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#102 Sep 13 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Pontipy wrote:

Maybe im just really old school, but back in the day, when playing just an RPG, you would keep a notebook of things you needed to remember to do or look into or attempt (i.e. chocobo breeding FFVII). I'm sorry that WoW made everything idiot proof, but don't take it out on FFXIV. (seriously they had to make quest & gathering items sparkle so people would know where to collect them)

And you don't have to memorize 400 recipes.... its people that think its work to look things up, that become the worst players in an mmo... and are asking to have the players that are willing to look things up to hold their hand.


Exactly. I miss the good old RPG games where you kept a notebook next to your computer. Now a days video games are as mindless as watching TV. You used to have to think, strategize, and organize yourself to beat RPGs. I actually enjoyed "having to memorize" 400 recipes, or enemy affinities, elemental effects, etc. etc. That was what defined the genre.


I mentioned that in one of the many other threads. Originally I said something like "Some of these complaints sound like some people want the game to be less final fantasy." Still stand behind that 1, but maybe "Sounds like some people want the RPG in MMORPG removed" works better. Many people have their own definitions of what's considered an RPG these days, that's another argument altogether, but to me part of it is the extra work. Figuring out what the heck that ambiguous NPC message meant, maybe paying a little attention to the cutscenes & other info, etc. And now you have a journal updating you on what to do(which is more than I expected). If you get stuck, you'll have the many fansites around to check out.

Maybe that's another case of trying to keep some of the true oldschool rpg feeling while catering to a modern online crowd -shrugs-

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 11:26am by TwistedOwl
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#103 Sep 13 2010 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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What lag? People are complaining about lag but I really have experienced none.
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#104 Sep 13 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
I'm not saying there's two versions.
Ok, but you did say they were going to just scrap the current client. That would require them to do what? Rebuild the client all over again but "good" this time? Switch over to the release client that they've been applying patches to at the same time as the actual test client?

Nyu wrote:
What lag? People are complaining about lag but I really have experienced none.
Do you live across the street from SE's servers in Japan?

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 10:28am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#105 Sep 13 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Nyu wrote:
What lag? People are complaining about lag but I really have experienced none.


The lag is pronounced in cases with underpowered computers. I don't have a problem with lag either but some people won't even consider that the problem could be, at least partially, on their end.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 10:31am by Hydragyrum
#106 Sep 13 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Default
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I am really serious, I have had pretty much zero network lag. Maybe I am lucky. My spells and attacks are cast almost instantly. It has been buttery smooth for me.
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#107 Sep 13 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Nyu wrote:
I am really serious, I have had pretty much zero network lag. Maybe I am lucky. My spells and attacks are cast almost instantly. It has been buttery smooth for me.


I literally don't believe you.
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#108 Sep 13 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't have much lag either. The UI on the other hand though...
#109 Sep 13 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Same here. UI lag, yes. Lag in anything else, no.
#110 Sep 13 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Vackashken wrote:
Nyu wrote:
I am really serious, I have had pretty much zero network lag. Maybe I am lucky. My spells and attacks are cast almost instantly. It has been buttery smooth for me.


I literally don't believe you.


Do you have a friend with a high-end gaming computer that would let you install the beta and try it? I'm not saying the game should have such high hardware requirements, just that it does. Maybe SE will optimize it for PC, maybe they won't. But until you try it on a high end computer, you won't know for sure what it's like.
#111 Sep 13 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Vackashken wrote:
Nyu wrote:
I am really serious, I have had pretty much zero network lag. Maybe I am lucky. My spells and attacks are cast almost instantly. It has been buttery smooth for me.


I literally don't believe you.


Do you have a friend with a high-end gaming computer that would let you install the beta and try it? I'm not saying the game should have such high hardware requirements, just that it does. Maybe SE will optimize it for PC, maybe they won't. But until you try it on a high end computer, you won't know for sure what it's like.


My computer isn't low end by any means. And I don't necessarily means he (or anyone is lying) I am just gob smacked at the idea of this being called buttery smoothness.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 11:41am by Vackashken
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#112 Sep 13 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Nyu wrote:
What lag? People are complaining about lag but I really have experienced none.


The lag is pronounced in cases with underpowered computers. I don't have a problem with lag either but some people won't even consider that the problem could be, at least partially, on their end.
PC specs have nothing to do with internet latency.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#113 Sep 13 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, I should have mentioned my desktop plays this game at 45-60fps at 1920x1080 resolution.

So a lot of this might be due to my desktop (which is only running a single 4890 videocard...)

This doesn't have to do with network lag though, and I haven't experienced any out of the ordinary network lag at all.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 11:46am by Nyu
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#114 Sep 13 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Nyu wrote:
What lag? People are complaining about lag but I really have experienced none.


The lag is pronounced in cases with underpowered computers. I don't have a problem with lag either but some people won't even consider that the problem could be, at least partially, on their end.
PC specs have nothing to do with internet latency.


No, but they do have an effect on game "lag". Most people don't distinguish between latency and framerate and just call the choppy game "laggy" when their hardware is causing the majority of the "lag". With a high end computer, this game is far from laggy. Maybe not buttery smooth, but easily playable and enjoyable.
#115 Sep 13 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Nyu wrote:
This doesn't have to do with network lag though
Welcome to the point? Graphical stutter =/= lag.

I ran way out into the woods where I'm getting ~55 fps now because nobody else is around. Still just as laggy as when I was in Gridania.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 10:55am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#116 Sep 13 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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OP you are 100% correct and despite what some of the die hard FF fans that would buy and defend the game no matter what state its in there are THOUSANDS of people who feel the same as you.

My best friend and I both cancelled our preorders as well. We are big FF fans and played every title since FF7, played FFXI for years.

Ill be keeping close watch as well and if many of the problems are fixed then I will be ready to join in.

Im not expecting anything major to take place until mid-late next year. Other than stability fixes I dont see alot of things happening due to the heavy focus of getting the PS3 version ready for march.
#117 Sep 13 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Welcome to the point? Graphical stutter =/= lag.


Thanks for posting this point yet again then.
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#118 Sep 13 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Nyu wrote:
Quote:
Welcome to the point? Graphical stutter =/= lag.


Thanks for posting this point yet again then.
See the edit. It took time for me to get out and away from most people to the point where my fps would kick way up to near cap.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#119 Sep 13 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
Shneibel wrote:
other than write down a game feed back to make the game better or write down a guide, share class information, there are NO point to say you or any body will cnacel pre-order cos ppl dont give a **** about that serious


I read that 3 times and didn't understand it.
I can't tell either way which side of the conversation you're on... but it's safe to say you played WoW.


And again with the uncalled-for dig at WoW.

You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with the FFXI community at large, with all of it's petulance, arrogance, smugness, and narcissism - none of which is justified by playing what is an easy-mode EverQuest clone, no matter complex and challenging they pretend it is.

That kind of BS may by rate-up fodder in =10, but this is not =10.
#120 Sep 13 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
BastokFL wrote:
ShonaSeraph wrote:
Shneibel wrote:
other than write down a game feed back to make the game better or write down a guide, share class information, there are NO point to say you or any body will cnacel pre-order cos ppl dont give a **** about that serious


I read that 3 times and didn't understand it.
I can't tell either way which side of the conversation you're on... but it's safe to say you played WoW.


And again with the uncalled-for dig at WoW.

You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with the FFXI community at large, with all of it's petulance, arrogance, smugness, and narcissism - none of which is justified by playing what is an easy-mode EverQuest clone, no matter complex and challenging they pretend it is.

That kind of BS may by rate-up fodder in =10, but this is not =10.

Agreed 110%, you'll notice most of my posts recently have to do with defending us against egomaniacs like him who do not know how to be objective and peaceful when discussing things like a videogame
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#121 Sep 13 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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Agreed 110%, you'll notice most of my posts recently have to do with defending us against egomaniacs like him who do not know how to be objective and peaceful when discussing things like a videogame


I read that 3 times, and I have no idea which person you're referring to in the posts XD

You all seem egomaniac-ical...

(no need to point out that I seem to be egomaniac-ical, I already know I am.... /strokes e-Ego)
#122 Sep 13 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Thanks for posting this point yet again then.


Hey! One doesn't just get to 19k posts without the occasional repeat!
#123 Sep 13 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
Pontipy wrote:
Quote:
Agreed 110%, you'll notice most of my posts recently have to do with defending us against egomaniacs like him who do not know how to be objective and peaceful when discussing things like a videogame


I read that 3 times, and I have no idea which person you're referring to in the posts XD

You all seem egomaniac-ical...

(no need to point out that I seem to be egomaniac-ical, I already know I am.... /strokes e-Ego)

I'm like the teacher in the schoolyard, tugging bullies away by the ears. It's just how I am XD
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#124 Sep 13 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know it's bad when the core game function failures and the bugs very nearly take a backseat to the terrifying fanboying when evaluating why playing that game at this moment in time isn't a good idea.

Seriously. Shona and the rest of you ilk, if I had to interact with you in game I swear I'd probably stick a knife in my eye to have a pleasant diversion.
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#125 Sep 13 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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NumptyHunter wrote:
If you can't even be bothered to play the actual game when it comes out, why do you think anyone here would be interested in your opinion, let alone SE!?
I'm under the crazy assumption that SE wants my money.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#126 Sep 13 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
If you can't even be bothered to play the actual game when it comes out, why do you think anyone here would be interested in your opinion, let alone SE!?


I'm under the crazy assumption that SE wants my money.


I think he's saying that since you've already canceled your pre-order and given up on FFXIV that SE doesn't care about your opinion any more.
#127 Sep 13 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think he's saying that since you've already canceled your pre-order and given up on FFXIV that SE doesn't care about your opinion any more.


They don't seem to care about the opinions of anyone; customer, past present or otherwise.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 4:14pm by hexaemeron
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#128 Sep 13 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
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hexaemeron wrote:

They don't seem to care about the opinions of anyone; customer, past present or otherwise.


SE has never been good with customer relations, that's no secret. I don't know why people are suddenly expecting them to turn into customer service gurus with FFXIV. I'm not defending them, just saying it how it is.
#129 Sep 13 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
SE has never been good with customer relations, that's no secret. I don't know why people are suddenly expecting them to turn into customer service gurus with FFXIV. I'm not defending them, just saying it how it is.


Customer service gurus? Nice use of words to twist the debate. Sneaky.
We expect normal customer service and normal community involvement. The kind we expect from any game developer. This has nothing to do with expecting them to be gurus, or bend over backwards for us.

And just because "thats how it is" doesn't mean we should bend over backwards for them. They're doing something wrong with customer service, and they will get backlash for it from their fans.
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#130 Sep 13 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am sick and tired of hearing people talk about "It's just a beta! Wait for the final product before you judge!"

These people have no concept of how distribution works. These UI issues that people are talking about? THEY ARE GOING TO BE IN THE RELEASED PRODUCT. It takes a minimum of one month to perform the three "P"s of software distribution - Pressing, printing, and packaging. That means that as of today, there are boxed, final products sitting in a warehouse, ready to be shipped. Square-Enix, despite all their flaws, is NOT stupid enough to rewrite a major section of their code and release it, untested, in a final product. If these issues were going to be fixed, they would have been fixed by now. What you're seeing in FFXIV right now is exactly what you'll see come release, only there will be more of it - New zones opened up, quests turned on, caps removed, etc.

I, for one, will be playing come release. I'm giving S-E the benefit of the doubt, and hoping that they will fix their problems before some other game comes out that doesn't have these issues. As it stands right now, I consider FFXIV to be an "OK" console game, and a "horrid" PC game.
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#131 Sep 13 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I personally hope that they made the shift of putting the UI on the client side instead of the server side...

Is that too much to ask? XD
#132 Sep 13 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's funny that SE wouldn't want customer (or potential customer) feedback. I love Bath and Body Works products and every year in September they put out all of their pumpkin scented products: candles, hand soap, lotion, etc. This year, they came out with everything pumpkin scented except lotion. The lotion is what I was most looking forward to and I usually stock the **** up on it. I was sad when I was informed that this year there would be no pumpkin lotion in the stores. The sales associate at the store gave me a customer service card and asked that I call the 800 number and tell corporate that I like the lotion and would like to see it stick around.

When I spoke with the corporate office I discovered that the pumpkin lotion is still available online even though it's not being carried in store. Imagine my surprise when the woman I spoke with at corporate offered to waive my shipping! She even thanked me for calling to express my displeasure. All over a $10 bottle of lotion.
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#133 Sep 13 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Default
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Nirn wrote:
THEY ARE GOING TO BE IN THE RELEASED PRODUCT.


And how do you know SE doesn't have a fix that we'll all have to download after installing the game?
#134 Sep 13 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And how do you know SE doesn't have a fix that we'll all have to download after installing the game?


Man, I had no idea the Church of SE inspired such faith. Be sure to pop in your 50-80 dollars in the collection plate so you too can go to Heaven.
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#135 Sep 13 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Default
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hexaemeron wrote:

Man, I had no idea the Church of SE inspired such faith. Be sure to pop in your 50-80 dollars in the collection plate so you too can go to Heaven.


You work for SE too then? You know exactly what's going to be in the release version? I never knew we had so many SE reps on the forums!
#136 Sep 13 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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You work for SE too then? You know exactly what's going to be in the release version? I never knew we had so many SE reps on the forums!


Don't worry. I'll be here on release day. And by here, I mean the forums, not the game. I cancelled my CE pre-order days ago.
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#137 Sep 13 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
Get ready for pimpslapping :L

Hydragyrum wrote:
Nirn wrote:
THEY ARE GOING TO BE IN THE RELEASED PRODUCT.


And how do you know SE doesn't have a fix that we'll all have to download after installing the game?


Because of what you said in your post right before this one:

Quote:
SE has never been good with customer relations, that's no secret. I don't know why people are suddenly expecting them to turn into customer service gurus with FFXIV.


You're right, we have no reason to expect they will improve in this regard. You just answered your own question.

/end thread

/mydouchebaggery

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 4:52pm by DirectorCobbs
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#138Hydragyrum, Posted: Sep 13 2010 at 2:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I missed where customer relations = fixing bugs.
#139 Sep 13 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
Hydragyrum wrote:
I missed where customer relations = fixing bugs.

It's not hugs we want, buddy.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 4:55pm by DirectorCobbs
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#140 Sep 13 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
I missed where customer relations = fixing bugs.


Well, if they don't give any indication that they are listening, then it is difficult to think that they are... which means that it is not unlikely to think that they aren't actually listening to us, thus doesn't know what to fix? :P

Of course, they could be incredible mind-readers or just silent lurkers that fixes things up without saying anything...
#141 Sep 13 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I missed where customer relations = fixing bugs.


By that statement, it's clear you miss a lot. Fish is brain food.
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#142 Sep 13 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
And how do you know SE doesn't have a fix that we'll all have to download after installing the game?

I believe I explained that in the sentence below:
Quote:
Square-Enix, despite all their flaws, is NOT stupid enough to rewrite a major section of their code and release it, untested, in a final product.

Imagine the following scenario: They DO release a fix, it's in the patch you download immediately after installing the game. Given their patching system, you MUST install this patch in order to play. The only thing this patch does is move the UI clientside. However, due to whatever reason, the game is no longer playable on 25% of their userbase. Instantly, 25% of their paying customers can no longer play the game. This represents a massive profit loss to the company, and all resources are diverted to fixing it. They eventually narrow down the problem to, say, the way a certain instruction set is interpreted, and devise a workaround. They then issue a new patch, and life is good. Or is it?

See, it can take months to narrow down a problem like this. Would you continue to pay monthly on the hope that eventually, the game you paid for will be playable? I know I wouldn't. This is the reason the alpha/beta/release candidate system exists. To hammer out bugs like this. You NEVER throw a concept directly into production.

But hey, what do I know? Up until a few months ago, I was only creating video games for a living.
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#143 Sep 13 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
Virtual rate up for the 3 posters above me for being level headed and unbiased.
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#144 Sep 13 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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MaxwellDemon wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
I missed where customer relations = fixing bugs.


Well, if they don't give any indication that they are listening, then it is difficult to think that they are... which means that it is not unlikely to think that they aren't actually listening to us, thus doesn't know what to fix? :P

Of course, they could be incredible mind-readers or just silent lurkers that fixes things up without saying anything...


My point is when has SE ever reported which bugs they were going to fix prior to fixing them? Never to my knowledge. It's only in the update notes that we ever see what they've been doing. I'm not saying that good policy, but why do you think they won't address these issues when they've addressed other issues in the past?
#145 Sep 13 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Nirn, is your position honestly that the version that we have in the open beta is the exact version we'll see on release?
#146 Sep 13 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nirn wrote:
Imagine the following scenario: They DO release a fix, it's in the patch you download immediately after installing the game. Given their patching system, you MUST install this patch in order to play. The only thing this patch does is move the UI clientside. However, due to whatever reason, the game is no longer playable on 25% of their userbase. Instantly, 25% of their paying customers can no longer play the game. This represents a massive profit loss to the company, and all resources are diverted to fixing it. They eventually narrow down the problem to, say, the way a certain instruction set is interpreted, and devise a workaround. They then issue a new patch, and life is good. Or is it?

See, it can take months to narrow down a problem like this. Would you continue to pay monthly on the hope that eventually, the game you paid for will be playable? I know I wouldn't. This is the reason the alpha/beta/release candidate system exists. To hammer out bugs like this. You NEVER throw a concept directly into production.

But hey, what do I know? Up until a few months ago, I was only creating video games for a living.


I agree that there will most definitely some fixes to make the game not as... game-breaking... as some believes it to be. However, if some people actually expect a revamp of systems in the game (an absolute redesign of the vendor menu UI, inclusion of AH, etc.), then that might just be a bit too far off in the reach for the release date.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 5:06pm by MaxwellDemon
#147 Sep 13 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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UI was designed and intended to be kept client side. Its server side now so they can log inputs. Not sure if that was just an example, or if you really thought SE would build such a horrible system.
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#148 Sep 13 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
My point is when has SE ever reported which bugs they were going to fix prior to fixing them? Never to my knowledge. It's only in the update notes that we ever see what they've been doing. I'm not saying that good policy, but why do you think they won't address these issues when they've addressed other issues in the past?


I am not thinking that SE isn't working their butts on fixing the bugs in the game, since I have faith enough in them that I still have my CE pre-ordered. I am just saying why people would think they aren't, which I do think their opinions do have very good reasons. A good company should be able to communicate with the customers they are trying to serve.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 5:06pm by MaxwellDemon
#149 Sep 13 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Nirn, is your position honestly that the version that we have in the open beta is the exact version we'll see on release?

No, but it's VERY close. Something as major as the UI being moved clientside or the implementation of an auction house system is not likely to occur on release. I MIGHT be able to see them reworking the menus so that it doesn't take 12 clicks to sell an item. I could certainly see them adjusting the exp curve, or gil values.
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#150 Sep 13 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
Hydragyrum wrote:
Nirn, is your position honestly that the version that we have in the open beta is the exact version we'll see on release?

Sorry, strawman argument won't work here

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 5:12pm by DirectorCobbs
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#151 Sep 13 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
UI was designed and intended to be kept client side. Its server side now so they can log inputs. Not sure if that was just an example, or if you really thought SE would build such a horrible system.

While I'll admit this is possible, it's my opinion that this is a poor way to go about logging inputs. Were I to attempt something similar, I'd simply create such a log clientside, and have it ship on out every so often. I cannot think of a single logging feature available serverside that would not be more accurate clientside.
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