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#1 Sep 12 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Although I am sure the developers have the best intentions, I can't help but believe they have already sabotaged this game. I know that generally speaking, the attitude on all of the major forums is one of blind faith. "This is only beta, this is not release, quit passing judgement." That's all fine and well, you are welcome to keep deluding yourselves if that makes you feel better about this game but the simple truth is, if they had something better to offer, we would be playing it, because this open beta coupled with their total silence on all of the community complaints is not going to "sell this game" to anyone. I promise that in the grand scheme of things it is driving away more players than it has attracted.

They are clearly not particularly concerned about the PC audience. If they were, they would be advertising the game. They would be responding to the community. They are banking on the PS3 subs, who I am sure they consider a "different breed" of gamer, not akin to a PC user.

Sadly the paid beta begins on the 22nd. The game is launching in what I would call a state of quality that is around "Craft of Gods" or "Dawntide" perhaps just a twinge farther along than those games.

I was a true fan of FFXI. I embraced all of its flaws because it had soul. It had a certain magic about that was missing in other MMO's of the day, and of MMO's that I played later as well. It has pained me to play through this beta and see that they have taken several steps backwards from FFXI rather than forward, 8 years later.

Issues that should be resolved before any further damage is done:

1. Hardware Mouse (I do believe they are actually working on this due to the hack. If they are not, then they really do hate us.)
2. Menus should be moved to client side - the current lag in place is unacceptable, and this is not debug code causing this, its simply a bad idea with a bad implementation.
3. The current menu system is less intuitive than FFXI, which I did not really think was possible. This game has made me *embrace* the FFXI menu system, as it is truly awesome in responsiveness as well as layout and number of nested menus compared to FFXIV.
4. GuildLeve's - In particular the battlecraft ones are simply stupid. They would be so much better if they were more like missions, rather than go kill 3 of this and 4 of that. Perhaps puzzles involved, and so forth. I understand why they have implemented this, to appeal to casual players. The problem is, this game in its current state, is not something casual players are going to play.
5. Surplus system - This again seems like it was put in place for casual players. Very few casual players are going to be willing to put up with this anything but casual game given how its currently presented and interfaced.
6. Repetitive Zones - I like the vastness of the new zones. Too bad its the same 15 land patterns repeated over and over again, turned in different directions. You can walk for 30 minutes and it all just looks the same. I would rather have much smaller, FFXI sized zones, that are more varied, then vast expanses of the same thing.
7. Battle Regimen System - After spending a lot of time with people, on vent, trying to make this an effective system in party battle, it is really clear that it needs to be totally revamped. The Skillchain system from FFXI was pretty straight forward. This is a "version" of that system that is much harder to make useful, with several extra steps involved. Its not intuitive.
8. The repair system - I don't have a problem with the repair system, but the approach that has been taken here is counter productive to partying with others. I can live with it, but I don't think most people believe this is a good system.
9. No MP Regen - Of course we are too early in the game to know the ramifications of this. So far I have had no real issues with MP, of course I barely use my spells as a result of the current system as well, so I can't say I am a fan of it. Being required to either teleport back to a crystal or run to one when you need MP to keep your party running feels like eating a hamburger with ground up glass in it.
10. Retainer system - Craft based economy is not going to work effectively under the current market ward system. Half the time the retainers don't even all spawn. It is simply one of the foulest creations I have ever seen in a game. Please, bring back the standard auction house.
11. Party Invite System - For all its faults, the FFXI system "/search all 73-75" worked. It was not hard to use. Parties were not hard to build. The current system to look for people to group with is so bad, that I don't even try to use it anymore. It's no suprise people are not partying with each other, its near impossible to put one together unless its on the fly with people standing next to you.
12. Key bindings - I am having to run a 3rd party program just to use my arrow keys to drive the camera. Again this is just another step backwards.

You know why Apple computer is successful? They build slick, simple, highly intuitive user interfaces that your average dullard can step into with very little effort. I don't care for their wholly anti-consumer behavior and own nothing made by Apple, but I see why as a company they are successful.

I am not suggesting that FFXIV should be a simple game that any dullard can play. The thing that made FFXI rewarding, and kept me playing for years, was the soul crushing difficulty. The KEY difference is the difficulty I perceived there was FUN and PART OF THE GAME. In FFXIV, the difficulty starts just trying to interface the game, nevermind the game itself. Just trying to play it is challenging, without the first mob.

I know this post will be trolled to death and thats fine whatever. I only wrote this because I wanted this game to succeed so badly. It pains me to watch SE drive it face first into the ground before its even released. Word of mouth and Bad PR are killing this game and its solely due to its current state. The company is not doing anything to make us feel better. There is no hint that they are going listen to our feedback. I do not have "compliant mind" or whatever other eastern I'll take whatever you give me outlook on life. This is a global game, and most of the global market that has BUYING power, does not have "compliant mind" outlook. You cannot ignore your community and expect to be successful.

There is something strange going on at this company. Corporations want to make money, as much as possible. Everything they are currently doing is working against that desire. It simply makes no sense.

At any rate.. I hope it gets better, I hope they listen, and more than anything, I hope they respond to the community soon.

ciao




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#2 Sep 12 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I take my previous statement back as this thread has become constructive.

Carry on. Smiley: wink

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 7:18pm by Zidaga
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#3 Sep 12 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Sometimes beating a dead horse is the only way to effect change.

Saying nothing is certainly not going to move this game in a better direction.
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#4 Sep 12 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes i am also getting sick and tired of reading this same stuff over and over as well. BUT when its written and thought out well, then its a rate up for me.
#5 Sep 12 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Default
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1) yeah, most things you wrote Ican agree with.

2) none of these things are deal breakers, they are all nitpicks. None of them are unfixable, and all of them will be adressed come release.

3) "True FFXI Fan" isnt aware that FFXI was based on ps2? That the company is a console company? Lack of a hardware mouse should make that evident to you.. And why do people give any number of sh*ts abotu a hardware mouse unless you are trying to play on some anceint computer system. I have no mouse lag and my computer is on the lower end of reccomended specs.
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#6 Sep 12 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
None of them are unfixable, and all of them will be adressed come release.
For someone who has absolutely no more insight into SE than anyone else (which is pretty low considering the lack of communication), that's a pretty strong statement to make.

Louiscool wrote:
Lack of a hardware mouse should make that evident to you
The hardware mouse is already there (it's not that hard to implement), it just needs an option to enable it, which is why people have been able to hack the game executable to enable the hardware mouse. They just haven't done it for no apparent reason at all.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 9:32pm by bsphil
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#7 Sep 12 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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3) "True FFXI Fan" isnt aware that FFXI was based on ps2? That the company is a console company? Lack of a hardware mouse should make that evident to you.. And why do people give any number of sh*ts abotu a hardware mouse unless you are trying to play on some anceint computer system. I have no mouse lag and my computer is on the lower end of reccomended specs.


Where did I state I was not aware that FFXI was based on PS2? I bought the PS2 version for a dear find of mine many years ago because that is all he had to play on.

As far as the mouse goes, this isn't rocket science. I play fight exclusively with the keyboard, although sometimes doing things like crafting for example, are more desirable with the mouse. If the idea was that somehow a hardware mouse would make the game harder to bot in or whatever the excuse the community has come up with to justify this stupidity, then I hate to rain on your parade, but anything can be worked around. Giving every mouse user out there the middle finger, for something the inevitably won't do much to stop botting or RMT is pretty short sighted as a game manufacturer.

I am playing on a average computer. A Core 2 Duo 3.16ghz with 4GB of RAM and a Radeon 5770.
My pal is playing on a Alienware dual quad-core with 2 Nvidia 480's and 6 GB of RAM. His mouse sucks too, so either you are:

1. Using the hardware mouse hack
2. A Liar
3. The luckiest person playing FFXIV



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#8 Sep 12 2010 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with you. Which is why SE isn't getting my money. They've shown they won't listen to us asking for change. Perhaps they'll listen when they stop getting our money.
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#9 Sep 12 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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....if they had something better to offer, we would be playing it....



That is necessarily true. they have been released a beta build for people to play and test various aspects of the game. At this stage unless they're really thrilled with their release build, or just plain bored, they will not be worrying much about updating the open beta build outside of keeping it up and running.
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#10 Sep 12 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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That is necessarily true. they have been released a beta build for people to play and test various aspects of the game. At this stage unless they're really thrilled with their release build, or just plain bored, they will not be worrying much about updating the open beta build outside of keeping it up and running.


The packaged version had to go gold several weeks ago. About the time they released the part about the packaging for the CE being manufactured - you can figure that the actual RTM_gold version of the game was pressed either right before or right after that. You have to remember they have to coordinate production of the boxes, manuals, DVD's, books, RSA Security Tokens, etc. Then all of that has to make it through the supply chain, around the globe. From manufacturer to major distributors to minor distributors to individual stores.

I would direct you to the Sept 7th Beta Update notes on the ZAM splash page. They would not really have a reason to be fixing the things listed in these updates if we were not looking at what I am sure is much farther along than what is pressed on the DVD that will be released on the 22nd. I imagine that during the period between Sept 19 and Sept 22, the "beta client" build will be modified to remove the words "beta client" and it will basically "update" over the version on the DVD.

I wish I could be more optimistic, but corporations are motivated by one thing

GREED

The corporate mantra is biggest return on investment for smallest amount of work, with the 80/20 rule in full effect (Can we get 80% of what we want for 20% of the resources that it would take to get 100%?)

They would not be wasting resources continuing to update non-critical issues in the beta if this were not the latest build of the game. It is being patched daily. Per the Sept 7th Patch, bone ring stat's are not mission critical for patching in the beta. Anyone who thinks that come release day, a different "experience" will be available is choosing to ignore how things work in the real world.

The only thing that I am totally boggled by, is why they even hosted an open beta with the game in the condition it is. The only thing I can even remotely believe is the server issues they were experiencing were so severe that if they did not ramp up for a month, the game simply would have fallen apart around launch, so they just let it go knowing that it was going to hurt overall sales, significantly.

They have already committed to milestones and delivery dates at least 1 to 2 years in advance if their enterprise project management is anything like Corporate America. The ROI has already been baked into the financial plan for 2010/2011 so regardless of game status, all systems are go.

At some point they made the decision to release the game in a broken state, which led to their decision to push the PS3 version out. They are using the PC audience to finance the final stage of initial development, so that hopefully, the console users, who are clearly their target audience, will have a better experience.

It is sad.






Edited, Sep 12th 2010 11:51pm by elm33
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#11 Sep 12 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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elm33 wrote:
Quote:
That is necessarily true. they have been released a beta build for people to play and test various aspects of the game. At this stage unless they're really thrilled with their release build, or just plain bored, they will not be worrying much about updating the open beta build outside of keeping it up and running.


The packaged version had to go gold several weeks ago. About the time they released the part about the packaging for the CE being manufactured - you can figure that the actual RTM_gold version of the game was pressed either right before or right after that. You have to remember they have to coordinate production of the boxes, manuals, DVD's, books, RSA Security Tokens, etc. Then all of that has to make it through the supply chain, around the globe. From manufacturer to major distributors to minor distributors to individual stores.

I would direct you to the Sept 7th Beta Update notes on the ZAM splash page. They would not really have a reason to be fixing the things listed in these updates if we were not looking at what I am sure is much farther along than what is pressed on the DVD that will be released on the 22nd. I imagine that during the period between Sept 19 and Sept 22, the "beta client" build will be modified to remove the words "beta client" and it will basically "update" over the version on the DVD.

I wish I could be more optimistic, but corporations are motivated by one thing

MONEY

The corporate mantra is biggest return on investment for smallest amount of work, with the 80/20 rule in full effect (Can we get 80% of what we want for 20% of the resources that it would take to get 100%?)

They would not be wasting resources continuing to update non-critical issues in the beta if this were not the latest build of the game. It is being patched daily. Per the Sept 7th Patch, bone ring stat's are not mission critical for patching in the beta. Anyone who thinks that come release day, a different "experience" will be available is choosing to ignore how things work in the real world.

The only thing that I am totally boggled by, is why they even hosted an open beta with the game in the condition it is. The only thing I can even remotely believe is the server issues they were experiencing were so severe that if they did not ramp up for a month, the game simply would have fallen apart around launch, so they just let it go knowing that it was going to hurt overall sales, significantly.

They have already committed to milestones and delivery dates at least 1 to 2 years in advance if their enterprise project management is anything like Corporate America. The ROI has already been baked into the financial plan for 2010/2011 so regardless of game status, all systems are go.

At some point they made the decision to release the game in a broken state, which led to their decision to push the PS3 version out. They are using the PC audience to finance the final stage of initial development, so that hopefully, the console users, who are clearly their target audience, will have a better experience.

It is sad.






Edited, Sep 12th 2010 11:51pm by elm33


There are many things i would like to address in this post, but i chose 1 for this post. ALL Business isabout is making money. They have to offer something for that money. Greed is a harsh word, however relevant it may be. Nobody is in the business of not making money. By your logic, just having a job makes you greedy, since you offer a service to your employer, but you always want more money to do it. Even if it's the same job. Even if you stand around for half the day.


Edited, Sep 12th 2010 11:58pm by Teneleven
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#12 Sep 12 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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There are many things i would like to address in this post, but i chose 1 for this post. ALL Business isabout is making money. They have to offer something for that money. Greed is a harsh word, however relevant it may be. Nobody is in the business of not making money. By your logic, just having a job makes you greedy, since you offer a service to your employer, but you always want more money to do it. Even if it's the same job. Even if you stand around for half the day.


I am happy to replace the word Greed with the word Money. Although I think "Greed for Money" is probably more representative of most corporate behavior, as corporations certainly are not motivated by your best interest, they are motivated by their shareholders interests, and their shareholders interests are maximum profit.

As far as people being greedy, I don't disagree that its in their nature, but your example doesn't jive with me. As you can see real people are producing more for year after year lately. Ex: 2.8 productivity increase in 1Q2010, labor cost down 4.2%. (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/prod2_06032010.htm) People today offer more services to an employer for less money, just because they want a job.

At any rate.. this has derailed the thread.

Back on topic, I believe they made a serious mistake holding an Open Beta with the game in its current state. Its going to hurt the PC sales, thus hurt profit, and the bad PR may roll over into the PS3 release. From the corporate perspective, they may have baked in a 6 month PC ramp up to offset development costs for the PS3 and bug fix, but its a short sighted strategy, as we all know that its the launch that makes or breaks an MMO, not how much better it is 6 months to a year later (see Age Of Conan if you need an example)

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#13 Sep 12 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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This has all been said 50 times, most of it is already on the front page.


In all fairness to the OP, he summarized the flaws quite nicely.
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#14 Sep 12 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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I can't wait for release. It will do 1 of 2 things. It will either prove you right, and they should have waited, or it will prove me right, and they are just holding back a bunch of stuff.

The truth is, it's probably closer to your assessment, than mine. I still don't think they made a mistake though. FF has been a series that has always pushed the envelope, and fans know that. People will play , if only for the fact that they know SE will give them another FF title. The greed factor is irrelevant because people know they have to pay to play. They will either pay, or not pay.

One thing that kills me though, is all this speculation. This is a beta build. I'm not saying that release will be much different. I don't know, nor does anyone else.

Can't we all just save our critique for a build that matters?
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#15 Sep 13 2010 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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elm33 wrote:
[quote]3)

I am playing on a average computer. A Core 2 Duo 3.16ghz with 4GB of RAM and a Radeon 5770.
My pal is playing on a Alienware dual quad-core with 2 Nvidia 480's and 6 GB of RAM. His mouse sucks too, so either you are:

1. Using the hardware mouse hack
2. A Liar
3. The luckiest person playing FFXIV




Your processor is at minimum requirements...

Me and 9 other friends with decent to good rigs are not having mouse issues. 1 friend was having mouse issues until he upgraded.


And Phil, you know as well as anyone that issues will be addressed dude. I didn't say on release date, but if FFXI is any indication, there will be constant modifications and ongoing improvements.

SE isn't one to let their games just die.
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#16 Sep 13 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
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Sometimes beating a dead horse is the only way to effect change.


You know, there's a reason the Smiley: deadhorse smile was made. I'll let you guess which forum was the cause of it. Actually, no I won't. It was =10.
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#17 Sep 13 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Why do I always feel like I'm reading the same thread over and over and over and over and over and over...
#18 Sep 13 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm still in the blind faith category. SE is trying a formula that's at this stage is fairly different from the industry standard out there right now. I'm going to give it time to play out and see if it's actually a good thing or a bad thing. Speculation is fun and easy, waiting for the real test results takes time and patience.

I'm not going to believe that everything that needs to be fixed will be fixed, just the biggest issues. Releasing a game in this small of a timeframe can't have been easy. I assume they will be working out solutions to the bigger problems onces they solve the smaller bug problems. If not, well, I pay month to month.
#19 Sep 13 2010 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
elm33 wrote:
[quote]3)

I am playing on a average computer. A Core 2 Duo 3.16ghz with 4GB of RAM and a Radeon 5770.
My pal is playing on a Alienware dual quad-core with 2 Nvidia 480's and 6 GB of RAM. His mouse sucks too, so either you are:

1. Using the hardware mouse hack
2. A Liar
3. The luckiest person playing FFXIV




Your processor is at minimum requirements...

Me and 9 other friends with decent to good rigs are not having mouse issues. 1 friend was having mouse issues until he upgraded.


And Phil, you know as well as anyone that issues will be addressed dude. I didn't say on release date, but if FFXI is any indication, there will be constant modifications and ongoing improvements.

SE isn't one to let their games just die.

There is mouse lag, factually. It is software based, factually. SE has said it is software based. They have said mouse performance is slow. Everyone else has said mouse performance is slow.
You and your 9 friends simply cannot feel it. Just how many gamers dont really notice the difference between 30fps and 60fps. Lucky you

Mouse lag is the least of the UI problems, however.
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#20 Sep 13 2010 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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snieh wrote:
I'm still in the blind faith category. SE is trying a formula that's at this stage is fairly different from the industry standard out there right now. I'm going to give it time to play out and see if it's actually a good thing or a bad thing. Speculation is fun and easy, waiting for the real test results takes time and patience.

I'm not going to believe that everything that needs to be fixed will be fixed, just the biggest issues.
Releasing a game in this small of a time frame can't have been easy. I assume they will be working out solutions to the bigger problems once they solve the smaller bug problems. If not, well, I pay month to month.


Bolded two points that everyone should focus on.

This is definitely a new direction they are going with in regards to combat,crafting and other game play elements. I think most people are just afraid of change.

There are alot of errors that need to be fixed and SE has already said they have some fixes ready that are to be implemented at launch.

It's gonna suck at first but I guess we're just going to have to slog thru and wait a few months and see if anything changes. I encourage everyone to keep trying to open a dialog with SE and give the game some time.

They're more than likely going to make back any losses they incurred during development within the first few months after release so hopefully they will be more relaxed and will focus on fixing these issues.
#21 Sep 13 2010 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent
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SE is trying a formula that's at this stage is fairly different from the industry standard out there right now. I'm going to give it time to play out and see if it's actually a good thing or a bad thing


Rate up for this because its true and that new formula is what 90% of those that are upset are raging over.
Haven't we realized yet that SE pretty much re-invents their formula for every FF release?
#22 Sep 13 2010 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
Yes, but they are slow to balance and implement effective updates, which is the main cause of concern.

If this changes, and SE follows suit of companies with high ratings of customer and client satisfaction (by communicating with their community), then everyone will be happy. :)
That is all anyone can ask for.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 6:47am by DirectorCobbs
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#23 Sep 13 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
None of them are unfixable, and all of them will be adressed come release.


With 9 days before release, FFXIV has gone gold already. This means that OB without the current patches is the release we will see on the DvD.

If SE let us play a much older build and patching this build, then I have lost faith in the development capacity/strategy of SE.

Yes, some are fixable. Most of the concerns need a change in basic gameplay design, which will take time. And most of those changes are not done within a short time frame and thus will take months.


Edited, Sep 13th 2010 7:13am by Shoomy
#24 Sep 13 2010 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Haven't we realized yet that SE pretty much re-invents their formula for every FF release?

That's part of the problem here. They're trying to re-invent the wheel.
#25 Sep 13 2010 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shoomy wrote:
This means that OB without the current patches is the release we will see on the DvD.


Not entirely true. Given the fact that the current batch (and pretty much everyone since alpha) of testers has no way of reporting bugs, I strongly suspect we are here only for server load and other server-related testing. As such, I sincerely doubt we are playing with the final product. I will gladly eat these words should I be proven wrong Smiley: smile

Threads like these need to be in the feedback forum, where someone would see them and perhaps take them into account.
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#26 Sep 13 2010 at 5:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's part of the problem here. They're trying to re-invent the wheel.


I don't see it as re-inventing the wheel, I see it as creating a new and different game. There is nothing set in stone on how things should be/work in an mmo and there shouldn't be a set standard. They're re-inventing their formula, not the genre, they've done it well over 13 times and still sell a good game/story almost every time.
#27 Sep 13 2010 at 5:57 AM Rating: Good
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the attitude on all of the major forums is one of blind faith.


Or you could actually go look at XI's track record from original beta to release, patches, xpac, then NA release and see that SE has a better track record than most. XI, in all of it's beta's, had the same beta ******** that EVERY game has. Everyone posting on forums is a programmer and knows much more than the company who makes millions publishing these games... riigghht. You all should be pounding on SE's door with your resumes in hand making top dollar if that was the case...

XI scored pretty high from gamer sites/mags when released, despite complaints. Nothing about my faith is blind, just based off of their history with XI. Do your research and stop basing your "facts" on opinions you yanked out of your ***.
#28 Sep 13 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Haven't we realized yet that SE pretty much re-invents their formula for every FF release?

That's part of the problem here. They're trying to re-invent the wheel.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to play the same game year after year, decade after decade, because no one wants to risk "re-inventing the wheel". I'm playing FFXIV because it IS new, it IS different. If you'd rather play a game with well-aged mechanics, I suggest you actually play the games that developed them. Yeah, SE won't get it right the first time, that's the risk in developing a new game. But this isn't SE's first time around the block. It's pretty darn naive to think they're just ignoring the bugs in FFXIV.

#29 Sep 13 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Haven't we realized yet that SE pretty much re-invents their formula for every FF release?

That's part of the problem here. They're trying to re-invent the wheel.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to play the same game year after year, decade after decade, because no one wants to risk "re-inventing the wheel". I'm playing FFXIV because it IS new, it IS different. If you'd rather play a game with well-aged mechanics, I suggest you actually play the games that developed them. Yeah, SE won't get it right the first time, that's the risk in developing a new game. But this isn't SE's first time around the block. It's pretty darn naive to think they're just ignoring the bugs in FFXIV.



Um, you do know what "reinventing the wheel" is, right?

Here's a hint: it's has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with innovation.

#30 Sep 13 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Default
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No, evidently he is not familiar with this proverb.

Quote:
But this isn't SE's first time around the block. It's pretty darn naive to think they're just ignoring the bugs in FFXIV.


Oh... is it? I thought it was the other way round, hahahahaha! Stupid me!
#31 Sep 13 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
18 posts
Im excited to see what threads look like 3 weeks from now.

Being in software development for the last 5 years leads me to believe that all of the FFXIV defenders spouting "Its only beta!!!" are going to be eating crow and mighty dissapointed when the game is largely the same as it is now.

And yes I post on here because I care and want FFXIV to succeed. I want it to be known how dissapointed I am at the games current state. I want things to change and the sooner the better. Problem is SE dosnt care, at least right now, their focus is on getting this out for PC no matter what and finishing the PS3 version. Nothing major will change until both of those happen and by then the game will have such a bad rep and dwindiling subscription base SE wont be willing to invest the resources to clean it up.

#32 Sep 13 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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tennisfreak wrote:
Im excited to see what threads look like 3 weeks from now.

Being in software development for the last 5 years leads me to believe that all of the FFXIV defenders spouting "Its only beta!!!" are going to be eating crow and mighty dissapointed when the game is largely the same as it is now.

And yes I post on here because I care and want FFXIV to succeed. I want it to be known how dissapointed I am at the games current state. I want things to change and the sooner the better. Problem is SE dosnt care, at least right now, their focus is on getting this out for PC no matter what and finishing the PS3 version. Nothing major will change until both of those happen and by then the game will have such a bad rep and dwindiling subscription base SE wont be willing to invest the resources to clean it up.



And if that truly does happen I'll gladly eat my words. But if the opposite is true and SE quickly address all the issues are all the naysayers going to admit they were wrong? No one will know until the release dates arrive.
#33 Sep 13 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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There is one question I am beginning to wonder about. Sure there are issues with the gameplay itself but considering the experience with FFXI I am really wondering if any multiplatform game can truly succeed. Look at FFXIV. Its another console game running on a PC. Thats why the controls are clunky and thats why things like alt/tab never get fixed. World of Warcraft would be horrible on a console. but what would be worse is if it were ported from a console.
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#34 Sep 13 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
tennisfreak wrote:
Im excited to see what threads look like 3 weeks from now.

Being in software development for the last 5 years leads me to believe that all of the FFXIV defenders spouting "Its only beta!!!" are going to be eating crow and mighty dissapointed when the game is largely the same as it is now.

And yes I post on here because I care and want FFXIV to succeed. I want it to be known how dissapointed I am at the games current state. I want things to change and the sooner the better. Problem is SE dosnt care, at least right now, their focus is on getting this out for PC no matter what and finishing the PS3 version. Nothing major will change until both of those happen and by then the game will have such a bad rep and dwindiling subscription base SE wont be willing to invest the resources to clean it up.



And if that truly does happen I'll gladly eat my words. But if the opposite is true and SE quickly address all the issues are all the naysayers going to admit they were wrong? No one will know until the release dates arrive.


No, they'll just find something else to complain about Smiley: laugh
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#35 Sep 13 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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#36 Sep 13 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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Addyyuna wrote:
There is one question I am beginning to wonder about. Sure there are issues with the gameplay itself but considering the experience with FFXI I am really wondering if any multiplatform game can truly succeed. Look at FFXIV. Its another console game running on a PC. Thats why the controls are clunky and thats why things like alt/tab never get fixed. World of Warcraft would be horrible on a console. but what would be worse is if it were ported from a console.


By most standards, FFXI was a success. Sure, it wasn't WoW and it had problems, but it had 4 expansions, several mini expansions, and it is still going after 8 years with several content updates in the works. Why do you imply that it was a failure because it was a muliplatform game?
#37 Sep 13 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Being in software development for the last 5 years leads me to believe that all of the FFXIV defenders spouting "Its only beta!!!" are going to be eating crow and mighty dissapointed when the game is largely the same as it is now.


Well said. Anyone who has ever been involved in project management of a multi million dollar enterprise level project knows that what you are seeing right now is what they have. Realistically the game can't be saved at this point from a roll out perspective, there is simply no time. The damage to its reputation is already done.

Someone mentioned SE is innovating. There is nothing innovative about software built in 2010 that has a less intuitive interface than your average DOS programs made 25 years ago.

I want to stress again how much I wanted this game to succeed. I AM AMAZED at SE's incompetence after

1. Already building a MMO which they have ran for 8 years Normal enterprises hold regular lessons learned sessions after a project delivers and throughout its lifecycle as additional maintenance is performed (see expansions). It appears the person in charge of scheduling those over the past 8 years has been terminally out to lunch.
2. 8 years to watch the MMO market mature and evaluate what works and what doesn't from a LAUNCH perspective. If you want to innovate that is fantastic, but someone with a long term strategy for success would take gradual steps once the product was successful. This is Final Fantasy. It has (had.. the reputation has been getting worse as of late) a reputation. They could have sold it on the name alone and built a game using proven mechanics that work today. They could have then slowly changed the dynamics of the game to innovate, either on a test server, or in production and listened to user feedback for direction. This approach would have resulted in a far better launch, thus a much better chance for long term health of the subscription population and game.

It would do them well to hire a new chief communications officer. After the state of the open beta, the community needs some reassurance that they at least acknowledge the feedback that has been provided time and again on this title. Crickets is all we get.

In my company, we use General Motors of as an example of a corporation who had it all and due to their complicity and comfort coupled with terrible leadership allowed their brand to be driven into the ground (and by default their company). Perhaps game companies will be saying the same thing about SE after this.

Their approach has been nothing short of shocking.
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#38 Sep 13 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Teneleven wrote:
Greed is a harsh word, however relevant it may be.
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save FFXIV, but that other malfunctioning corporation called SquareEnix.
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#39 Sep 13 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
elm33 wrote:
Quote:
Being in software development for the last 5 years leads me to believe that all of the FFXIV defenders spouting "Its only beta!!!" are going to be eating crow and mighty dissapointed when the game is largely the same as it is now.


Well said. Anyone who has ever been involved in project management of a multi million dollar enterprise level project knows that what you are seeing right now is what they have. Realistically the game can't be saved at this point from a roll out perspective, there is simply no time. The damage to its reputation is already done.

Someone mentioned SE is innovating. There is nothing innovative about software built in 2010 that has a less intuitive interface than your average DOS programs made 25 years ago.

I want to stress again how much I wanted this game to succeed. I AM AMAZED at SE's incompetence after

1. Already building a MMO which they have ran for 8 years Normal enterprises hold regular lessons learned sessions after a project delivers and throughout its lifecycle as additional maintenance is performed (see expansions). It appears the person in charge of scheduling those over the past 8 years has been terminally out to lunch.
2. 8 years to watch the MMO market mature and evaluate what works and what doesn't from a LAUNCH perspective. If you want to innovate that is fantastic, but someone with a long term strategy for success would take gradual steps once the product was successful. This is Final Fantasy. It has (had.. the reputation has been getting worse as of late) a reputation. They could have sold it on the name alone and built a game using proven mechanics that work today. They could have then slowly changed the dynamics of the game to innovate, either on a test server, or in production and listened to user feedback for direction. This approach would have resulted in a far better launch, thus a much better chance for long term health of the subscription population and game.

It would do them well to hire a new chief communications officer. After the state of the open beta, the community needs some reassurance that they at least acknowledge the feedback that has been provided time and again on this title. Crickets is all we get.

In my company, we use General Motors of as an example of a corporation who had it all and due to their complicity and comfort coupled with terrible leadership allowed their brand to be driven into the ground (and by default their company). Perhaps game companies will be saying the same thing about SE after this.

Their approach has been nothing short of shocking.

I'd rate you up if I could. Unbiased level headed posts like this are a must. And difficult to argue against, because the apologists don't look at things from logical perspectives such as these
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#40 Sep 13 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Greed is a harsh word, however relevant it may be.
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save FFXIV, but that other malfunctioning corporation called SquareEnix.


gecko would take one look at this mess and treat this company the same way he wanted to treat bluestar. Liquidation
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#41 Sep 13 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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elm33 wrote:

Although I am sure the developers have the best intentions, I can't help but believe they have already sabotaged this game. I know that generally speaking, the attitude on all of the major forums is one of blind faith. "This is only beta, this is not release, quit passing judgement." That's all fine and well, you are welcome to keep deluding yourselves if that makes you feel better about this game but the simple truth is, if they had something better to offer, we would be playing it, because this open beta coupled with their total silence on all of the community complaints is not going to "sell this game" to anyone. I promise that in the grand scheme of things it is driving away more players than it has attracted.

They are clearly not particularly concerned about the PC audience. If they were, they would be advertising the game. They would be responding to the community. They are banking on the PS3 subs, who I am sure they consider a "different breed" of gamer, not akin to a PC user.

Sadly the paid beta begins on the 22nd. The game is launching in what I would call a state of quality that is around "Craft of Gods" or "Dawntide" perhaps just a twinge farther along than those games.

I was a true fan of FFXI. I embraced all of its flaws because it had soul. It had a certain magic about that was missing in other MMO's of the day, and of MMO's that I played later as well. It has pained me to play through this beta and see that they have taken several steps backwards from FFXI rather than forward, 8 years later.

Issues that should be resolved before any further damage is done:

1. Hardware Mouse (I do believe they are actually working on this due to the hack. If they are not, then they really do hate us.)
2. Menus should be moved to client side - the current lag in place is unacceptable, and this is not debug code causing this, its simply a bad idea with a bad implementation.
3. The current menu system is less intuitive than FFXI, which I did not really think was possible. This game has made me *embrace* the FFXI menu system, as it is truly awesome in responsiveness as well as layout and number of nested menus compared to FFXIV.
4. GuildLeve's - In particular the battlecraft ones are simply stupid. They would be so much better if they were more like missions, rather than go kill 3 of this and 4 of that. Perhaps puzzles involved, and so forth. I understand why they have implemented this, to appeal to casual players. The problem is, this game in its current state, is not something casual players are going to play.
5. Surplus system - This again seems like it was put in place for casual players. Very few casual players are going to be willing to put up with this anything but casual game given how its currently presented and interfaced.
6. Repetitive Zones - I like the vastness of the new zones. Too bad its the same 15 land patterns repeated over and over again, turned in different directions. You can walk for 30 minutes and it all just looks the same. I would rather have much smaller, FFXI sized zones, that are more varied, then vast expanses of the same thing.
7. Battle Regimen System - After spending a lot of time with people, on vent, trying to make this an effective system in party battle, it is really clear that it needs to be totally revamped. The Skillchain system from FFXI was pretty straight forward. This is a "version" of that system that is much harder to make useful, with several extra steps involved. Its not intuitive.
8. The repair system - I don't have a problem with the repair system, but the approach that has been taken here is counter productive to partying with others. I can live with it, but I don't think most people believe this is a good system.
9. No MP Regen - Of course we are too early in the game to know the ramifications of this. So far I have had no real issues with MP, of course I barely use my spells as a result of the current system as well, so I can't say I am a fan of it. Being required to either teleport back to a crystal or run to one when you need MP to keep your party running feels like eating a hamburger with ground up glass in it.
10. Retainer system - Craft based economy is not going to work effectively under the current market ward system. Half the time the retainers don't even all spawn. It is simply one of the foulest creations I have ever seen in a game. Please, bring back the standard auction house.
11. Party Invite System - For all its faults, the FFXI system "/search all 73-75" worked. It was not hard to use. Parties were not hard to build. The current system to look for people to group with is so bad, that I don't even try to use it anymore. It's no suprise people are not partying with each other, its near impossible to put one together unless its on the fly with people standing next to you.
12. Key bindings - I am having to run a 3rd party program just to use my arrow keys to drive the camera. Again this is just another step backwards.

You know why Apple computer is successful? They build slick, simple, highly intuitive user interfaces that your average dullard can step into with very little effort. I don't care for their wholly anti-consumer behavior and own nothing made by Apple, but I see why as a company they are successful.

I am not suggesting that FFXIV should be a simple game that any dullard can play. The thing that made FFXI rewarding, and kept me playing for years, was the soul crushing difficulty. The KEY difference is the difficulty I perceived there was FUN and PART OF THE GAME. In FFXIV, the difficulty starts just trying to interface the game, nevermind the game itself. Just trying to play it is challenging, without the first mob.

I know this post will be trolled to death and thats fine whatever. I only wrote this because I wanted this game to succeed so badly. It pains me to watch SE drive it face first into the ground before its even released. Word of mouth and Bad PR are killing this game and its solely due to its current state. The company is not doing anything to make us feel better. There is no hint that they are going listen to our feedback. I do not have "compliant mind" or whatever other eastern I'll take whatever you give me outlook on life. This is a global game, and most of the global market that has BUYING power, does not have "compliant mind" outlook. You cannot ignore your community and expect to be successful.

There is something strange going on at this company. Corporations want to make money, as much as possible. Everything they are currently doing is working against that desire. It simply makes no sense.

At any rate.. I hope it gets better, I hope they listen, and more than anything, I hope they respond to the community soon.

ciao






Rate up OP. You summed up pretty much all the issues I've experienced so far. Unfortunately, I don't think SE is going to address any of them for a long time.
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#42 Sep 13 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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The OP is objecting to FFXIV because it doesn't have that certain special magic? Talk about setting up an impossible criteria for success. Why not just accept that, just because you don't like this new game, that doesn't make it a bad game? It's a matter of personal preferences. It's not for everyone. If it's not for you, how about NOT trying to sabotage the launch for everyone else? That just seems a little petty and vindictive, to me.
#43 Sep 14 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Greed is a harsh word, however relevant it may be.
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save FFXIV, but that other malfunctioning corporation called SquareEnix.


I was going to make a long post about how I disagree, but I won't; I'll just disagree (not directed at you bsphil, but I don't think people here want to hear my philosophical ramblings on one word)

In any case greed in this specific case would cause SE to placate to the lowest of all common denominators. We in fact would have a generic MMO, possibly free yet with a RL money for gil/gear system, with all of the servers based in South Korea. ****, it might be a fun game, but it certainly wouldn't be anything special. And yet their greed would yield millions.

In short I'd argue ultimate greed entertains mediocrity, it is the passion for an idea itself that brings ultimate wealth and not love for the wealth itself. This is evident in advertising vs. editorial, artists vs. record companies, and here game designers vs. the corporation.

Though I can agree that a bit of greed (perhaps listening to someone who wants to gain more subscribers though a polished UI, for example) could make the game a bit more palatable to more people and would be a good thing, but giving in absolutely to greed would be a disaster.

And in that case I'd just call it common sense.





#44 Sep 14 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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1. Hardware Mouse (I do believe they are actually working on this due to the hack. If they are not, then they really do hate us.)

Agreed - lack of hardware mouse is, in my opinion currently the biggest issue with the game. I hated the idea of using a gamepad until i actually tried it, now I am a fully paid up member of the fan club - it makes this game rock.
2. Menus should be moved to client side - the current lag in place is unacceptable, and this is not debug code causing this, its simply a bad idea with a bad implementation.

It is usual for Beta menus to be server side so that the developers can see how people interact with the game. This is common in almost every beta and is usually changed for retail release. I wouldnt worry about this one as I think it very likely it will be changed for retail.

3. The current menu system is less intuitive than FFXI, which I did not really think was possible. This game has made me *embrace* the FFXI menu system, as it is truly awesome in responsiveness as well as layout and number of nested menus compared to FFXIV.

I hated the menu system til I started using a gamepad - changed the game, now I dont mind it - see point 1.

4. GuildLeve's - In particular the battlecraft ones are simply stupid. They would be so much better if they were more like missions, rather than go kill 3 of this and 4 of that. Perhaps puzzles involved, and so forth. I understand why they have implemented this, to appeal to casual players. The problem is, this game in its current state, is not something casual players are going to play.

People are hating on guildleves for all different reasons but the way i see it is if you liked FFXI but hate leves, just dont do them. No-one is forcing you. Personally I like that I can static party grind like FFXI if I want but whilst waiting for a pty I can knock out some leves. Again, if you hate them, play the game like you did XI and ignore them.

5. Surplus system - This again seems like it was put in place for casual players. Very few casual players are going to be willing to put up with this anything but casual game given how its currently presented and interfaced.

SE's stated intention years ago was that the armoury system would be used to encourage players to play different jobs. THis is the embodiment of that way to play the game. I have no problem with it - but then I am interested in playing multiple jobs and crafting etc. If you just want to power level to the cap, then this isnt the game for you. I hope you can find one that is.

6. Repetitive Zones - I like the vastness of the new zones. Too bad its the same 15 land patterns repeated over and over again, turned in different directions. You can walk for 30 minutes and it all just looks the same. I would rather have much smaller, FFXI sized zones, that are more varied, then vast expanses of the same thing.

Agree with this in general, but it just looks so pretty I dont mind so much.

7. Battle Regimen System - After spending a lot of time with people, on vent, trying to make this an effective system in party battle, it is really clear that it needs to be totally revamped. The Skillchain system from FFXI was pretty straight forward. This is a "version" of that system that is much harder to make useful, with several extra steps involved. Its not intuitive.

Just because you cant do it - doesnt make it bad! Perhaps SE want people to work things out rather than have them on the plate. You have been spoiled by games like WoW (no hate, I play WoW) where it is all easy. Suddenly something is difficult so you start hating on it.

8. The repair system - I don't have a problem with the repair system, but the approach that has been taken here is counter productive to partying with others. I can live with it, but I don't think most people believe this is a good system.

Its ok - npc repairs are cheap as chips so Im not really worried.

9. No MP Regen - Of course we are too early in the game to know the ramifications of this. So far I have had no real issues with MP, of course I barely use my spells as a result of the current system as well, so I can't say I am a fan of it. Being required to either teleport back to a crystal or run to one when you need MP to keep your party running feels like eating a hamburger with ground up glass in it.

This is a key issue but since we dont really know what skills will enable mana regen later in the game it is a bit premature to complain too much.

10. Retainer system - Craft based economy is not going to work effectively under the current market ward system. Half the time the retainers don't even all spawn. It is simply one of the foulest creations I have ever seen in a game. Please, bring back the standard auction house.

AH was not in FFXI at release. Dont worry, AH will be in the game soon.

11. Party Invite System - For all its faults, the FFXI system "/search all 73-75" worked. It was not hard to use. Parties were not hard to build. The current system to look for people to group with is so bad, that I don't even try to use it anymore. It's no suprise people are not partying with each other, its near impossible to put one together unless its on the fly with people standing next to you.

Not sure what will be implemented in final release but you are right this is an issue.


12. Key bindings - I am having to run a 3rd party program just to use my arrow keys to drive the camera. Again this is just another step backwards

I know you will hate me for suggesting it (i hated myself at first) but seriously, buy a gamepad. I cannot describe how much better the world is.

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#45 Sep 14 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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@HallieXIV I won't spend the space re-quoting the above but I did want to address some of your feedback. I appreciate your thoughts.

Concerning the mouse / gamepad: I have played this game 4 ways, with a PS3 controller using the motionjoy drivers, with the mouse/keyboard combo, and with the keyboard alone. For the keyboard alone I have tried using their default key config, and I have also used a 3rd party program to remap IJKL to the arrow keys for a more intuitive interface. For me, the way to play this game is with the keyboard almost exclusively using the arrow keys for camera control. I do like to use the mouse for crafting and or interfacing with npc's. I appreciate the gamepad aspect, but it's not for me. A game being put out by a company with the legacy and history should be able to accommodate multiple control configurations. This is basic stuff.

Concerning Menus: I have played in many beta's, and this is the first one I have played in where all interactions were server side, or at bare minimum, the first one I played where I noticed it. I would love for you to elaborate on what other games used this server side menu system in beta? Beyond that, If the menu's were moved client side, it still does not resolve the unnecessarily nested menu's. Many things are taking 5 steps which should take only 2 (see selling an item to npc or crafting an item). The menu system IS less intuitive then FFXI which is close to a decade old, so regardless of server side or client side, they still need severe attention.

Concerning GuildLeve's: Fair enough, no argument there, just feels like a missed opportunity. As far as static grinding, I don't mind to PUG grind at all, and don't really want to keep a "static" schedule. Setting that aside, the fact that "partying" with others currently causes you to level up more slowly than soloing in the game design. I imagine they will address this.

Concerning Surplus: I am cool with the system for the most part. My orignal comment did not demonize it other than to say, if the intention was to appeal to casual players (ironically by holding everyone else back) I don't see the point, because most people who play casually are not going to play this game based on its current state of complexity and laggard performance. I do think that since I am paying to play, I should be able to grind Thaumaturge to max level if I want to, gimping myself all the while. Its not something I would do because it does not make sense, but the goal is to appeal to multiple play styles, not alienate one audience to satisfy a smaller demographic (i.e. casual players in this case, because they are not going to play en masse). It is the same stupidity that Funcom did with Age Of Conan. They made huge number of bad decisions based on the desires of the PVP audience, when it only constituted ~8% of their player base, alienating the other 92%. They subsequently went on to further alienate the PVP audience by making it to where you don't even have to PVP to get PVP level 10, so they have alienated everyone, but thats a topic for another forum.

Concering repetitive zones: They are pretty......boring after a while.

Concerning Battle Regimen: I have no problem with reasonable level of difficulty. As I stated in my original post, I enjoyed FFXI's level of difficulty. The point of this was that the Battle Regimen system feels like several steps BACKWARDS from the skill chain system.

Concerning repairs: I have to wonder how much and/or for what length of time you have played the beta based on your comments. I can have my weapon down to "red" in 45 minutes. If you were to be in a party, in a remote place, are you going to warp/run back to town to repair your weapon? It is just an additional layer of complexity that was poorly thought out. I'm not opposed to repair systems, just this one in its current implementation.

Concerning MP: I acknowledged that we don't fully know the ramifications of this yet in my original post.

Concerning Auction House: Let's hope you are right!

Concerning the Party System: We agree! Man this system needs a dirt nap and fast.

There were numerous other issues I failed to note in my original post which give me pause but have been covered ad nauseam on this and the other forums.

For the record, and since you went there, I was never "spoiled by WoW". I played vanilla WoW for about 2 weeks back in late 2004 or early 2005, I can't recall now but it was near the games release. I never enjoyed the game, the interface it offered, or otherwise. I subsequently gave my copy to a friend who went on to play it for years. I am not a WoW disciple nor do I hate it, it just wasn't for me. I did play Age Of Conan for around 3.5 months which as I understand it is fairly similar to WoW as far as interface and general lack of challenge, and quit playing with 3 characters @ level 80 and one of them in almost full T2 raid gear,in three and a half months. I also briefly played Aion, which felt just like AoC but crashed less, and was even more linear, so that only lasted about a month. Conversely, I played FFXI for 4 years.

I am up for the challenge, but I need Square Enix to meet me (..us..) half way.

Thanks for your thoughtful commentary though, It was a good read.







____________________________
#46 Sep 14 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
Kierk wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Greed is a harsh word, however relevant it may be.
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save FFXIV, but that other malfunctioning corporation called SquareEnix.


I was going to make a long post about how I disagree, but I won't; I'll just disagree (not directed at you bsphil, but I don't think people here want to hear my philosophical ramblings on one word)

In any case greed in this specific case would cause SE to placate to the lowest of all common denominators. We in fact would have a generic MMO, possibly free yet with a RL money for gil/gear system, with all of the servers based in South Korea. ****, it might be a fun game, but it certainly wouldn't be anything special. And yet their greed would yield millions.

In short I'd argue ultimate greed entertains mediocrity, it is the passion for an idea itself that brings ultimate wealth and not love for the wealth itself. This is evident in advertising vs. editorial, artists vs. record companies, and here game designers vs. the corporation.

Though I can agree that a bit of greed (perhaps listening to someone who wants to gain more subscribers though a polished UI, for example) could make the game a bit more palatable to more people and would be a good thing, but giving in absolutely to greed would be a disaster.

And in that case I'd just call it common sense.
It's a movie quote, slightly altered for relevance. Just in case you didn't know. If you did and still disagree with the point (I do as well) that's fine.



Edited, Sep 14th 2010 1:32pm by bsphil
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#47 Sep 14 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Solimurr wrote:
The OP is objecting to FFXIV because it doesn't have that certain special magic? Talk about setting up an impossible criteria for success. Why not just accept that, just because you don't like this new game, that doesn't make it a bad game? It's a matter of personal preferences. It's not for everyone. If it's not for you, how about NOT trying to sabotage the launch for everyone else? That just seems a little petty and vindictive, to me.


All I can say is that if you think my post, is going to sabotage the launch for everyone else, then you sir, are a fool. Square Enix has done a fine job of sabotaging the lauch on their own. Giving people close to 30 days to see how bad the current game is speaks volumes by itself, without my input.

My post was made in the hopes that someone at SE would read it and go "you know what, we really need to communicate with our community, and give them a little hope" because I want the game to succeed, not fail. If I wanted it to fail, I certainly wouldn't bother writing about it guy, I just would have played the beta and said "wow this is crap" and moved on.




Edited, Sep 14th 2010 2:35pm by elm33
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#48 Sep 14 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Kierk wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
Greed is a harsh word, however relevant it may be.
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save FFXIV, but that other malfunctioning corporation called SquareEnix.


I was going to make a long post about how I disagree, but I won't; I'll just disagree (not directed at you bsphil, but I don't think people here want to hear my philosophical ramblings on one word)

In any case greed in this specific case would cause SE to placate to the lowest of all common denominators. We in fact would have a generic MMO, possibly free yet with a RL money for gil/gear system, with all of the servers based in South Korea. ****, it might be a fun game, but it certainly wouldn't be anything special. And yet their greed would yield millions.

In short I'd argue ultimate greed entertains mediocrity, it is the passion for an idea itself that brings ultimate wealth and not love for the wealth itself. This is evident in advertising vs. editorial, artists vs. record companies, and here game designers vs. the corporation.

Though I can agree that a bit of greed (perhaps listening to someone who wants to gain more subscribers though a polished UI, for example) could make the game a bit more palatable to more people and would be a good thing, but giving in absolutely to greed would be a disaster.

And in that case I'd just call it common sense.
It's a movie quote, slightly altered for relevance. Just in case you didn't know. If you did and still disagree with the point (I do as well) that's fine.



Edited, Sep 14th 2010 1:32pm by bsphil



Ahh, now it's coming together. LOL

I've only seen bits and pieces of the movie though. But I have seen Michael Douglas say the greed is good speech, I just was thrown off by the context.



Edited, Sep 14th 2010 2:35pm by Kierk
#49 Sep 14 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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Elm33

Thanks for comments, some right back atcha!

Gamepad v Keyboard and mouse. I hate the fact that SE in this day and age dont give the player the choice. I have always played k&m and saw no reason why I should change. But once I did, a lot of my frustrations with the game disappeared. That said, agree with your comment. I dont understand why SE could not provide sufficient customisation to let the player play as he/she chooses to.

Regarding server siding of menus, mouse control etc. It was a long time ago but I am pretty sure FFXI beta had all this server side. I have been told that vanilla WoW is similar. I am not willing to give up on FFXIV (yet) until retail release. As for menu nesting - it gives the game an old school RPG feel that some people like, some hate - I personally quite like it but take your comments on board.

Otherwise, I think you and I agree on much and other are just personal preference.

I do, however, unreservedly apologise for "going there"! On re-reading my post, I did have a bit of a pop on a couple of occasions. I had been reading so much negativity about the game, which frustrated me given that this is a much more complete launch than say FFXI, or even more recently, Aion or dare I say it Vanilla WoW. At launch, pretty much all MMO's struggle - but they get better with time. My frustration is with a large part of community wanting this to be perfect out of the box and flaming rather than providing constructive commentary.

Your comments were constructive - they just copped my anger at many others that were not!
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#50 Sep 14 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Default
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If some of you buy this game you should be slapped so hard your mommas nose bleeds. Stop crying on every QQ thread and stop playin it already. Christ! This game is turning out good. it is VERY clear that most of you have never tested a game where you were aware what was happening. FFXIV does a simple stress test and some generic balancing and this place blows up with an amount of QQ that seems like it spewed right from the wow paladin forums. The complaints? The same thing as the last thread.... the same thing they just addressed today or things that have no bearing on anything as the final results haven't even been added to the game. That or people are just plain unobservant and don't see that most mmos are built with repeated textures. Also, Macro game needs macros. amazing huh. You show me a good game that wasn't like this at the start and I'll show you a player who wasn't there at the start. LOTRO being the exception to that. That game was fail in it's own unique way tho. LOL ironforge.

Also lol @ the people saying SE isn't listening to player feedback.
#51 Sep 14 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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By way of example.

Biggest "issue" with the game 2 weeks ago was that casters did not get exp for healing. Everyone cried, the sky was falling, groups would not work.

Sure enough, 2 weeks later, in a small patch and without fanfare - healers now get exp for healing pty members.

SE fix it, no-one notices.

3 weeks ago, biggest issue was that there was no incentive to party. THen a few people in beta actaully reached level 12 / 13 and realised that at this level, it is much better exp per hour to group and kill tough mobs. Issue resolved, people stopped crying.

SE fix it!

Most "issues" with the game are personal preference, those that appear fundemental are being ticked off one by one by SE despite the fact we are still in beta.
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