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class XP system - complete rework needed?Follow

#1 Sep 13 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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So, here is my experience in the game as relates to class XP.

If I hit a mob with a weathered spear, I have a chance to get a range of Lancer XP. This is not based on damage how much damage I do per hit. If I hit a mob for 20, it's the same range of XP as when I hit it for 650. So if I am trying to level my class, I want to do the least amount of damage per swing, with the most swings possible in order to get the most chances at skillups. That is a problem.

Next, I get a bronze spear and figure that I'm going to do some serious damage! So, I notice I still get the same range of skillups. So, the mob dies faster, but my class XP suffers because I have less chance at skillups because I swing less times due doing more damage per swing.

So, in order to level, I have no incentive to upgrade my weapon, and I have no incentive to use any of my abilities. In order to most efficiently level, I need to spam my 1 key over and over my entire career... That seems very flawed.
#2 Sep 13 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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I agree, I find myself as THM casting poison dart over and over very boring. I think if you have a better weapon you should get better skillups. thats just IMO
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#3 Sep 13 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I actually have not had this problem. With my CON, I tend to get more exp soloing from a single hit with a Fire, then with 15 hits with a dart (dart giving 10-50 exp every 5-10 hits, and Fire giving 150-300 exp every 2-4 hits).

Still have no idea how the exp balances out, but I do get the exp procing more often the closer to even (or higher) the mob might be. Mobs I dart for 100+ dmg rarely give me more then 10 exp when it proces, and only 40-50 exp from fire. And those mobs I can ussually kill with 2 casts of fire.
#4 Sep 13 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I have an awesome computer, super fast internet(wired), and I have a **** of a time trying to cast spells. either the game is buggy/laggy or im just retarded.
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#5 Sep 13 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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Don't forget that if you kill faster there are more chances for mob kill exp. But if you are killing mobs so quickly that you often don't get any weapon skill during the fight, it's probably time to move on to a higher level camp.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 3:08pm by Hydragyrum
#6 Sep 13 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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When I leveled Conjurer back in the closed beta, I was getting more class exp overall from Spirit Dart than I was from casting spells. Considering the time required to cast, spells were only really useful for an initial attack or doing AoE damage. Especially because if I was casting too much, I'd have to run back to the aetheryte to refill my MP. ¬_¬

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 3:00pm by bsphil
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#7 Sep 13 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I still haven't quite figured out why some fights I get no skillups and then amazing exp from the next one though.

Just did 6 fights against 5 yellow Thickshells, and 1 blue Land Angler in the middle...
On the Thickshells I got 419, 332, 140, 500, 173
Easy Land Angler: 245

It's definitely sporadic at best, and this example didn't show it but sometimes I've gotten 0 class exp on tough fights...

These were all done on conjurer with spiritbind & nuking my *** off by the way...killing asap...



Edited, Sep 13th 2010 4:10pm by TwistedOwl
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#8 Sep 13 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Whenever I start to take note of the skill points gained, I always start having this feeling that it just depends on how lucky I am.

Though I think higher difficulty mobs tend to give out more potential exp (for example, I would gain 78+ exp with a green mob and only 60-ish for blue mobs). However, if you are unlucky that your attack doesn't hit the lottery, it doesn't really matter what mobs you are killing at all.

I really don't think I like the idea of this lottery roll on skill points while I will always get exp points. :/
#9 Sep 13 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually when testing out how THM skills would work on a MAR I got some axe skill ups while casting spells. O_o

Though it might've been from Steadfast.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 4:17pm by BRizzl3
#10 Sep 13 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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BRizzl3 wrote:
Actually when testing out how THM skills would work on a MAR I got some axe skill ups while casting spells. O_o

Though it might've been from Steadfast.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 4:17pm by BRizzl3


Might sound a little strange, but if your active class is Marauder at that moment, I don't see why you wouldn't get Marauder class points.
#11 Sep 13 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Might sound a little strange, but if your active class is Marauder at that moment, I don't see why you wouldn't get Marauder class points.


I guess I thought this thread was about having to use your weapon abilities to get skill ups?

#12 Sep 13 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
You get skillups for whatever you do as your class, not using certain class abilities.

you can be a conjurer and use thaum spells, and still level up as a conjurer.
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#13 Sep 13 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Default
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yes. They problem is that the amount of damage you do does not have an effect on the skillup amount. Therefore, it behooves you to use the weakest weapon possible, and the worst damaging skill in order to maximize class XP. I really hope they don't release like this. :(
#14 Sep 13 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, I think what you're saying is that high damage has the same rough skill gain as low damage. In that case, low damage means that you can get more skillups per mob, but take longer killing that mob. it will save you small amounts of time, more time if there is a lack of mobs. But if there are plenty of things to kill, you're better off killing more of them and getting more loot.
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#15 Sep 13 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Verax606 wrote:
yes. They problem is that the amount of damage you do does not have an effect on the skillup amount. Therefore, it behooves you to use the weakest weapon possible, and the worst damaging skill in order to maximize class XP. I really hope they don't release like this. :(


Is the alternative getting exp proportional to skill damage? Wouldn't it be easy to exploit that?
#16 Sep 13 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Is the alternative getting exp proportional to skill damage? Wouldn't it be easy to exploit that?


One alternative would be to scrap the way it is now, and do class XP just like regular XP. Give a set amount per mob. That would also make grouping better, as there would be a reason to heal and buff. As it stands now, no one wants to take on those roles in groups, because they will not get any skillups. :(

<edit - grammar>


Edited, Sep 13th 2010 5:17pm by Verax606
#17 Sep 13 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
Actually, I think what you're saying is that high damage has the same rough skill gain as low damage. In that case, low damage means that you can get more skillups per mob, but take longer killing that mob. it will save you small amounts of time, more time if there is a lack of mobs. But if there are plenty of things to kill, you're better off killing more of them and getting more loot.


Yeah, you have the gist of it. At lower levels, I think your logic is sound. You would probably only kill 20% or so faster if you went all out, vs. "sandbagging" for skills.

At higher levels however, is where this begins to breakdown. If I have much better weapons available, and have an ******* of skills, you begin to have the ability to kill much faster. At level 13/16 currently, I can probably kill 4-5 times faster if I try to do damage, versus if I want skillups I can equip my starter weapon and don't use all my higher level skills. Finding concentrations of mobs that high would be tough.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 5:05pm by Verax606
#18 Sep 13 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
Verax606 wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Is the alternative getting exp proportional to skill damage? Wouldn't it be easy to exploit that?


One alternative would be to scrap the way it is now, and do class XP just like regular XP. Give a set amount per mob. That would also make grouping better, as there would be a reason to heal buff. As it stands now, no one wants to take on those roles in groups, because they will not get any skillups. :(

I'm curious why SE doesn't do this too. Oblivion's leveling was broken in many ways due to it having the 'exp by action' system, and almost all of the user mods alleviate that balancing problem. Even Fallout 3 fixed it by making the system work.
However, SE has no experience with this type of system. It can get messy and exploitable very easily, so we all have to hope SE knows how to balance it
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#19 Sep 13 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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DirectorCobbs wrote:

I'm curious why SE doesn't do this too. Oblivion's leveling was broken in many ways due to it having the 'exp by action' system, and almost all of the user mods alleviate that balancing problem. Even Fallout 3 fixed it by making the system work.
However, SE has no experience with this type of system. It can get messy and exploitable very easily, so we all have to hope SE knows how to balance it


I too don't understand why SE decided on this approach. Both DoL/DoH gets their skill points whenever they attempt doing things related to their discipline (this applies to failing to craft or to gather as well). Why does DoW/DoM have it that the skill points are based on whether you are lucky enough to get it from your hits?
#20 Sep 13 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Verax606 wrote:

If I hit a mob with a weathered spear, I have a chance to get a range of Lancer XP. This is not based on damage how much damage I do per hit. If I hit a mob for 20, it's the same range of XP as when I hit it for 650. So if I am trying to level my class, I want to do the least amount of damage per swing, with the most swings possible in order to get the most chances at skillups. That is a problem.


That reminds all too much of FFII. Let's just hope we don't end up having the ability to attack our party members to level our VIT stat...
#21Ggrab, Posted: Sep 13 2010 at 4:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) first you need to think outside the box and forget about the whole "class" system cuz there isnt one in FFXIV , it just weapon skills you master
#22 Sep 13 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
There wouldnt be penalties if it were that simple. Or even classes
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#23 Sep 13 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Ggrab wrote:
first you need to think outside the box and forget about the whole "class" system cuz there isnt one in FFXIV , it just weapon skills you master


Call it what you will - If the best way to unlock new skills is to solo mobs with the worst weapon, spamming the lowest damage ability in the game, that is a problem. The system should reward me for using better skills and being more active in combat, not punish me. I should be rewarded for crafting a higher level weapon, not punished. This really needs to get fixed imo. :(
#24 Sep 13 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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First off, it is based on damage partially. I have tested and noticed, that harder hitting attacks, grant more skill points. The issue is in the "chance" of skill, often times using those hard hits you don't get *any* then you don't get *any* from the mob.

I too, do not like this system, because effectively we can kill a mob and not progress. Yes we always get experience, but physical level does not determine where I quest at or what I can kill, rank does. You do not go into the second camp until rank 8 or so, regardless of your level. One character had such bad "luck" that after the first 5 guild leves, I wasn't even rank 3, this really shouldn't happen. I shouldn't be "hoping" every mob I kill that it will give me decent points for progressing my character.
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#25 Sep 13 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Default
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Verax606 wrote:
So, here is my experience in the game as relates to class XP.

If I hit a mob with a weathered spear, I have a chance to get a range of Lancer XP. This is not based on damage how much damage I do per hit. If I hit a mob for 20, it's the same range of XP as when I hit it for 650. So if I am trying to level my class, I want to do the least amount of damage per swing, with the most swings possible in order to get the most chances at skillups. That is a problem.

Next, I get a bronze spear and figure that I'm going to do some serious damage! So, I notice I still get the same range of skillups. So, the mob dies faster, but my class XP suffers because I have less chance at skillups because I swing less times due doing more damage per swing.

So, in order to level, I have no incentive to upgrade my weapon, and I have no incentive to use any of my abilities. In order to most efficiently level, I need to spam my 1 key over and over my entire career... That seems very flawed.


With better gears and more skills, you're able to kill higher level mobs which give you more xp. When your class rank is 10 and using a rank 1 weapon and wearing rank 1 gears, you can easily kill level 5 or 6 mobs (blue) non stop, or kill one level 10 mob (green) and rest. But if you have a rank 10 weapon and rank 10 gears, you maybe able to kill level 12 mobs (orange) fairly easy and may even be able to kill a level 15 (red) mob. The xp you get from an orange mob vs a blue mob could be a big difference.
#26 Sep 13 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Silverwyrm wrote:
First off, it is based on damage partially. I have tested and noticed, that harder hitting attacks, grant more skill points. The issue is in the "chance" of skill, often times using those hard hits you don't get *any* then you don't get *any* from the mob.


That seems very much at odds with my testing. With 70+ of the same mobs, my hits ranged from 80 to 650, and I would see a range of class XP from 20 to 148. At times, my 80-100 damage hits would get 140+ XP, and at times, my 650 damage hits would get 20-50 class XP.

I saw absolutely no pattern to it. It seemed completely random.

I used an upgraded weapon, and saw 20% damage increase. The range of XP stayed the same.

I tried buffing and healing my party, and saw no class XP. (This part I have not exhaustively tested, would love if someone who primarily plays a buff/heal style to chime in)
#27 Sep 13 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

With better gears and more skills, you're able to kill higher level mobs which give you more xp. When your class rank is 10 and using a rank 1 weapon and wearing rank 1 gears, you can easily kill level 5 or 6 mobs (blue) non stop, or kill one level 10 mob (green) and rest. But if you have a rank 10 weapon and rank 10 gears, you maybe able to kill level 12 mobs (orange) fairly easy and may even be able to kill a level 15 (red) mob. The xp you get from an orange mob vs a blue mob could be a big difference.


good point here, our equip in beta is terrible with the poor economy system. Assuming something is done to remedy that (*cough* search?) it could be a very helpful factor. I still think the system needs some tweaking though.
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#28 Sep 13 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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dunlag wrote:
With better gears and more skills, you're able to kill higher level mobs which give you more xp. When your class rank is 10 and using a rank 1 weapon and wearing rank 1 gears, you can easily kill level 5 or 6 mobs (blue) non stop, or kill one level 10 mob (green) and rest. But if you have a rank 10 weapon and rank 10 gears, you maybe able to kill level 12 mobs (orange) fairly easy and may even be able to kill a level 15 (red) mob. The xp you get from an orange mob vs a blue mob could be a big difference.


From my experience, soloing orange mobs is not efficient at all, primarily due to the extreme downtime after the fight. So far, grinding green mobs with the best armor, worst weapon and skill you have is the best class XP that I have seen. I'm really hoping I'm wrong here, but from the testing I've done; I don't think I am. :(

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 7:07pm by Verax606

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 7:09pm by Verax606
#29 Sep 13 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Verax606 wrote:

From my experience, soloing orange mobs is not efficient at all, primarily due to the extreme downtime after the fight. So far, grinding green mobs with the best armor, worst weapon and skill you have is the best class XP that I have seen. I'm really hoping I'm wrong here, but from the testing I've done; I don't think I am. :(

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 7:07pm by Verax606

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 7:09pm by Verax606


Honestly, I'd never able to solo an orange mob because I'm still wearing my rank 1 gears, but I would "assume" things will work out that way. I tried to party with 3 other players the other night, and we're just killing orange mobs here and there, running around the map, it was a really fun experience. We never stopped once to rest or anything, and the xp is so much more than solo the same mobs over and over.
#30 Sep 13 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
Which 'orange' mobs are you guys talking about? I've heard this mentioned before.
All I see are blue, green, and red-paw enemies
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#31 Sep 13 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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DirectorCobbs wrote:
Which 'orange' mobs are you guys talking about? I've heard this mentioned before.
All I see are blue, green, and red-paw enemies


Which I was rank 12 (or 13), I would see some "Lone Wolf" and "Angler" as orange, now that I'm rank 14, most of them became green and blue to me.
#32 Sep 13 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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dunlag wrote:
Honestly, I'd never able to solo an orange mob because I'm still wearing my rank 1 gears, but I would "assume" things will work out that way. I tried to party with 3 other players the other night, and we're just killing orange mobs here and there, running around the map, it was a really fun experience. We never stopped once to rest or anything, and the xp is so much more than solo the same mobs over and over.


Sadly, I'll completely disagree there. Group XP is horrible currently. Something needs to be done about it. And the fact that if you have a dedicated support person, they won't get any class XP, because they are not damaging the mob, makes the usual party dynamic invalid. Perhaps that means that players will need to readjust thinking, and no one will be able to play a support role, or perhaps a change is needed. That being said however, the party XP seems just plain broken currently. Killing a mob that conned orange to me with a group of 3 turns that mob into a green con when in a small party. The risk in killing that mob is VERY high, the reward is the same as if I solo killed a green mob with no danger, and no downtime afterwards.

That's not the part I wanted to focus on as part of this thread however, as there are other threads on the group XP problems.
#33 Sep 13 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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DirectorCobbs wrote:
Which 'orange' mobs are you guys talking about? I've heard this mentioned before.
All I see are blue, green, and red-paw enemies


Depends on your level. It will be an orange shield icon. It's in between red and green in difficulty.
#34 Sep 13 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Default
OH nevermind I've been playing on my low level altoholic characters for too long i forgot about that XD
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#35 Sep 13 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is another thing that irks me. I am at 14/21 conjurer and able to finally solo dodo's decently but they just aren't worth as much as I thought they would be. My repertoire consists of me buffing with shock spikes then spamming spirit dart until I can attempt a Radiance. At which point I rinse repeat until the mob is dead with a cure in between. Not very exciting, I barely use my spells because I can get off 2 or more spirit darts in the time I cast 1 spell and it gets resisted a lot even with about 45 piety. These are all green dodo's and range in p.exp300-450 and class exp 0-300(rare to get high end). However, now that it is 10k exp for the next level I think its time for group play.

As others have said above the risk vs the rewards is just not there. Unless you are putting out damage then you aren't going to get anything. I am optimistic it will get fixed but its definitely not ready for group play at this point.

#36 Sep 13 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for your info Ruby. Can I ask you a couple questions, as I don't play a caster? :)

Shock spikes has a damage component as well as a stun, correct? Do you have the chance to get XP when it goes off? If not, using spikes will be a detriment to class levelling. :(
#37 Sep 13 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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The shock spikes do not give skill but I found it much easier to land the Radiance weaponskill when the mob is stunned. Yeah ss has a damage component and stun(every other hit).
#38 Sep 13 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah they could do away with the rank point system and remove the physical level and revert to FFXI system. it would have been so much better. The only change would be gear->change job rather than moogle house-> job
#39 Sep 13 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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Certain mob ain't worth fighting cos their xp to diffculity ratio is bad but they might drop useful loots. Dodo skin is a nice item it sells good (to NPC) and it useful for leathercrafting.

I still dun know wat to think of this system with my lv12/21 conjurer i could do 2 star leve at a lvl 10 camp easily (kill the target mob in 2 hit). I'm not sure if thats becos my stats from lvl21 physical or the mob are too easy?
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#40 Sep 14 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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This is a very odd way at looking on how to get class xp. More attacks does create more opportunities to get class xp, but why does that lead you to think you have to do less damage per mob? Try fighting harder mobs that need more attacks to die. (Its a social game, so how about getting a party together to fight toughs)Or seriously, if you find a good camp, wouldn't faster kills also create the opportunity to hit more mobs creating more xp?
I think you are looking at your xp per mob rather than xp per timeframe.... Ok if you like seeing big numbers at the end of killing a mob solo, yes you'll have to do weaker attacks. But by no means do you HAVE to kill mobs slowly to gain decent xp
#41 Sep 14 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Pontipy wrote:
This is a very odd way at looking on how to get class xp. More attacks does create more opportunities to get class xp, but why does that lead you to think you have to do less damage per mob? Try fighting harder mobs that need more attacks to die. (Its a social game, so how about getting a party together to fight toughs)Or seriously, if you find a good camp, wouldn't faster kills also create the opportunity to hit more mobs creating more xp?
I think you are looking at your xp per mob rather than xp per timeframe.... Ok if you like seeing big numbers at the end of killing a mob solo, yes you'll have to do weaker attacks. But by no means do you HAVE to kill mobs slowly to gain decent xp


That's the problem. That would be my first thought too, and it would seem logical. The game does not work like that though. We are penalized for grouping. The group XP is really terrible currently. Coupled with the fact that you don't get XP for healing and debuffing, the game is not group friendly right now for power gamers. I still group every chance I can with my Linkshell mates, but it's sad that the mechanics in an MMO discourage that.

As far as fighting higher level mobs, that's not the way to go either. The risk and downtime associated with an orange con mob is too great. It's far more efficient to grind on greens. I think you should log in and play around with it a little to experience the system yourself. It's really quite backwards from any other MMO I've played.
#42 Sep 14 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
Verax606 wrote:
Pontipy wrote:
This is a very odd way at looking on how to get class xp. More attacks does create more opportunities to get class xp, but why does that lead you to think you have to do less damage per mob? Try fighting harder mobs that need more attacks to die. (Its a social game, so how about getting a party together to fight toughs)Or seriously, if you find a good camp, wouldn't faster kills also create the opportunity to hit more mobs creating more xp?
I think you are looking at your xp per mob rather than xp per timeframe.... Ok if you like seeing big numbers at the end of killing a mob solo, yes you'll have to do weaker attacks. But by no means do you HAVE to kill mobs slowly to gain decent xp


That's the problem. That would be my first thought too, and it would seem logical. The game does not work like that though. We are penalized for grouping. The group XP is really terrible currently. Coupled with the fact that you don't get XP for healing and debuffing, the game is not group friendly right now for power gamers. I still group every chance I can with my Linkshell mates, but it's sad that the mechanics in an MMO discourage that.

As far as fighting higher level mobs, that's not the way to go either. The risk and downtime associated with an orange con mob is too great. It's far more efficient to grind on greens. I think you should log in and play around with it a little to experience the system yourself. It's really quite backwards from any other MMO I've played.


It's more a mob tuning issue than a group xp issue. And lets not forget while we're trying to analyze performance as though we're all at the level cap that we're basically playing around at roughly the same point in progression as characters in the Dunes in XI. If you were to take a look at what players could do in the Dunes compared to, for example, Boyahda Tree, you soon realize that greater diversity in available skills makes certain things more approachable.

I did spend some time in 3-4 person groups grinding when all of our leves were done and the xp/kill seemed low. All we could find to safely kill were Dodos at the time (players in party were rank 6-10). Anything "easier" than Dodos weren't worth fighting because the fights ended so quickly nobody had time to earn very many skillpoints, and anything "harder" than Dodos resulted in much downtime (if not runs back from the nearest Aetheryte node).

That's the trouble with trying to balance group content and solo content in the same open world areas. In other games, the group content is found in instances or very distinct areas of the open world. The mobs are marked to indicate suitability for groups vs. solo players (ie. elite). From there, it becomes easier to tune mobs and it becomes much easier for players to differentiate between mobs they should be able to handle on their own and mobs they might want to leave alone. XI has none of this. They have mobs, and while SE tried to come up with a dynamic con system that changes based on the size of your group (and/or the size of the monster's group), its effectiveness right now is highly questionable. There's not much point to a system that tells you that because you're in a group of three, that red crab is now green because when you go to poke the crab with your whacker stick and it turns around and belts you for more than your maximum HP, you're not going to survive as a group. Part of it is a learning curve, part of it is an MMO developer that still doesn't quite know how to tune things to be challenging without being punishing.
#43 Sep 14 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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One possible explanation is that they hugely boosted solo exp temporarily for the beta, but left party exp alone.
This would mean that perhaps at launch, solo exp will be WORSE than the current 'bad' party exp being reported.

/dread launch day update notes. "Experience granted by monsters has been adjusted"

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 11:28am by RattyBatty
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#44 Sep 14 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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That's the problem. That would be my first thought too, and it would seem logical. The game does not work like that though. We are penalized for grouping. The group XP is really terrible currently. Coupled with the fact that you don't get XP for healing and debuffing, the game is not group friendly right now for power gamers. I still group every chance I can with my Linkshell mates, but it's sad that the mechanics in an MMO discourage that.

As far as fighting higher level mobs, that's not the way to go either. The risk and downtime associated with an orange con mob is too great. It's far more efficient to grind on greens. I think you should log in and play around with it a little to experience the system yourself. It's really quite backwards from any other MMO I've played.


FYI I have played since B2, and admittedly I thought exactly as you do at first. Now, after many tweaks and patches, the xp has improved.. Since I play as a conjurer I can tell you that YOU DO get xp for healing now, just not for healing yourself. And I have to imagine that your groups arent necessarily balanced correctly, meaning you dont necessarily have the correct group make-up. (In groups I've noticed that only gladiator can decently hold any kind of hate, and to heal without killing the healer its nice to have a thaum and con sharing the work) Furthermore, I suspect that the tough you are fighting are either nannygoats or billygoats, these mobs are seriously overpowered atm. Explore a little more, find leeches or jellyfish that con orange... you'll have an easier time.
#45 Sep 14 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Verax606 wrote:


That's the problem. That would be my first thought too, and it would seem logical. The game does not work like that though. We are penalized for grouping. The group XP is really terrible currently.


This is totally not my experience. I've gotten waaaay better exp grouping. Yeah if you keep killing marmots with two lvl 8 people - it will be bad. If you start killing dodos and puks and the like - not so.

However duoing is what I was doing so maybe just duoing gives good exp...

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 10:02am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#46 Sep 14 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Pontipy wrote:
FYI I have played since B2, and admittedly I thought exactly as you do at first. Now, after many tweaks and patches, the xp has improved.. Since I play as a conjurer I can tell you that YOU DO get xp for healing now, just not for healing yourself. And I have to imagine that your groups arent necessarily balanced correctly, meaning you dont necessarily have the correct group make-up. (In groups I've noticed that only gladiator can decently hold any kind of hate, and to heal without killing the healer its nice to have a thaum and con sharing the work) Furthermore, I suspect that the tough you are fighting are either nannygoats or billygoats, these mobs are seriously overpowered atm. Explore a little more, find leeches or jellyfish that con orange... you'll have an easier time.


Yes, I'm sure my party makeup did need work. I'll totally agree on that. But be that as it may, I'd like to get back to the original topic. The XP system for classes is a poor design. No matter if you are solo, or in a perfect group, you will get more skillups by spamming you "1" key, than using your abilities. You will get more skillups by using a worse weapon than a better one. That just seems wrong. Maybe I just need to look at this as a more casual game, and need to just accept that poor players and good players will gain the same amount of XP, but it just seems like the system is rewarding laziness. :(
#47 Sep 14 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
I just don't think that is true - I've gotten fairly even exp for killing a mob quickly vs. slowly as long as it is not too far below me.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#48 Sep 14 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I just don't think that is true - I've gotten fairly even exp for killing a mob quickly vs. slowly as long as it is not too far below me.


Take a look at it yourself. try 10 fights each way - spamming 1 the whole fight, versus trying to do the most damage. There does not seem to be a correlation between the amount of damage you do, versus the XP gained per hit. Like I said in the OP, for a 650pt hit, I can get 20xp, and for a 20pt hit, I can get 150xp.
#49 Sep 14 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Take a look at it yourself. try 10 fights each way - spamming 1 the whole fight, versus trying to do the most damage. There does not seem to be a correlation between the amount of damage you do, versus the XP gained per hit. Like I said in the OP, for a 650pt hit, I can get 20xp, and for a 20pt


And again, your talking about xp per mob rather than xp per time frame. You need to see how much xp you get per a certain time frame with your spamming the 1 key vs uber attack but killing lots of mobs.

This is an old argument from early FFXI days. Xp over time vs Xp per mob....
#50 Sep 14 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Pontipy wrote:
[quote]And again, your talking about xp per mob rather than xp per time frame. You need to see how much xp you get per a certain time frame with your spamming the 1 key vs uber attack but killing lots of mobs.

This is an old argument from early FFXI days. Xp over time vs Xp per mob....


That's easy math. I hit one mob 20 times and get 20 chances of skillups, versus killing 1 mob with 10 hits, and 10 chances for skillups, finding another mob, running to it, and doing it again.

If you are after class XP, it's MUCH more efficient in the first model. You will not get as much physical XP, but you get much more class XP. I've done it, and that's why I made this post; as I don't like that system.
#51 Sep 14 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Verax606 wrote:
Pontipy wrote:
FYI I have played since B2, and admittedly I thought exactly as you do at first. Now, after many tweaks and patches, the xp has improved.. Since I play as a conjurer I can tell you that YOU DO get xp for healing now, just not for healing yourself. And I have to imagine that your groups arent necessarily balanced correctly, meaning you dont necessarily have the correct group make-up. (In groups I've noticed that only gladiator can decently hold any kind of hate, and to heal without killing the healer its nice to have a thaum and con sharing the work) Furthermore, I suspect that the tough you are fighting are either nannygoats or billygoats, these mobs are seriously overpowered atm. Explore a little more, find leeches or jellyfish that con orange... you'll have an easier time.


Yes, I'm sure my party makeup did need work. I'll totally agree on that. But be that as it may, I'd like to get back to the original topic. The XP system for classes is a poor design. No matter if you are solo, or in a perfect group, you will get more skillups by spamming you "1" key, than using your abilities. You will get more skillups by using a worse weapon than a better one. That just seems wrong. Maybe I just need to look at this as a more casual game, and need to just accept that poor players and good players will gain the same amount of XP, but it just seems like the system is rewarding laziness. :(


Laziness? Really?

Best skillups while solo come from mobs that are fairly dangerous to fight, not standing around like a twit with a crappy weapon whacking away at a mediocre mob thinking that more hits over time yields more skillups so you're being brilliant when really you're just being lame. Skill points in XIV work very, very similar to weapon skillups in XI. There's a window for each skill range relative the level of mobs you can fight to get the most frequent skillups possible. If your skill level is too high, the skillups come very slowly. If your skill level is too low, the skillups come fairly quickly on a per hit basis, but you miss an awful lot so it seems that they come more slowly. That's operating in ranges outside the window. Within that window, where you're around the same level as the mobs, you're hitting fairly often and you're in the sweet spot for maximum skillups/hit.

It's the same in XIV. Skillups come slowly (and for lesser amounts) when you are fighting mobs considerably below your rank. Beyond a certain point, fighting mobs roughly equivalent to your rank can become difficult to do solo. But if you group to try and kill those same mobs, now you're splitting what would have been great skillups for one person with a larger number of people. So if you want to group and you want optimal skillups you need to push a little harder and fight mobs that are a challenge for your group to fight, not chump easy for your group but suddenly worth fighting because at least you can kill the mobs without dying like you would on your own.

That means that for solo skillups, your best bet is to get the best weapon you can find to reduce the risk of dying while fighting more challenging mobs (because you've got a better chance of killing them before they kill you) and fly at it. You'll land fewer hits/mob than you would if you tried to cheese out by using a lower potency weapon, but in the end it balances out.

The goal is to play the game, and part of the reward in doing so is that your character progresses. If fun in the game for you is exploiting every opportunity to level/skill up as fast as you possibly can, good for you. Just please don't think for even half a second that your superficial focus in conjunction with your general ignorance is justification for things to change.

Adjusting mob tuning? I'm all for it. Changing the base system for skillups and xp at this point? No.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 2:08pm by Aurelius
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