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FFXIV world map uses excessive copy/pastingFollow

#1 Sep 12 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Default
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http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=16530434&postcount=1596

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 1:46am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#2 Sep 12 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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already covered in a thread no more than 2 days old!!!
#3 Sep 12 2010 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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victrix82 wrote:
already covered in a thread no more than 2 days old!!!


^this

To the OP: Thank you for trying to bring new info to the table though. By the way the search function is now active for non-premium members... just throwing that in there :)

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 12:30am by sima2
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#4 Sep 12 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Default
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When a game looks this good its ok to copy and paste. They earned it.
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#5 Sep 12 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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Uh....welcome to Game development? Seriously this is industry standard stuff, doubly so in MMO's.

That's the response in the exact post you lined to. And it's correct. Thread over.
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#6 Sep 12 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Default
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Well it's obvious they didn't put much effort on the terrain, ya know. Anyone can clearly see that. At first to me it was a big deal, but meh, what can ya do about it really? :D
#7 Sep 12 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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who cares and do you even notice it when not looking into the map.
all games do this, with such huge environment, its almost impossible and inefficient to make art only "ONCE", i'd go insane! (im a 3d env artist myself).

why does ppl complain about everything.
#8 Sep 12 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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Well it's obvious they didn't put much effort on the terrain, ya know. Anyone can clearly see that. At first to me it was a big deal, but meh, what can ya do about it really? :D

Wrong. This system permitted them to spend MORE time on each inch of terrain, because the artist could spend more time refining each individual section, rather than having to manually make the whole map in one piece by hand, placing bushes, trees, roots, making sure texture stretch correctly on the terrain, forming terrain, testing navigation etc.

I have worked on many games past gen and next gen. Every. single. one. builds the world out of repeating parts. It is not phoning it in, it's good design and time management. I know what I'm talking about, making those 'parts' is my business.

Here you have 2 pros (+1 in that thread) telling you it's not lazy, it's standard practice. Still gonna insist?



Edited, Sep 13th 2010 1:03am by RattyBatty
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#9 Sep 12 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I know what you mean, but you can't really do much about it.... unless ur his boss ya know :D even then... there's a deadline that's coming up soon haha... could u manage it yourself if u were in charge of that task? (making sure every terrain section isn't so repetitive) :)

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 1:20am by Rainjur
#10 Sep 13 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Minecraft.

Just wanted to be devils advocate. In reality, it's not a huge deal. I mean, it takes a good 20 minutes to walk from one end to the other of Gridania's zone... end to end. Cause it takes around 11min to walk from Gridania down to the Thanalan zone entrance, which is half the height approx. of the rest of the map.

I wouldn't want to make it completely random. Besides, i want to see the japanese kids that came up with that 'same graphic' colored map, go do that with the Gridania map LOL
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#11Lobivopis, Posted: Sep 13 2010 at 5:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) (site is NSFW)
#12 Sep 13 2010 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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i would have never notice that if it wasnt pointed out and im betting most ppl wouldnt have ether
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#13 Sep 13 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly i really could care less. Yes less copy/paste would be great but i am more worried about HOW the game plays and if it is fun for me.

If it is not fun or there are to many bugs and what not a colorful pile of dogsh*t is still a pile of dogsh*t.

Here's to hoping that XIV is not a colorful pile of crap.
#14 Sep 13 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ggrab wrote:
i would have never notice that if it wasnt pointed out and im betting most ppl wouldnt have ether


I noticed it pretty quickly, though it doesn't bother me. Especially near Gridania I think it helps create more of a forest maze feeling. Kinda works with the theme of a town hidden away deep in the forest.
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#15 Sep 13 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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wait wait wait hold on... copy pasted terrain? That is the last straw. Consider my pre order canceled as of right now. /sarcasm
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#16 Sep 13 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow. Don't ******* play the game if you don't like it. Jesus ******* Christ. I'm going to go rate down mode on all the complaint threads now. I don't even care if they're legit.
#17 Sep 13 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wonder who actually spends their time traveling the in-game world or looking at the map, looking for stuff like this: I hope they're at least paid to do it.

Otherwise, jesus -- lighten up. Copy & paste isn't the end of the world.

#18 Sep 13 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I personally hate how the real world copies and pastes stoplights every 5 blocks at intersections.
#19 Sep 13 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Excenmille wrote:

Wow. Don't @#%^ing play the game if you don't like it. Jesus @#%^ing Christ. I'm going to go rate down mode on all the complaint threads now. I don't even care if they're legit.


You know, if you're going to go around violating the forum rules, probably not wise to broadcast your intent like that.

Just sayin'.
#20 Sep 13 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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ghosthacked wrote:
I wonder who actually spends their time traveling the in-game world or looking at the map, looking for stuff like this: I hope they're at least paid to do it.

Otherwise, jesus -- lighten up. Copy & paste isn't the end of the world.



People frothing at the mouth to do anything in their power to make FFXIV seem worse than it is. Because you know, I bet no other developer does this whatsoever /sarcasm.
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#21 Sep 13 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm glad you could contribute your own opinion and discussion instead of just making a thread with a link in it.

troll elsewhere.
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#22Lobivopis, Posted: Sep 14 2010 at 7:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't think that's actually possible.
#23 Sep 14 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
Why are people telling the OP to 'lighten up'? All he did was comment on the copy paste.
He is not displaying anger or nerdrage or whatnot. He did not act like it was the 'end of the world'.

;/

EDIT: FFS< he didnt even SAY anything. How can you people flame someone for being 'angry' when he didnt even write anything? -.-

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 9:57pm by DirectorCobbs
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#24 Sep 14 2010 at 8:17 PM Rating: Default
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Lobivopis wrote:
Procedurally generated environments - now for static content! The good ol' "one and done".



Edited, Sep 14th 2010 9:18pm by bsphil
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#25 Sep 14 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I would have to agree that having posted nothing but a link really doesn't deserve all that heat.

Having said that, here's some fuel for your flame.

I find that it's 100% reasonable to be of the mindset that seeing the same exact formations, landscapes, and whathaveyou over and over out in a world contained within what is supposed to be one of, if not THE most immersive MMOs of recent years is somewhat boring.

I personally don't feel it's reason to up and quit, nor do most, but the bottom line is that it exists to a degree which is currently very noticeable, and for me most certainly detracts from immersion.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video/xiv-7-city-slicker/2010/09

Episode 7 there touches on it. He pretty much hits exactly how I feel about it. While certainly the game is playable, it most definitely detracts from the game's immersion when you see the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, abd I really hope they fix it to some degree for release.



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#26 Sep 14 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Default
Im surprised i haven't seen a thread like this earlier.

Im not complaining but ive noticed tons of the same land curves, indents, arrangements and copies of the same model everywhere. This is very evident even on the mini map.
No biggie but just a little funny.
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#27 Sep 14 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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It doesn't really bother me. When it's laid out like that it doesn't look good but in game, at least for me, it's not that noticeable.
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#28 Sep 14 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you all are missing the bigger picture. It isn't just the 'map'. Watch near the end of that link I posted above. The reference is actually a BFF movie clip. It's very, very noticeable out the in the 'real world'.

Will try and get the time on that...

It's at 35:00.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 10:48pm by Alabazman
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#29 Sep 14 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Default
Illicious wrote:
Im surprised i haven't seen a thread like this earlier.

Im not complaining but ive noticed tons of the same land curves, indents, arrangements and copies of the same model everywhere. This is very evident even on the mini map.
No biggie but just a little funny.

You must've missed the "copy my pasta" thread, I got just as big a cashing for posting it here. :P
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#30 Sep 14 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Default
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Heh copy and pasta...

Yeah, same reference as I'm talking about.
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#31 Sep 14 2010 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
Re: the video posted above (http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video/xiv-7-city-slicker/2010/09/comment-page-1#comment-952)

for those who want to view the discussion, skip to 35:00 into the video. This is how we feel about it. We'll let him be our voice.


Edited, Sep 14th 2010 11:12pm by DirectorCobbs
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#32 Sep 14 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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RattyBatty wrote:
it's not lazy, it's standard practice.


Why can laziness not be a standard practise? In many cases it certainly seems to be. o_O

Additionally, it may be wise to consider how an action's excellence does not rise in proportion to the number who take part in it.

As it applies to the discussion, I am, and will continue to be, more impressed with a game world when it is laboriously, dedicatedly, and lovingly sculpted than when it adheres to "standard practise" and merely "passing standards."
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#33 Sep 15 2010 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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Ever notice how every Caves and Inns in WoW are layout the same way?

But how dare they tried to conserve workload! They should design every snowflakes and grain of dusts to be different.
#34 Sep 15 2010 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I enjoy the defense of the "industry experts who are pro terrain artists and do this stuff all the time so know 10 billion times more than anyone else"....

First off - you should take time to actually do some research and look into the "copy/paste" parts before lashing out that you know everything and for the little people to shut up. Most gaming companies use the duplicated building blocks as a skeletal base; after which they "dress it" in different clothing to make it not so noticable(not all, but the majority).

I believe the primary complaint here is NOT the re-use of these building blocks, but the fact that (contrary to your arguement of "it gave the artists time to refine things")... they did not dress it up. So, it's the EXACT same building block placed somewhere else... not even trying to hide it by changing the color of the tree to Red.. or heck, removing the tree one out of 10 times.

It's plain and simple lazy lazy lazy world map design.

Also - if you are going to argue that it's good time management, then back that up by giving me some insight as to what exactly they spent their saved time on. Are you really going to call this a next-gen MMO?

No - i'm not a WoW fanboy.. if anything i'm a DAOC fanboy... which did re-use the same cave systems for dungeons, but they at least took the time to add some cobwebs... skulls on the ground.. different lighting etc.. so you didn't have Deja'Vu evertime you walked into the copy/pasted dungeons.

#35 Sep 15 2010 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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This doesn't bother me as long as it's done well and things aren't repeated too many times, especially If it makes content easier to produce and lets them put out updates and expansions more frequently than they were able to in FFXI.
#36 Sep 15 2010 at 5:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure how anyone can defend this...
They call this world "seamless?" I would rather we have zoning instead of this crap. FFXI did everything right when it came down to the world even if there was zoning...
This...SE bragged about their environment...I just don't see the effort here.
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#37 Sep 15 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
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its not like re-use of game and graphical resources is a new thing. walk into any given cave in WoW from 1-60 and there's a decent chance you'll which "type" of cave it is (out of about three).

thats not laziness on the part of the developers, despite what people say. thats just re-using texture detail and graphical landscapes for areas that would be repetitive anyway (caves are kinda boring as it is, forests too for that matter....just a bunch of friggin' greens and browns everywhere).
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#38 Sep 15 2010 at 5:51 AM Rating: Default
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Recycling plants trees and other set pieces is acceptable. Recycling terrain is also acceptable provided it's not too close together and you mix up the set pieces placed on it and change the textures around so it doesn't look absolutely identical. Recycling entire chunks of terrain including the plants trees and textures with no changes at all right next to each other on the map is not acceptable.

It's not the recycling that's the problem, it's the overuse and laziness i.e. not changing the individual elements around but rather just reusing identical landscapes over and over.


If FFXI managed to avoid this then I don't see how it can be excused in FFXIV.



Edited, Sep 15th 2010 8:58am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#39 Sep 15 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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I don't really see how comparing WoW's buildings really has anything to do with this. Firstly, anytime WoW is brought up in these forums is bashed into next week. Now it's being defended essentially.

Secondly, in terms of reallism, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that when a race of people build structures, they have their own sense of architecture, and for buildings and such to have similarities. Also, when you're going to compare structures, we already see that sort of thing in towns like Gridania, where all of the huts in the 'streets' are the same model, and most of the buildings are scaled versions of a similar (round) model.

But when it comes to nature, and being out in the world, I really don't see how any argument applies. The bottem line is that there is simply an over abundance of re-used tiles, and that they are blatantly obvious.

Of course this is common practice in an mmo this large, how can it not be. But imo they should have done a better job of hiding it. I don't really see why everyone's got their panties in a bunch about this. Why not demand excellence for your hard earned money? Will you get it right now? Probably not. But at least let them know that you know, and perhaps with the first expansion they'll spend some extra time making these new areas that much more spectacular.
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#40 Sep 15 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's amazing how many people needed a post on the internet to notice this, and then they get all up in arms about it. I've been playing since Phase 3 and have NEVER noticed it. Not an issue as far as I'm concerned.
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#41 Sep 15 2010 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Ever notice how every Caves and Inns in WoW are layout the same way?

But how dare they tried to conserve workload! They should design every snowflakes and grain of dusts to be different.


The funny thing about all this is how a few years ago all of the FFXI zam users bashed WoW for copy and pasting alot of the terrain / etc while claiming the SE takes the time to make every map unique.

Anyway, it happens. I'm certainly more open to copy / pasting man made objects (mines / houses for example) because those things generally follow templates. Open world stuff, well its not a game breaker but it certainly doesn't help immersion.
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#42 Sep 15 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't been able to play much, but I noticed it too. I've only really explored Thanalan, but it's so bad there. The zone is so big you almost have to check your map, and when you check your map, you notice how everything looks the same.

These zones are just too big. Thanalan is like, the size of the entire Gustaberg-Konschtat-Palborough-Dangruf Wadi region. But there's no variety. In FFXI I could learn my way around without the map, because everything looked different. You had a few hills in Gustaberg that looked the same, but they were spaced so far apart that they couldn't possibly confuse you.

In addition to the repetition of terrain parts, there's no variety in the actual style of the zone. Thanalan is a gigantic, overwhelming wasteland. In that same amount of space in FFXI, you had two smaller "wasteland/desert" type zones, a more colorful hot spring oasis type zone, and a large deciduous valley. There were two mines here (or three, if you count the Moblin mines), but they each entirely different atmospheres. Thanalan is just a huge expanse of sameness.

Don't get me wrong, the world is beautiful. Absolutely stunning. But there's just not enough variety. No landmarks. No real way to know where you are without checking your map. It can be frustrating. And it's something I think they could have done better.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 9:00am by Ruinaru
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#43 Sep 15 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Default
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Let me just repeat myself in case others don't care to read entire posts.

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I don't really see why everyone's got their panties in a bunch about this. Why not demand excellence for your hard earned money? Will you get it right now? Probably not. But at least let them know that you know, and perhaps with the first expansion they'll spend some extra time making these new areas that much more spectacular.
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#44 Sep 15 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Best part is, the ones saying this is a problem I can guarantee can't do any better.
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#45 Sep 15 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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I know I can't do better. I've only just started delving into the world of game design. But I know THEY can do better. They proved it with XI.
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#46 Sep 15 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Best part is, the ones saying this is a problem I can guarantee can't do any better.

I fail to see how this has any relevance. Were not allowed to critique now?
Stay classy.
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#47 Sep 15 2010 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Best part is, the ones saying this is a problem I can guarantee can't do any better.


Are you kidding me? THis is my point. Dumb *** comments like this.

If you and a friend go buy a product from the store, and one of you really likes it, and one of you finds it could be improved in some way - would you tell him to go and fix it himself? What's wrong with you?

Companies providing products and services RELY on feedback from customers to make products better. How else would they ever really progress?

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#48lambon, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 7:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're wasting your time. Ever try telling Christians there is no such thing as God?
#49 Sep 15 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:

You're wasting your time. Ever try telling Christians there is no such thing as God?
To each his own of course.


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#50 Sep 15 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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You're wasting your time. Ever try telling Christians there is no such thing as God?
To each his own of course.


The only difference is, SE is trying to make a game that people will like and continue to play for a long time. If they don't get feedback, they'll keep churning out the same mediocre products. It's not like criticizing the terrain in FXIV is an insult to their morals and ideals.

This is in no way like "telling Christians there is no God."
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#51 Sep 15 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Ruinaru wrote:
Quote:
You're wasting your time. Ever try telling Christians there is no such thing as God?
To each his own of course.


The only difference is, SE is trying to make a game that people will like and continue to play for a long time. If they don't get feedback, they'll keep churning out the same mediocre products. It's not like criticizing the terrain in FXIV is an insult to their morals and ideals.

This is in no way like "telling Christians there is no God."


Think it was an insult at people defending SE because they worship SE kinda thing. Not directed at SE. Though I guess it would be more like telling Christians that God is evil or really bad at his job, rather than he doesn't exist.

Not sure why I'm bothering to add to that, but for some reason I couldn't resist...

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 9:49am by TwistedOwl
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