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class XP system - complete rework needed?Follow

#52 Sep 14 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea, no.

True, you will get more xp per monster fighting harder stuff. But you will level FASTER fighting rather pathetic monsters in bulk. So long as you don't run out of critters to pound on, the easy monsters are your meal ticket to quick efficient leveling.
Your eyes may bleed and your brain will begin to melt, it is not terribly fun, but grinding the weak is the way to go when solo
#53 Sep 14 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
Mareko wrote:
Yea, no.

True, you will get more xp per monster fighting harder stuff. But you will level FASTER fighting rather pathetic monsters in bulk. So long as you don't run out of critters to pound on, the easy monsters are your meal ticket to quick efficient leveling.
Your eyes may bleed and your brain will begin to melt, it is not terribly fun, but grinding the weak is the way to go when solo


That's not universally true. I'm at a stage now with my gladiator where everything is either way, way to easy (very few skillups, and on the rare occasion I DO see one, I'm lucky if it's 50 points worth), or every fight is a win/lose gamble. You guys don't seem to be seeing the big picture. The issue is not that the skillup system is broken, the issue is that SE is all over the place with the mob tuning. They're still stuck in the XI mindset that says there should be mobs that are way overpowered relative to their rank because it adds interest to the game. When all you're trying to do is find entertaining fights that provide reasonable progression, learning through trial and error that you have extremely few viable alternatives does not provide for consistent entertainment.
#54 Sep 14 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:


Laziness? Really?

Best skillups while solo come from mobs that are fairly dangerous to fight, not standing around like a twit with a crappy weapon whacking away at a mediocre mob thinking that more hits over time yields more skillups so you're being brilliant when really you're just being lame. Skill points in XIV work very, very similar to weapon skillups in XI. There's a window for each skill range relative the level of mobs you can fight to get the most frequent skillups possible. If your skill level is too high, the skillups come very slowly. If your skill level is too low, the skillups come fairly quickly on a per hit basis, but you miss an awful lot so it seems that they come more slowly. That's operating in ranges outside the window. Within that window, where you're around the same level as the mobs, you're hitting fairly often and you're in the sweet spot for maximum skillups/hit.

It's the same in XIV. Skillups come slowly (and for lesser amounts) when you are fighting mobs considerably below your rank. Beyond a certain point, fighting mobs roughly equivalent to your rank can become difficult to do solo. But if you group to try and kill those same mobs, now you're splitting what would have been great skillups for one person with a larger number of people. So if you want to group and you want optimal skillups you need to push a little harder and fight mobs that are a challenge for your group to fight, not chump easy for your group but suddenly worth fighting because at least you can kill the mobs without dying like you would on your own.

That means that for solo skillups, your best bet is to get the best weapon you can find to reduce the risk of dying while fighting more challenging mobs (because you've got a better chance of killing them before they kill you) and fly at it. You'll land fewer hits/mob than you would if you tried to cheese out by using a lower potency weapon, but in the end it balances out.

The goal is to play the game, and part of the reward in doing so is that your character progresses. If fun in the game for you is exploiting every opportunity to level/skill up as fast as you possibly can, good for you. Just please don't think for even half a second that your superficial focus in conjunction with your general ignorance is justification for things to change.

Adjusting mob tuning? I'm all for it. Changing the base system for skillups and xp at this point? No.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 2:08pm by Aurelius


This. Rate up to the max. I agree completely.
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#55 Sep 14 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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I felt i got the best skillup xp while fighting higher greens (couldnt check actual level in relation to me, but harder ones). I havent fought anything harder, I'm pretty sure though that XP/swing is better on tougher things.
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#56 Sep 14 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Just please don't think for even half a second that your superficial focus in conjunction with your general ignorance is justification for things to change.
Edited, Sep 14th 2010 2:08pm by Aurelius


I don't want to get into a flame war, and I'm sorry that you have decided to degenerate this topic into that. You are taking this in a direction that was unintended. I apologize if I pointed out what I believe to be a flaw in a game we are playing, and that it has wounded you so grievously.

The point of my post was to point out what I believe is a problem, if everyone else thinks it's a great design, that's just fine. <shrug> Your post above still disregards the base problem, as mob level is completely irrelevant to the equation.

The one thing that I had not considered before was how this plays in with the fatigue system. That will require some thought and testing after release, but it would appear to mitigate this in some regard.

Anyhow, I've said my piece and I apologize that I ruffled your feathers.
#57 Sep 14 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Verax606 wrote:
Pontipy wrote:
FYI I have played since B2, and admittedly I thought exactly as you do at first. Now, after many tweaks and patches, the xp has improved.. Since I play as a conjurer I can tell you that YOU DO get xp for healing now, just not for healing yourself. And I have to imagine that your groups arent necessarily balanced correctly, meaning you dont necessarily have the correct group make-up. (In groups I've noticed that only gladiator can decently hold any kind of hate, and to heal without killing the healer its nice to have a thaum and con sharing the work) Furthermore, I suspect that the tough you are fighting are either nannygoats or billygoats, these mobs are seriously overpowered atm. Explore a little more, find leeches or jellyfish that con orange... you'll have an easier time.


Yes, I'm sure my party makeup did need work. I'll totally agree on that. But be that as it may, I'd like to get back to the original topic. The XP system for classes is a poor design. No matter if you are solo, or in a perfect group, you will get more skillups by spamming you "1" key, than using your abilities. You will get more skillups by using a worse weapon than a better one. That just seems wrong. Maybe I just need to look at this as a more casual game, and need to just accept that poor players and good players will gain the same amount of XP, but it just seems like the system is rewarding laziness. :(


Laziness? Really?

Best skillups while solo come from mobs that are fairly dangerous to fight, not standing around like a twit with a crappy weapon whacking away at a mediocre mob thinking that more hits over time yields more skillups so you're being brilliant when really you're just being lame. Skill points in XIV work very, very similar to weapon skillups in XI. There's a window for each skill range relative the level of mobs you can fight to get the most frequent skillups possible. If your skill level is too high, the skillups come very slowly. If your skill level is too low, the skillups come fairly quickly on a per hit basis, but you miss an awful lot so it seems that they come more slowly. That's operating in ranges outside the window. Within that window, where you're around the same level as the mobs, you're hitting fairly often and you're in the sweet spot for maximum skillups/hit.

It's the same in XIV. Skillups come slowly (and for lesser amounts) when you are fighting mobs considerably below your rank. Beyond a certain point, fighting mobs roughly equivalent to your rank can become difficult to do solo. But if you group to try and kill those same mobs, now you're splitting what would have been great skillups for one person with a larger number of people. So if you want to group and you want optimal skillups you need to push a little harder and fight mobs that are a challenge for your group to fight, not chump easy for your group but suddenly worth fighting because at least you can kill the mobs without dying like you would on your own.

That means that for solo skillups, your best bet is to get the best weapon you can find to reduce the risk of dying while fighting more challenging mobs (because you've got a better chance of killing them before they kill you) and fly at it. You'll land fewer hits/mob than you would if you tried to cheese out by using a lower potency weapon, but in the end it balances out.

The goal is to play the game, and part of the reward in doing so is that your character progresses. If fun in the game for you is exploiting every opportunity to level/skill up as fast as you possibly can, good for you. Just please don't think for even half a second that your superficial focus in conjunction with your general ignorance is justification for things to change.

Adjusting mob tuning? I'm all for it. Changing the base system for skillups and xp at this point? No.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 2:08pm by Aurelius


^ This. You're meant to work for your xp - not grind on blues for hours on end.
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#58 Sep 14 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Papanurf wrote:


^ This. You're meant to work for your xp - not grind on blues for hours on end.


That's what I want. I want to have to group and work for the best XP. Sadly, when you see an orange mob that you can't solo, and invite 2 friends to the group to kill it, it turns unto a blue mob, and you get horrible XP for a fight that you barely survive. I miss XI where grouping was the best XP in game BY FAR. Now, I am glad that XIV is a little more solo friendly, but it seems that it's too far. In an MMO, I want to group and adventure, and that's what I'll do on release, I just wish that it was compensated as well as a solo green grinder mashing the 1 button. =/
#59 Sep 14 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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I must confess that I actually disagree with Aurelius for once.

Both in closed and open beta, I ground conj to 12+, and in open I purely ground thaum to 20 in two separate sessions (1-17 - fatigue break - 17-20). I must admit I find the magic missile spam the most efficient skill/hour.

From what I can tell, skill gain (in terms of numbers) is calculated based upon the type of move (auto attack, tp move, spell, etc) and the difference in rank between you and the monster. Damage did not play a role, and the random number generator for deciding if you should get skill seemed constant. So per successful hit, your chance of skill up seemed to be constant, but the amount gained could vary with the mob. Fighting a harder mob, as a result, relied on attempting to kill it faster and throwing all your eggs in the random number generator basket. The numbers are bigger, sure, but with mp breaks, downtime, buffs/healing which grant no skill, it just isn't as efficient as spamming 'magic missile'

Someone mentioned above you have to account for total skill over a set duration as the basis for comparison and not individual fights. I completely agree. Quick, easy fights with now downtime and 50-250 skill per kill (retardedly random, if you ask me) adds up so dizzyingly quick, fighting harder mobs, or doing stronger moves, really can't compare.

Ff11 colibri, anyone? There's a reason why people chose weaker exp with fast kills over harder fights with better exp. In the long run, no downtime and reliable skill ups is unmatched.

I want to party and do fancy moves, and nuke and all that. But until something changes, forming a party and fighting the hardest mobs you can while using the weakest moves seems the way to go.
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#60 Sep 14 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
Ridere wrote:
I must confess that I actually disagree with Aurelius for once.

Both in closed and open beta, I ground conj to 12+, and in open I purely ground thaum to 20 in two separate sessions (1-17 - fatigue break - 17-20). I must admit I find the magic missile spam the most efficient skill/hour.


My point is that the system isn't ideal, but not for the reasons people here are stating. The game hasn't even hit store shelves yet and people are already getting up tight and whiny over what "optimum" involves. Why not just play the game? Why not do things because the process is fun, instead of forcing yourself into a process that you don't find fun in the name of the outcome? I'm trying really hard not to make a snide remark about the general attitude of the XI community but some people might be shocked to hear that if the game itself is really fun most of the time, you'll tend to not give a sh*t about skill points or xp/hour. You'll be playing the game and having fun and, "Oh hey! I just gained a rank/physical level lol!" (That's exactly what happened to me...twice...while I was messing around with my crafting over the last few days.

You know what I do when I take a combat class out into the field lately? I kill stuff for their drops. I'm to the point now where Star Marmots no longer drop shards so they're off the list. So I spend an extra few minutes to find the juicy Thistletails and spank them around for a while and I get my shards and my meats and my pelts and my moko grass and all that good stuff. And while I'm doing that, I'm exploring a bit here and there. I like to poke around in caves I haven't been to before just to see what might be in them.

And with my experiences in the open beta in conjunction with SE's announcements at the prelive event today, I've finally decided to head down to my local Gamestop tomorrow and see if I can't still manage a CE pre-order. And whether I can get a CE or I have to wait for a copy off the shelf on or after the 30th, I already know how I'm going to spend my first several hours/days of playtime in the game, and it has jack to do with hurry hurry rush rush progress as fast as I can.

SE was smart to ensure that skillups aren't based on the damage that you do because if it was, the entire dynamic of grouping would change. Certain classes would have a very clearly defined edge over others. It would just be a bad scene all around with your healers and your tanks on the bottom end of the Progress-o-Meter and your heavy hitters loling themselves all the way to the cap.

The game is set to go live in one week and one day. We're already seeing people well beyond rank 20 with at least one class in an OB that has only been running for a couple of weeks. Three months from now when the rush rush hurry naoz people are capped with one class and heading back to start on their second or third, I'm going to be having fun. And you know what I'm not going to be doing? ******** because the optimal way to manipulate the progression system doesn't make sense to me or isn't particularly fun.


Edited, Sep 14th 2010 7:42pm by Aurelius
#61 Sep 14 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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This is very true and sad. SE is a good company, but sometimes they just dont get it.

It was sad for my buddy who plays Conj. Id end up (As Mrd) with like 500+ points after a good fight. He will get like 150 cause he wasnt spam clicking a generic attack like me. There needs to be a scale for damage and battle contribution. Without his Stone Wall, Spikes, and heals, id of been toast. But due to this trash system currently in, the game treats me like the hero and rewards me thus so. So I just laugh awkwardly at my buddy and pull another monster.

They need to rethink how they do the rank XP and quick. I hear release is coming right around the corner and this will really stiffle the support classes being played.

#62 Sep 14 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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Conjurer exp has been fixed.

In a pty, healing other pty members earns significant exp. This was not always the case (certainly not before Open Beta) and I am not sure when it was fixed but this makes a huge difference.

Throwing in a few heals, a few nukes to finish a battle and spamming the "1" key the rest of the time saw me levelling up just as fast as the glad tank!

edited to make sense!

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:10am by HallieXIV
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#63 Sep 14 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:
Conjurer exp has been fixed.

In a pty, healing other pty members earns significant exp. This was not always the case (certainly not before Open Beta) and I am not sure when it was fixed but this makes a huge difference.

Throwing in a few heals, a few nukes to finish a battle and spamming the "1" key the rest of the time saw me levelling up just as fast as the glad tank!

edited to make sense!

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:10am by HallieXIV


Yeah I made decent XP doing level30 leves tonight in a pt, died a few times for casting aoe CureII, but had fun nonetheless. It was so chaotic I didn't catch how much was exp from healing and how much was my attacks, but I definitely noticed some skillups just from curing. So it's getting there, maybe some more tweaking needed...
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#64 Sep 14 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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This game seems to be going the same way as FFXI.

Best to solo until 12-15. Then best to group beyond that.

Some will love that, some will hate it. I will be online on 22 September in Australia (being 15 hours ahead of the US and 9 hours ahead of Europe) and will be loving it. You can probably tell which side of this fence I sit on!
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#65 Sep 14 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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Just posted a possible solution to uneven Skill Point rewards in party of melee/mages.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1284529222242897406&page=1
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