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FFXIV Tactics: Understanding the Fatigue SystemFollow

#102 Sep 13 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I won't go as far as to call it fanboyish, but it does try to paint surplus in a positive light and completely ignores the repercussions of how it will affect players now and in the future.


I'm not completely sold on the idea that the "surplus/fatigue" system is permanent. Let me add before I go on that I'm not against it, but can easily see why people are.
I'm slowly being convinced that this is in place for 2 reasons mainly. First to give SE more time to develop expanded end game content, and second to ensure PC players aren't "done" with leveling by the time that PS3 players step foot into the game.
Maybe I'm wrong, but right now, that's the way I'm leaning.
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#103 Sep 13 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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SE has stated that they're pretty adamant about keeping the fatigue system in the game.
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#104 Sep 13 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
Vackashken wrote:
RattyBatty wrote:
I continue to disagree. I guarantee you can find a large culture somewhere in the world (UK, Australia etc..) where that pronunciation is absolutely correct. Considering how many narrators tend to have British accents and 'wacky' ways of saying certian words, I don't think he has to worry too much about this. Afterall they still get jobs. And this is the world wide internet, not USAnet. Accept that things won't always be tailored to your dialect.

Ratedown shield on : The USA english way to pronounce a word is more often than not the one that's 'wrong'.


As an American in the UK, sitting next to his English GF, I can safely say: You're wrong.

She too was like "He needs to learn how to say piety"


First off, I've never heard anyone pronounce Piety the way the guy in this video does, so I agree with you both on that, but that aside, the sentence about US English immediately made me think of a few Brits I know, (one is a guy I worked with for a few years, and the other is my cousin's wife not that it matters), and how they say words like alumin-i-um, parking gairudge and my personal favorite, the blood sucking musky toe. The second and third words sound totally unusual to someone from the US, but they really aren't pronounced any more incorrectly than our own versions, but the first word definitely has added letters.

On the other hand, there's tons of words that many Americans don't say right either. We just don't realize it because we're raised to say things a certain way. I'm from Utah, and here we have something called "Utahnics". It's not too bad in the city but believe me, talking with folks from the farming and mining communities gives me plenty to inwardly laugh about during conversations. We even have a town named Hurricane (pronounced Hurrikun). It's ALMOST as bad as the version of Mericun that Dubya speaks so fluently, but it's definitely not as bad as the nearly unintelligible dialect I heard from an innkeeper in Concord Massachusetts or from a subway conductor in Washington DC on a trip up the east coast in 2000.

Anyway, the pronunciations could have been a lot worse. I really enjoyed watching this pugilist demo video, but listen to the way he says things lol. In the end, as long as you know what the person is trying to say, it really doesn't matter. Smiley: smile

EDIT: Capital Is look like lower case Ls in posts, but only AFTER they are submitted.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 10:39pm by LadyOfHolyDarkness
#105 Sep 13 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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+1 this is a brilliant piece of business
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#106 Sep 13 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
...and when we're not complaining about FFXIV we complain about someone's pronunciation.


My thoughts too. Why nitpick something so minor. People say "oh it's his career at stake"?

So? Did that stop Bush(for 8 years) or Obama(now and then) from butchering words? Did it hamper their career?

The guy could have narrated in an east Texas drawl and I'd still praise the video.
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#107 Sep 13 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
SE has stated that they're pretty adamant about keeping the fatigue system in the game.

I wish they were. Compared to closed beta, it's ten times harder to even scratch the cap. Playing an awful lot during the last two weeks (definitely more than 16 hours!), I didn't.
#108 Sep 13 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
SE has stated that they're pretty adamant about keeping the fatigue system in the game.

I wish they were. Compared to closed beta, it's ten times harder to even scratch the cap. Playing an awful lot during the last two weeks (definitely more than 16 hours!), I didn't.


What I wonder about is what SE will do with this system a few years down the road when the general majority of the percentage of the population is already at end game levels. Imagine having a system like this in present day XI (recent level cap raise aside).
#109 Sep 13 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow, so many critical reviews of this guys video. I thought it was great, very informative for the uninformed, and I believe he hit the surplus system right on. As far as the exp curve being as steep as ff11, that's probably not true, considering the game wouldn't cater to casuals at that point, regardless of the fatigue system. Hence, it's most likely we aren't going to experience a very steep exp curve, which is a good thing.

Personally, I enjoy the thought of leveling up multiple classes in order to create a somewhat unique and individual character. The fatigue system simply encourages that concept (forcibly or not). The segment with the combination of blood bath + second wind on the Gladiator clearly illustrates this point.

As far as the whole piety pronunciation.. that's a bit hypercritical, all things considered. Seriously half of this thread has been about the debate on piety.. lolz
For the record.. you can actually listen to the correct pronunciation online, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/piety

#110 Sep 13 2010 at 11:44 PM Rating: Good
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Finally got to watch the video. Nicely done.

#111 Sep 14 2010 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Imagine having a system like this in present day XI (recent level cap raise aside).


Counting the recent level cap, it wouldn't be a problem as long as you has a friend that was willing to let you do chest duty in Abyssea. You'd go from 1 to cap in 3 weeks probably without needing a weapon, gear, or a subjob, and being on chest duty, even with the cash items from chests finally being pooled, you could still swipe aumented gear to vendor for cash. The important thing would be to make sure you have a satchel.
#112 Sep 14 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
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Any way you spin it, the fatigue system is not cool. That being said, the video was fun, creative, and almost had me believe the fatigue system was for my benefit. Loved every second of it!
#113 Sep 14 2010 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Nitpicking the linguistic integrity of the speaker instead of the content of the presentation? Now, I am gobsmacked, lol.

Well, the video is nicely packaged, clear and precise in its delivery. This should give some food for thought to those muddling through this system.
#114 Sep 15 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Why are we still talking about the pronunciation of Piety?

The video is fantastic, thank you, rate up. I've shown this to a lot of skeptical friends, and I honestly feel like if you've watched this video and still don't like the system, then just stop posting on this board, because the game is not really for you. You will be able to make the same amount of progress in this game, while spending less of your free time playing it, because thanks to the fatigue limits, the leveling curve won't be as steep and painful as it was in vanilla XI.

If you still want to play all day, all week, you can level many different disciplines in tandem, and become even more powerful. I'm happy that I won't get left behind because I'm not in high school with infinite free time to devote to an MMO like I was 8 years ago when FFXI was released. But aside from that, I'm happier that even if I was, I would be able to get more done in the game without spending as many hours. The solution is an elegant one, and it means that in a Linkshell full of my RL friends, all of whom are busy people, we're going to be able to pace ourselves together.

If you can't grasp or appreciate what this system allows for, you're probably not in the target demographic of the game. (Or surprise - you just like to complain?)

Edit: Also, and here's the kicker, the only people this should be frustrating are the very hardcore, and what exactly is it that you are in such a hurry to get to 50 for anyways? It's unlikely we'll see any serious endgame until March, or possibly even June. So with this system, instead of leveling 1 class to 50 immediately, then going back and doing another to 50, you'll just be leveling a few side by side. I don't see the big deal.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 2:28pm by RamseySylph
#115 Sep 15 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Very good video. A great explanation for something I been confused about for a while.
#116 Sep 15 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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RamseySylph wrote:
Why are we still talking about the pronunciation of Piety?
Let's just call the whole thing off.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 5:10pm by bsphil
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#117 Sep 15 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Didn't really mention the physical cap? Thought there was a physical experience fatigue too?
#118 Sep 15 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
if you've watched this video and still don't like the system, then just stop posting on this board, because the game is not really for you.


What? It's a good video but... why do I have to agree with its conclusions?

RamseySylph wrote:
Edit: Also, and here's the kicker, the only people this should be frustrating are the very hardcore, and what exactly is it that you are in such a hurry to get to 50 for anyways? It's unlikely we'll see any serious endgame until March, or possibly even June. So with this system, instead of leveling 1 class to 50 immediately, then going back and doing another to 50, you'll just be leveling a few side by side. I don't see the big deal.


Because I want to?
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#119 Sep 15 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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First off, Great video. The quality was high, it clearly took alot of effort, and it covered the surplus defense pretty well.

I just have a few things I'd like to add though. First, The leveling curve is still a bit steep, considering how low exp/mob is, I'm typically getting only about 150-200 skill per green con'd mob.

This method of haulting exp gain is more in tune with level caps, than it is a steep xp curve. Other games have allowed players to play at their own pace, some people hitting cap at their speed, while the bulk of people hit cap at the rate the dev's intended.

Finally, I'll point out that this system does not IN ANY WAY provide freedom. Literally everything that one can do with the surplus system, they could have done without it.

The whole defense of surplus is under the assumption that the leveling curve is lowered because of it. We don't know this, we haven't seen what the numbers would have been otherwise.

Finally, on the topic of horizontal progression, I consider this a faulty argument. What is so wrong with a player going 1-50 with his gladiator, and then going back and leveling other classes for the extra abilities he'll want while grouping. Freedom is letting players choose what to do for themselves, its not closing a door and pointing at all the other open ones.
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#120 Sep 15 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Default
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What a great video! That was awesomely informative! Two thumbs up, high five, and kudos!
#121 Sep 15 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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geotrick wrote:
Didn't really mention the physical cap? Thought there was a physical experience fatigue too?


In plain English it discusses this quite clearly, watch it again?

Archmage Callinon wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
if you've watched this video and still don't like the system, then just stop posting on this board, because the game is not really for you.


What? It's a good video but... why do I have to agree with its conclusions?


Not insinuating you have to agree.

Archmage Callinon wrote:

Because I want to?


That's my point, the game is not going to let you. So either you're the target demographic and you just like to complain about things - or you're not the target demographic and you should go play another game. I don't have anything personally wrong with people who disagree with the system. I just can't understand the reasoning behind complaining about it after this long. (Edit: Honestly you weren't even complaining, you simply stated you enjoyed the video, but still disagree with the system, which is perfectly mature and reasonable.)

It's like yelling at the sky if it starts to rain. If you're still doing it four hours after it started raining, it's a little annoying. That being said, this is the internet, so as you were gentlemen.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:23pm by RamseySylph
#122 Sep 15 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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It's like yelling at the sky if it starts to rain. If you're still doing it four hours after it started raining, it's a little annoying. That being said, this is the internet, so as you were gentlemen.


thats only true if the sky is also designed/maintained by a development team who may have to explain poor quarterly sales.
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#123 Sep 15 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:

It's like yelling at the sky if it starts to rain. If you're still doing it four hours after it started raining, it's a little annoying. That being said, this is the internet, so as you were gentlemen.


thats only true if the sky is also designed/maintained by a development team who may have to explain poor quarterly sales.


Your argument would be true if this system were something that would possibly result in poor quarterly sales. It's not going to impact sales much, it's only really a big deal for some of the more vocal hardcore players. It's innovation, and naturally with fans of such a stagnant genre it's being taken poorly by the vocal ones.
#124 Sep 15 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Your argument would be true if this system were something that would possibly result in poor quarterly sales. It's not going to impact sales much, it's only really a big deal for some of the more vocal hardcore players. It's innovation, and naturally with fans of such a stagnant genre it's being taken poorly by the vocal ones.


I had initially taken your post to be a "if you don't like it don't buy it" post, and wanted to point out that there is a downside to enough people not playing it.


I understand why people keep complaining about it, they want the message to get to SE that they don't like it, but I do agree that fansite forums aren't the way to go about that. I also want to point out that there is a divide between people who Hate it, and those who like/don't care. Initially I felt it was about 70-30 hate, now on these boards its looking like 70-30 like, which is due to enough people losing interest in the game, or realizing it won't affect them, or not caring anymore. But what irks me, (as someone in the "thinks its stupid, but not gonna let it ruin the game for them" catagory), is people who keep arguing that its a great system. Until the exp/level starts to actually feel lower because of the system, the only real positive to it, is that "casuals" aren't left behind. This system negatively affects a few player types (not just "hardcores"), and whenever they criticize it, 5 people come in and say "no, its a good system you just don't understand it".

Also, its not an innovative idea, its a weekly (soft) level cap with a fancy bow on it. Its SE saying, week 1, players will not get any class past level 18. Ok its week 2, now you can only get enough XP to get that class to 26, etc.
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#125 Sep 15 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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First and foremost: Nice job on the video, and thank you for articulating the pros.

Now then
Quote:
But what irks me, (as someone in the "thinks its stupid, but not gonna let it ruin the game for them" catagory), is people who keep arguing that its a great system.


I'm one of the people that think this is a great system. I believe the experience curve is more flat than XI's system. Right now, experience gain is in a weakened state due to a few factors:

1. Optimal mobs to grind on are not yet established.
2. Nobody has any great gear yet.
3. Low level areas are currently overcamped, increasing time between kills.
4. Party dynamics are not established.

All of these factors will recede in short order, resulting in a substantial increase in the standard experience gain rate (The community is not competent to the point that we can compare FFXIV exp/hour to FFXI exp/hour). I think after the community matures a bit the curve will seem much more flat.

Quote:
Also, its not an innovative idea, its a weekly (soft) level cap with a fancy bow on it. Its SE saying, week 1, players will not get any class past level 18. Ok its week 2, now you can only get enough XP to get that class to 26, etc.


I understand that some are not fond of the system, or that some find that it lacks creativity, but I believe that it is innovative, as I have yet to see another game that does it.
#126 Sep 15 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
'm one of the people that think this is a great system. I believe the experience curve is more flat than XI's system. Right now, experience gain is in a weakened state due to a few factors:

1. Optimal mobs to grind on are not yet established.
2. Nobody has any great gear yet.
3. Low level areas are currently overcamped, increasing time between kills.
4. Party dynamics are not established.

All of these factors will recede in short order, resulting in a substantial increase in the standard experience gain rate (The community is not competent to the point that we can compare FFXIV exp/hour to FFXI exp/hour). I think after the community matures a bit the curve will seem much more flat.


I can concede that some people do like this. They're happy that it prevents some people from blazing past them, or that the game is 'encouraging' people to play other classes sooner rather than later. Or for another reason all together. What I dislike is more how I ended the paragraph, being told I'm wrong for not liking it.

And as far as comparing the XP to FFXI, thats irrelevant, they're different games. What I am upset about, is that we have an XP throttling system in place, and XP requirements look to be 25-30% higher every level. Basically though, the whole XP curve argument is moot, because we don't have the finalized system, and we don't know what it would be like without the fatigue system. We don't know that they implemented it in order to lower the curve, I don't believe they've ever said or even implied that (feel free to link where they have). All talk about XP curves from either side is just theorycrafting.


Quote:
I understand that some are not fond of the system, or that some find that it lacks creativity, but I believe that it is innovative, as I have yet to see another game that does it.


I guess in that case it is new. Nobody has done it before. No game has somehow deduced that having players play less is going to increase revenues.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 10:01pm by KujaKoF
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#127 Sep 16 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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All I have to say is thank you, maybe this will help quite some of the naysayers.
#128 Sep 16 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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great video, when i first heard of fatigue i was all like "wtf, that's stupid"

After playing the game i realized it wasn't that bad, cause i switch classes constantly anyway.

The main problem with the game comes from all the other problems that exist atm hehe. Fatigue ain't one of em.

I understand how certain people could dislike the fatigue system cause they just want to lvl 1 or 2 classes up and that's it, but this game is kinda shoving the whole "level every class" down your throat.

I think they want the end-game to be... never "LF Healer, LF Tank" and just have everyone able to do any job i guess.. We're all gonna be max lvl everythings and be clones of each other! Woot.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:06am by Nokturnal
#129 Sep 16 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Nokturnal wrote:
great video, when i first heard of fatigue i was all like "wtf, that's stupid"

After playing the game i realized it wasn't that bad, cause i switch classes constantly anyway.

The main problem with the game comes from all the other problems that exist atm hehe. Fatigue ain't one of em.

I understand how certain people could dislike the fatigue system cause they just want to lvl 1 or 2 classes up and that's it, but this game is kinda shoving the whole "level every class" down your throat.

I think they want the end-game to be... never "LF Healer, LF Tank" and just have everyone able to do any job i guess.. We're all gonna be max lvl everythings and be clones of each other! Woot.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:06am by Nokturnal


Except that you're limited to the types of skills you can utilize effectively by your stat distribution, and limited by the types of skills you can combine by having an action point limit.
#130 Sep 17 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Why are the Pugilist's weapons just two sword hilts? >:|

Well-made video, though.
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#131 Sep 17 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought this video was official the entire time. O well if the system work they way the op stated then that would not be that bad. The question is how long it takes to hit the fatigue and how fast it cools down.

On another note, No matter how you try to candy cote it. I still don't think a player should be force to stop his/her progression because of any reason than there own.

also what i want to know is what is the real reason behind the system, I don't think there telling the truth at all. In this world we leave it big companies never tell the full truth only partial.

#132 Sep 20 2010 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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It is a great video, it takes some of the sting out of the weekly level soft-cap, which is still a terrible idea. Maybe everyone will have max craft levels (taking the high income output out of the equation, bah) and fully skilled sub classes (yay)?
Will your next project try to take the sting out of having to build an entire new PC to play?
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#133 Sep 20 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Decent
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This guy will soon be an SE employee :p

However, what this video really does is simply point out the benefits of horizontal growth, showing that the Fatigue System "encourages" it. The fatal flaw with that encouragement is ignoring the fact that hardcore players already understand this concept and incorporate without any help from limitations.

The real question is "What is SE trying to accomplish with this system?" If it's to encourage horizontal growth, as the video suggests, then there are much better solutions to that goal that don't involve limitations (frankly, the opposite).

If the goal is simply to find a different way to impose the necessary leveling limitations that all RPGs must implement, then it's clearly a flawed solutions, seeing as how others have already pointed out better ways to do this (namely, rested XP).

At the end of the day, all games limit you in some way, as this is necessary. But the art of game design comes in masking these limitations so that they are transparent. The tried and true leveling curve has been around forever because it's a perfect way to transparently limit a player's progress. The bottom line is that whether SE is trying to foster horizontal growth or limit vertical growth, there are clearly alternatives that don't involve hard limitations.

I could go on, but this point's probably been echoed throughout the thread already. Just wanted to throw in my 2 centabos.
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#134 Sep 20 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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metaphist wrote:
The tried and true leveling curve has been around forever because it's a perfect way to transparently limit a player's progress.


Actually, I'd have to say it's because D&D was one of the first popular RPG games and they nailed this concept to the wall, and every better idea/copier out there tried to imitate the best at the time.

An example of something different would be the ElderScroll games where your level means a lot less then your individual skillups.

Another would be Eve, which is based, literally, on time. Straight, no bs, no xp, just time. Create a character, log in for a minute a day, setup training queues, and go back to life. Come back in two years as a big bad. Broke, but skilled well. This utter, direct, limitation exists in one of the most continuously popular MMOs out there.

This is a mix. It uses the ElderScroll system of random rankups to skills based on usage, a time block like Eve, and xp like the rest.

Should be interesting.
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#135 Sep 20 2010 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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In defense of the fatigue system, let's not forget that MANY many people hated leveling their subjobs in XI. However, it was clearly a necessity. You were "forced" to level other jobs even back then, whats really so different here? You can't really say you "chose" to level your subjob in order to be the best you could be, because again, you simply weren't going to be able to play past a certain point without a properly leveled subjob. Frankly, you either leveled your **** subjob or you quit.

With the new system, you clearly can do fine with your main job's abilities alone. Getting abilities from other jobs will make you more effective, but I don't see anyone getting kicked from a group because the didn't happen to unlock a certain pugilist ability on their lancer (I hope). Subjobs were a clever way to keep you playing the game longer by choosing other classes, and the fatigue system is just another variation of that. The main difference is that the fatigue system is more blatant about what it's trying to do, while the subjob system was cleverly masked under a "choice" of what subjob to level, not an obvious requirement to get the **** off your main for a while.

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#136 Sep 21 2010 at 1:57 AM Rating: Good
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I think I should redo the voice over for the movie in my full blown Geordie accent, and watch pronunciation complainers brainsplode :D

"Wiv like 18 disciplines ta chooz, ya'll ne'er gan awer the limit man!"
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#137 Sep 21 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
Wow I felt like I should have been wearing a starched shirt and holding my cup of coffee at a staff meeting watching that o.o Very professionally done. It kept hitting me that I'm watching a training video... with swords and magic! Woo!
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