Cure on a Gladiator; you don't have to run around with a bunch of worthless magic stats and you aren't missing out on other abilities from better subs. It's certainly not as bad as WAR/WHM.

Bottom line: if it turns out healing magic generates crazy enmity, you bet your *** I'm grabbing it.
#43 Sep 13 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
Past 3 posts have very good points.

However, I don't think you could say something like "We dont need samurai, because Lancer already had tp-gaining moves". That's like saying we dont need ninja because we'e got pugilist and so forth. AT least I hope that's not the case.

I think SE will be bringing us advanced jobs that bring more options to the table and a more refined way of doing things than the current handful of classes. As they all are now, they're generic in their utilization (apart from gladiator who has effective defense moves, unlike everyone else). The mages are also stretching far regarding their spells - they're both more versatile than rdm was in XI, for example.

I'm just worried about balance, basically, since SE hasn't proven themselves to have the communication and swiftness required to balance MMO systems in timely and thorough manners.

But I'm getting to personal with this argument at this point, with my personal hopes getting in the way, so I'll cut it off here.
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#44 Sep 13 2010 at 1:05 AM Rating: Decent
DirectorCobbs wrote:
Past 3 posts have very good points.

However, I don't think you could say something like "We dont need samurai, because Lancer already had tp-gaining moves". That's like saying we dont need ninja because we'e got pugilist and so forth. AT least I hope that's not the case.

I think SE will be bringing us advanced jobs that bring more options to the table and a more refined way of doing things than the current handful of classes. As they all are now, they're generic in their utilization (apart from gladiator who has effective defense moves, unlike everyone else). The mages are also stretching far regarding their spells - they're both more versatile than rdm was in XI, for example.

I'm just worried about balance, basically, since SE hasn't proven themselves to have the communication and swiftness required to balance MMO systems in timely and thorough manners.

But I'm getting to personal with this argument at this point, with my personal hopes getting in the way, so I'll cut it off here.


I'm sure that SE could bring a lot of extra, fun abilities to the table by adding new jobs. ****, even just more variety in weapons is a good reason to do it. At the end of the day, however, they're still just going to be bringing new abilities to the table that operate within the confines of the traditional RPG systems (melee physical offense, range physical offense, physical avoidance, physical mitigation, magic avoidance, magic mitigation, melee magic offense, ranged magic offense, buffing, debuffing, and restoration (cures/raises/debuff removal.) There are only so many unique spins you can put on those things before it just becomes the same ability with a different visual effect.
#45 Sep 13 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
Yup I'm just hoping they didnt spread these jobs too far, with LNC getting most of what samurai unique, along with THF and DNC and so forth. Know what I mean?
This is going offtopic though
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#46 Sep 13 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
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We don't really know what is possible yet. FFXIV doesn't work the same and is not the same as FFXI. Maybe "ability A from class A" + "ability B from class B" equals uber paladin in your eyes. SE has already hinted at not wanting us to consider the classes as jobs like in ffxi, because job refers to having a single role within a game. We are expected to mix things up by creating new classes through the mix and match system and separating from the chained-down job conforming roles.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 3:35am by hungerforce
#47 Sep 13 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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Dintar wrote:
I have built what I'm calling a Paladin.
Here's my build:
Base Class: Gladiator/Sentinel (Sword & Shield) Current Ranks 10/4
Abilities (16/16)
Light Slash GLA Rank 1 (0 AP)
Light Stab GLA Rank 1 (0 AP)
Guard SEN Rank 1 (0 AP)
Phalanx GLA Rank ? (3 AP)
Rampart GLA Rank ? (3 AP)
Provoke GLA Rank 10 (3 AP)
Second Wind PUG Rank 6 (3 AP)
Cure CON Rank 4 (2 AP)
Sacrifice THM Rank 4 (2 AP)

I'll replace either Cure or Sacrifice with a 3 point ability at rank 11, depending how many ability points I get.
I'm leaning toward Defender which is a MAR skill, but I don't recall the Rank.


Cool. This looks like you are headed in the right direction!

Don't forget there are going to be expansions. While many of the traditional Paladin abilities seem to be included in the Gladiator skill-set, I would guess that a further tank type job will appear in the first expansion. Surely some kind of Ninja, and maybe a Holy Knight of some kind.

Thanks to the armory system I think we are going to see a combination of blinking and high VIT for tanks. It's going to be fun to make a super solid badass by picking from your favorite DEF+ and EVA+ abilities.

Thanks for sharing your tank build sir. Looks good to me.

Cheers!
#48 Sep 13 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's entirely to early to make an informed decision on that.
The class system in XIV is totally different from XI, so you shouldn't really try to make a war/whm type paladin.
It took a few years of trial and error before the players hammered out optimal job set-ups in XI, and even then SE would throw us a curveball - new abilities on other jobs, or a nerf- and it would be months before someone made a new optimized set-up. This game hasn't even released yet, so we have no idea, no matter what we may think we've learned from the Beta, about how the job optimization will evolve short or long term.
I'm sure we'll figure out a pally type set-up, it will just take time and experimenting. Trust me, that's going to be fun, most "fun" memories you have from XI are probably the early exploring and adventuring, if you'll forgive my assumptions^^!
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